Tropes Vs. Women in Video Games Ep1

Funny, you win the internets.

She calls herself a gamer, but doesn't play or own games. She calls herself a game commentator, but doesn't know about the games she's commenting on.

Watch a few of her videos, she does the same with comics, TV shows and movies. Basing her arguments on other people's arguments without any legitimate research, which leads to false conclusions.

@mellotronrules said:

I don't care.

The truth, and reality have been doing a pretty good job of invalidating most of her arguments for years, seriously watch her videos.

It's not my theory, I saw it on a rebuttal video with screenshots of the posts. I didn't see it first hand, so I called it a theory.

I thought both the presentation and content was boring, I guess I expected a little more passion, display of knowledge and opinions about the subject. I didn't get any sort of impression as to what Anita's endgame is. Even the story of Krystal fell a little flat as Anita maintained an air of neutrality? Indifference?

I'm sure there's a Youtube show out there about this subject that I'd enjoy watching but this isn't it.

The whole -damsel in distress- trope is used because the trope is actually true.
Just watch what kind of play children engage in. Little girls will play doctor/nurse, pretend that they are cooking or holding a doll as if it's their own baby. It's only natural that for the development of the female gender to show caring traits and plays at a young age. Boys will engage in fights against imaginary monsters, (cos)play being warriors and soldiers with sticks and stones. Little boys show a tendency to the more adventurous traits and a chunk of more violence in their imaginitive plays.

But something interesting happens when both boys and girls play together. You'll see that almost immediatly they play the damsel in distress game in which a girl wants to be saved from a monster and a brave warrior must defeat it. If you ask the little girls about it, they just say they enjoy being saved. Same goes for the boys, they love the adventure.

If you think that this is due to the gender roles portrayed in the media, it does not explain why and how children from native tribes show the very same plays as ours do in our society. There is nothing inherently bad about gender roles. There is nothing bad about the damsel in distress trope, it's a thing most of us probably don't remember much from our childhood. There is nothing sexist or misogynistic about using the damsel in distress motif.

It's just that people don't understand that gender roles have some truth behind them. While I agree that videogames should be as open as to women as they are to men, it does not mean that the tropes and overarching themes in our videogames should be dramatically changed to either please the one or the other gender. It does not mean that the motifs of love, man saving a woman etc. that we are fond of experiencing should be done away with.

I personally know a female friend of mine that likes to shoot up a whole lot of people online in Call of Duty and likes to blow the brains off of zombies in zombie games, generally playing a lot of more shooters (that are hypermale-oriented), than I ever do. We men probably worry too much about some of this stuff as she never mentioned once how misogynystic or woman-insulting videogames are. That's a form of patronism I absolutely detest and is shown a lot in threads about mysogyny. Let the women themselves be the judge if games are either insulting women and if we should remove them. This is pretty much a thread in which over 90% of the posters are men, while that does not exempt from having an opinion, please don't patronize women as if you know what's best for them.

TL;DR
Some gender-based tropes have factual origins to them. Gender-based inequility is not inherently bad.
Some tropes have their place in videogames and I fear for loss of creativity when we try to make everything as female-friendly as possible. We shouldn't patronize women, they probably know what's best for them.

@trafalgarlaw: I think any sort of "gender trope" or "gender role" is totally culturally defined. There is nothing innate with any of it. So you would find that if you looked at a society that is matrilocal or matrilineal (i.e. living around your mother, defining your lineage through your maternal line) probably do not have the damsel in distress trope. That doesn't mean that there aren't gender roles (although some cultures do not have any) but the damsel trope is not among them. The limits we place upon any single human being are totally defined in our own heads. Of course there are physical and biological differences between men and women but that does not infer any extraordinary role or label.

So why do games have these tropes? Easy. It's because they relate back to previously established cultural mythologies and stories. The tropes are there as a way for the player to relate to them. Those tropes ahve nothing to do with biology or gender, but rather a previously established norm that the creator follows to connect his/her material to a context that is familiar with the user.

In the end, I think the video states totally true points. Yes, there are tropes. Yes, they are not reflective of reality. Yes, it would be cool to have novel video game situations. However, I do not believe that, if given proper education, that those tropes inform any single person. By that I mean that people do not play a game and then infer the lessons learnt in the game to real life, especially when those "lessons" are that women are objects to be rescued. Children, and every other person who plays video games should be told that what we see/play is totally fictional, and as a result has no real bearing on life as a whole. In saying that, video games can be offensive and of course that should be avoided.

In the end, I also expected more from the video. It was not analytical nor did it critically discuss the damsel in distress trope. It simply rattled off a list of video games that had damsel in distress elements and summed up her feelings in a two minute editorial at the end. In saying that, I think the video was a success in that it has created a discussion and has caused people to examine video games under a feminist lens regardless if they agree or disagree with the presenter's statements.

I also agree that tropes aren't necessarily bad as long as they aren't offensive. I wouldn't call princess peach or Zelda in anyway offensive. The games are not making a social commentary, they are simply vehicles to complete your quest. You could swap the genders of the main characters and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. If that was her whole "point" than I fail to see the real issue. If however, she would rather more female centric video games, then sure, I agree. The reality, at least from my uneducated point of view, is that most games are made by men (with a minority of women) and thus have a male point of view. Once women take a firm creative role in the development/creation of games, then their voice will be heard. But that doesn't mean that games cannot be a little more sensitive to any sort of issue, regardless of who brings it up.

Guess I will pst this in here since the other one got locked....

What should they have discussed? That there are black people in Africa but because it could offend someone they should not make them black because it is racist to shoot black people? This discussion should not even exist.... Also I dont care not because it does not affect me but I dont care because I think there are bigger problems you have to tackle when you talk about sexism in general.

As for your COD example: So Your Girlfriend is not playing COD because she can not play a woman? I am sorry but How stupid is this? I dont care if I play a woman or a man in the game. I love Lightning. I loved to play as Madision n Heavy Rain. I loved to play as Milia in Tales of Xillia and so on. i really dont care because I just want to enjoy an interesting story or gameplay.

Also Imagine if every game in 2013 will featue a very strong and independent Female character. Will games than sell better or worse? Will a game like COD get better sales just because it has more woman in it or you play as one? Dont be stupid... Products are being made for a certain group of people and there is nothing wrong with it. Dont try to please everyone and dont try not to offend anyone because you will not succeed in both.

It's frustrating how many people don't seem to get that the issue is a systemic one. Peach being a damsel in distress isn't the issue. The issue is that the trope (Or more generally, the idea of "woman as trophy") is just so damn prevalent in the medium.

Similarly, the fact that there are sexy ladies in video games isn't an problem. In fact, it's a good thing! I like sexy ladies.The problem is when developers are pressured into making nearly every goddamn female character into a sexy lady.

Now, I WILL say that this video was pretty dull and I feel there are better feminist voices on the internet than Sarkeesian (Lindsey Ellis jumps immediately to mind), but the fact that you can point out that one time a male character was the one in distress doesn't invalidate her argument.

^let's put that stephen fry quote into it's proper context (and this is nothing against you @darji, but i see people misappropriating that quote all the time- sort of like ronald reagan using 'born in the usa' as a campaign song).

here it is in it's original context:

it comes from a conversation he was having with hitchens regarding religion and conservative views- he specifically mentions the daily mail (which is a well known conservative paper in u.k.) and the way they've been appropriating terms like "respect" and "offense" to critique behavior they deem unseemly.

seeing as stephen is an openly homosexual, and in the clip above he mentions a sensitivity to the plight of african americans, i doubt very much he would take issue with critiques of video games (with respect to race, sexual preference, or gender). one would think that would equip him with a perceptiveness to subjects such as these.

i can totally deal with nostalgia chick but Anita is just terrible. Just look at her " the worst christmas Songs" list. This is overanalyzing shit which is even totally out of context and beyond stupid.

Also if you want a discussion at least try games with an actual story or meaningful characters. Do not try it with a game like Mario, or even Donkey Kong... Also dont try it with games that are actually solely made for man or boys in the first place...

Again that is as i want to tell people how sexist. Sex in the City or Twillight is against men... it is just not made for men just like some or many games are just not made for women.

So she spends ten minutes over-explaining a concept you could lay down in a sentence whilst dropping some French literary references? That's it?

I agree that hey, writers and designers could be more willing to try and shift the balance a bit. But she seems to focus solely on pop culture, ignoring that these tropes go back to story archetypes from the classics and before, since the roots of fiction in legend and myth. They are archetypal stems of shared experience, from the quite objective archaic roles in early humans, as with any species. It doesn't represent the current perception of females. The male action hero is just as much of a "sexist trope" in that sense. Sure it's empowering, but this constant projection of a "real man" as someone with endless and irrational courage and open to using violent measures is just as fucked in its own right. We need to think about our willingness to be content with tropes, cliches and stereotypes in general but even then not all the time; there's plenty of room for dumb shit (on either side of the coin). You can't go laying down guidelines for these things. There's no objective, absolute rationality that you could apply to it. It's something that emerges from the slow boiling soup of our collective culture and psyche. This path leads to Peach as a playable character in New Super Mario Bros., fine, but not alongside a gay black man, a disabled Asian woman and a mentally handicapped hermaphrodite (in every game ever). That sounds really offensive, but trust me, it's not.

There is no authority. Spread your views and stand by 'em, but don't force them upon artists, leading to compromised vision and integrity, and a stagnation of intelligent judgement. Let's all collectively rise above and call something out when it's tasteless or offensive, but please, abandon the idea of regulating artistic expression as soon as possible.

(There's also this thing of hey, if something is a big enough "thing" for you to be referencing it in your ethical critique, it must resonate with a lot of people before you'd even have heard of it, right? So there's a high chance it has some inherent universal truth in it? Stereotypes are not the same thing as archetypes? Just a thought.)

@mellotronrules:

I don't know a ton about Stephen Fry but of the two interviews I've seen him give he sounds like just such a pretentious dick.

Oh yeah and sexism is bad.

you mean like at 3:58 when she mentions Perseus and Andromeda? she's examining tropes and in video games specifically, not tropes across the history of human existence. she doesn't claim these tropes were invented by video games, and briefly mentions their historical context. i think that's enough.

so you're saying that if something's been done for a long time, it's true and/or correct? that seems like a horrible standard.

he is a bit pretentious, but he's also very funny and very intelligent. you probably won't, but if you're able to you should check out QI sometime. it's like jeopardy, if only jeopardy was played by british comedians, the points didn't matter, and they didn't give a shit about censorship.

I don't know. I might check it out. I saw him on Top Gear and in that video (so not really two full interviews but who's counting?) and I just couldn't handle it.

I just looked through my collection of modern video games, and almost nowhere is this trope to be found.

Bayonetta - woman kicking ass, no need for a rescue.

Just Cause 2 - at least one of your bosses is a women. No rescue.

Red Dead Redemption - I don't remember for sure, but I did feel that the female characters were very fleshed out and well-written.

Arkham City - Batman rescues catwoman once, and she totally saves his ass later on.

Assassin's Creed Series - with as many missions as there are in the games, I'd be shocked if you didn't rescue a female somewhere along the line. You can also recruit them into your "Brotherhood," and they end up wearing pretty much the same clothes as everyone else.

Call of Duty series - Already been discussed. Trope is present.

Battlefield 3 - Never played the campaign, no females in multiplayer.

Mass Effect series - About as non-sexist as games get. Several rescue missions, both male and female.

Saints Row series - Pretty damn sexist, but you can play as either gender.

Gears of War series - I honestly forgot, but I wouldn't be shocked either way. Anyone happen to know?

Grand Theft Auto IV - During one mission, you get the choice of rescuing a male or a female. Hardly an example of the trope.

Halo Series - Don't remember any female rescues. Never did care much about the plot in Halo games, though.

Crackdown - No rescues.

Fable II - Not sure about rescues, but you can play as a female.

Prince of Persia 2008 - female rescue is a big part of the plot, but you'd have to be crazy to think of her as a trophy or object. Very well-written character.

Mirror's Edge - You are trying to rescue your sister, but you are also a female protagonist.

Portal 2 - Female protagonist, no rescue.

Skyrim - Don't remember any rescues, but the game is huge, and you can play as a female.

Darksiders II - No rescue, but there's a badass female angel that is the leader of a group of angel warriors.

Ninja Gaiden II - A rescue wouldn't surprise me, but I don't remember one way or another.

Borderlands 2 - Female character is rescued, but she's hardly presented as an object. She's as fleshed out as any NPC. Depending on character choice, she can be saved by one of two female characters, or one of three male characters.

Far Cry 3 - Game is all about you trying to save your friends, two males and two females.

Rayman Origins - I think you save several female fairy characters throughout.

Tales of Vesperia - Never finished it, but like most RPGs, your party certainly includes female characters.

So, just for laughs, lets read that again.

My modern game collection says otherwise. Even if every "don't remember" actually did contain a female rescue, I'd hardly use the word "prevalent" to describe this particular trope.

@mellotronrules:

Just saying that while we should strive to move away from taking the easy route (perpetuating stereotypes), it's also a very pointless endeavor to take all these a priori concepts and start condemning them as humanity's growing pains. They're inherent to our collective social programming. It's good that we're becoming aware of them and how they reflect on us as a species, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and a princess in a fairy tale is hardly even a first world problem. These classic tropes can co-exist with more serious content that's more aligned with what we hope for these cultural touchstones to become in the future. You'll find that most individuals can make these distinctions, and if not it's the kind of person who will never make any attempt at empathy. Plenty of those around.

I guess I agree with her in general but her arguments are a result of very linear thinking and it annoys me. Those videos in the second post have some good examples of the logical fallacies and contradictions. There's also a philosophical and anthropological context here that's fairly academic, might even get metaphysical. Yet every dissenting opinion is met with mostly politically correct shaming. Not your post, but on the internet in general (especially her youtube channel) and the whole thing stinks.

<p>So one persons game collection represents the whole medium now?</p><p>Data is not the plurel of anecdote. (god I hate how smug that phrase sounds)</p>

Dang, this pretty much points out what's most lacking in the video. Discussion on the societal context of the video games mentioned. So far, the video is too narrow in scope to be of any interest, really.

This is a brilliantly infuriating article, in the sense that it shows how infuriating the experience of watching Sarkeesian's video is. The silliest thing is that the things that this guy points out provide a far more viable route for critique than anything in the video; does the fact that a culture with (apparently) far more systemic sexism than the USA also produces more sexist depictions of women in games, that suggests some link that we can do something with - such as moving into more complicated, equivocal and complex readings of games with more advanced narratives produced in the west, and suggest that perhaps something of the same relationship between our culture and our games exists. Obviously it would be a stretch to claim that the depictions caused systemic issues, but it would be a way into some kind of reflection.

Maybe this is her ultimate plan, I suppose. She certainly hasn't hinted at it.

I think you're misunderstanding her purpose here. While yes, she's condemning what were bad decisions in the past, these videos are not just about saying "this is what we did this was bad the end" rather, I think she's taking a page from Nietzsche here and arguing that understanding the genealogy of our tropes is a fundamental part of understanding how they operate today. In order to deconstruct the myth, we must first have an understanding of how it came about, of it's origin.

As the S.E.P. puts it

Foucault intended the term “genealogy” to evoke Nietzsche's genealogy of morals, particularly with its suggestion of complex, mundane, inglorious origins—in no way part of any grand scheme of progressive history. The point of a genealogical analysis is to show that a given system of thought (itself uncovered in its essential structures by archaeology, which therefore remains part of Foucault's historiography) was the result of contingent turns of history, not the outcome of rationally inevitable trends.

Understanding the history of the idea allows us to recognize how it has come to constrain our thinking, if we unquestioningly use tropes in games then we're left with their near omnipresence, they become the de facto mode of expression and thought, and as a result become the unchallenged background radiation of video games. By constructing the history of the thing, we come to understand that the thing doesn't always have to be there, that there are alternatives. We can turn to the S.E.P. again

The premise of the archaeological method is that systems of thought and knowledge (epistemes or discursive formations, in Foucault's terminology) are governed by rules, beyond those of grammar and logic, that operate beneath the consciousness of individual subjects and define a system of conceptual possibilities that determines the boundaries of thought in a given domain and period

The point being raised here is that tropes like the damsel in distress are used, not because the author has ingrained misogyny, but because it's a norm of the genre (and storytelling in general). Author's aren't shoehorning women into Damsel in Distress roles because they want to send a message about a woman's place, they're placing women into these roles because it's where they've almost always gone. One need not have any hatred of women to end up limiting them by blindly following the actions of the past, which is why we need to understand the history of the idea that we are subconsciously relying upon, so that we can replace the norm.

This is not to say that there aren't notable exceptions to this trope, and it's something that Sarkesian recognizes, but it's important to take note of the fact that they're still exceptions. Usually unless we see a story set out to deliberately subvert the damsel in distress trope, women are forced back into that role because those are the assumed boundaries of the cultural script we operate under.

Edit: I notice the Fillibustercartoons rebuttal getting tossed around a bit here and I have to state that the author of the rebuttal has also completely missed the point as well, it's evident when they post things like

In her 23 minutes, Sarkeesian says the word “Japanese” exactly once. Completely disinterested in the cultural roots of her subject matter, to her, “video games” are simply things that randomly emerged from some neutral ether, as opposed to a particular sort of corporation run by a particular sort of person living in a particular sort of country.

this is the exact opposite of what the video was doing. The idea of challenging the lazy, assumed shorthand, that slots women into these tropes is by nature interested in the cultural background of the creator, and the mindset of the creator. It proposes theories about what story-lines govern the creators modes subconscious thought, the idea of the trope, of the constant unit of expression making itself known in multiple pieces of media, has to speak to the thoughts of the people who created the the piece, it is claiming that they're lazily relying on the same ideas as their predecessors, the concept of the trope is mired in the thoughts of the creator.

I mumbled that to myself as soon as I saw this thread.

You know, 200 thousand could have been used to actually make a game starring a female character and all her ideals.

yeah...

Regardless of my position and the circumstances around the issue itself, if there's one thing I don't need more of right now, it's how videogames and movies and music turn children into murderers. If there's two things, it's that and this silly "the government is going to blow up, because we had to cut the amount of extra money we planned to spend next year by like a thousandth of one percent!". If there's three things, it's those and the ten million "sexism, misogyny video games, geeks durp durp" thing that we are constantly bombarded with. I hate to see people mistreated. I hate censorship (even self-censorship by mob-rule). I hate overly sensitive middle class white boys deciding what is and isn't offensive. I hate everything being an earth shattering over-sensitive event for an over-sensitive society of victims. I hate internet jerks. I hate that I'm sometimes an internet jerk.

So, all I can say is, it's great that we're still in an economy of free ideas and initiative and that those are protected by everything we hold most precious in the US (and generally in other modern societies). It's great that there can be things which seem insensitive. Or maybe things that actually are insensitive -- and they're just as valid (as far as a right to exist) as anything else. Even actually horrible things that test one's ideals in adhering to free speech and thought. And it's great that those who are put-off by things (or even those who just want to ambulance chase or linkbait or career-bait) can have a voice and do so.

As for myself -- for my sanity and blood pressure -- I don't think I can continue on watching this back and forth with a handful of moderate sensible people in the middle flanked by lunatic overly-sensitive super-freaks on one side and the most atrociously hateful trolls on the other. I don't mean this thread. I just mean, in general. For an industry that is supposed to be about entertainment, creativity, and pushing boundaries, we seem to be subjected to more non-stop "women's issues" than an actual Womens Study college course (with only the slightest dash of racist stuff or homophobic stuff or ageist stuff or xenophobic stuff thrown in every great once in awhile, because while those are token issues, we only seem to actually give a fuck about the women stuff).

So, everyone on both sides carry on. I'm not going to make a difference toward either end -- and neither are any of you -- because these issues are not endemic to gaming or geeks and nerds. They are cultural and societal issues. Like many other such important issues, there will always be Anita Sarkeesians and Jack Thompsons and Anne Coulters stirring things up for their own profit and benefit and there will always be plenty of people frothing at the mouth to follow them (or fight with them). Such is the way of the world.

Any changes that may (or need to) come will be through a more glacial and organic shift that will not have any relation to all of this rabid mud-slinging and bile spewing. These things are merely side-shows which distract and rile people up to no meaningful end. . . and maybe make a couple self-proclaimed "experts" a buck or two, in the process.

Good on them, I guess. And good on the trolls on the other side that will keep them in business well into the future.

Hi I just watched the video to see what all the fuss is about. It seems well researched and she totally has a point, with all those games tailored to a male audience. I knew most of the stuff she presented as examples but seeing all those tropes compressed in a short video helped to see the point: Videogames are dominated by this trope in one form or another, with some rare exceptions.

I think its kind of sad that we (the industry and the average gamer) need her to tell us these things, which kind of should be super obvious in hindsight, but as this thread and many other conversations show: We need her.

But that's exactly what Anita did and will continue to do. Because even though she isn't explicit in saying that her dialogue is meant to be taken as criticism of the whole medium, that's the obviously implication anyone will take from it just as you did of SpaceInsomniac who also said nothing of the sort.

Sorry, but no, we don't. It's a nice video but the subject has been discussed ad infinitum. All she's doing is putting it in a form that's easy to understand. That's I believe a stated intention of the videos, she never claimed to be the first.

Just read through some of the rants going on in this thread and then tell me again that we don't need to raise awareness of these issues. Simply the fact that someone can't make such a harmless video without getting torn into pieces is telling.

@jgf: I suppose the people bringing up stuff like 'white men' and other tinfoil hat theories don't count? There are multiple kinds of crazy, once we start to purposefully misplace too much importance on them, we lose sight of reasonable discussion.

We see a lot of that. Some guy says cunt or whore and now he's apparently talking on behalf of all males, which is incredibly unfair. You're also about as likely to change that guy's mind as the guy who thinks we're still in the 1930's.

No, but maybe we can make him look like such an asshole that the next guy will think twice.

Thats kind of true but not what I meant. I also don't think you can reason with the crazy ones, but what you should do is raise awareness of the issue (exactly what the video did), so that the sane people realize that there is in fact something going wrong.

Ok I get that this is "a bit exaggerating" but I just though about a famous quote from Napoleon that I can't resist to share :D

The people to fear are not those who disagree with you, but those who disagree with you and are too cowardly to let you know.

Napoleon

So as @mtcantor said, at least we should let the crazy ones know that they are not the majority and there are people out there that disagree.

No need. He already does look like an asshole, and nothing is going to make people like that "think twice" about anything.

Exactly. Does it represent the whole medium? No. Does it represent a completely randomized sample? Yes. What am I actually arguing against?

So while it certainly doesn't represent the whole medium, which do you feel is likely to be a BETTER representation of the tropes current prevalence in the medium?

A) Cherry picked examples of the trope, mostly from games made in the 80s and 90s, mostly from when the tech could barely tell a story, and mostly from Japan.

B) A completely random sample of modern games from a random game collection, all made in the past decade, all made after games started telling detailed stories.

If you think that I'm wrong, try it with your own game collection and see how prevalent the trope is yourself. If you have too many games, take a random sample of 20 or so that are all right next to each other on the shelf.

@mtcantor: I agree. The only reason I mentioned a few phrases earlier was because I felt like it shouldn't slide by as though it's tacitly agreed to. I also make sure to not name call in reply because that's not my style. I just want to make sure we collectively don't act like we agree either. With using those terms I mean, people can certainly agree with criticism of the video of course.

Right. I agree too.

As to the argument though that all of this is pointless because some guys act like assholes and we will never change their minds, my point is that we don't need to. We just need to change someone else's mind who could have gone either way. The next generation of kids, for instance, should grow up knowing phrases like that are unacceptable. We can absolutely make progress. It's just slow.

As far as all of us agreeing or not about the video, of course we all don't. We all come from different backgrounds and despite our shared interests (video games, related culture, giant bomb), we have different opinions. That's fine. I am actually encouraged to see as much honest and open debate as I am seeing. This is only a good thing.

First off, she made it clear she was discussing older games in this video. Newer games are in the next one.

Also, she chose Mario and Zelda, two of the biggest video game franchises ever. How is that not representative or at least informative of the trope's prevalence? I mean, these are games that a huge number of people have played, including people that are not "hardcore" gamers.

She made her point.

This all just sounds far too self-important and has little to do with the video at all: we're headed into 'philosophical bullshit' territory. Personally, I don't agree with shaming anyone for their opinion, arguing is fine. Otherwise this forum would become an echo chamber. Assuming it's not one already!

I'm just saying, would you like others going around being super sensitive like in the Far Cry 3 Quick Look, where comments slandered Jeff for being a self-hating white guy? You can make a fine argument against bigotry of any kind but once you start to shout down or outright censor it, what message does that send to the next generation? Reasonable debate is the only way forward.

If you are brave enough to voice your opinion, you should be brave enough to face the consequences of doing so.

There's two sides to the whole free speech thing. You can say what you want, but I can make you own it.

I think we should also remember that she is doing a series where various tropes will be discussed. I am more interested in ones that are actually kind of debatable. The damsel in distress trope is kind of so overused and prevalent in all forms of media that is certainly a good springboard to familiarize people with what she will be doing. It makes sense to start with a very common idea and then transition into the more contentious bits.

It also makes sense to try and encapsulate the idea by using various examples and then digging further into the material, which is what she said she was going to do in this first video and why it is broken up into parts. I saw the first part as a history lesson and two big names that are easily recognized (think of the whole story that Mario is more recognizable than Mickey Mouse these days) were a large focus, but certainly not the only focus. There were plenty of other things mentioned too. Harping on the amount seems silly to me. If every example of a trope were listed or included the video would be who knows how long. Picking examples of a certain idea is not cherry picking. She isn't saying all games have this trope, just describing the trope and then providing examples of said trope in action.

Here, a father hacked Donkey Kong because his 3 year old daughter wanted to play as Pauline and save Mario. Happy now?

@mtcantor: I agree. I simply think there's no harm in letting people speak their minds, however offensive. That would be an enlightened approach.

@krullban: I've seen it, very cool mod. I do wish Nintendo would let us play as characters besides Mario. He's so utterly dull.

I agree that things are getting better or more diverse in newer games and thats fine. Some games have female protagonists or let you choose your gender. Nontheless most other females that appear in games aside from the main character fulfill their role as eye-candy and are more or less passive.

Someone mentioned Skyrim as an example against tropes, I can't remember a single female in this game that had an important role in form of a leader of some sort. Granted there were some minor female warriors and the whole middle-age theme of the world would not seem to fit gender equality, but this game definitely is not a counterexample.

Don't get me wrong, Skyrim is a great game and I do not want it changed. But when I imagine myself as a female that likes to play action oriented games my chances are very slim to find a game without the obligatory trope in it. Even if those tropes recently began to shoot back and defend their selfes to a certain degree (like in the uncharted series) they are still there and will be in need of rescue at some point (and afterwards reward the hero with a smooch).

At least for me this discussion is not a black or white thing. Tropes do not need to vanish, but a greater variety of story plots for games can't hurt either. And as some pointed out things already became much better, but I don't think we're done just yet.

PS: Yesterday I finished Azuras Wrath, don't get me started on this game ;)

Because this isn't a video criticizing women's roles in long running Nintendo franchises. You want to do that, I'll hop right aboard that train. And for the record, I was one of the many who were mad as hell about Samus' characterization in Other M.

But unless the videos on this trope are only intended to examine the historical prevalence of the trope, and then suggest how far we've come as a medium, I think it's ridiculous to say that her cherry picked examples are a better indication of the trope's modern prevalence than a random sample from your own game collection.

Sorry @jgf but I strongly disagree that Skyrim is a great game, especially in the writing department. Fallout 3 was the same. Horribly contrived and clichéd plots with huge holes in logic everywhere. No one in these Bethesda role-playing games is more than a cardboard cut-out. The player character is always the center of the universe, which doesn't help.

I think you need to wait for the next video then. Establishing that this trope forms the basis for two of the biggest franchises in classic gaming more than meets her burden. She isn't suggesting that the trope is the backbone of all gaming, rather she just need to show that it is significant. She does this.

As far as how that trope applies to modern games, we will see in Part 2.

@spaceinsomniac: She will lose all my respect if she fails to address Other M's handling of Samus. It must be done.

Well, you're not remembering correctly, then. There's no female Grey Beard or anything, but there are plenty of females in important roles. Not to mention the whole fact that the Dragonborn is a woman, if you want her to be.

This female leader came to mind almost immediately: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Astrid

@endurancefun: How dare you don't like my beloved skyrim ;). But you got a point and made me curious: Do you know any similar open-world games that are better in this regard?

@jgf: I personally am a big fan of New Vegas and how it approaches The Courier. He's instrumental in how the world develops, but he's clearly not a superhuman and starts the story after almost being murdered. The game's good at letting the faction leaders like House, Caesar and the god damned NCR bureaucracy, walk all over you when it suits them. It just so happens to have plenty of interesting female and gay characters without being exploitative, in my humble opinion.

Sorry if this is kind of an obvious one to pick. It makes a great comparison to the contrived story in Skyrim which seemed like too obvious a mechanic to make you explore the world and otherwise felt pointless.

@spaceinsomniac: Thanks, I did not know about her. So there is at least one, good to know. However I managed to play through the game without ever meeting her. So shes more like an exception of the rule.

Just imagine all genders were reversed in Skyrim. That would seem like a weird game directly taken out of the brain of a female supremacy ideologist. So I think my point stands that Skyrim is not the perfect counterexample.

@endurancefun: I'll definitively try that one out, thanks.

Well, I'm bowing out of this one. Made the only reasonable contributions I intended to at the beginning then got dragged into the usual internet arguing saying things that I realise are just trying to win rather than an intelligent discussion. I'm still positive on the first video and expect the second will address the current issue of does it apply to modern games.

See you all for the next video to go round the same old points again!