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#51 Posted by Zelyre (1127 posts) -
@zeik said:

@abendlaender said:

Western RPGs absolutely DO have grinding, but they are much, much smarter about it. "Grinding" is basically doing sidequests, which is obiously a much more entertaining way to "grind".

Except games like Elder Scrolls, where there is absolutely straight up (and somewhat poorly implemented) grinding, given how the skill system works. Oblivion and Skyrim have worse grinding mechanics than most JRPGs that come to mind.

Really? I'm going to have to disagree with that. Both Oblivion and Skyrim's base game had level scaling. You could skip content and still be able to complete the main quest without any issues. If you want to grind out your enchanting and blacksmithing to 100, that's all on you. Remove those two skills and you essentially have a system that simply allows you to create a class by using the skills you enjoy using. Oblivion penalized you for grinding - enemy encounters got harder the higher level you got, so if you decided to sit and grind say... athleticism and evocation, you were screwed.

In a game like Baldur's Gate, combat was more like a puzzle. Once an area was cleared, you could travel to and fro without issue. Side quests gave you an opportunity for more combat, which meant more XP; but it also gave small bits of story, even if it didn't relate to the main quest.

In ye olde JRPs, you'd hit brick walls called bosses. And I'm not talking about bosses like Ruby and Emerald which boiled down to, "Hey, grind out chocobos for Knights of the Round. Then grind out Mimic materia. Then grind it out a few more times so you get copies. Oh yeah, make sure you're level 99!" To this day, I have no idea why Ruby/Emerald/Diamond existed. No one said, "Hey, good job for killing that giant thing terrorizing us!" You just got a ton of gil, XP, and an ultimate weapon that'd help you take down the next super-boss.

There were main plot bosses that would simply swat you down in a few hits if you weren't level X. Grind out an additional 5 levels and that boss became a challenge.Cast Ultima? Why yes, I'd like that! Equip this magicite? Now, to the Veldt and grind that shit out! Awesome, Celes, Locke, Terra, and Mog are level 99. Time to beat the game. Oh. I -have- to use every party member? Well, back to The Veldt to level up Strogoss, Realm, Umaro, and Gau. (I mean really, who used Umaro and Gau?)

Then you have things like FF8's draw system where you simply repeatedly drew from creatures for spells.

#52 Edited by Zeik (2223 posts) -

@zelyre: I guess it depends on how you look at it. You can beat Skyrim on the normal difficulty by just attacking with a melee weapon until everything is dead. My problem with that game is that to play how I really wanted and use the skills I really wanted I definitely had to do more than that. If I wanted to play a stealthy assassin that uses cool Illusion magic like Invisibility I'll never get there in a reasonable amount of time without going out of my way to grind out my Illusion skill.

There are JRPGs with those kinds of walls that you couldn't beat without grinding, but it's been a very very long time since that was common in JRPGs.

#53 Edited by EXTomar (4500 posts) -

In my opinion, the reason why it feels like the Disgaea is permissible while grinding in other games are not is because of the core design. In Disgaea games, grinding is supported because "end game goals" are clearly presented which the "normal game" can not support. In basic terms, if you want to beat a monster in Disgaea game the player needs to build a team that is "stat matched" against them by any means necessary. If that means transmigrating dozens of times then that works. If that means going into Item World a dozen times then that works too. If that means building up HL and Mana to unlock a specific scenario to steal all of the items then that is fine as well. Importantly it is all optional.

What are examples of bad grinding?

Grinding to fight against randomness. If an item has 0.001% chance of dropping then some will elect to kill that thing over and over and over and over and over until it drops. Disgaea games have this too and it was supremely frustrating.

Grinding to beat an unknown opponent. This is really bad because it changes grinding as an optional exercise to a requirement. Is your team strong enough to beat the dragon at the bottom of a dungeon? You don't know and the game wont' tell you if you are or not unless you go down and try. Its kind of bad if the player wins and disaster if the player does not so grinding to over-level the content is encouraged. In Disgaea games, although "stat matching" is a good start the problem is that special abilities are often "wild cards" where how hard they hit is driven by their stats but that often doesn't reveal secondary effects which is highly annoying.

#54 Posted by MonetaryDread (1993 posts) -

OP's asking two different questions here:

1) Why is there a strong association between "grinding" and RPGs?

2) If "grinding" is so prevalent in RPGs, is it justified?

The reason 'grinding' exists in RPG's goes back to the original Dragon Quest. The designer said that his goal was to create a difficult game that anyone could finish, all they had to do was put a little extra time into it. I feel that this is a good way to design a game because I do not believe that games have to be challenging to be enjoyable. I also enjoy the idea of having a progression system that rewards the time you have invested into a title, it gives me motivation to continue when I normally might have quit.

#55 Edited by Jeust (10480 posts) -

@rollingzeppelin said:

It's a bit old now, but I was loving FFX until it got to the mountainous region and I started losing battle after battle, then I realised I would have to go back into the region I just spent hours trying to beat in order to level up Tidus et al, until they were powerful enough to take on the random encounters in that region. That was probably the first game that I enjoyed but didn't finish.

Funny thing! The same happened to me against a boss near the end. I tried my best game and when the battle was in the latter half I was destroyed. I had to level up my party. As I hated the turn-base combat, I ended up giving up on the game, despite the fact that I was loving the story and mythos.

#56 Edited by Jeust (10480 posts) -

@zevvion said:

Great, now I don't have to make a new thread.

I was wondering if Lost Odyssey is still worth playing today. I always wanted to play it because it's supposedly the spiritual successor to Final Fantasy X, a game that I loved a lot. But I'm also worried it may not have aged well and I heard from some people that it's way too grind-heavy.

Can anyone give me some advice on that game?

It isn't too grind-heavy. I haven't grind at all in the game, and have a good level, but... the last dvd is bullshit in my opinion. Every boss battle has a gimmick to itself. A limitation of attacks effective on them, or a pattern in which to approach the fights, which made me give up on finishing the game.

#57 Posted by IzunaDrop (132 posts) -

@zevvion: I have found sections in the early-middle sections of Lost Odyssey to have required grinding, and is case in point for grind mechanics in JRPGs. For example, I will cruise through a dungeon with few problems, but then the boss obliterates me. However, running through the dungeon 10 times doesnt even give me the experience necessary to grind up to a level suited to the boss.

And so what is an otherwise fantastic game (the lore......drool) has sat unplayed for several years.

#58 Posted by Miyuki (176 posts) -

I don't mind a little grinding, as it usually just means I didn't fight all the battles I should have on the way to a boss. Older j-rpgs had a lot more, but I haven't found any I mind since PS1 era. Many games mask the grinding with lots of sidequests (the recent Shin Megami Tensei IV for 3ds was excellent at this) so it feels like a natural progression. The bad games are the ones that force you to fight the same battles in the same area for hours, and I feel like there aren't many of those these days.

#59 Posted by Sargon (16 posts) -

For me, grinding dates back to the original Dragon Warrior on NES. I don't know how many tens of hours I spent walking back and forth on the overworld map to repeatedly run into monsters for gold and XP. Without that grinding, or a Game Genie, there is no way I would have ever been able to defeat the Demon Lord.

#60 Posted by Hunter5024 (5544 posts) -

I can't remember ever having to grind to get through the campaign in a shooter, a platformer, or a fighting game.

#61 Edited by Canteu (2821 posts) -

You never really need to grind in any old school JRPG's that I can think of. Most of the time people grinding is to make up for lack of mechanic knowledge. You can get through all of the old FF's with like, 20-30 mins of grinding max, each game.

People associate grinding with RPG's because they did it themselves instead of learning how to play with skill or knowledge, instead they brute force through overleveling.

Frankly if you're grinding now, it's probably for extra content, money or items, never progression (unless you're unwilling to experiment and learn).

@caleYou killed about 5000 Furbolgs IIRC.

There, I did it for you, you monster!

@zelyre 1997 is "Ye Olde" now?

#62 Posted by CornBREDX (4815 posts) -

All MMOs have some element of grinding- even when they try to mask it.

A lot of JRPGs (even good ones) sometimes require you to fight more than you may want to in order to level up enough to continue on with the story.

Western RPGs (especially Bioware) most recently started adding filler side quests. Western RPGs grind generally is not the same, it's generally just filler content that is dull to play through and may or may not be required (often its not required).

I have always known RPGs to have a grind in some capacity because it takes things from life and boils them down into stats that become increased by activity. The ongoing use of that activity is a grind. Much like when people call going to work "back to the grind."

I don't mind the grind so much as how fulfilling the grind is, personally. That's something a lot of RPGs get wrong. MMOs generally try to make the grind interesting- because really in an RPG you cant totally do away with the grind or there would be nothing to work for- but even MMOs can get it wrong sometimes.

#63 Posted by JJWeatherman (14557 posts) -

"Why do people strongly associate RPG's with 'grinding.'"

Oh, I don't know. It could have something to do with the fact that there's commonly a lot of grinding in RPGs.

I'm shaking my head at this thread.

#64 Posted by Zeik (2223 posts) -

"Why do people strongly associate RPG's with 'grinding.'"

Oh, I don't know. It could have something to do with the fact that there's commonly a lot of grinding in RPGs.

I'm shaking my head at this thread.

Which is exactly the common misconception about RPGs that people are talking about.

#65 Posted by RenegadeSaint (1523 posts) -

I agree with most of the comments above with the following addition:

I believe this is a common complaint simply because most people don't like any battles in RPGs. Therefore, they see all fighting outside of the story as grinding. In reality, grinding is mostly a thing of the past (think NES, SNES, and PS1 eras). Most RPGs (and really most games in general) now follow a very linear progression and don't interrupt your forward momentum just for you to level your characters. Of course, these are broad generalizations and grinding still exists in a wide array of games (especially MMOs), it's just not nearly as prevalent as it used to be.

#66 Posted by MormonWarrior (2541 posts) -

Not to sound condescending, but you must not have played very many RPG's in the 90's and even early 00's. Grinding was an accepted part of nearly every rpg then. 60 hours was normal and it was fully possible to get to the final boss and be woefully under leveled.

Happened to me in both Final Fantasy VIII and IX. I was able to cheese my way through most of the game and run away from almost every battle since I was more interested in the world, characters and story than the battle system...I had to full-on restart the games because it was so bad and there weren't clear, easy areas to grind out levels at that point.

#67 Posted by Wiseman4545 (15 posts) -

I can't remember ever having to grind to get through the campaign in a shooter, a platformer, or a fighting game.

Fighting games most definitely have grinding. If you want to do more than just mash buttons you'll spend many many hours grinding it out in the training room. Frankly it's one of the grindiest genres out there.

#68 Posted by Hunter5024 (5544 posts) -

@hunter5024 said:

I can't remember ever having to grind to get through the campaign in a shooter, a platformer, or a fighting game.

Fighting games most definitely have grinding. If you want to do more than just mash buttons you'll spend many many hours grinding it out in the training room. Frankly it's one of the grindiest genres out there.

Grinding to become a competitive player is very different from grinding to beat the game.

#69 Posted by Clonedzero (4091 posts) -

Well cus RPGs are typically the only genre where you do grind.

#70 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

Final Fantasy definitely enforces excessive grinding. Persona 3 also enforces excessive grinding if you don't build a perfect party.

Western RPGs definitely include less grinding, they're just very hard.

#71 Edited by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

@zelyre said:

Then you have things like FF8's draw system where you simply repeatedly drew from creatures for spells.

I love how you could beat FF8 without grinding at all. But hate how they replaced grinding with slowtime events (cutscenes).

#72 Edited by Zeik (2223 posts) -

@hunter5024 said:

@wiseman4545 said:

@hunter5024 said:

I can't remember ever having to grind to get through the campaign in a shooter, a platformer, or a fighting game.

Fighting games most definitely have grinding. If you want to do more than just mash buttons you'll spend many many hours grinding it out in the training room. Frankly it's one of the grindiest genres out there.

Grinding to become a competitive player is very different from grinding to beat the game.

Having spent a lot of time grinding it out in fighting games in recent years I can say the experience is actually very very similar. Going into the training room and practicing a combo over and over and over until you get it down and then moving on to more advanced combos or setups feels very much like grinding it out in an RPG for exp or loot, even down to the sense of achievement and accomplishment when you finish. (There's a reason the fighting game community often refers to it as "leveling up.") Consider the fact that a fighting game is all about competitive play and if you want to do more than mash buttons against equally bad people it's basically a necessity to "grind" if you want accomplish anything against other players. If the ultimate goal of a fighting game is to beat the opponent then grinding is necessary to "beat the game".

A way to look at it would be playing an RPG on the easiest difficulty and breezing through it vs playing it on normal or higher the way it was intended to be played. You can usually avoid the grind if you're taking the easiest route, but you're not really experiencing the game to its fullest.

@little_socrates said:

Final Fantasy definitely enforces excessive grinding. Persona 3 also enforces excessive grinding if you don't build a perfect party.

Western RPGs definitely include less grinding, they're just very hard.

Final Fantasy hasn't required excessive grinding since prior to FF7, if not earlier. There's no way any recent FF requires excessive grinding to finish.

And there's no way P3 requires excessive grinding either, even without a "perfect" party. Not even on the hardest difficulty did I actually have to go out and grind to advance.

#73 Edited by pekoe212 (435 posts) -

I think grinding as a necessity to progress is far more prevalent, at least these days, in Japanese RPGs rather than western ones. I encountered this recently playing Tales of Graces. I'd made a point to not avoid monsters as I went from area to area, and hadn't had a hard time with any bosses so far, so I thought i was appropriately leveled. Then I hit a boss I just couldn't beat. Discovered I was 10 levels too low. TEN. That is poor game design and that is why people hate grinding.

#74 Posted by Oscar__Explosion (2198 posts) -

@zevvion said:

Great, now I don't have to make a new thread.

I was wondering if Lost Odyssey is still worth playing today. I always wanted to play it because it's supposedly the spiritual successor to Final Fantasy X, a game that I loved a lot. But I'm also worried it may not have aged well and I heard from some people that it's way too grind-heavy.

Can anyone give me some advice on that game?

It's one of my favorite rpg's I've played within the last couple of years. I don't remember it being grind heavy (although it's been a few years) but honestly if you have the slightest urge to play it do so.

#75 Posted by Hunter5024 (5544 posts) -

@zeik: I'm not saying the grinding experience isn't similar, but I was never talking about the competitive aspect of fighting games when I made my initial comment. If you're grinding to become good at something so that you can be competitive against other skilled players, that's totally different from grinding to earn stats so you can beat a boss and see the next part of the story. Those two things are so different they're not even worth comparing. I said that I was talking about the campaigns of said games. Sure most people don't care too much about the story modes in fighting games (even though I do), but even if we do extend fighting games to the multiplayer aspect, the kind of grinding you're talking about isn't the kind of thing you have to do unless you plan to play this game competitively for a long time. Learning your way around a character so that you can play online and get a decent win/lose ratio for a couple months does not require any grinding. I'm nothing special and I manage to do that.

I probably look at fighting games from a different perspective than most people though. I think the competitive focus has held the genre back in the past (though it seems to be getting better).

#76 Edited by Zeik (2223 posts) -

@hunter5024: Unless you view RPGs as nothing more than a medium for story with forced combat sections I don't see those situations as that different. Both forms of grinding are a means to advance farther with the game. You may be rewarded with things like story in an RPG, but it's not the only reward, and the ultimate goal is still to make progress in the game and face more difficult enemies, just as grinding in a fighting game is a means to make progress to fight and win against more skilled opponents.

Also I don't know what fighting games you've been playing, but I have yet to play one where I could just jump online with no practice and not expect to lose way more than win without some practice. I'm not talking playing competitively for a long time, I'm talking about playing competitively at all.

#77 Posted by kishinfoulux (2255 posts) -

As someone who loves JRPG's...it's because they ARE grindy. Some people like that. Not for everyone obviously. I don't view it as a negative really. It's exaggerated by a lot of people though.

#78 Posted by PandaBear (1303 posts) -

After reading through this thread it seems the problem of "having to grind" have less to do with design and more to do with not taking advantage of the game's system. Example of a grind fest;

...

Zelda: Wind Waker because FUCK those tri pieces, you guys in the west got the good version

...

I don't think you've grasped what grinding is. That's an excessive fetch quest.

I have never played an RPG where I felt a huge amount of grinding is necessary. I get to a certain level, look at the elements and mechanics offered, study the boss's fight pattern, and than come up with a strategy. Isn't that the point of RPG combat? Strategy?

You haven't played many RPGs than. I'd like to see your strategy to beat any one of the end bosses in the early Final Fantasy games (pre-7) without grinding at least a little.

#79 Posted by BaconGames (3292 posts) -

Because "daggering" was simply too far.

#80 Posted by Abendlaender (2764 posts) -

@zeik said:

@abendlaender said:

@zeik said:

@abendlaender said:

Western RPGs absolutely DO have grinding, but they are much, much smarter about it. "Grinding" is basically doing sidequests, which is obiously a much more entertaining way to "grind".

Except games like Elder Scrolls, where there is absolutely straight up (and somewhat poorly implemented) grinding, given how the skill system works. Oblivion and Skyrim have worse grinding mechanics than most JRPGs that come to mind.

I played about 200 hours of Skyrim and never felt like I was grinding.

Then you clearly never tried to level smithing. There's no way that's anything but grinding. But that's only the most blatant. Spamming Invisibility over and over to level Illusion magic was definitely grinding.

That's true actually I never forged anything during the whole 200 hours cause it seemed boring and pointless

#81 Edited by GIyn (202 posts) -

Dragon Age origins didn't have grinding did it?

#82 Posted by shinjin977 (748 posts) -

@pandabear: I will have to respectfully disagree. Grinding is doing fluff work in order to progress in the game. In cases of most of the games in this thread, it is a lot of people having trouble with combat/bosses. So they do the easiest thing and go back to level up a bit. The tri piece chart are REQUIRE/mandatory not optional. It is like saying in order to progress in dragon age, please go back and do all the side quest in this area, no matter how menial. That is the true meaning of grinding imo, to have to do things clearly design for padding out a game to make it artificially longer.

#83 Posted by Sammo21 (3212 posts) -

Grinding seems to be an inherent part of Japanese RPGs and MMORPGs (both western and eastern). I think, mostly, that grinding is an apparent sign that the developers are artificially padding their game out and they have no real gameplay of value for that time frame.

#84 Posted by shinjin977 (748 posts) -

@zelyre said:
@zeik said:

@abendlaender said:

Western RPGs absolutely DO have grinding, but they are much, much smarter about it. "Grinding" is basically doing sidequests, which is obiously a much more entertaining way to "grind".

Except games like Elder Scrolls, where there is absolutely straight up (and somewhat poorly implemented) grinding, given how the skill system works. Oblivion and Skyrim have worse grinding mechanics than most JRPGs that come to mind.

Really? I'm going to have to disagree with that. Both Oblivion and Skyrim's base game had level scaling. You could skip content and still be able to complete the main quest without any issues. If you want to grind out your enchanting and blacksmithing to 100, that's all on you. Remove those two skills and you essentially have a system that simply allows you to create a class by using the skills you enjoy using. Oblivion penalized you for grinding - enemy encounters got harder the higher level you got, so if you decided to sit and grind say... athleticism and evocation, you were screwed.

In a game like Baldur's Gate, combat was more like a puzzle. Once an area was cleared, you could travel to and fro without issue. Side quests gave you an opportunity for more combat, which meant more XP; but it also gave small bits of story, even if it didn't relate to the main quest.

In ye olde JRPs, you'd hit brick walls called bosses. And I'm not talking about bosses like Ruby and Emerald which boiled down to, "Hey, grind out chocobos for Knights of the Round. Then grind out Mimic materia. Then grind it out a few more times so you get copies. Oh yeah, make sure you're level 99!" To this day, I have no idea why Ruby/Emerald/Diamond existed. No one said, "Hey, good job for killing that giant thing terrorizing us!" You just got a ton of gil, XP, and an ultimate weapon that'd help you take down the next super-boss.

There were main plot bosses that would simply swat you down in a few hits if you weren't level X. Grind out an additional 5 levels and that boss became a challenge.Cast Ultima? Why yes, I'd like that! Equip this magicite? Now, to the Veldt and grind that shit out! Awesome, Celes, Locke, Terra, and Mog are level 99. Time to beat the game. Oh. I -have- to use every party member? Well, back to The Veldt to level up Strogoss, Realm, Umaro, and Gau. (I mean really, who used Umaro and Gau?)

Then you have things like FF8's draw system where you simply repeatedly drew from creatures for spells.

Ruby and Emerald weapons both can be beaten with only the hero potion and only one party member at lvl 50-60 (which most people would be at that point in the game if not higher). Even without the hero potion you can beat them with big barrier/hyper state and level 4 limit breaks.

It is called a vanish-doom tactics = ff6 is broken

FF8 junction system can be completely broken 2 hours into the game. First make sure your GF learn the card/card mod abilites. Second learn the item-magic abilities. Turn all the gf cards you get from the bosses/win from playing cards into rare items, turn those into 100 high level magic. The game is a joke. Also FF8 had a soft level scaling.

#86 Posted by Canteu (2821 posts) -

@shinjin977: This guy knows whats up. Replace grinding with mechanics manipulation. It's much more entertaining.

#87 Posted by Veektarius (4601 posts) -

The most typical form of grinding I ever partook in (mainly for FF1-FF6 but also other games of their ilk, e.g. Chrono Trigger, Secret of Mana) was fighting battles for loot to buy the best gear from the most recent shop you found. These games are probably mostly possible without doing so (Maybe not FF4, enemies do a ton of damage in that game), but the game is clearly inviting you to grind at these points (and you definitely don't end up overleveled as a result, so maybe it's good for you.)

#88 Edited by ProfessorEss (7281 posts) -

Because I, and the people I know have played tons that do (especially back in the day).

I (we) don't really use grinding as a slight, it's strictly a description of a mechanic. It's all about the execution.

I love a good grind.

#89 Posted by CoinMatze (470 posts) -

Hey guys, I just taped the A button of my 3DS down so my party in Etrian Odyssey 4 can grind while I take a nap.

#90 Edited by HerbieBug (4212 posts) -

Designing RPG's in such a way that grinding is not a necessary component of gameplay is a relatively new concept. For a long time it wasn't necessarily looked on as negative. That was just part of the RPG experience. In fact, the first time I became annoyed at a game for having mandatory grinding was Dragon Quest VIII. And only then because that fucking game (which I adore) shamelessly wants you to grind in order to beat the first boss. A boss of what is essentially a tutorial dungeon. :D

#91 Edited by Karkarov (2986 posts) -

@thedudeabides said:

It's a weird criticisms of RPG's that simply baffles me. "I don't like RPG's because grinding is boring." "RPG's are nothing more than grindfests."

Wait? Hold on. Grinding is a mandatory part of RPG gameplay? WHEN? When did this happen? I have never played an RPG where I felt a huge amount of grinding is necessary. I get to a certain level, look at the elements and mechanics offered, study the boss's fight pattern, and than come up with a strategy. Isn't that the point of RPG combat? Strategy?

Historically speaking most old RPG's (particularly JRPG's as people call them) required some level of grinding repeat content either to level up enough to win fights or get items/gear needed to be prepared for upcoming fights. Case in point original Final Fantasy on the NES. If you wanted to be able to win most fights without it being a struggle you had to stop at each new area and do enough grinding to buy all the best gear in each town as you found them. This kept your level competitive and made sure you always had the best weapons, armor, and spells so you could handle any encounter. You could do it without, but it made the game much much harder. And near the end almost unbeatable.

RPG's today are much much less about grinding. You can still do it, for example Persona 3, if you want to make encounters easy and say steam roll the last boss. However you don't "have" to do the grinding to win. There are still some new RPG's where grinding is required but they are normally tagged as old school and talk about how they harken back to original RPG's so knowing them and avoiding them if you want is rather simple. MMO's of course require grinding as well.... but it is an MMO you should know that is part of the deal when you start playing them.

But Mass Effect? Dragon's Dogma? Skyrim? Dragon Age? The Witcher? Even the Tales games.... any grinding I am doing in those is mostly at my prerogative because I choose to, not because I have to.

#92 Posted by hermes (1376 posts) -

Because RPG is the only genre where grinding is an acceptable path to beating it. You gain nothing from grinding in other genres. But many JRPG has stores with prices that can't be accessed when you encounter them unless via grinding, or monsters that are harder to beat. So people tend to use grinding to ease the game.

That doesn't mean the game doesn't "require it", or encourages it. In many ways is a subjective matter, so that opinion it has no more value than people saying "DMC/God Hand/Demon's Soul is not hard, because it wasn't hard for me..."

#93 Edited by MonetaryDread (1993 posts) -

@hunter5024 said:

@wiseman4545 said:

@hunter5024 said:

I can't remember ever having to grind to get through the campaign in a shooter, a platformer, or a fighting game.

Fighting games most definitely have grinding. If you want to do more than just mash buttons you'll spend many many hours grinding it out in the training room. Frankly it's one of the grindiest genres out there.

Grinding to become a competitive player is very different from grinding to beat the game.

I am probably a little late with this comment, but I think you and I have two completely different definitions on what 'grinding' is. I feel that you define grinding as repeating battles to gain XP, or whatever the reward might be, to make your character more powerful. Whereas I define grinding as any repetitive action that makes the player tune-out of the game. For example, in Halo: CE; when you had to repeat all the levels again, only in reverse. I saw that as grinding. How about Tekken 3; where I found myself playing through the story of all the character I didn't give a shit about, so I could unlock new characters. I saw that as grinding. Then there is the obvious, in an MMO when you are forced to collect, yet another, 20 goblin scalps and you have to walk your ass for ten minutes because you do not have a mount yet. That is grinding.

Basically any action where you really do not give a shit, and have to grind your way through to get the outcome you desire, is 'grinding.'

#94 Posted by CitizenCoffeeCake (475 posts) -

@zevvion said:

Great, now I don't have to make a new thread.

I was wondering if Lost Odyssey is still worth playing today. I always wanted to play it because it's supposedly the spiritual successor to Final Fantasy X, a game that I loved a lot. But I'm also worried it may not have aged well and I heard from some people that it's way too grind-heavy.

Can anyone give me some advice on that game?

I don't play a ton of RPGs but I did play and beat Lost Odyssey (I think last year). I really enjoyed it and I do not recall doing much grinding. It has some genuinely funny moments and some really good (albeit lengthy) vignettes about the main character's past. I'd say go for it, you can probably get it pretty cheap.

#95 Posted by Marz (5642 posts) -

it's mostly a progression term, if you can't beat a certain boss or area then you either need to go find better gear and equipment or increase your stats through experience in order to progress. But yeah, you don't see it that often nowadays as games are certainly much easier than they used to be 10+ years ago.

#96 Edited by CaptainCharisma (339 posts) -

@zevvion said:

Great, now I don't have to make a new thread.

I was wondering if Lost Odyssey is still worth playing today. I always wanted to play it because it's supposedly the spiritual successor to Final Fantasy X, a game that I loved a lot. But I'm also worried it may not have aged well and I heard from some people that it's way too grind-heavy.

Can anyone give me some advice on that game?

I played it late last year and I didn't find it grind heavy at all. The bosses can be pretty hard but there's usually some sort of light puzzle to it. Like figuring out which status effect to cast or which arm needs to be hit first. Nothing too bad. The final boss can be tricky but there are strategies to it. I loved the game though, so I'd definitely recommend it.