Which perspective do you think is best for stealth?

Do you think stealth games like the Metal Gear series and Splinter Cell would have been better if they were played entirely in the first person like the Thief series? I recently played Metal Gear Solid 2 and when shooting I mostly used the first person aiming mode. It got me thinking if that would be a viable perspective to use for the entire game. We've already seen games like Mirrors Edge do unconventional mechanics in the first person perspective, not to mention the mostly forgotten Xbox title Breakdown, so the melee and jumping could likely be done.

I think this would greatly contribute to the stealth aspect of the games. It would make it more difficult but much more interesting and intuitive. It would also make them more immersive in my opinion. Seeing the character just makes it too immersion breaking. In reality you would not be able to see over that crate you were hiding behind.

By the way I'm not saying these games should have been first person, I'm just wondering if they would be better that way.

So what do you think? Should all stealth games be like Thief and go first person, or are they better in third person like Metal Gear and Splinter Cell?

The problem with first person is that you don't see anywhere near as much. I hesitate to even say first person is more realistic because you don't get the peripheral vision most people have in real life. Yeah, it's more realistic than taking cover behind something and seeing over it.

I dunno. I think there's plenty of room for both to exist (even though there aren't many stealth games these days), but I prefer third person (as I do for just about all games).

I would say a toggle between two modes would be best. I'm going to use Hitman: Blood Money as an example. I wanted to love first-person in it but I found myself using third-person almost exclusively, purely because it feels less rough around the edges. Done right, first-person would probably feel more intense, for you'd see your enemy and you would be seeing them from the eyes of your character. To me at least that would be better if it was done to perfection. Done badly and it would simply fall apart, so it's a fine line that developers of stealth games would have to straddle.

Depends on how well it's done. Both can be as good as each other. As long as Ubisoft doesn't touch it.

4th person, bitches.

I think the way the game conveys your level of stealth is much more important than the perspective. Whether that be "game-y" methods like stealth meters or not I think a lot of games don't particularly balance the "rules" or their stealth systems with common sense. It always breaks the immersion when I'm laying down in a few tufts of sparse grass 2 feet away from someone but completely invisible for example

Splinter Cell's perspective is the only one that gives you a good sense of how your body is situated within the environment, which is key to stealth. It also gives the best peripheral vision. It also lets you look around corners.

It is categorically better than the others.

for me it depends if i am using guns or not

There's a very good reason that Deus Ex Human Revolution pulls out to third person when you pop into cover. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to see around it.

Now, of course, you can make a completely first person stealth game and use sound instead of sight to tell where things are, but that's a lot more difficult and a bit more unwieldy.

@nintendoeats said:

Splinter Cell's perspective is the only one that gives you a good sense of how your body is situated within the environment, which is key to stealth. It also gives the best peripheral vision. It also lets you look around corners.

It is categorically better than the others.

I agree with this really, but I don't think first person stealth is bad. It's a bit harder but it has other advantages. I've enjoyed stealth in games like Thief and Deus Ex plenty.

I've never played Thief *gasp*, so all I can offer on how well first person would work is a guess.

However, I find that third person is a very good system for me. It looks polished and it gives you better awareness of your own position. Also, it tends to give me a better perception of enemy locations, which is useful when there are a large number of enemies. It also helps prevent me from shooting a motherfucker and getting spotted by some guy I didn't see.

3rd person. No question.

@Video_Game_King said:

4th person, bitches.

So that's like.. watching someone else play the game?

Third person is preferable, but first person is great for that extreme paranoia feeling.

@newhaap:

No, it's more like third person, but with time instead of people. It's a hard concept to explain.

@ShaggE said:

Third person is preferable, but first person is great for that extreme paranoia feeling.

Yeah there is something to that. First person stealth was always kind of scary in a way that third person never was. Stepping out in the open, because you didn't have all that spacial awareness, became a big choice. I remember sitting in vents in Deus Ex just scoping out and readying myself to finally make a move.

It took some planning and if you got spotted it would be pretty startling in a way.

@Stephen_Von_Cloud: Both great games to be sure, I'm not denying that.

First person stealth is almost as awful as first person platforming. Just... no.

@MysteriousBob said:

First person stealth is almost as awful as first person platforming. Just... no.

I'm glad Ion Storm and DICE said just yes instead. You just have to do it well.

I think first person can be potentially better, given that you'r seeing a lot less then in third person. It makes me feel more weak, whereas in third person you'r never scared of not seeing something.

Ugg.. You shouldn't be able to talk about stealth games unless you've at least played thief 2.

Its like someone talking about fps game design that has only played games after halo.

@RedRavN said:

Ugg.. You shouldn't be able to talk about stealth games unless you've at least played thief 2.

Its like someone talking about fps game design that has only played games after halo.

While I see your point and more or less agree. There's a coming time when no one will have played games prior to halo. And that doesn't necessarily make their opinion less valid.

Radar. I don't remember what MGS looked like because of this.

Third person is worlds more functional.

Second person. I meant that as a joke initially but I think it has potential.

Considering how I'm top contributor to the Thief 2 page I think people can guess what my preference is. Still, Third Person Perspective still works just as fine. I just prefer first person since stealth games tend to have a more tense atmosphere. But if you're gonna make a stealth based game with a first person perspective then it's essential that you give us a lean button 'cause man, where did they go?

Some games do first person stealth right, but it doesn't always work for me. Third person however, has worked more often. Having said that, both views need some sort of indication as to just how stealthy you are being.

Arguments can be made for both, why don't we just have games with both perspectives. Oh wait...

I like having the option for both like in Hitman: Blood Money and Deus Ex: Human Revolution. I remember Thief 3 having the option to toggle and that game was still atmospheric as all hell.

third person is best. first person makes the game hard to see as you can't see a lot.

@RedRavN said:

Ugg.. You shouldn't be able to talk about stealth games unless you've at least played thief 2.

Its like someone talking about fps game design that has only played games after halo.

So here I am, about to wax lyrical over the mighty Thief 2, and how it's easily the best stealth game whatever your perspective, when I stumble upon this post.

I don't want to appear to be on his side, because he's a cunt. So what do I do?

Fuck it - I wholeheartedly recommend you play Thief 2. You can probably get it for buttons on Steam - and I promise it wont turn you into an elitist asshole.

I played the stealth type in Deux Ex, I did not like how I can see past corners. Deus Ex: Human Revolution sort of fixed that problem. If first person stealth games are done like HR then I would consider playing it (Haven't played Thief so no comment).

@Bribo:

So because I think thief 2 is required gaming to understand stealth gameplay from a first person perspective that makes me a cunt and an elitist asshole? Maybe if you don't want to "appear to be on my side" you should not agree with me.

Also, if you personally attack me again I will report you to the moderators. By your logic, apparently the only way to save people from my incendiary opinion on games that you happen to also share is to curse me out.

@RedRavN said:

@Bribo:

So because I think thief 2 is required gaming to understand stealth gameplay from a first person perspective that makes me a cunt and an elitist asshole? Maybe if you don't want to "appear to be on my side" you should not agree with me.

Also, if you personally attack me again I will report you to the moderators. By your logic, apparently the only way to save people from my incendiary opinion on games that you happen to also share is to curse me out.

You're right. The insults were uncalled for. I apologise.

I prefer top down/Isometric views to be honest.

2nd person from the siren games.

I don't care much, I just prefer first person in general though. Particularly when the FOV isn't Borderlands-esque. Thing is, no one tries first person stealth because everyone thinks it has to be third person, so all the big stealthy games end up being third person. I can see why, but I'd love for first person to get a little more love. I find it more immersive, and I really want to be immersed in a stealthy game. Because who doesn't wanna be a sneaky spy? But I like it either way, honestly. First person isn't impossible, it'd just likely be more challenging and require you to do things a certain way. A good first person cover system or at least the ability to lean left and right would be needed. Stealth games are a little to easy for my liking, I think it'd be cool to have to actually use techniques you'd use in real life to perform stealthy operations. ie, not having a supernatural ability to see around and through objects. Having to listen, look at shadows, and roll out around corners would be more interesting to me than "Run to cover".

I think it's the same issue that Mirror's Edge found with it's critics much of the time. Because it requires unusual and not particularly gamey skills, it can be frustrating. But I loved the hell out of Mirror's Edge, because it didn't do what most "platformers" did, regardless of perspective. It was challenging and demanding but that was pretty cool, and it made you feel awesome when you were able to grasp it. I feel the same way about Arma, which does a fairly decent job of giving you the basic abilities a human soldier uses, from the ability to look, aim, and move in independent directions, to rolling out around corners and taking cover, without giving you all of the damage resistance, enhanced awareness,

@MysteriousBob said:

First person stealth is almost as awful as first person platforming. Just... no.

First person platforming is fine, platforming in shooters is bad. Climbing doesn't count, either. Although it's rarely the strong point. It's more just that it's often considered boring and tedious, then it is broken. For example, in a game like Duke Nukem, it was awkward and shitty because it was poorly designed and much too lengthy. In something like HL2, while there were plenty who didn't enjoy it, it was usually quick enough and interesting enough that you didn't mind. It helped establish the feeling that you were on a journey, rather than a warpath. And thanks to Valve's testing, rarely got you confused, frustrated, or lost.

I would hate it, the third person camera gives the character the situational awareness they need to not get caught.

With FPS primarily using the console FoV (for a long view of the screen, so it constrains the view to no peripheral in any way), I think 3rd person is the only way to do it without some very 'cheap' failures or a lot of careful design around the fact that a player can only see through a tube in front of their face and has no 'bonus' situational awareness to make up for the limited view into the game world.

I mean everyone's pretty clearly laid out the main distinction, first person makes you more involved in the game world but makes the stealth more difficult.

Personally I suck at stealth games so I take every advantage I can get. When I tried to play Thief I just didn't have the situational awareness to sneak around like a badass, and thats usually the fun of a stealth game. Gotta go with third person though I can imagine first person is sublime when it works.

Overhead view - just like old times. Now we're talking.

For stealth based games I honestly feel that third person is best. When you are literally inches away from an AI character to the point where an out of line toe ruins your stealth you need to be able to see where the parts of your body are. You need to see how fast your moving, how visible you are, where you are, what's in your periphery, and so on.

Ideally developers would give the player a choice of first or third person, but when have developers ever been ideal. Minimize workload and maximize profits is the name of the game.

@SethPhotopoulos said:

Overhead view - just like old times. Now we're talking.

Man I don't know how I used to do it. By the time Snake Eater came out I couldn't even play that game for more than a couple hours before getting too annoyed with camera. I didn't play any more of the game til Subsistence, which I beat and loved.

I do like that kind of view for some games but not stealth anymore.