I was thinking about my feelings towards them, and I realize I hate pirates. Especially when they pirate a game that really deserves good sales. I'm not saying DRM is at all good for consumers, or that all cases of piracy are completely unjust (downloading a very old, currently unavailable game that only a retailer / reseller would make money from?). With as many thousands of dollars I have spent on games and continue to spend, I feel like these people are personally ripping me off. Maybe if they didn't selfishly pirate games, I wouldn't be paying so much. It also seems that many gamers tolerate pirates too.
It's not a moral issue for me as much as it personally offends me. I'm not thinking about the developers, publishers, or even the industry as a whole. I'm thinking people are stealing things I pay money for.
What do you think of software pirates?
Send the ninja's!
I have a lot to say on the issue, but i've been there so many times i'm not going to bother yet again, I will say two things though, I hate them with a burning passion that will never die, and they are notthe reason you pay high prices for videogames. Videogames have the same profit margins and retailmarkups as DVDs, it just costs more to get the disc to you, and incur an addition 8 dollar fee ontop which goes to nintendo/ms/sony. The publisher only sees around 50% of that, the same as with DVDs.
The other thing I will say is about DRM, specifically for the PC platform (as other platforms it doesnt matter, because them being closed platforms in the first place is a form of DRM, and because it's an enclosed product, works just fine) and that is that unless something is done which can make it more appealing to users, and more consumer friendly (See the new 'Goo' method of DRM) it actually does nothing but harm the consumer. And this is quite removed from opinion, the main objective publishers have when setting about putting restrictive DRM into their PC games is to stop the game from leaking, fully playably onto the internet before the game is on store shelves. What happens after that they don't care about, which is part of what makes these draconian measures more frustrating, once release day is passed, and the pirates are happily playing their cracked version that they waited all of 3 days for, the harmful after effects for the legitimate consumer are too much to bear.
" I have a lot to say on the issue, but i've been there so many times i'm not going to bother yet again, I will say two things though, I hate them with a burning passion that will never die, and they are notthe reason you pay high prices for videogames. Videogames have the same profit margins and retailmarkups as DVDs, it just costs more to get the disc to you, and incur an addition 8 dollar fee ontop which goes to nintendo/ms/sony. The publisher only sees around 50% of that, the same as with DVDs.I worry about DRM moving on consoles now too. Just the fact that for downloaded games you're tied to account data and all of that crap.
The other thing I will say is about DRM, specifically for the PC platform (as other platforms it doesnt matter, because them being closed platforms in the first place is a form of DRM, and because it's an enclosed product, works just fine) and that is that unless something is done which can make it more appealing to users, and more consumer friendly (See the new 'Goo' method of DRM) it actually does nothing but harm the consumer. And this is quite removed from opinion, the main objective publishers have when setting about putting restrictive DRM into their PC games is to stop the game from leaking, fully playably onto the internet before the game is on store shelves. What happens after that they don't care about, which is part of what makes these draconian measures more frustrating, once release day is passed, and the pirates are happily playing their cracked version that they waited all of 3 days for, the harmful after effects for the legitimate consumer are too much to bear. "
If I'm ever locked out of a game I bought because of DRM, pirating or cracking the game is completely justified IMO. I hope the emulation scene on PC continues for that matter because it'd suck in 15 years when every 360 is dead and Xbox Live is changed radically so a 360 could never connect to it, if noone could play Castle Crashers.
While I agree somewhat, the realms of what coders can achieve in their spare time, without massive funding, has long since passed and we will be lucky if the PS2 sees a fully complete emulator. Regardless, the console itself is a form of DRM. It keeps things you don't want on your machine out, and things you do want, in (When I say you I mean the company putting out the machine) tieing things to your account is just an extension of that and is only causing problems indirectly, if the Xbox didnt have a failure rate so high, it wouldn't be a problem.
The Wii on the other hand, I have stopped buying downloadables for, and doubt I ever will again. They are tied to the console instead of an account, fuck that, fuck that right in the ass. No thank you Nintendo.
Unfortunately, whatever MS decides to do with Xbox Live, we will have to live with emulation or not, because each game required verification that your account has purchased it in order to play, now I don't know for sure because I havn't seen the source code for all/any of them, but the fact you cannot readily get them on *insert nefarious website here* suggest to me that in order to crack them it would either take some serious work, or a fake Xbox Live server (in a similar manner to those hacked MMO servers you may/may not have heard about)
The problem we are getting into now however, is that discussing the future involves discussing things in a manner that is less than vague, which I fear would be enough depth so as to position itself outside the rules of this forum. So i'll not discuss emulators/what if XBL is shut down/etc anymore than what's been said.
If you can't play, you shouldn't play. Theres no ifs, ands or buts. IF you have the time to be playing video games, you could be using that time working or getting money to pay for such games.
Piracy is all the more reason to support indie developers- no DRM, and your money goes only to the developers. That's a model I can support. I don't like the idea of paying for a game where only a fraction of it goes to the devs, and the rest goes to a chain of middlemen who put their meaningless 'seal of approval' on it.
On the DRM front. DRM is not meant to stop pirates, it's meant to stop legitimate purchasers from installing on multiple machines at the same time. Gaming cafes for example, they want gaming cafes to have to buy a copy for every computer they have, not just one and install it on dozens of machines.
Look at the Sims 3. EA and S(F)uckURom? Leaked and fully cracked over 2 weeks before launch date.
While I agree somewhat, the realms of what coders can achieve in their spare time, without massive funding, has long since passed and we will be lucky if the PS2 sees a fully complete emulator. Regardless, the console itself is a form of DRM. It keeps things you don't want on your machine out, and things you do want, in (When I say you I mean the company putting out the machine) tieing things to your account is just an extension of that and is only causing problems indirectly, if the Xbox didnt have a failure rate so high, it wouldn't be a problem.The Wii on the other hand, I have stopped buying downloadables for, and doubt I ever will again. They are tied to the console instead of an account, fuck that, fuck that right in the ass. No thank you Nintendo. Unfortunately, whatever MS decides to do with Xbox Live, we will have to live with emulation or not, because each game required verification that your account has purchased it in order to play, now I don't know for sure because I havn't seen the source code for all/any of them, but the fact you cannot readily get them on *insert nefarious website here* suggest to me that in order to crack them it would either take some serious work, or a fake Xbox Live server (in a similar manner to those hacked MMO servers you may/may not have heard about)The problem we are getting into now however, is that discussing the future involves discussing things in a manner that is less than vague, which I fear would be enough depth so as to position itself outside the rules of this forum. So i'll not discuss emulators/what if XBL is shut down/etc anymore than what's been said. "Yea I've noticed that emulation advancements have also slowed somewhat. We don't even have a fraction of a Xbox 1 emulator yet, and I thought it might be easy to make a high level emulator considering how close that hardware was to an off the shelf PC.
I agree consoles are DRM in an abstract way, but besides silly things like I can't put a 360 game in a PS3, they don't restrict user usage of the product. A SNES cart fits in a SNES and plays. The intention isn't digital rights management, the intent is to sell proprietary hardware.
All of this online activation and online rights storage (to be able to download a game) really really worries me. Already people run into problems with it all the time, I've lost my EA Store rights to redownload the Battlefield 2 booster packs...
"On the DRM front. DRM is not meant to stop pirates, it's meant to stop legitimate purchasers from installing on multiple machines at the same time. Gaming cafes for example, they want gaming cafes to have to buy a copy for every computer they have, not just one and install it on dozens of machines.Look at the Sims 3. EA and S(F)uckURom? Leaked and fully cracked over 2 weeks before launch date."
No, DRM is not for the purpose of making an extra couple hundred dollars out of gaming cafes.
It's purpose is to stop the game from leaking before, or on the same day as the product is officially released. Refered to as Zero Day leaks (and other names) as publishers hold the opinion (whether factual or otherwise) that this takes a huge portion of sales from the initial release due to consumer laziness, opinion of the product spreading before release, and product spoilers/etc.
If you seriously beleive it's to stunt a few gaming cafes, then you need to go and have a chat with someone who runs a business, they will tell you that the (implied) risk of losing thousands and thousands of dollars in sales is much more serious than losing a few hundred dollars to a couple of gaming cafes.
Stealing is stealing, no matter how you word it. Pirating is only hurting the developer's in that they won't recieve as much profits as they could, therefore hurting the funding of the sequel or their next project. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I find it hard to believe that if you stole a game from the internet and enjoy it, you would then go buy it. I'm sure it's true for some people, but I just don't believe that nonsense for the most part.
Regardless of how the money is divided up after it leaves your wallet is not even the point. That's the agreement the devs made with the publishers. Claiming that you don't want to purchase it because of how the money is split is absolutely rediculous. And with that logic in mind, it's apparent that one might already be aware of how the devs don't recieve all of your money - which is only hurting them more by not purchasing the product the right way.
"Hey I'd get this game if only the developer's would recieve all of the money, but since they don't I'm not going to give them anything." <- that is ludicrous.
" @CoverlessTech said:But the doesn't work. If that was truly the purpose of it then it would serve that purpose, it does not. As I said look at the Sims 3. That game was leaked and fully cracked more then 2 weeks before the launch date. If the purpose of DRM was to stop that then DRM fails hard and no one would ever use it."On the DRM front. DRM is not meant to stop pirates, it's meant to stop legitimate purchasers from installing on multiple machines at the same time. Gaming cafes for example, they want gaming cafes to have to buy a copy for every computer they have, not just one and install it on dozens of machines.Look at the Sims 3. EA and S(F)uckURom? Leaked and fully cracked over 2 weeks before launch date."No, DRM is not for the purpose of making an extra couple hundred dollars out of gaming cafes.It's purpose is to stop the game from leaking before, or on the same day as the product is officially released. Refered to as Zero Day leaks (and other names) as publishers hold the opinion (whether factual or otherwise) that this takes a huge portion of sales from the initial release due to consumer laziness, opinion of the product spreading before release, and product spoilers/etc.If you seriously beleive it's to stunt a few gaming cafes, then you need to go and have a chat with someone who runs a business, they will tell you that the (implied) risk of losing thousands and thousands of dollars in sales is much more serious than losing a few hundred dollars to a couple of gaming cafes. "
Yea, I think we can all agree on this: pirates of modern, easily obtainable games: bad. But pirates of old games nobody has heard of: good, sort of.
What do you guys think about pirating a game on PC when you already purchased that game on the 360 (not used). Do you think it's moral?
If you are pirating, you are not sticking it to "the man". You are not a freedom fighter helping to bring down a corrupt system. You are a lazy jerk who makes the rest of us pay more for games. You are also the reason that developers on the pc are forced to use drm in order to try to stop you. You don't have a right to play games. If you can't pay, then you can't play.
The fact that they are closer to off the shelf PC hardware is actually what makes them so hard to emulate. It sounds backwards, but it makes sense. You have to make software pretend to be another piece of hardware, with PC hardware. As the thing being emulated gets more complex, the resources required just to run it increase exponentially, not to mention all the problems you run into with modern technology, you have to get a modern cpu and graphics card to do the job of, well, itself, and in doing so create a huge amount of extra work for the hardware, like for example if you were going to perform an everyday task, except instead of just doing it, you have to make a manequin of yourself do that task, and you have someone standing over your shoulder asking for progress reports. Maybe not a directly applicable example but it carries the general idea.
Older hardware was so much simpler not just because it was older, it was so far removed from general PC hardware, and often contained RISC chips (reduced instruction) in order for them to better carry out specific tasks rather than broad tasks. It's kinda difficult to explain really. But yeah, it's totally possible with newer hardware, but PC hardware has to advance even more before that, and it would require a huge amount of time and money to develop, it's not something people can do in there spare time. And what with all the connectivity and online functionality, thats a whole pandoras box of things.
" What do you guys think about pirating a game on PC when you already purchased that game on the 360 (not used). Do you think it's moral? "Sell the 360 copy and buy the better version. With the price of PC and console games you would probably be able to get a close to 1:1 deal.
" What do you guys think about pirating a game on PC when you already purchased that game on the 360 (not used). Do you think it's moral? "I think it's generally close to 'OK' in either direction, but it depends on how much you paid for the first version. If you pirate Oblivion day one on PC but pick it up for $5 used on 360 2 years later, that's not right.
Personally I own Oblivion for PC, 360, and PS3 (well, buying it for PS3 was dumb because I never played it on that)
"@The_A_Drain said:" @CoverlessTech said:But the doesn't work. If that was truly the purpose of it then it would serve that purpose, it does not. As I said look at the Sims 3. That game was leaked and fully cracked more then 2 weeks before the launch date. If the purpose of DRM was to stop that then DRM fails hard and no one would ever use it.""On the DRM front. DRM is not meant to stop pirates, it's meant to stop legitimate purchasers from installing on multiple machines at the same time. Gaming cafes for example, they want gaming cafes to have to buy a copy for every computer they have, not just one and install it on dozens of machines.Look at the Sims 3. EA and S(F)uckURom? Leaked and fully cracked over 2 weeks before launch date."No, DRM is not for the purpose of making an extra couple hundred dollars out of gaming cafes.It's purpose is to stop the game from leaking before, or on the same day as the product is officially released. Refered to as Zero Day leaks (and other names) as publishers hold the opinion (whether factual or otherwise) that this takes a huge portion of sales from the initial release due to consumer laziness, opinion of the product spreading before release, and product spoilers/etc.If you seriously beleive it's to stunt a few gaming cafes, then you need to go and have a chat with someone who runs a business, they will tell you that the (implied) risk of losing thousands and thousands of dollars in sales is much more serious than losing a few hundred dollars to a couple of gaming cafes. "
Look, whatever, you can argue it if you like, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
Of course there are examples of times it doesn't do it's job, there are also examples of ships sinking (they are after all, designed not to sink)
But there are also a multitude other examples when it has done it's job, usually a game (provided it's not leaked super early by someone on the inside) is leaked by a store clerk, distributor, etc, and is not fully hacked/cracked/etc until a couple days after release. Whether rightly or wrongly, developers beleive those few days are crucial to getting sales from impatient consumers, and significantly reduce any loss of sales resulting from bad product experience (IE, the game is shit) spreading via word of mouth before the product is released.
Pirates for all platforms are going to exist either way. The best the industry can do is to adapt themselves to provide enough of the proper services to minimise the casual group of pirates down to their most hardcore demographic. Those guys? can't help them either way. I'm actually more concerned with hard-copy piracy in various nations rather than digital piracy. Look at Dragon ages 20gig install. Your cable must be really nice to download something like that.
" I was thinking about my feelings towards them, and I realize I hate pirates. Especially when they pirate a game that really deserves good sales. I'm not saying DRM is at all good for consumers, or that all cases of piracy are completely unjust (downloading a very old, currently unavailable game that only a retailer / reseller would make money from?). With as many thousands of dollars I have spent on games and continue to spend, I feel like these people are personally ripping me off. Maybe if they didn't selfishly pirate games, I wouldn't be paying so much. It also seems that many gamers tolerate pirates too.What kind of response did you think you would get? If you were looking for opposing views, you picked the wrong venue. Threads that talk about custom firmware for the psp got shutdown really quick in the past....you think people would openly discuss/admit to piracy knowing they will be reprimanded by staff?
It's not a moral issue for me as much as it personally offends me. I'm not thinking about the developers, publishers, or even the industry as a whole. I'm thinking people are stealing things I pay money for. "
Personally, I don't care what people do. I am lucky to have a decent job and can afford a couple games a month.
@Supermarius said:
" @The_A_Drain: I think food should have drm. You eat a meal at a restaurant. The chef has secretly added a slow acting, but lethal, poison to it. When you pay your bill, you get the antidote. Of course in this case DRM would stand for Delicious Rights Management. "Fail
"If you are pirating, you are not sticking it to "the man". You are not a freedom fighter helping to bring down a corrupt system. You are a lazy jerk who makes the rest of us pay more for games. You are also the reason that developers on the pc are forced to use drm in order to try to stop you. You don't have a right to play games. If you can't pay, then you can't play."
I said it before, i'll say it again. And i'm sure again, and again, and again until my throat bleeds.
Piracy is not the reason you pay more for games. The numbers (percentage wise) are roughly the same as DVD movies, publishers take around 50% of the retail price, and a further 8 dollar fee is incured by the console manufacturer. Believe it or not, it actually costs a lot of money to get the game to the store shelf, it's not a simple matter of "1 dollar per disc, and they are making 59 bucks out of me" after all the fees, cost of proffesionally producing the product, and the store and distributor cuts, it actually costs an avg of about 28 dollars PER DISC. With the developer taking the other 32 in order to pay for the development of the game.
An increase in demand for more experienced programmers, and higher numbers of artists producing highly detailed artwork is what is driving up the retail price each generation (nevermind the fact they went down for a long while, NES game used to be 70 dollars, and back then that was a lot more than 70 dollars now)
" What do you guys think about pirating a game on PC when you already purchased that game on the 360 (not used). Do you think it's moral? "The problem with doing that consistently is that, while you are paying the developer for their work, they don't know that. They don't know to ignore the fact that you pirated it AFTER paying them for the console version. When they look at piracy statistics, they don't see that, and they start flipping out about how 'PC GAMES ARN'T PROFITABLE!!!'
" @Diamond: The fact that they are closer to off the shelf PC hardware is actually what makes them so hard to emulate. It sounds backwards, but it makes sense. You have to make software pretend to be another piece of hardware, with PC hardware. As the thing being emulated gets more complex, the resources required just to run it increase exponentially, not to mention all the problems you run into with modern technology, you have to get a modern cpu and graphics card to do the job of, well, itself, and in doing so create a huge amount of extra work for the hardware, like for example if you were going to perform an everyday task, except instead of just doing it, you have to make a manequin of yourself do that task, and you have someone standing over your shoulder asking for progress reports. Maybe not a directly applicable example but it carries the general idea.Older hardware was so much simpler not just because it was older, it was so far removed from general PC hardware, and often contained RISC chips (reduced instruction) in order for them to better carry out specific tasks rather than broad tasks. It's kinda difficult to explain really. But yeah, it's totally possible with newer hardware, but PC hardware has to advance even more before that, and it would require a huge amount of time and money to develop, it's not something people can do in there spare time. And what with all the connectivity and online functionality, thats a whole pandoras box of things. "Yea I imagine Xbox 1 would be harder to do traditional emulation than any other previous platform, as it was more complicated. A high level emulator is kind of like reverse engineering games themselves. They're very efficient and a lot simpler but they require each game to be treated completely separately, among other issues.
Think about this though, MS has some Xbox 1 games emulated on 360 hardware. If they can do it, it's technically possible on other platforms.
The 360, PS3, and Wii still have RISC chips, but they're way more complicated than old RISC chips.
I don't expect 360 or PS3 would be even remotely close to being able to be emulated yet, but I hope the scene stays alive for the sake of preservation of gaming. If MS's next consoles all run XBLA games, or they all get ported to other platforms, I'm not so worried.
I can't be the only one that remembers MS stating publicly not so long ago that if they released a new console (if), that it would definately be compatible with all your downloaded games, achievements, game saves, etc.
" @Diamond said:Did you misinterpret what I typed or something? I'm anti-piracy. What I really wanted to hear is why some people are tolerant to pirates, and if people can somehow tell me something about why piracy is 'OK'. I haven't ever seen a thread here on Giant Bomb even get locked for the topic creator admitting he was a software pirate himself, let alone banned. There was a HUGE piracy thread here a month back or so." I was thinking about my feelings towards them, and I realize I hate pirates. Especially when they pirate a game that really deserves good sales. I'm not saying DRM is at all good for consumers, or that all cases of piracy are completely unjust (downloading a very old, currently unavailable game that only a retailer / reseller would make money from?). With as many thousands of dollars I have spent on games and continue to spend, I feel like these people are personally ripping me off. Maybe if they didn't selfishly pirate games, I wouldn't be paying so much. It also seems that many gamers tolerate pirates too.What kind of response did you think you would get? If you were looking for opposing views, you picked the wrong venue. Threads that talk about custom firmware for the psp got shutdown really quick in the past....you think people would openly discuss/admit to piracy knowing they will be reprimanded by staff?
It's not a moral issue for me as much as it personally offends me. I'm not thinking about the developers, publishers, or even the industry as a whole. I'm thinking people are stealing things I pay money for. "
Personally, I don't care what people do. I am lucky to have a decent job and can afford a couple games a month.
I don't expect pirates to pop up in my thread defending themselves if only for the stance I took, but I'm pretty satisfied that at least some people feel the same anger I do.
You work for your games, how do you tolerate people that don't? I'd love to hear you answer that (not being confrontational, I'd simply like to take the stress of it bothering me off my mind).
" @Diamond: The fact that they are closer to off the shelf PC hardware is actually what makes them so hard to emulate. It sounds backwards, but it makes sense. You have to make software pretend to be another piece of hardware, with PC hardware. As the thing being emulated gets more complex, the resources required just to run it increase exponentially, not to mention all the problems you run into with modern technology.......................You know what, microsoft should make an xbox PCI-e card that you can slot into the motherboard and let PC owners play xbox games. That'll effectively merge the 2 software markets into one and still let people who want to play it console style with someone who wants to play it PC style. They win either way, xbox or windows.
" @CoverlessTech said:And what I am saying is that DRM almost never serves that purpose. I know thats the excuse publishers use but I honestly can't remember the last big PC title that launched that wasn't cracked at least a day before hand(save for stuff like Valves games). That "reason" is bullshit because DRM simply does not serve that purpose. It's an excuse really, sure that is what they will say DRM is for but when DRM doesn't serve that purpose it simply cannot be for that purpose. I think therefore I am right? Well DRM doesn't stop before launch cracks therefore thats not the use."@The_A_Drain said:Look, whatever, you can argue it if you like, but you clearly don't know what you're talking about.Of course there are examples of times it doesn't do it's job, there are also examples of ships sinking (they are after all, designed not to sink)But there are also a multitude other examples when it has done it's job, usually a game (provided it's not leaked super early by someone on the inside) is leaked by a store clerk, distributor, etc, and is not fully hacked/cracked/etc until a couple days after release. Whether rightly or wrongly, developers beleive those few days are crucial to getting sales from impatient consumers, and significantly reduce any loss of sales resulting from bad product experience (IE, the game is shit) spreading via word of mouth before the product is released. "" @CoverlessTech said:But the doesn't work. If that was truly the purpose of it then it would serve that purpose, it does not. As I said look at the Sims 3. That game was leaked and fully cracked more then 2 weeks before the launch date. If the purpose of DRM was to stop that then DRM fails hard and no one would ever use it.""On the DRM front. DRM is not meant to stop pirates, it's meant to stop legitimate purchasers from installing on multiple machines at the same time. Gaming cafes for example, they want gaming cafes to have to buy a copy for every computer they have, not just one and install it on dozens of machines.Look at the Sims 3. EA and S(F)uckURom? Leaked and fully cracked over 2 weeks before launch date."No, DRM is not for the purpose of making an extra couple hundred dollars out of gaming cafes.It's purpose is to stop the game from leaking before, or on the same day as the product is officially released. Refered to as Zero Day leaks (and other names) as publishers hold the opinion (whether factual or otherwise) that this takes a huge portion of sales from the initial release due to consumer laziness, opinion of the product spreading before release, and product spoilers/etc.If you seriously beleive it's to stunt a few gaming cafes, then you need to go and have a chat with someone who runs a business, they will tell you that the (implied) risk of losing thousands and thousands of dollars in sales is much more serious than losing a few hundred dollars to a couple of gaming cafes. "
Anyways this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The exact purpose of DRM arguable but I'm sure we can both agree that it sucks either way and that pirates suck just as bad.
" @Diamond: I can't be the only one that remembers MS stating publicly not so long ago that if they released a new console (if), that it would definately be compatible with all your downloaded games, achievements, game saves, etc. "That seems to be the kind of 'promise' that is regularly broken. Whenever the new Xbox comes out it'll be one of the #1 things I'm looking for though.
You know what, microsoft should make an xbox PCI-e card that you can slot into the motherboard and let PC owners play xbox games. That'll effectively merge the 2 software markets into one and still let people who want to play it console style with someone who wants to play it PC style. They win either way, xbox or windows. "The only problem I see with that is how incredibly inefficient it would be. Unless they were selling a emulator, you'd have an extra GPU and CPU and other components installed in your PC.
Like I said, whatever you say buddy, i'm not going to discuss it with you because you don't have a clue, if you want to believe developers/publishers have a vendetta against the common consumer, or against internet/gaming cafes then go right ahead. But it's mentioned in several articles on gamasutra regularly, and is common knowledge. Whether or not it's fulfilling that purpose is an entirely seperate issue (and indeed why many are abandoning it, moving to consoles, or adopting more consumer friendly methods like Goo) that doesn't change the reason it's there.
@kitsune_conundrum said:
"@The_A_Drain said:" @Diamond: The fact that they are closer to off the shelf PC hardware is actually what makes them so hard to emulate. It sounds backwards, but it makes sense. You have to make software pretend to be another piece of hardware, with PC hardware. As the thing being emulated gets more complex, the resources required just to run it increase exponentially, not to mention all the problems you run into with modern technology.......................You know what, microsoft should make an xbox PCI-e card that you can slot into the motherboard and let PC owners play xbox games. That'll effectively merge the 2 software markets into one and still let people who want to play it console style with someone who wants to play it PC style. They win either way, xbox or windows."
No they couldn't. They don't own the rights to the chip, that's why they had to use software emulation for the 360.
" @kitsune_conundrum said:Not only that but you'd have to go through the trouble of finding the games. It's not like they would let you play pirated games on it and they probably wouldn't be profitable with a download service(see: cancellation of backward compatibility and ending xbox original downloads).You know what, microsoft should make an xbox PCI-e card that you can slot into the motherboard and let PC owners play xbox games. That'll effectively merge the 2 software markets into one and still let people who want to play it console style with someone who wants to play it PC style. They win either way, xbox or windows. "The only problem I see with that is how incredibly inefficient it would be. Unless they were selling a emulator, you'd have an extra GPU and CPU and other components installed in your PC. "
" @kitsune_conundrum said:No, its just the OS system to run the games itself. Hardware requirements will still be based off your current PC rig. So it'll run on the console and then with a set of minimum requirements like stuff now. Think of it like the mod chips people stuff into their consoles.You know what, microsoft should make an xbox PCI-e card that you can slot into the motherboard and let PC owners play xbox games. That'll effectively merge the 2 software markets into one and still let people who want to play it console style with someone who wants to play it PC style. They win either way, xbox or windows. "The only problem I see with that is how incredibly inefficient it would be. Unless they were selling a emulator, you'd have an extra GPU and CPU and other components installed in your PC. "
I really think bringing back demos would help be the way forward not only on consoles but PC.
And what I am saying is that DRM almost never serves that purpose. I know thats the excuse publishers use but I honestly can't remember the last big PC title that launched that wasn't cracked at least a day before hand(save for stuff like Valves games). That "reason" is bullshit because DRM simply does not serve that purpose. It's an excuse really, sure that is what they will say DRM is for but when DRM doesn't serve that purpose it simply cannot be for that purpose. I think therefore I am right? Well DRM doesn't stop before launch cracks therefore thats not the use.Anyways this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The exact purpose of DRM arguable but I'm sure we can both agree that it sucks either way and that pirates suck just as bad. "What about how they did it with sims 3? You basically get a stunted game until you register online(or by phone) like how they do it with adobe products.
You'd need a new disc drive with that as well. Really not efficient, you'd essentially be buying the console, in bits. As a regular consumer PC disc drive cannot read Xbox games without specifically designed software (and i'm not talking PC software, i'm talking about needing to flash the drive in order to let it read xbox games, which simply wouldn't be able to be sold as a product. It's too complicated (and risky) a procedure for general consumers)
Not only that but you'd have to go through the trouble of finding the games. It's not like they would let you play pirated games on it and they probably wouldn't be profitable with a download service(see: cancellation of backward compatibility and ending xbox original downloads). "I don't see the trouble of finding games? We're basically merging xbox and PC into 1 so effectively we're expanding both markets and besides, also, with a full PC, you can fully realise download services (especially if you plug your PC into the living room tv like me). I think the biggest shift in mindset is to realise that the PC is a workstation and that gaming is just a dish on the side of the platter.
" @kitsune_conundrum: You'd need a new disc drive with that as well. Really not efficient, you'd essentially be buying the console, in bits. As a regular consumer PC disc drive cannot read Xbox games without specifically designed software (and i'm not talking PC software, i'm talking about needing to flash the drive in order to let it read xbox games, which simply wouldn't be able to be sold as a product. It's too complicated (and risky) a procedure for general consumers) "Aren't they both just DVD drives? I'm not sure on the specific hardware locks. I'm clearing oversimplifying things alot by just stuffing "everything that needs to make it work" into 1 chip that plugs into a PCI-e (theyre fast and usually have spare slots on a average motherboard). But I understand it would need a fairly radical shift in market thinking. Think of it as streamlining, if you think the PC gaming market is dying, just kill it and replace it with its younger brother.
I believe that some companies deserver their games to be pirated. For example, the guys who did the god awful Legendary, or the people behind the last Soldier of Fortune. But then, other developers dont deserve being pirated, as they give us a great game that required lots of effort to pull.
Now, off from the game perspective, there is a big human perspective. I understand that, for example, in my country piracy is big (Argentina by the way), as salaries are low, and the tax on technology is sky high (double the US price and our basic salary is 4 times smaller than in the US). So I understand in these cases that this happens, specially when there is an actual market to exploit as Sony is doing currently (they even brought the PS3 which may seem stupid for some of you, but here that movement from a legal business is BIG). So in that case, I understand.
But then, we receive that the places with the largest pirats communities are developed countries actually, and not, some god forsaken land. So I hate pirats like that.
But, what I also hate is the guy who thinks he is smarter than the rest because he got the game for free, and most of the times, weeks earlier than the rest of us.
I do like modding though, and that is not ilegal, and it lets you access way more games than you thought, or in the case of the 360, it inceases its lifetime.
Your(as well as publishers) reasoning to DRM is that is stops pre-launch leaks. Logic would tell anyone that that is a load of bull, DRM simply does not do that, therefore it can't be the purpose of DRM.
DRM on the other hand IS forcing gaming cafes to buy multiple copies of games. Thus LOGICALLY it is the better use of DRM. Even if it is not the explicite reason or a desired result; it is the result.
I'm not saying that making gaming cafes buy multiple copies is the reason they implement DRM. I am saying it's pretty much the only decent result DRM has ever shown.
Also, with all the consortiums and alliances between hardware and software developers these days to introduce standards. It's actually fairly easy to introduce a new feature as a standard since everybody earns a piece of the pie.
" I believe that some companies deserver their games to be pirated. For example, the guys who did the god awful Legendary, or the people behind the last Soldier of Fortune. But then, other developers dont deserve being pirated, as th................If the games are shit, why play it at all?
Moderator Note: Fail to read and understand at your own risk!
- Make sure you've read the Forum FAQ to understand our stance on piracy and illegal activities. In short providing links, information or generally saying "dude I totally just downloaded game X from site Y" is not cool or allowed.
- Those self righteous few who feel the need to attack, insult and abuse users who may admit or agree with pirating games should realise that is considered trolling and flaming of another user and we won't tolerate that one bit.
- Lets try and be civil, constructive, productive and mature with the discussion here. Piracy is something that can be discussed with a positive outcome, let us not devolve into a group of rabid dogs snapping at eachother.
Pirating anything (movies, television shows, music, print media, video games etc) is illegal. No one can dispute that. But on a moral level is it wrong? Just because it is illegal doesn't make it wrong or right, it just makes it illegal, outlawed, banned if you will.
When a game is released in the Americas and Europe not every region and country within these two continents receives the same release date, or one at all in some cases, as the rest of the region does. Most European game release dates are for Western Europe only with much of Eastern Europe and Russia receiving delayed releases of up to 6 months or more and in some cases the game is never released there. And if it is the regional dialogue and language options just don't cover the Russian / Eastern European languages and the price of the games there is usually on a ridiculous level for the people living there.
So when you live in a country or area where games are either released half a year to a full year after everywhere else, with no regional dialogue options for you to understand or in some cases the game is never released so you don't have the option of even buying it in your country, what do you do? Do you pay extortionate amounts to import it from overseas / borders and still be faced with the problem of not being able to fully understand the dialogue due to lack of language options? What if the game is region locked as well?
In these cases the easiest solution for people is to pirate the game(s) since there is little to no support for such countries and regions from the industry. Valve mentioned this in an interview not so long ago in regards to their position on piracy. Worldwide release dates, worldwide support and help is needed to keep people in such situations from fueling the piracy fires. I tell you now it is really easy for people in the West to say "get a job, save the money, buy the game" but when you live in a country where minimum wage is subpar, education and economy of the country is poor and releases are delayed so much longer after everyone else is playing the newest games. You can't fault people for resorting to piracy in these situations.
Obviously I'm not saying everyone who pirates games is in a situation as I described above, some people just want something for nothing. Plain and simple. But there are all sorts of factors to take into account in regards to why people pirate games.
Personally I couldn't care if people pirate video games or not. I would rather the industry realise that you just cannot stop piracy, accept it and stop trying to deny it. If people want it bad enough without paying money for it then they will find a way. The music and movie industry has been through this exact same thing before many years ago and they've come to accept the fact you can't stop people from pirating a song or movie however much you try.
The key is to simply cater to providing the best experience you can for the people who are willing to spend money on your product. This is half the reason a lot of the new forms of DRM fail so god damned hard because they don't do anything but hinder the honest consumer. If DRM worked then we wouldn't have pirated games, all DRM accomplishes is to piss off the player who spent money on a game legally.
Well I usually buy used games. Actually it is quite uncommon for me to buy a new game. Does that hurt the developers just as much as pirating? Perhaps. But there might be a key difference because when you buy a game from a retailer, the retailer will usually take note of that and see that the game has some demand. But do you guys think the same way? Is buying used the equivaent of piracy itself?
Regarding to what I think of software pirates: I think they suck, and if they can't afford to buy games they should look elsewhere. Also, many pirates are religious believe it or not. I know a pirate actually and I keep telling him it's illegal but he simply responds by saying "No. There are websites for downloading games that are legal." So perhaps some of the pirates are too blind to see that this isn't morally ethical, legal, or legit.
DRM on the other hand IS forcing gaming cafes to buy multiple copies of games. Thus LOGICALLY it is the better use of DRM. Even if it is not the explicite reason or a desired result; it is the result. I'm not saying that making gaming cafes buy multiple copies is the reason they implement DRM. I am saying it's pretty much the only decent result DRM has ever shown. "That's fairly interesting, lanshops have most to benefit from digital distribution. Think of all the logistics issues it'll solve.
@scarhawk said:
"Used games piss off developers and publishers. Piracy pisses off everyone.Well I usually buy used games. Actually it is quite uncommon for me to buy a new game. Does that hurt the developers just as much as pirating? Perhaps. But there might be a key difference because when you buy a game from a retailer, the retailer will usually take note of that and see that the game has some demand. But do you guys think the same way? Is buying used the equivaent of piracy itself?
"
" @DragoonKain1687 said:Dont know, maybe to know how bad it is. Maybe because if I want to badmouth something, I want to know what it is about." I believe that some companies deserver their games to be pirated. For example, the guys who did the god awful Legendary, or the people behind the last Soldier of Fortune. But then, other developers dont deserve being pirated, as th................If the games are shit, why play it at all? "
Dont know, maybe to know how bad it is. Maybe because if I want to badmouth something, I want to know what it is about. "Then as a legitimate customer, you take a risk in everything you buy (I'm not sure about return policies, theres no such thing where im from). Thats why, we depend on demos, word-of-mouth, marketing, written reviews...etc. How else can we start threads like "Worst game you've bought recently". 50-60 dollars is a fairly decent amount and I'm sure most of us will do at least some research before purchase.
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