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#1 Edited by Metal_Mills (2980 posts) -
 http://www.rahulsood.com/2010/07/console-gamers-get-killed-against-pc.html
 
Average PC gamers were so good for even the best Xbox gamers they couldn't do crossplatforming. I can see this being true. I always find console gaming way easier.  Seems like a real dick reason to screw over PC gamers though. Couldn't they say PC has to use a controller to play crossplatform or something?

 Microsoft Killed a Killer Project


I never thought I would be more disappointed in the industry then when Microsoft killed Ensemble Studios. ..however nothing surprises me anymore :)


Rumor has it that there was a project many many months ago at Microsoft that was under wraps. The goal was to bridge XBOX gamers with PC Gamers so they could play against one another in games like Unreal, or Gears of War. This was all part of their Live strategy, and had Microsoft just stuck to their guns and made it work PC Gaming might be in a much better position than it is today.


Not to say that PC Gaming is in a bad position, but it's not like it used to be. The PC is shifting, as I've said many times over the last couple of years. The need for multiple high performance graphics cards is all but dead. You can play any PC Game on an HP Envy at high resolution with high detail, for example. PCs are becoming more mobile, form factors are shifting, touch is being embraced as well as other technologies. The word "PC" is dead, but the concept of personal computing isn't. ..but this isn't the point.


There was a project that got killed at Microsoft. This project was designed to allow console gamers and PC gamers to interact and battle over a connected environment. Personally I wish it would have stayed the course. I've heard from reliable sources that during the development they brought together the best console gamers to play mediocre PC gamers at the same game... and guess what happened? They pitted console gamers with their "console" controller, against PC gamers with their keyboard and mouse.


The console players got destroyed every time. So much so that it would be embarrassing to the XBOX team in general had Microsoft launched this initiative. Is this why the project was killed Who knows, but I'd love to hear from anyone involved --- what happened?



Those of us who have been in the gaming business for over a decade know the real deal. You simply don't get the same level of detail or control as you do with a PC over a console. It's a real shame that Microsoft killed this -- because had they kept it alive it might have actually increased the desire of game developers and gamers alike to continue developing and playing rich experiences on the PC which would trickle down to the console as it has in the past.


Instead they wanted to keep an old business model alive, and as a result they are (all) getting attacked by the most unlikely competitor.. Apple.


..had they allowed something like this to take place then perhaps the desire to have the best platform would still be there. Perhaps the scale of the PC would have allowed Microsoft to get away from the hardware business and focus on their core, software. Perhaps we could have finally integrated the XBOX into the PC...


Perhaps not, all of this is over now, there is no looking back.


The Future of Game Development


Game developers follow the money. This isn't a labor of love.


Yes, this industry has changed. While not all the big publishers are struggling to keep up with their growth, most are. The "app machine" allows little companies develop great content from their basements and remain incredibly profitable. Remember GOD Games (Gathering of Developers)? Seems like the concept was way ahead of its time.


While gaming seems to be shifting away from large rich productions to independent app developers and less immersive titles, the audience is growing. More people are playing games. The sad thing is these people don't know what they're missing.


There is light at the end of the tunnel though. If developers can start taking advantage of *all* the hardware on our devices and build compelling titles that get the user excited - they will be featured - and you will likely become very rich very quickly.


Hardware is becoming smaller, lighter, portable, and more feature rich. The content is become less detailed, but the experience involves multiple senses. The audience for games has never been larger. ...but only the great titles will stand out in a soon to be highly competitive environment.


So I'm calling out to all game developers. It's time you followed the money and looked to the future. Opportunity is in scale. Web OS will have tremendous scale and reach.


You might even think about developing titles exclusively for Web OS in the future, but for now perhaps you should look at taking some of your best titles - and don't think port - think about taking full advantage of our hardware, cameras, sensors, etc. The possibilities are endless - and while it may take time for new devices to start showing up, you can rest assured that the wait will be worth it.


I guess what I'm saying is rather than trying to stand out in a store with millions of apps in front of you, it's probably a good time to get in while the getting is good on the ground floor. Feel free to contact me personally for the right contact within Palm.
 

#2 Posted by CrazyContrero (84 posts) -

I think i remember hearing that Shadowrun basically gave xbox gamers mad aim assists and handicapped PC gamers look speed etc. 
PC gamers are on a league of their own, they shouldn't bother pitting both against each other.
how about xbox v playstation gamers? that could work if the developer had seperate servers right??

#3 Posted by Jeknod (228 posts) -

Terrible writing. 

#4 Posted by Andrela (621 posts) -

A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week. 
 
This will never change.

#5 Posted by JeffGoldblum (3695 posts) -
@Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
Only in first person shooters.
#6 Posted by eroticfishcake (7782 posts) -
@JeffGoldblum said:
" @Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
Only in first person shooters. "
And strategy games.
#7 Posted by Korwin (2814 posts) -
@JeffGoldblum:
And RTS, and gameroom titles that used to use a track ball :D
#8 Posted by TheBeast (1931 posts) -

I've seen this in almost every games news outlet but I just don't understand how it's supposed to be news... of course the reason they killed it off was because of the difference in controllers/skillsets. What the hell else would it be?

#9 Posted by Korwin (2814 posts) -
@TheBeast:
Puppy cancer.
#10 Posted by MooseyMcMan (10375 posts) -
@Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
While this is true, I know that I always hate using a keyboard for gaming. But that's just me.  
 
And I remember there being a PS3 controller where the right stick was replaced with a mouse, and there was a Wii-nunchuck styled thingy for movement and stuff. The best of both, I say.
Online
#11 Edited by HitmanAgent47 (8576 posts) -

It's true about the skill, pc gamers are very accurate, too accurate if you played counter strike source. It's not pray and spray, it's all headshots, to a point where it's almost unfair. Besides I always see microsoft as a company who tries to canabalize their own pc market trying to turn them into xbox360 owners with games for windows live and stuff, unsucessfully. They also stole like almost every big pc developer. I don't think microsoft likes pc gaming and they don't know what to do with it because they can't convert all pc gamers to their console. There will be no cross platform multiplayer, that's not their strategy because it's not profitable to them imo.  

#12 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -
@Fragstoff said:
" @MooseyMcMan said:
" @Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
While this is true, I know that I always hate using a keyboard for gaming. But that's just me.   And I remember there being a PS3 controller where the right stick was replaced with a mouse, and there was a Wii-nunchuck styled thingy for movement and stuff. The best of both, I say. "
 
you're right, it is just you 

@JeffGoldblum said:

" @Andrela said:

" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "

Only in first person shooters. "
and RTS, and 3rd person action, and rpg...pretty much everything but racing and fighting games "
What about action adventure games?  
 
Or sports games? :p
#13 Posted by LtColJaxson (1137 posts) -

Eh I can imagine that. To be honest I think each should stay to his own platform.
 
As long as a PC game is released on Steam for me, then it is usually popular enough to play online with many others. The PC gaming community also has less prepubescent foul mouthed children screaming into microphones, so I really like this. 
 
Like someone else said it would be better to pit PS3 vs. 360 players together, although I doubt this will ever happen.

#14 Posted by SuperSambo (2849 posts) -

You make this seem that it is because PC gamers are better, when it is because they have a mouse and keyboard while console gamers have a controller...

#15 Posted by Mr_Skeleton (5135 posts) -
@JeffGoldblum said:
" @Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
Only in first person shooters. "

And RPG's and RTS's and third person shooters. Also all the point and click advanture games on consoles suck.
#16 Posted by Dad_Is_A_Zombie (1225 posts) -

Meh... The PC could cure the blind, raise the dead, and turn water in to wine for all I care. When it comes to gaming I like my 360.

#17 Posted by sixghost (1679 posts) -

They did it with Shadowrun. It was a stupid idea.

#18 Posted by Zidd (1836 posts) -

They should just kill the right thumbstick on the 360 controller and replace it with a trackball. Maybe in their next hardware revision? They could release it as the "Xbox Controller Pro"

#19 Posted by Andorski (5173 posts) -

Third person action sucks on KB+M unless it's a third person shooter.  I remember hearing good things about the PC version of Batman: AA, but I thought it was unplayable compared to just plugging in a controller.

#20 Posted by trophyhunter (5800 posts) -

you can shove that mouse and keyboard up your ass

#21 Posted by Semition (731 posts) -

I doubt it.
 
Cross-platform balance should be the last thing a developer needs to worry about.

#22 Posted by rhodric (281 posts) -
@trophyhunter said:
" you can shove that mouse and keyboard up your ass "
lol butt hurt
#23 Edited by trophyhunter (5800 posts) -
@rhodric said:

" @trophyhunter said:

" you can shove that mouse and keyboard up your ass "
lol butt hurt "
A controller is a million times better, I don't care what you PC fanboys say.
#24 Edited by Insectecutor (1176 posts) -

Live has decent matchmaking systems designed to pair up players of equivalent skill. I'm pretty sure that system would still work the same way regardless of platform so I'm skeptical of this article and its "reliable sources".
 
Assuming the article was true and console gamers do suck (hurr!), a PC gamer who consistently blows away console gamers would be less likely to get paired up with those guys in future if the matchmaking was effective.

#25 Posted by newt (92 posts) -
@Insectecutor said:
" Live has decent matchmaking systems designed to pair up players of equivalent skill. I'm pretty sure that system would still work the same way regardless of platform so I'm skeptical of this article and its "reliable sources".  Assuming the article was true and console gamers do suck (hurr!), a PC gamer who consistently blows away console gamers would be less likely to get paired up with those guys in future if the matchmaking was effective. "
Keep your matchmaking and laggy ad-hoc games.  I'll stick to my low-latency servers where no-one gets 'host advantage'.  I'll also keep my sense of community and getting to know regulars.
#26 Posted by august (3825 posts) -
@Insectecutor: It's not the skill of the person behind the controls, it's the disparity in the potential for accuracy between the two input devices. I'm pretty sure console players would be pretty perturbed to see the entire top tier dominated by pc players, which would be the inevitable result of ranked cross-platform play.
#27 Edited by WilliamRLBaker (4777 posts) -
@Andrela said:

" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "

in fps, and rts oh and click adventures...but pretty much nothing else.
 
@ TC
its not really a matter of skill its all controller vs kb+m.
 
KB+M great in rts, fps, and a few others. but suck in racing, fighters, platformers...ect
 
Controller good in fps, rts, a few others, and amazing in all others.
KB+M is specialized for a few games where as controller will play most games good or great there is little a controller does badly at.
#28 Posted by fuzzyponken (694 posts) -
@Zidd said:
" They should just kill the right thumbstick on the 360 controller and replace it with a trackball. Maybe in their next hardware revision? They could release it as the "Xbox Controller Pro" "
Hey, that's not a bad idea. Man, the more I think about it the more awesome it seems. They should totally fucking do that. 
#29 Posted by Agent47CSim2 (1085 posts) -

I can't use a M+KB.  Maybe because I never play PC games because I had a shit computer, but the mouse always sticks and there's too many buttons, so I couldn't care less if they don't have PC, 360 connectivity.

#30 Posted by ajamafalous (11813 posts) -

This isn't news to anyone.

#31 Posted by pwnasaurus (1286 posts) -
@trophyhunter said:
" @rhodric said:

" @trophyhunter said:

" you can shove that mouse and keyboard up your ass "
lol butt hurt "
A controller is a million times better, I don't care what you PC fanboys say. "
hahaha. really? so using a much less sensitive stick to move to an area is much better then using a fast more precise mouse and you just point where you wanna go? trust me i used to own a 360 and yea i thought it was great then i sold it and bought a PC i cant even play on an xbox anymore controls are too bad
#32 Posted by zudthespud (3281 posts) -

Fewer noobs for me to pwn can't be good. 
 
You definitely get better precision with a mouse and keyboard. I'm way better at sniping in Bad Company 2 on the PC than I ever was on the 360.

#33 Posted by Jayzilla (2554 posts) -

there should be laws against primates with access to the internet.

#34 Posted by jediknight00719 (138 posts) -

From the article: 
 
"  Those of us who have been in the gaming business for over a decade know the real deal. You simply don't get the same level of detail or control as you do with a PC over a console. It's a real shame that Microsoft killed this -- because had they kept it alive it might have actually increased the desire of game developers and gamers alike to continue developing and playing rich experiences on the PC which would trickle down to the console as it has in the past." 
 
I just can't accept this.  He is essentially talking about porting to a console and porting never works.  It leads to bad games in whichever direction it goes.  Right now there are soo many PC games which aren't great cause it was ported and i still remember that Mafia was ported to consoles and it wasn't good (but it was great for PC).   
 
Anyway the point is PCs and consoles are different (and within consoles the wii and xbox360/ps3 are different) and developers need to develop games that cater to their strengths and weaknesses, none of this porting crap.

#35 Posted by zudthespud (3281 posts) -
@WilliamRLBaker said:
" @Andrela said:

" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "

in fps, and rts oh and click adventures...but pretty much nothing else.  @ TC its not really a matter of skill its all controller vs kb+m.  KB+M great in rts, fps, and a few others. but suck in racing, fighters, platformers...ect  Controller good in fps, rts, a few others, and amazing in all others. KB+M is specialized for a few games where as controller will play most games good or great there is little a controller does badly at. "
As well as my keyboard and mouse, I have a Logitech G25 Steering wheel for racing games and a wireless 360 pad for games that work better with that than with a Keyboard and mouse. So far the only games I have really used the pad for have been Gears of War, because I already had hundreds of hours in the 360 version and didn't want to have to change my habits, and Dead Space because the mouse lag in that game is insane. 
 
Point being: PC gamers can use a gamepad when it is necessary, but it isn't that often... for me at least.
#36 Posted by LordRupertEverton (94 posts) -

i would like to see how i compare MW2 with consoles. seeing as how i suck at it.

#37 Posted by Gutlieb (87 posts) -
@eroticfishcake said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" @Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
Only in first person shooters. "
And strategy games. "
And rpg's
#38 Edited by joachimo (200 posts) -

I'm a hardcore pc gamer, but that doesn't stop me from owning all the next-gen consoles to date - and most of the earlier consoles. I guess I just like the variation between the different styles, its like a fresh challange for a gaming enthusiast. Yet I dont really feel screwed over as a pc gamer though, we have plenty of good games, and most of those tripple a titles are very popular wich calls for a very cozy and tight community.

#39 Posted by Pinworm45 (4088 posts) -

#40 Posted by Bobdaman18 (700 posts) -
@Pinworm45:
nailed it
#41 Edited by NoXious (1338 posts) -

I like my Keyboard + Mouse and X360 Wired Controller just fine.Thank god my PC is capable of using both!
And thank god my PC doesn't deny me the satisfaction of owning home consoles. Who would want to miss out on RDR!

#42 Posted by Binman88 (3684 posts) -
@zudthespud said:
" @WilliamRLBaker said:
" @Andrela said:

" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "

in fps, and rts oh and click adventures...but pretty much nothing else.  @ TC its not really a matter of skill its all controller vs kb+m.  KB+M great in rts, fps, and a few others. but suck in racing, fighters, platformers...ect  Controller good in fps, rts, a few others, and amazing in all others. KB+M is specialized for a few games where as controller will play most games good or great there is little a controller does badly at. "
As well as my keyboard and mouse, I have a Logitech G25 Steering wheel for racing games and a wireless 360 pad for games that work better with that than with a Keyboard and mouse. So far the only games I have really used the pad for have been Gears of War, because I already had hundreds of hours in the 360 version and didn't want to have to change my habits, and Dead Space because the mouse lag in that game is insane.  Point being: PC gamers can use a gamepad when it is necessary, but it isn't that often... for me at least. "
This ^, and also, I find it much easier to play 3rd person shooters with the mouse and keyboard. Games like Resident Evil, Mass Effect, and Red Faction. Really, the only games I play with a controller are racing games.
#43 Posted by Jimbo (9769 posts) -

You could do it, but to get the balance right would require totally destroying one or both of the games.  You'd either have to give the pad user total auto-aim covering the whole screen, or you'd have to somehow force the mouse user to play the game using their feet.  Neither of these options would be fun.
 
A straight competition between the two control options would be a joke for anything involving aiming.  First person, third person, makes no difference.  Anybody that believes otherwise is only kidding themselves.  They could do it for sports, fighting games, racing games or anything turn-based I suppose, but none of those seem to be popular enough across both platforms to warrant it.  
 
I don't really see why the console manufacturers would go out of their way to make this happen in the first place.  They don't want PC gamers and console gamers to play together; they want PC gamers to become console gamers so they can tax their game purchases and shove a load of other 'services' in their face at every opportunity.  They've been pretty successful with it so far and it's about ready to come to fruition.  Console gamers are gonna get bled dry before long, and they've pretty much ensured there is no thriving alternative gaming option available for them to go to.

#44 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@Binman88 said:
" @zudthespud said:
" @WilliamRLBaker said:
" @Andrela said:

" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "

in fps, and rts oh and click adventures...but pretty much nothing else.  @ TC its not really a matter of skill its all controller vs kb+m.  KB+M great in rts, fps, and a few others. but suck in racing, fighters, platformers...ect  Controller good in fps, rts, a few others, and amazing in all others. KB+M is specialized for a few games where as controller will play most games good or great there is little a controller does badly at. "
As well as my keyboard and mouse, I have a Logitech G25 Steering wheel for racing games and a wireless 360 pad for games that work better with that than with a Keyboard and mouse. So far the only games I have really used the pad for have been Gears of War, because I already had hundreds of hours in the 360 version and didn't want to have to change my habits, and Dead Space because the mouse lag in that game is insane.  Point being: PC gamers can use a gamepad when it is necessary, but it isn't that often... for me at least. "
This ^, and also, I find it much easier to play 3rd person shooters with the mouse and keyboard. Games like Resident Evil, Mass Effect, and Red Faction. Really, the only games I play with a controller are racing games. "
Resident Evil 4 didn't even have mouse support. But I suppose you're talking about RE5, right? :P
#45 Posted by Atomic_Tangerine (359 posts) -

This is stupid.  They actually did that sort of stuff with Shadowrun, and nobody liked it on either end. 
 
The other thing is that video games on PCs are doing fine.  It is just that they high-end games with minimum requirments that melt your face aren't there anymore.  Whether you want to believe that is because of the economy, piracy, or something else is up to you.
#46 Posted by Meteora (5787 posts) -

While cross-platform gaming sounds great, its not pragmatic since the controls are too radical to play against each other. The PC gamers would have a upperhand in just about all shooters.

#47 Posted by Insectecutor (1176 posts) -
@newt said:
" @Insectecutor said:
" Live has decent matchmaking systems designed to pair up players of equivalent skill. I'm pretty sure that system would still work the same way regardless of platform so I'm skeptical of this article and its "reliable sources".  Assuming the article was true and console gamers do suck (hurr!), a PC gamer who consistently blows away console gamers would be less likely to get paired up with those guys in future if the matchmaking was effective. "
Keep your matchmaking and laggy ad-hoc games.  I'll stick to my low-latency servers where no-one gets 'host advantage'.  I'll also keep my sense of community and getting to know regulars. "
Can PC gamers not shut up about their fucking dedicated servers? This thread wasn't even about that. My post wasn't about that. Jesus.
#48 Posted by Binman88 (3684 posts) -
@CL60 said:
" @Binman88 said:
" @zudthespud said:
" @WilliamRLBaker said:
" @Andrela said:

" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "

in fps, and rts oh and click adventures...but pretty much nothing else.  @ TC its not really a matter of skill its all controller vs kb+m.  KB+M great in rts, fps, and a few others. but suck in racing, fighters, platformers...ect  Controller good in fps, rts, a few others, and amazing in all others. KB+M is specialized for a few games where as controller will play most games good or great there is little a controller does badly at. "
As well as my keyboard and mouse, I have a Logitech G25 Steering wheel for racing games and a wireless 360 pad for games that work better with that than with a Keyboard and mouse. So far the only games I have really used the pad for have been Gears of War, because I already had hundreds of hours in the 360 version and didn't want to have to change my habits, and Dead Space because the mouse lag in that game is insane.  Point being: PC gamers can use a gamepad when it is necessary, but it isn't that often... for me at least. "
This ^, and also, I find it much easier to play 3rd person shooters with the mouse and keyboard. Games like Resident Evil, Mass Effect, and Red Faction. Really, the only games I play with a controller are racing games. "
Resident Evil 4 didn't even have mouse support. But I suppose you're talking about RE5, right? :P "

lol, yes. I mean when the controls work as they should. Now that you mention it, I couldn't even play RE4 on the PC because of its control scheme.
#49 Posted by Landon (4127 posts) -
@Gutlieb said:
" @eroticfishcake said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" @Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
Only in first person shooters. "
And strategy games. "
And rpg's "
Where are these RPG's that are so much better on the PC? RPG's work on EVERY platform. Stop saying that, its not even true.
#50 Posted by Meteora (5787 posts) -
@Landon said:
" @Gutlieb said:
" @eroticfishcake said:
" @JeffGoldblum said:
" @Andrela said:
" A mouse and keyboard will beat a controller any day of the week.   This will never change. "
Only in first person shooters. "
And strategy games. "
And rpg's "
Where are these RPG's that are so much better on the PC? RPG's work on EVERY platform. Stop saying that, its not even true. "
It depends. Most RPGs work well on every platform, but there are few exceptions. Namely Dragon Age.