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#1 Edited by Manhattan_Project (2119 posts) -

...trying to guilt people into listening. You just "show" them.

Two women discussing their experiences.

This is what I wish GB would do.

Edit: Laser Time is an awesome podcast BTW. You should listen to it.

#2 Posted by laserbolts (5311 posts) -

Nooooooooo!

#3 Posted by JasonR86 (9608 posts) -

Sexism!

#4 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

Sexism! Racism! Bigotry! Oh my!

#5 Posted by Video_Game_King (36012 posts) -
Here's to another thread discussing sexism on Giant Bomb.
#6 Posted by believer258 (11637 posts) -

I might look into it later. At least you're not posting a big fucking wall of text like a modern Martin Luther King, only on the internet and for women's rights.

#7 Posted by Bocam (3671 posts) -

Do they share one cup?

#8 Posted by JasonR86 (9608 posts) -

@Bocam said:

Do they share one cup?

Two girls one sexism.

#9 Posted by Clonedzero (4091 posts) -

pretty sure we're all aware of this by now

#10 Posted by Rolyatkcinmai (2682 posts) -

yawn

#11 Posted by ch3burashka (5009 posts) -

First time I've seen a mention of Lasertime outside of Lasertime. Haven't listened to this episode yet, will do so.

#12 Posted by bushpusherr (762 posts) -

How to begin reversing established gender roles in the games industry: more women indie developers, who don't bother with publishers, focus groups, and all that other bullshit.

Online
#13 Posted by FunkasaurasRex (847 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@Bocam said:

Do they share one cup?

Two girls one sexism.

Two girls? Sounds more like Sexy-ism!

#14 Posted by MorkaiTheWolf (185 posts) -

@Video_Game_King said:

Here's to another thread discussing sexism on Giant Bomb.

^--I second this and will use said image at some later point in time.

#15 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@Bocam said:

Do they share one cup?

Two girls one sexism.

that sounds like a good name for some sort of postmodern porn video

I don't know what this means

BUT WHO CARES

#16 Posted by BestUsernameEver (4825 posts) -

OHSNOSECUSIM.

#17 Posted by JasonR86 (9608 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Bocam said:

Do they share one cup?

Two girls one sexism.

that sounds like a good name for some sort of postmodern porn video

I don't know what this means

BUT WHO CARES

I can only imagine the bad shit that would come from that video.

#18 Posted by FunkasaurasRex (847 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Bocam said:

Do they share one cup?

Two girls one sexism.

that sounds like a good name for some sort of postmodern porn video

I don't know what this means

BUT WHO CARES

I KNOW I DON'T

#19 Posted by MarkWahlberg (4578 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Bocam said:

Do they share one cup?

Two girls one sexism.

that sounds like a good name for some sort of postmodern porn video

I don't know what this means

BUT WHO CARES

I can only imagine the bad shit that would come from that video.

They tag-team on doing sexy business and explaining the sexual politics of the situation as it's being performed, providing historical context, the psychology behind a particular fetish, etc.

And then they shit in each other's mouths.

#20 Posted by Gamer_152 (14051 posts) -

I appreciate the link, but I disagree with the idea that Giant Bomb has been trying to get people to pay attention to the sexism debate by guilt tripping them, and what was Patrick doing in directing attention to the "#1reasonwhy" tag, if not trying to show them the kind of experiences women in the industry were reporting?

Moderator
#21 Posted by Baillie (4039 posts) -

@Gamer_152: What I don't like is that fact that this is made out to be mainly happening in the gaming business. It's not.

#22 Posted by Gamer_152 (14051 posts) -

@Baillie said:

@Gamer_152: What I don't like is that fact that this is made out to be mainly happening in the gaming business. It's not.

Can you point to anywhere where the people trying to take a stand against sexism in games have been saying such a thing? I see a lot of people moaning about "feminism", but if you actually look at the arguments contained with "Feminist works", they're very much about highlighting how sexism is a problem that affects many parts of our culture, and not just one. I don't think anyone is under the impression that sexism is a phenomenon that lives in and only in the games industry, but what we do have to acknowledge, and is something that I see a lot of people trying to snub the sexism debate disregarding, is that no other entertainment industry seems to have this problem to the extent that video games do.

Moderator
#23 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4594 posts) -

@Gamer_152: It's not the content of what Klepek is saying, it's the tone with which he uses it. His writing (and much of his speech, actually) comes across as that one guy trying too hard to impress people by showing how progressive and understanding he is. Think of him as a less aggressive Arthur Gies. He doesn't talk to his readers like intelligent human beings, he talks to his readers like they're barbarians who need to be convinced that this is a cause worth talking about.

But the thing is, most of his readership here does understand that sexism and a laundry list of other "isms" are a problem in today's culture. What they disagree with is being talked down to. Which is what Klepek does.

#24 Edited by Gamer_152 (14051 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon: I disagree, but I think this conversation is the kind of thing that would be better had in the comments sections of Patrick's articles or in a PM, I don't think we need another thread discussing the contents of Patrick's work on top of the two that already exist.

Moderator
#25 Posted by Demoskinos (14562 posts) -

@Gamer_152: I don't know about that... I can't say for fact as I don't have my ear to that scene but I'd be sure willing to bet that young starlets in the movie industry are treated like shit until they land that one big role that breaks them out. I mean no name actress vs Natalie Portman who do you think is more likely to be talked into doing a nude scene? and I've got to imagine its the same in other industries as well. I just don't think any of us here pay as close attention to other goings on behind the scenes like we do with games.

#26 Posted by Marokai (2808 posts) -

I appreciate the link and I'll give it a listen later. The comments there seem incredibly well reasoned, and even when people disagree, the people from the conversation itself seem to understand and be respectful of the disagreement. Which is so goddamn far from what we've been getting here.  
 
@Oldirtybearon: I wish I could like comments, sometimes. I'll settle for following you instead!

#27 Posted by Gamer_152 (14051 posts) -

@Demoskinos: With all due respect Demoskinos, I don't see how you can argue a point like that when you openly admit that you have a lack of knowledge over what you're talking about, and that the circumstances you're talking about are simply what you're imaging. I can't claim to have a deep insider understanding of the movie industry, but I think I have a fair knowledge of entertainment industries, and I just don't think the circumstances we're seeing for women in games ring true across the board. I think far more than other industries, video games are still regarded as a "Guy's space", and I'm just not hearing anywhere near the same stories from other industries that I am from the games industry. Sexism is a generally pervasive problem in all aspects of society, and I don't want to make it seem like I'm disregarding it for a second, but the fact that there are so many prominent women we can name from the film industry (Portman being one of them) is just one piece of evidence that we're not talking about the exact same situation across all industries.

Moderator
#28 Posted by Brodehouse (9587 posts) -
@Demoskinos 'I bet young starlets are treated like shit', but you assume young men are handed a cheque and a pat on the back for just showing up? Absolutely not true. Also, when you say 'get talked into' you imply that women don't have the independence or the agency to make their own decisions or protect even their own bodies, and that producers (I assume you mean 'men') are so competent that they can make women do things against their will with nothing so much as a few words. _That's_ sexism, that's reinforcement of gender roles; women with hypoagency, men capable of anything.

I don't think people get it; sexism is the reinforcement of gender roles, and the assumptions and generalizations that go along with it. It's not just 'things that offend women'. And there are legitimate cases of sexism, some rather minor (lady mistaken for receptionist) that are just a simple 'oops, sorry', some more serious (boss who makes a point of highlighting the presence of 'vaginas', otherwise liberal minded person who forgets no actually means no). But then there are things we list as sexism that are not; hired models used to gather attention at events, girlfriend mode, the inclusion of sexual assault in a video game (which seems funny to flip out about 11 years after Silent Hill 2). And every shitty reimagining of the word only serves to blur the serious cases that need redress.
#29 Posted by RazielCuts (2931 posts) -

Can somebody fill me what 'LaserTime' is? There website tells me absolutely nothing but images everywhere and what's on their Amazon wishlist..

Online
#30 Edited by clstirens (847 posts) -

@RazielCuts: A bunch of old Gamesradar guys that used to run TalkRadar. They made Laser time as each of them began leaving the company (one of them works at Capcom, now). Laser time isn't just about games, though.

@CH3BURASHKA said:

First time I've seen a mention of Lasertime outside of Lasertime. Haven't listened to this episode yet, will do so.

Yeah, it's so weird to me.

Used to be a big TalkRadar listener, then Laser Time happened.

#31 Posted by LikeaSsur (1495 posts) -

@Gamer_152 said:

@Demoskinos: With all due respect Demoskinos.

Yeah, so maybe the movie industry is a little bit more equal than video games, but if you think it's not as bad because we have prominent women actresses, you may want to google stuff more.

Online
#32 Posted by believer258 (11637 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@Gamer_152: I don't know about that... I can't say for fact as I don't have my ear to that scene but I'd be sure willing to bet that young starlets in the movie industry are treated like shit until they land that one big role that breaks them out. I mean no name actress vs Natalie Portman who do you think is more likely to be talked into doing a nude scene? and I've got to imagine its the same in other industries as well. I just don't think any of us here pay as close attention to other goings on behind the scenes like we do with games.

I'm pretty sure some popular and accomplished actresses have been nude in movies before. Can't name any off the top of my head, though.

#33 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@Demoskinos said:

@Gamer_152: I don't know about that... I can't say for fact as I don't have my ear to that scene but I'd be sure willing to bet that young starlets in the movie industry are treated like shit until they land that one big role that breaks them out. I mean no name actress vs Natalie Portman who do you think is more likely to be talked into doing a nude scene? and I've got to imagine its the same in other industries as well. I just don't think any of us here pay as close attention to other goings on behind the scenes like we do with games.

I'm pretty sure some popular and accomplished actresses have been nude in movies before. Can't name any off the top of my head, though.

Jane Fonda, Jodi Foster, Holly Hunter, Jessica Lange, Helen Hunt, Gwyneth Paltrow, Hilary Swank, Halle Berry, Charlize Theron all won Oscars for movies that involved them being in nude scenes.

#34 Edited by Gamer_152 (14051 posts) -

@LikeaSsur: Come on, we don't have to be rude about this, and I feel you're twisting my words, that's not what I said. None the less, I don't think these links really go any way to disproving my point. They suggest problems with gender bias in the TV and film industries, but that's something I openly admitted existed before. I don't think the sexism argument should simply be reduced down to "Which industry has it worse", but unless I'm missing something, the links you're showing me don't really do anything to prove that games are in a better position than these industries in terms of the way women are treated.

Moderator
#35 Edited by LikeaSsur (1495 posts) -

@Gamer_152: That's not why those links are there, and I'm not trying to point out which industry has it worse. You said that you're not hearing such tales of sexism from other industries that you do from the gaming industry, and that because we can name prominent female actresses in the film industry, it's not the same situation. That's what my links are showing, it's a very similar situation. Yes, TV and film have famous actresses, just like games have famous female voice actors, but when it comes to creating the content, (directing, producing, writing), it's still a "guy's space" just like video games.

Online
#36 Posted by Gamer_152 (14051 posts) -

@LikeaSsur: Sorry, perhaps I was unclear. When I said I wasn't hearing the same kinds of tales, I didn't mean I hadn't heard tales of problems with sexism in the movie or TV industry, they most certainly exist, but I don't think they exist on the scale of the ones in the games industry. What I outright didn't say was that just because of the number of female actresses in the movie industry, that it was clearly a different case for women in the industry. Obviously, it's a complicated issue, and I said that the prominent female actresses out there were just one thing that made these cases different. I also disagree with the idea that the famous actresses of TV and film are directly comparable to the "famous" voice actresses within the games industry, I think the former are far more prominent within their industry than the latter. As for work outside of acting, there's a sad shortage of women in both fields, but I don't believe even 16-24% of the designers, programmers, modellers, etc. in the games industry are women.

Moderator
#37 Posted by Jaytow (693 posts) -

Or you let them make their own minds up? I, for one, am glad that we don't have too many females in leading roles, I like things the way they are.

#38 Posted by Brodehouse (9587 posts) -
@LikeaSsur Both are industries, not 'guy's spaces'. Industries are based on one thing; performance of necessary tasks and manufacture of necessary products. If the tasks and products are not necessary, the industry ceases to exist. They are not 'spaces for men', they're the public sphere of production, industries available for men and women, creating products for various markets.

And in film in particular, women make up the most lucrative audience. And they should tolerate no abuse for selling to that audience. The great thing about money is its genderless. Thus so is industry.
#39 Posted by Brodehouse (9587 posts) -
@Gamer_152 there's also a shortage of women in sanitation, construction and logistics. There's also a shortage of men in nursing, teaching and human resources. I would hope you this 'sad' as well. I would hope equality extends to everyone, not just jobs with prestige.

There is actually nothing that prevents from getting into programming, art, sound, production, all the roles and tasks that need to be fulfilled to create games (women in games are largely artists, writers and producers). Industry runs on production, not what chromosomes the employees have. That's true equality. Let's not pervert philosophical equality to create statistical equality.
#40 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

Move. the fuck. on.

#41 Edited by tunaburn (1885 posts) -

why is there a thread almost every damn day now about this.

when a huge part of your group are nerds that never get laid, dont expect them to understand how to treat a girl.

#42 Edited by believer258 (11637 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@Gamer_152 there's also a shortage of women in sanitation, construction and logistics. There's also a shortage of men in nursing, teaching and human resources. I would hope you this 'sad' as well. I would hope equality extends to everyone, not just jobs with prestige. There is actually nothing that prevents from getting into programming, art, sound, production, all the roles and tasks that need to be fulfilled to create games (women in games are largely artists, writers and producers). Industry runs on production, not what chromosomes the employees have. That's true equality. Let's not pervert philosophical equality to create statistical equality.

...but you don't at all think that there aren't people in the gaming industry who are pretty damn sexist? It's not a matter you can quantify with numbers or prove with conceptual ideas, or "philosophical equality" as you put it. It's a matter of women being, in practice, treated differently. Assumed to be the receptionist, or hearing the boss yell "there's a vagina in the room!" when a woman walks into a meeting or something. I don't think men are ever acknowledged by their private parts, except when someone gets called a "dick" and that's not quite the same thing as yelling out "vagina in the room".

EDIT: And I seem to remember hearing about some women in the gaming industry acknowledging that most of the time, it's not like this, but it's still there, and it must still be something of a problem or this wouldn't keep coming up.

#43 Posted by Video_Game_King (36012 posts) -

I knew I'd have to post this eventually.

#44 Posted by Brodehouse (9587 posts) -
@believer258

@Brodehouse said:

@Gamer_152 there's also a shortage of women in sanitation, construction and logistics. There's also a shortage of men in nursing, teaching and human resources. I would hope you this 'sad' as well. I would hope equality extends to everyone, not just jobs with prestige. There is actually nothing that prevents from getting into programming, art, sound, production, all the roles and tasks that need to be fulfilled to create games (women in games are largely artists, writers and producers). Industry runs on production, not what chromosomes the employees have. That's true equality. Let's not pervert philosophical equality to create statistical equality.

...but you don't at all think that there aren't people in the gaming industry who are pretty damn sexist? It's not a matter you can quantify with numbers or prove with conceptual ideas, or "philosophical equality" as you put it. It's a matter of women being, in practice, treated differently. Assumed to be the receptionist, or hearing the boss yell "there's a vagina in the room!" when a woman walks into a meeting or something. I don't think men are ever acknowledged by their private parts, except when someone gets called a "dick" and that's not quite the same thing as yelling out "vagina in the room".

EDIT: And I seem to remember hearing about some women in the gaming industry acknowledging that most of the time, it's not like this, but it's still there, and it must still be something of a problem or this wouldn't keep coming up.

You are merging two separate arguments into one, and changing their meanings. I do not appreciate that. I would not treat you as poorly.

There are people in the industry that are sexist (sexism is the reinforcement of gender roles and generalized belief), and less so who are misogynistic (though all misogynists are sexists by definition). But here's the thing; we're not taking issue with _persons_, we're taking issue with 'an industry'. Sexism is neither codified or tolerated in the games industry. If any women working in those studios are being harassed (or feel they are); they have an incredible plethora of options available. I don't know of a single company with more than thirty full time staff that doesn't have a human resources manager (a career path which happens to be 89% women). They have agency, and the desire to pretend as if they have no choices, no option, no agency, that the only way for them to have these wrongs righted is for men to come fix them, is _entirely sexist_. Once again, reinforcement of gender roles; women have no agency, and thus are not moral actors, but moral objects. I call bullshit. Women have just as many options for acquiring redress for wrongs done to them as men, and in fact, they have more

As an aside, if you think women have no disparaging language for men, I implore you to look further. Women are no less talented in the development of incredibly hurtful language as men are.

When I talk about philosophical equality as opposed to statistical, I'm talking about production. Production is genderblind, production doesn't discern between male, female and trans; it only sees output of products and services. Women (and men) say it all the time, they want to be judged by the quality of their work, not by what sex they are. But the need for 50% workforces, or at least the desire to see it, sets production aside as the main metric to judge employees and places sex above it. That is not philosophical equality, that's a gender-focused quota. We would not tolerate the idea that we need to change hiring policies to increase the number of make teachers and professors, or change admission policies at university to 'close the gap' between male attendance and female. The cure to sexism, is absolutely not _more sexism_.
#45 Posted by psylah (2162 posts) -

This podcast is alright, haven't listened to them before. The goddamn constant background music is annoying though.

Excellent to hear that these women speak up when they feel they are being demoralized.

#46 Posted by Deusx (1903 posts) -
#47 Posted by believer258 (11637 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@believer258

@Brodehouse said:

@Gamer_152 there's also a shortage of women in sanitation, construction and logistics. There's also a shortage of men in nursing, teaching and human resources. I would hope you this 'sad' as well. I would hope equality extends to everyone, not just jobs with prestige. There is actually nothing that prevents from getting into programming, art, sound, production, all the roles and tasks that need to be fulfilled to create games (women in games are largely artists, writers and producers). Industry runs on production, not what chromosomes the employees have. That's true equality. Let's not pervert philosophical equality to create statistical equality.

...but you don't at all think that there aren't people in the gaming industry who are pretty damn sexist? It's not a matter you can quantify with numbers or prove with conceptual ideas, or "philosophical equality" as you put it. It's a matter of women being, in practice, treated differently. Assumed to be the receptionist, or hearing the boss yell "there's a vagina in the room!" when a woman walks into a meeting or something. I don't think men are ever acknowledged by their private parts, except when someone gets called a "dick" and that's not quite the same thing as yelling out "vagina in the room".

EDIT: And I seem to remember hearing about some women in the gaming industry acknowledging that most of the time, it's not like this, but it's still there, and it must still be something of a problem or this wouldn't keep coming up.

You are merging two separate arguments into one, and changing their meanings. I do not appreciate that. I would not treat you as poorly. There are people in the industry that are sexist (sexism is the reinforcement of gender roles and generalized belief), and less so who are misogynistic (though all misogynists are sexists by definition). But here's the thing; we're not taking issue with _persons_, we're taking issue with 'an industry'. Sexism is neither codified or tolerated in the games industry. If any women working in those studios are being harassed (or feel they are); they have an incredible plethora of options available. I don't know of a single company with more than thirty full time staff that doesn't have a human resources manager (a career path which happens to be 89% women). They have agency, and the desire to pretend as if they have no choices, no option, no agency, that the only way for them to have these wrongs righted is for men to come fix them, is _entirely sexist_. Once again, reinforcement of gender roles; women have no agency, and thus are not moral actors, but moral objects. I call bullshit. Women have just as many options for acquiring redress for wrongs done to them as men, and in fact, they have more As an aside, if you think women have no disparaging language for men, I implore you to look further. Women are no less talented in the development of incredibly hurtful language as men are. When I talk about philosophical equality as opposed to statistical, I'm talking about production. Production is genderblind, production doesn't discern between male, female and trans; it only sees output of products and services. Women (and men) say it all the time, they want to be judged by the quality of their work, not by what sex they are. But the need for 50% workforces, or at least the desire to see it, sets production aside as the main metric to judge employees and places sex above it. That is not philosophical equality, that's a gender-focused quota. We would not tolerate the idea that we need to change hiring policies to increase the number of make teachers and professors, or change admission policies at university to 'close the gap' between male attendance and female. The cure to sexism, is absolutely not _more sexism_.

But... I didn't say any of that. I didn't say that women couldn't solve problem themselves, or that they didn't have agency. I was just stating that there are sexists or misogynists or whatever the hell you want to call them that work in the industry and their presence and their words can have an impact on whether a woman wants to stay in the industry, or even cares to get into it in the first place. I said nothing about women not being able to solve the problem themselves. I'm not trying to white-knight equality for women. I'm saying there's a barrier to entry for them that doesn't exist for men, and it's a big one. Even if there are measures there to deal with it, it can be a good reason for an otherwise good programmer/artist/writer who happens to be female to not bother getting in the industry at all.

If you'll notice, who else is trying to solve this problem but *gasp* women? The whole Twitter hashtag? The podcast that started this thread? I'm not doing jack shit for it other than saying "good for y'all"! I'm not introducing more sexism, just stating that _it_exists_to_a_large_extent_and_is_a_problem_in_our_favorite_entertainment_industry. And you're right, the only people who can solve it are women,

Fuck, I can't believe I've gone and gotten myself embroiled in this conversation.

#48 Posted by Brodehouse (9587 posts) -
@believer258

@Brodehouse said:

@believer258

@Brodehouse said:

@Gamer_152 there's also a shortage of women in sanitation, construction and logistics. There's also a shortage of men in nursing, teaching and human resources. I would hope you this 'sad' as well. I would hope equality extends to everyone, not just jobs with prestige. There is actually nothing that prevents from getting into programming, art, sound, production, all the roles and tasks that need to be fulfilled to create games (women in games are largely artists, writers and producers). Industry runs on production, not what chromosomes the employees have. That's true equality. Let's not pervert philosophical equality to create statistical equality.

...but you don't at all think that there aren't people in the gaming industry who are pretty damn sexist? It's not a matter you can quantify with numbers or prove with conceptual ideas, or "philosophical equality" as you put it. It's a matter of women being, in practice, treated differently. Assumed to be the receptionist, or hearing the boss yell "there's a vagina in the room!" when a woman walks into a meeting or something. I don't think men are ever acknowledged by their private parts, except when someone gets called a "dick" and that's not quite the same thing as yelling out "vagina in the room".

EDIT: And I seem to remember hearing about some women in the gaming industry acknowledging that most of the time, it's not like this, but it's still there, and it must still be something of a problem or this wouldn't keep coming up.

You are merging two separate arguments into one, and changing their meanings. I do not appreciate that. I would not treat you as poorly. There are people in the industry that are sexist (sexism is the reinforcement of gender roles and generalized belief), and less so who are misogynistic (though all misogynists are sexists by definition). But here's the thing; we're not taking issue with _persons_, we're taking issue with 'an industry'. Sexism is neither codified or tolerated in the games industry. If any women working in those studios are being harassed (or feel they are); they have an incredible plethora of options available. I don't know of a single company with more than thirty full time staff that doesn't have a human resources manager (a career path which happens to be 89% women). They have agency, and the desire to pretend as if they have no choices, no option, no agency, that the only way for them to have these wrongs righted is for men to come fix them, is _entirely sexist_. Once again, reinforcement of gender roles; women have no agency, and thus are not moral actors, but moral objects. I call bullshit. Women have just as many options for acquiring redress for wrongs done to them as men, and in fact, they have more As an aside, if you think women have no disparaging language for men, I implore you to look further. Women are no less talented in the development of incredibly hurtful language as men are. When I talk about philosophical equality as opposed to statistical, I'm talking about production. Production is genderblind, production doesn't discern between male, female and trans; it only sees output of products and services. Women (and men) say it all the time, they want to be judged by the quality of their work, not by what sex they are. But the need for 50% workforces, or at least the desire to see it, sets production aside as the main metric to judge employees and places sex above it. That is not philosophical equality, that's a gender-focused quota. We would not tolerate the idea that we need to change hiring policies to increase the number of make teachers and professors, or change admission policies at university to 'close the gap' between male attendance and female. The cure to sexism, is absolutely not _more sexism_.

But... I didn't say any of that. I didn't say that women couldn't solve problem themselves, or that they didn't have agency. I was just stating that there are sexists or misogynists or whatever the hell you want to call them that work in the industry and their presence and their words can have an impact on whether a woman wants to stay in the industry, or even cares to get into it in the first place. I said nothing about women not being able to solve the problem themselves. I'm not trying to white-knight equality for women. I'm saying there's a barrier to entry for them that doesn't exist for men, and it's a big one. Even if there are measures there to deal with it, it can be a good reason for an otherwise good programmer/artist/writer who happens to be female to not bother getting in the industry at all.

If you'll notice, who else is trying to solve this problem but *gasp* women? The whole Twitter hashtag? The podcast that started this thread? I'm not doing jack shit for it other than saying "good for y'all"! I'm not introducing more sexism, just stating that _it_exists_to_a_large_extent_and_is_a_problem_in_our_favorite_entertainment_industry. And you're right, the only people who can solve it are women,

Fuck, I can't believe I've gone and gotten myself embroiled in this conversation.

Oh boy. Here we go.

There are sexists 'and their words can have an impact'. _Everyone's_ words can have an impact. And there are numerous options for dealing with abusive work environments. When sexual harassment is happening, there are legal entities in place to resolve it. They can be used by anyone.

There is _NO BARRIER TO ENTRY_. This is a complete lie, that exists only to limit women's agency. The only barrier to entry in any industry is the ability to produce. Because that is the _only thing that affects a company's bottom line_. If companies are hiring less qualified men in favor of qualified women, those women will go to other companies, and out-perform their competitors, leading to the eventual collapse of the former company. This is how money and business works. Money, production; are non-gendered. Furthermore, as I said... Women make up the vast majority of HR, who typically handle the screening, hiring and firing of employees. Are women the barrier to entry to women?

"Who else is trying to solve the problem but women?" I can't believe how sexist people can be and don't even see to know it. With that one statement you've implied that all men, especially those in the games industry, are not only tolerating the occasional sexist asshole or bigot who tries to keep men or women in their respective corner, you've made them complicit in the harassment of women. Who else, indeed. Imagine the opposite, if you said women aren't interested in doing the ethically right thing, and consider if anyone would tolerate it.

Lastly, the 'large problem' thing is unquantified, anecdotal, and _already has a number of solutions in place_. All we do is paint women as so helpless that Twitter is their only way of finding any justice or fairness, but that's simply not true. If you work, your company has a sexual harassment policy. These incidents, were they reported? In the case they were, what came of that, was there an investigation into it, was there apologies, dismissals, law suits? Agency is not just rights and privileges, it's responsibility for your own well being too. I've been attacked four times at my job. If I had failed to report it, if I just continued working feeling powerless; any woman on earth would mark me a fool. I have the agency to protect myself, through calling the police, through guarding against future incidents; and women do too. It's time we start treating them like adults, not helpless children who can't solve their own problems. People pay lip service and gladhand, because the actual prosecution of justice is based around facts and ethics, not feelings and reassurances. And they say unquantified things like "it's a huge problem" because someone said "it's a huge problem".

Patrick is the clear example of what's going on. It's so much _easier_ to say nice, supportive things and demonize innocent men (who will agree what bastards they must be, because societal guilt overrides personal innocence) than actually do the kind of work that is involved in resolving sexual harassment claims and other workplace disputes. Lastly, no, it's not only women who can fix this problem. Men and women are both interested in justice and fairness.

Oh it all just makes me sick to my stomach.
#49 Posted by Video_Game_King (36012 posts) -

A.) Why are you guys using underscores for bold/italics? Is it because you're on your phones? Does that mean on computers, I show up as VideoGameKing?

B.) Skip to 1:20. Long paragraphs as responses to a thread are never a good thing.

#50 Posted by believer258 (11637 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

@believer258

@Brodehouse said:

@believer258

@Brodehouse said:

@Gamer_152 there's also a shortage of women in sanitation, construction and logistics. There's also a shortage of men in nursing, teaching and human resources. I would hope you this 'sad' as well. I would hope equality extends to everyone, not just jobs with prestige. There is actually nothing that prevents from getting into programming, art, sound, production, all the roles and tasks that need to be fulfilled to create games (women in games are largely artists, writers and producers). Industry runs on production, not what chromosomes the employees have. That's true equality. Let's not pervert philosophical equality to create statistical equality.

...but you don't at all think that there aren't people in the gaming industry who are pretty damn sexist? It's not a matter you can quantify with numbers or prove with conceptual ideas, or "philosophical equality" as you put it. It's a matter of women being, in practice, treated differently. Assumed to be the receptionist, or hearing the boss yell "there's a vagina in the room!" when a woman walks into a meeting or something. I don't think men are ever acknowledged by their private parts, except when someone gets called a "dick" and that's not quite the same thing as yelling out "vagina in the room".

EDIT: And I seem to remember hearing about some women in the gaming industry acknowledging that most of the time, it's not like this, but it's still there, and it must still be something of a problem or this wouldn't keep coming up.

You are merging two separate arguments into one, and changing their meanings. I do not appreciate that. I would not treat you as poorly. There are people in the industry that are sexist (sexism is the reinforcement of gender roles and generalized belief), and less so who are misogynistic (though all misogynists are sexists by definition). But here's the thing; we're not taking issue with _persons_, we're taking issue with 'an industry'. Sexism is neither codified or tolerated in the games industry. If any women working in those studios are being harassed (or feel they are); they have an incredible plethora of options available. I don't know of a single company with more than thirty full time staff that doesn't have a human resources manager (a career path which happens to be 89% women). They have agency, and the desire to pretend as if they have no choices, no option, no agency, that the only way for them to have these wrongs righted is for men to come fix them, is _entirely sexist_. Once again, reinforcement of gender roles; women have no agency, and thus are not moral actors, but moral objects. I call bullshit. Women have just as many options for acquiring redress for wrongs done to them as men, and in fact, they have more As an aside, if you think women have no disparaging language for men, I implore you to look further. Women are no less talented in the development of incredibly hurtful language as men are. When I talk about philosophical equality as opposed to statistical, I'm talking about production. Production is genderblind, production doesn't discern between male, female and trans; it only sees output of products and services. Women (and men) say it all the time, they want to be judged by the quality of their work, not by what sex they are. But the need for 50% workforces, or at least the desire to see it, sets production aside as the main metric to judge employees and places sex above it. That is not philosophical equality, that's a gender-focused quota. We would not tolerate the idea that we need to change hiring policies to increase the number of make teachers and professors, or change admission policies at university to 'close the gap' between male attendance and female. The cure to sexism, is absolutely not _more sexism_.

But... I didn't say any of that. I didn't say that women couldn't solve problem themselves, or that they didn't have agency. I was just stating that there are sexists or misogynists or whatever the hell you want to call them that work in the industry and their presence and their words can have an impact on whether a woman wants to stay in the industry, or even cares to get into it in the first place. I said nothing about women not being able to solve the problem themselves. I'm not trying to white-knight equality for women. I'm saying there's a barrier to entry for them that doesn't exist for men, and it's a big one. Even if there are measures there to deal with it, it can be a good reason for an otherwise good programmer/artist/writer who happens to be female to not bother getting in the industry at all.

If you'll notice, who else is trying to solve this problem but *gasp* women? The whole Twitter hashtag? The podcast that started this thread? I'm not doing jack shit for it other than saying "good for y'all"! I'm not introducing more sexism, just stating that _it_exists_to_a_large_extent_and_is_a_problem_in_our_favorite_entertainment_industry. And you're right, the only people who can solve it are women,

Fuck, I can't believe I've gone and gotten myself embroiled in this conversation.

Oh boy. Here we go. There are sexists 'and their words can have an impact'. _Everyone's_ words can have an impact. And there are numerous options for dealing with abusive work environments. When sexual harassment is happening, there are legal entities in place to resolve it. They can be used by anyone. There is _NO BARRIER TO ENTRY_. This is a complete lie, that exists only to limit women's agency. The only barrier to entry in any industry is the ability to produce. Because that is the _only thing that affects a company's bottom line_. If companies are hiring less qualified men in favor of qualified women, those women will go to other companies, and out-perform their competitors, leading to the eventual collapse of the former company. This is how money and business works. Money, production; are non-gendered. Furthermore, as I said... Women make up the vast majority of HR, who typically handle the screening, hiring and firing of employees. Are women the barrier to entry to women? "Who else is trying to solve the problem but women?" I can't believe how sexist people can be and don't even see to know it. With that one statement you've implied that all men, especially those in the games industry, are not only tolerating the occasional sexist asshole or bigot who tries to keep men or women in their respective corner, you've made them complicit in the harassment of women. Who else, indeed. Imagine the opposite, if you said women aren't interested in doing the ethically right thing, and consider if anyone would tolerate it. Lastly, the 'large problem' thing is unquantified, anecdotal, and _already has a number of solutions in place_. All we do is paint women as so helpless that Twitter is their only way of finding any justice or fairness, but that's simply not true. If you work, your company has a sexual harassment policy. These incidents, were they reported? In the case they were, what came of that, was there an investigation into it, was there apologies, dismissals, law suits? Agency is not just rights and privileges, it's responsibility for your own well being too. I've been attacked four times at my job. If I had failed to report it, if I just continued working feeling powerless; any woman on earth would mark me a fool. I have the agency to protect myself, through calling the police, through guarding against future incidents; and women do too. It's time we start treating them like adults, not helpless children who can't solve their own problems. People pay lip service and gladhand, because the actual prosecution of justice is based around facts and ethics, not feelings and reassurances. And they say unquantified things like "it's a huge problem" because someone said "it's a huge problem". Patrick is the clear example of what's going on. It's so much _easier_ to say nice, supportive things and demonize innocent men (who will agree what bastards they must be, because societal guilt overrides personal innocence) than actually do the kind of work that is involved in resolving sexual harassment claims and other workplace disputes. Lastly, no, it's not only women who can fix this problem. Men and women are both interested in justice and fairness. Oh it all just makes me sick to my stomach.

Three things:

1) I didn't say anything about demonizing men, and I didn't say that women were innocent of everything. Stop putting words in my mouth, or putting phrases in my posts as it were.

2) You're telling me that a workplace with people in it who are going to make light of something like gender isn't a barrier at all? You're telling me that these people coming forth with short little stories about such things are lying? Yeah, there are systems in place for them to report it, but if you were a woman starting in the gaming industry - or, say, a man trying to start a sewing TV show - wouldn't it be nice if those systems weren't even needed in the first place because no one had any preconceptions about your abilities simply because of your gender? Please, read that sentence a few dozen times before responding.

3) You've missed what I was trying to say. If you respond, please don't put words into my mouth or miss my point again.