#151 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4701 posts) -

@depecheload said:

@fourwude said:

OK people to stop all this shit, I will take one for the team. I will shag Anita Sarkeesian, if she's up for it.

We need to end this now. And like a royal family, marrying for political pressure to end years of bitter rivalry, I will give her a good old rogering. If she's up for it.

And then let that be the end of that.

THIS WOMAN IS UPSET ABOUT SEXISM THAT DOESN'T EXIST SO I'M GOING TO RESPOND TO HER WITH BY SAYING SOMETHING HORRIBLY SEXIST THAT REINFORCES EVERYTHING SHE SAYS.

Good job fucko.

#152 Posted by LikeaSsur (1510 posts) -

This video wasn't as well done as the first. As soon as she strays from just the facts (Which she did very well in part 1), she begins assuming way too much, like saying the only reason these women are in distress are the SOLE motivation for the male character, and the ONLY reason you have to use violence against said women is to mask (or even trick the player to approve of) domestic violence.

And then she has the gall to link games like Ghosts 'n' Goblins, The Darkness II, and Pandora's Tower to actual domestic violence? Please. She also reaches pretty far to say that violence being the only "meaningful mechanic" is somehow emphasized when you're forced to kill your wife/girlfriend.

Whatever, this is the Sarkeesian we're all used to. The whistle-blowing, over-dramatic, spin doctor who points out every "problem," but never offers a solution.

#153 Posted by bananaz (256 posts) -

@darji said:

@salarn said:
@darji said:

I bet almost no one would argure that these tropes are over used plot devices. Of course they are. People are creating stories since they can talk and of course every form will be used over and over again. The point I do not support is that these tropes are misogynistic and sexist and try to victimize women and make her look weak and objectify them

Being captured, traded as a prize, and being incapable of saving one's self. That doesn't make the person look weak or objectified?

No it does not. Each men and each women are differently strong and for a good vs evil trope or hero saves the princess trope to work you need such a part in your story. Evil is always represent as very powerful in the beginning just so you a certain level of progression. The Main character grows strong enough to defeat the evil. Also again rescuing the women you love your the sister you care for is not because you objectify her but because you care for this person. These story wants to create a feel of empathy not of objectification.

The story can't really make you empathize with a prisoner when you have super-powers and beat skulls in with extreme prejudice. Yes, you want to save her, but who is she exactly? She is mysterious to you as a person. You're only really told how she slots into your life. You don't really know her, or see her perspective, so empathy is kept from you. Objectification doesn't have to be sexual. A generic girlfriend or generic daughter fills the hole your character has in his life, generally a sense of mastery over one's life. The impulse to save the girl isn't the problem. It's that she's basically made of cardboard and has no story other than to be a pawn used to control you in your story. A plot device. That would also apply to dude-sels in distress. What this creates, when you get the plot device back, is a "romance" based on your love being powerless and you being the master of power. At least I think that's what's going on.

#154 Posted by oraknabo (1457 posts) -

I see nothing controversial in the main points she makes in either of these videos, I just wish she'd stay away from words like "pernicious" and "insidious" and talk about ridiculous shit like "patriarchal expectations". That's when I start to tune out in the same way I do when I hear conservatives going on about socialist plots or the "multicultural agenda" or have someone who seems reasonable start talking about creationism or conspiracy theories.

#155 Edited by Disaya (289 posts) -

@darji Thanks for posting this video, I've only watched around ten minutes so far but it seems like it'll be good and interesting.

As for the video, it was ok, a few eye roll moments for me but eh. I was hoping that the next video would be a new topic instead of a third part to this damsel in distress series.

#156 Edited by LackingSaint (1786 posts) -

Still seems like the vast majority of the points she's making might as well be about Non-Player Characters, rather than Women in games. Like how the female characters never get to save the day in the end; yeah, that's the player's job, because it's a videogame.

Overall though this is just more "hey look at all these examples from Wikipedia" totally inoffensive fluff that only serves to reinforce a point that anyone with a sane mind has already agreed with. It's probably a good thing it exists? I guess there are some people out there that don't realise that there are more male heroes than female heroes in videogames, and this is incredibly enlightening to them.

Oh, has Anita noticed that most of her "Your wife's spirit is trapped and you must free her" examples are basically all about using the wife as a symbol of peace and purity, rather than trying to turn the woman into a reward? They're mostly angelic, intangible figures in long white gowns. The point isn't that they are Damsels In Distress, it's that it's the contrast of beauty and kindness that the protagonist is searching for.

#157 Edited by Deranged (1837 posts) -

The video was well done, I'll give her that. I don't really have any problems with anything she's addressing and it's good that someone is actually trying to bring some of these problems to light, but honestly, I'd rather see her encourage women who are interested in writing, video games or media to improve upon the involvement and portrayal of women rather than simply criticize games from the past that have utilized these "tropes".

Don't really understand the hate either.

#158 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@bananaz said:

@darji said:

@salarn said:
@darji said:

I bet almost no one would argure that these tropes are over used plot devices. Of course they are. People are creating stories since they can talk and of course every form will be used over and over again. The point I do not support is that these tropes are misogynistic and sexist and try to victimize women and make her look weak and objectify them

Being captured, traded as a prize, and being incapable of saving one's self. That doesn't make the person look weak or objectified?

No it does not. Each men and each women are differently strong and for a good vs evil trope or hero saves the princess trope to work you need such a part in your story. Evil is always represent as very powerful in the beginning just so you a certain level of progression. The Main character grows strong enough to defeat the evil. Also again rescuing the women you love your the sister you care for is not because you objectify her but because you care for this person. These story wants to create a feel of empathy not of objectification.

The story can't really make you empathize with a prisoner when you have super-powers and beat skulls in with extreme prejudice. Yes, you want to save her, but who is she exactly? She is mysterious to you as a person. You're only really told how she slots into your life. You don't really know her, or see her perspective, so empathy is kept from you. Objectification doesn't have to be sexual. A generic girlfriend or generic daughter fills the hole your character has in his life, generally a sense of mastery over one's life. The impulse to save the girl isn't the problem. It's that she's basically made of cardboard and has no story other than to be a pawn used to control you in your story. A plot device. That would also apply to dude-sels in distress. What this creates, when you get the plot device back, is a "romance" based on your love being powerless and you being the master of power. At least I think that's what's going on.

But that is then just bad storytelling but not sexist. If they do not intensify your relationships or your feeling for each other. As I said before in another thread we are still very very early on the whole storytelling aspect in video games But stuff like Shadow of the damned where you start of is not sexist or objectifying her but rather A intentional to get this B movie trash feeling what that game certainly wants to be or be it is bad story telling.

@disaya:It is and if you have time for the whole thing (I know its pretty long) you should watch it^^

#159 Posted by Fistfulofmetal (683 posts) -

There's quite a few examples shown in this video that are completely out of context and do nothing but hurt her argument.

#160 Posted by Freshbandito (678 posts) -

@animasta said:

@kishinfoulux said:

@ottoman673 said:

...and was subsequently delisted by Youtube for violating ToS.

Anyone get a chance to see it? Any idea why it was taken down? Anita was quick to blame her "harassers" but I'm certain Youtube is a bit more discretionary than that..

LMAO. YESSSSSSSS!!! Awesome news.

it didn't actually violate the ToS, it was just reported a bunch of times by people like you

(it's back now)

Sorry but I would never give her hits, even to report it. Glad that others took care of it for me though. And what do you mean people like you? You mean as opposed to a moron who slobbers over her every idiotic word?

He means 'someone like you' as opposed to someone who can be strong and confident enough to have the discussion about sexism in videogames and discuss whether certain arguments are flawed, someone who is strong and confident enough in their belief that she's right / wrong to let her voice be heard and then voice their opinion back in a mature way and let people weigh the merits of all sides impartially rather than the people who comment on things like this screaming "haha! ddos the bitch! deface her videos, she needs fucking to thaw her out, yeah rape, kill, masculinity woo!" and prove her point better than any video series ever could.

She's just one of many faces representing feminism, whether a good one or bad one is up for debate, as a man posting in discussions about her arguments will represent we males. Everytime one of these men step up to their keyboard and decide that her voicing her opinion is so disgusting and threatening to their manhood that they have to spew vitriol and wish ill fortune upon her we look like even more of a stereotypical caveman afraid that women being heard will take away the mystical power of our penis.

By all means disagree with her, I disagree with the way she presents her arguments, but I'll be damned if I'll ever be so threatened as a male to have to attack a woman personally just because of her stance on the patriarchy. Be kind to all people whether they share your views or not.

#161 Posted by Twinsunian (34 posts) -

I really wish people would stop getting bothered (or pretending to) by such stupid things.

Why can't we all just enjoy video games?

#162 Edited by sam1am7000 (99 posts) -

I disagree with her view on quite a few of the examples she uses, but I don't see why people should be "harassing" her for it. She has a right to expressing her views however right or wrong they may be.

#163 Posted by FunkasaurasRex (847 posts) -

Why did I open this thread. I knew what was going to happen.

#164 Posted by Nicked (247 posts) -

I found the video inoffensive and well-argued. It's hardly inflammatory and I don't know why it upsets so many people. To me she seems to be pretty objective and is clear about acknowledging that playing videogames doesn't magically turn people into misogynists. It was interesting to hear at the end that she will do a video on "Dudes in Distress". I'm not sure exactly what that entails, but I think it gets lost on some people that "women's rights" (for lack of a better term; I know this is a bad phrase to use) and "men's rights" aren't mutually exclusive. The ole "she's got big tits? well he has big muscles!" argument, which doesn't make sense because both or these things can be understood as problems of representation, or at the very least patterns of representation.

Maybe I didn't explain that very well, sorry!

#165 Edited by Jeffsekai (7027 posts) -

Video Gamessssssssssssssssssssssssss

#166 Edited by jakob187 (21663 posts) -

She uses The Darkness II as an example of "damsel in the fridge," but does she know that Jenny ends up becoming Angelus and thus becoming as empowered as the male protagonist?

She uses Alan Wake, but does she realize that the ending has Alan being the "damsel in distress" and his wife being the one who is free?

Also, since when is love, an intangible emotion, such a bad fucking thing? It's like this chick seriously thinks that love is just bullshit. Since when is mercy, an intangible act of human compassion, such a bad fucking thing? Oh, because you only want to point out the times when it happens to women.

Fuck this shit. Bunch of biased bullshit.

#167 Posted by GreggD (4487 posts) -

@buft said:

I can't stop looking at her eyebrows, not sure why.

Her eyebrows look painted on and cartoonish. At least, that's the way I see them.

#168 Edited by TyCobb (1966 posts) -

@jakob187 said:

She uses The Darkness II as an example of "damsel in the fridge," but does she know that Jenny ends up becoming Angelus and thus becoming as empowered as the male protagonist?

She uses Alan Wake, but does she realize that the ending has Alan being the "damsel in distress" and his wife being the one who is free?

Also, since when is love, an intangible emotion, such a bad fucking thing? It's like this chick seriously thinks that love is just bullshit. Since when is mercy, an intangible act of human compassion, such a bad fucking thing? Oh, because you only want to point out the times when it happens to women.

Fuck this shit. Bunch of biased bullshit.

**whisper voice** Shhh. You can't try to reason -- you will be called a sexist.

**cough cough** Yep. She made a video.

#169 Posted by Animasta (14671 posts) -

@jakob187:thanks for telling me about the ending of alan wake, especially like 4 days after the humble alan wake bundle

jerk

#170 Edited by AngelN7 (2970 posts) -

Why can't we all just enjoy video games?

FUCK! video games

#172 Edited by DarthOrange (3858 posts) -

Is she really wearing the same outfit? Didn't she make an ass ton of money? I'm sure no one would mind if she used some of that money to buy some new clothes........

#173 Edited by Archer88 (131 posts) -
@darji said:

· Kane & Lunch: Dead Men (2007)

#174 Posted by wjb (1655 posts) -

@archer88 said:
@darji said:

· Kane & Lunch: Dead Men (2007)

I saw that earlier and was literally about to post the same thing until I got distracted and forgot all about it. Thank you.

#175 Posted by Archer88 (131 posts) -

So, I actually watched it before making a comment.

I think she makes some good points, but she's still getting into the habit of cherry picking examples or creatively describing the events in games in order to fit her agenda. Take the Girl in a Fridge section where she points to Max Payne as an example. Yes, Max does go undercover in an effort to disrupt the drug scene in New York because of the part it played in his wife's death, but the Alex Baldur's death is what drives his revenge for a good portion of the game. It isn't until much later where the connections to his wife are actually made.

I think she's stretching a little bit when she makes the connections to domestic violence and women being treated as possessions. She also seem to be inconsistent with regards to game mechanics and how they affect these tropes. She brings them up when discussing violence towards women (the main way a player interacts with most games is through violence), but fails to when stating a damsel's death is more important than her life (pacing of a game could be impacted if events were shifted to allow for more pre-damsel development).

Also, her little comedy moment when discussing Bionic Commando was cringe worthy. Boo-urns.

Those criticisms aside I look forward to the next vid.

#176 Posted by Flacracker (1652 posts) -

So does she actually analyze anything this time or does she just spew information out her ass from wikipedia?

#177 Edited by JasonR86 (9657 posts) -

So does she actually analyze anything this time or does she just spew information out her ass from wikipedia?

Maybe you should watch it?

#178 Edited by Clonedzero (4200 posts) -

I really dont understand why people hate her so much, i just watched the 2nd video, its fine.

Sure, she cherry picks and leaves alot of stuff out of situations, but still.

They're not bad videos and she's not really wrong. I mean I dont give a shit, I only watched the video cus i was curious what the hubbub was all about. People are getting overly defensive. Her not wanting women to be portrayed as victims all the time is not a bad thing for anyone. Whats the big deal? Who cares?

Though i will say her max payne 3 example is a bit dumb cus i love that game he's fucking up the entire game. failing at every task given to him, he's supposed to, he's the fallguy. So of course everyone he's paid to protect gets killed. She didnt mention that dude getting burned in the tires, she only pointed out the other person he's supposed to protect, the chick. But both die in horrible ways. Hell i'd rather be shot in the head then be burnt alive in a pile of tires, but thats me

I mean if people weren't so automatically offended by her, I think they'd like it. Its not a bad video series. Yes she totally cherry picks situations and doesn't explain them fully.

#179 Posted by probablytuna (3610 posts) -

Talks about games trying to act mature, shows a clip of Shadows of the Damned immediately after. Yeah, good luck with that.

#180 Posted by McGhee (6094 posts) -

Or one could look through the same lens from the other side and complain about males being portrayed in games as hulking and comical meathead caricatures whose only real purpose is to fight and slave on behalf of protecting the beautiful and wholesome female that has been kidnapped by other evil masculine forces. Masculinity as a force for evil, perhaps sexual, desire or as a tool for the woman's rescue, the male is still being portrayed as nothing more than a tool to serve at the woman's protection.

I must admit that seeing a male character shrug and walk the other way when seeing a damsel in distress in a game would be more than a little bit hilarious.

#181 Posted by JasonR86 (9657 posts) -

I'm not a big fan of her prior work. However, in this particular series she completely addressed everything I had an issue with with her previous work. The structure of the films are well paced. She gives information and then analyzes that information from her perspective. What people seem to forget with these videos is that this is simply her offering her perspective through her eyes and it is up to the audience to decide what to do with that information.

I suppose throwing fits is as appropriate as blindly praising her for every word she says. But, in both examples, try to make sure that what you didn't like wasn't addressed in the video by her and is actually reasonable. She goes above and beyond in the video to explain her take on the matters she addresses and why she's come to the conclusions she's reached. For example, she explains that she understands that the examples she pulled are out of context and that there are story bits, character development, and so on that she isn't addressing. But she also explained that though those things are true she also finds it hard to over look the constant use of the tropes she sees and that context is hard to keep in mind when you see the same thing over and over again.

I don't get why people just hate her so goddamn much. But everyone is free to their opinion. That said, try not to be lazy and throw out comments without having seen her videos and taken her view and mulled it over in your mind. Also, if you don't agree with her, explain why her analysis was wrong. Don't just yell equivalents to "SEXIST BULLSHIT!" over and over again. If anything, she should be applauded for developing this conversation. Don't let it go to waste through ignorance, snap judgments, and ill placed temper tantrums.

#182 Edited by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

lol feminism and white knights

#183 Edited by Bismarck (430 posts) -

I disagree with her videos, her opinion, I think she's trying too hard and over reacting. Also i bet she hasnt played all of the games she shows. I guess she reads a script that someone wrote. Last episode she said there werent any Zelda games where Zelda is the main character which aint true.

#184 Posted by DarthOrange (3858 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

I'm not a big fan of her prior work. However, in this particular series she completely addressed everything I had an issue with with her previous work. The structure of the films are well paced. She gives information and then analyzes that information from her perspective. What people seem to forget with these videos is that this is simply her offering her perspective through her eyes and it is up to the audience to decide what to do with that information.

I suppose throwing fits is as appropriate as blindly praising her for every word she says. But, in both examples, try to make sure that what you didn't like wasn't addressed in the video by her and is actually reasonable. She goes above and beyond in the video to explain her take on the matters she addresses and why she's come to the conclusions she's reached. For example, she explains that she understands that the examples she pulled are out of context and that there are story bits, character development, and so on that she isn't addressing. But she also explained that though those things are true she also finds it hard to over look the constant use of the tropes she sees and that context is hard to keep in mind when you see the same thing over and over again.

I don't get why people just hate her so goddamn much. But everyone is free to their opinion. That said, try not to be lazy and throw out comments without having seen her videos and taken her view and mulled it over in your mind. Also, if you don't agree with her, explain why her analysis was wrong. Don't just yell equivalents to "SEXIST BULLSHIT!" over and over again. If anything, she should be applauded for developing this conversation. Don't let it go to waste through ignorance, snap judgments, and ill placed temper tantrums.

Get your head out her ass, those fecal fumes are affecting the synapses in your brain making you speak nonsense.

#185 Posted by JasonR86 (9657 posts) -

@darthorange:

Oh God! How did I get shit fumes in my brain?!?!?!?

#186 Posted by InsaneGenis (96 posts) -

I need to make a tropes vs male sexism in sitcoms. Produce about 3 videos, make $200,000 and sit back and uncomfortably relax in this twisted sexist world.

#187 Edited by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

Not because of the video, I've learned not to care. It's the thread that's gonna be a huge shit show.

#188 Edited by Bismarck (430 posts) -

I need to make a tropes vs male sexism in sitcoms. Produce about 3 videos, make $200,000 and sit back and uncomfortably relax in this twisted sexist world.

I'd back you up with 5$

#189 Posted by McGhee (6094 posts) -

I need to make a tropes vs male sexism in sitcoms. Produce about 3 videos, make $200,000 and sit back and uncomfortably relax in this twisted sexist world.

First episode: Tim "The Toolman" Taylor.

#190 Posted by DarthOrange (3858 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@darthorange:

Oh God! How did I get shit fumes in my brain?!?!?!?

Well you see vaporized odor molecules (shit fumes) floating in the air of her anus reached your nostrils and dissolved in the mucus (which is on the roof of each nostril). Underneath the mucus, in the olfactory epithelium, specialized receptor cells called olfactory receptor neurons detected the odor. The olfactory receptor neurons transmitted the information to the olfactory bulbs, which are located at the back of the nose.The olfactory bulbs has sensory receptors that are actually part of the brain which then sent messages directly to “higher” centers where they modified your conscious thought (neo-cortex) and made you speak stupidity.

#191 Edited by JasonR86 (9657 posts) -
#192 Posted by McGhee (6094 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@darthorange:

Ohhh. Fucking science man! Shit's crazy!!!

Sheeiiiit, you done been schooled, son!

#193 Edited by joshth (504 posts) -

I just have no idea how to feel about any of this. I strongly disagree with almost all of her opinions on this subject, but I also think that these "haters" and "harassers" are just making it all worse. This is just making me hate everyone.

#194 Edited by NekuSakuraba (7240 posts) -

Oh man, I just got Borderlands 2 spoiled for me! Damn.

#195 Edited by LibrorumProhibitorum (346 posts) -

She actually used Child of Eden as an example of female depowerment. Okay. Pretty much every example of female depowerment is present in every other story telling medium. It's just a traditional trope storytellers try to change up and add little twists to, it's not depowerment, sexist, or a message from the creator. Yeah, sure you can definitely say it's lazy and unoriginal, but all tropes are unoriginal by definition.

Though let's completely ignore what emotional flaws this trope allows artists to express with male characters, let's all just treat the damsel in distress trope as an all-round bad thing. Men showing emotion, weakness, empathy, or anything really isn't at all a problem, right? When it comes down to it, even though as I (and she) said this trope is present in all mediums, but you could just boil this whole "problem" down to people just not understanding how to properly write and pace video games. Video games are objective based. You need to "win". That doesn't make women an object of desire or anything, people just want to beat the damn game. The victory message of "hey you got the girl" is nothing more than a way of saying "hey you beat the game" and if that's a problem well I hope your mother didn't read you fairy tales or bed time stories when you were younger because holy shit.

#196 Posted by Superkenon (1416 posts) -

I don't agree with where she's coming from, and I think her sensationalism is detracting from the real problems of sexism. At best she's targeting a symptom, rather than the actual illness, and offering no answer at that. In general, you're more likely to solve a problem by encouraging good behavior, rather than dwelling forever on the bad.

But her critics would be served to take that into consideration as well. I'll reiterate that I don't agree with her, but the backlash against her pieces is just shameful. There's nothing wrong with vocally disagreeing with her, but when you take it that step-too-far into that realm of obsessive hatred and childish name-calling, you're not only doing your own argument a great disservice, you're making us all look like monsters -- and essentially, grants validity to her point.

Don't make her right, guys.

#197 Posted by JoeyRavn (4964 posts) -

I read the comments on this thread. I should have known better. I'm disappointed, Giant Bomb, but I admit it's my fault.

#198 Posted by LibrorumProhibitorum (346 posts) -

Her video, overall, basically boils down to "if [this] happens to a woman, I don't like it." but it's perfectly acceptable, or recommended even, to happen to a male.

#199 Posted by MAGZine (437 posts) -

Same with sexuality. You can't walk up to a game studio and say "We're mad because your game has sexualized females", because sexualized females aren't the real problem. The real problem is when every female character is conventionally attractive and most of them are sex objects. (And on the flip side, men are almost NEVER allowed to be sexualized unless it's a joke, since anything that could be considered "teh gay" might scare off the lucrative teen boy demographic. I think homophobia is inextricably tied to sexism, but that's another argument.)

Wait, men are never sexualized?

Why aren't there more combover, beer-gutted dads saving the day? Or hackers with acne and hair done in a ponytail? Or even normal people like me? Men in video games are almost always muscular, which is how one would sexualize masculine figures.

#200 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@archer88 said:

So, I actually watched it before making a comment.

I think she makes some good points, but she's still getting into the habit of cherry picking examples or creatively describing the events in games in order to fit her agenda. Take the Girl in a Fridge section where she points to Max Payne as an example. Yes, Max does go undercover in an effort to disrupt the drug scene in New York because of the part it played in his wife's death, but the Alex Baldur's death is what drives his revenge for a good portion of the game. It isn't until much later where the connections to his wife are actually made.

I think she's stretching a little bit when she makes the connections to domestic violence and women being treated as possessions. She also seem to be inconsistent with regards to game mechanics and how they affect these tropes. She brings them up when discussing violence towards women (the main way a player interacts with most games is through violence), but fails to when stating a damsel's death is more important than her life (pacing of a game could be impacted if events were shifted to allow for more pre-damsel development).

Also, her little comedy moment when discussing Bionic Commando was cringe worthy. Boo-urns.

Those criticisms aside I look forward to the next vid.

The really "funny" thing is that domestic violence in the UK for example is almost splitt between woman and men.

More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

Max Payne is really a bad example is it not only of of the best stories in gaming history but also they killed his family for a reason which is explained very well in the whole story. Max Paynes life is so totally fucked up that you must really be a fool and call any of this sexist or that this game victimizes women. It is an excellent told story.