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#51 Posted by Pop (2616 posts) -

I didn't read this entire thread. I don't see what's wrong with calling people out once in a while, I know it doesn't accomplish anything but maybe some of those people think twice before saying something stupid.

#52 Posted by Humanity (9011 posts) -

@milkman said:

Reading this thread made me want to shove a screwdriver into my brain.

This comment could pretty much apply for any thread about Patrick or women/sexism in games over the past few months.

Women are sexist towards Patrick and I won't stand for it!

#53 Posted by stalefishies (331 posts) -

@audiobusting said:

I don't really think it's insulting or offensive, but I gotta say that when Patrick writes a response to these internet comment stuff I feel like there's really no point to it. It's nothing new and it feels a bit self-serving and defensive. Also it kinda encourages some people to be even more defensive about it.. like that one commenter in the Skullgirls article saying 150k is still ridiculous (which I agree) getting so many comments of "did you even read the article??"

The ENTIRE article was explicitly about why $150,000 is not ridiculous. Did you even read the article?

@spaceinsomniac said:

@ripelivejam said:

i'm sad that a thread that is cordially and constructively critical of patrick (in a manner that is perfectly acceptable if aimed at any other member of the bombcrew) can't help but dissolve into ridiculous exaggeration and tired insult. he's quite deferential; jeff is about 100x more bullheaded than he ever is, yet he's perfectly acceptable to you rabble.

To be fair, Jeff doesn't write one-sided articles about heated topics such as sexism, and then reduce the opposition essentially to assholes tweeting that *insert female name here* should get back in the kitchen.

If Patrick wants to be the social issues guy, that's fine. But if he's only giving one side of the story, then I'm not going to be surprised when I see people hating on him as they do.

For my constructively critical opinion of Patrick, see the first post I made in this thread.

Misogynists don't deserve a fair shake.

Yes, they are.

This might shock you, but sexism, feminism and all that jazz may actually be a difficult and complicated topic. I mean, do you really think you can get a fucking degree in Women's Studies if it was all just stuff like 'There are no women in my video games! Fuck the patriarchy!' It's an issue that is absolutely entrenched in society and it's one that isn't going to be fixed by some trite 140-character catchphrase with a snappy hashtag.

It's so goddamn frustrating to read the comments on a Patrick article and see any dissenting opinion shot down when some (certainly not all, after all there will always be some crazy anti-feminist nonsense, but definitely some) dissenting opinions are very much valid criticisms of the way we're going about sexism and whether articles like the #1reasonwhy story are actually doing as much good as we think. But there are always posts like this which just ignore anything that's said and lump everyone into a pigeonhole labelled misogyny and completely miss the point of it all.

I really believe that, unless it's some incredibly specific example like the fighting game community thing a while back, treating the issue of the representation of women in video games as if it's something in any way specific to video games is simplifying the issue so far that it's distorting it beyond reason. Sexism in video games has nothing to with the video games.

Oh, and while I'm in rant mode:

@sweep said:

The most dangerous thing you can ever do is acknowledge the insanities written on anonymous message boards.

And treating any dissenting opinion as insanity isn't?

#54 Edited by AssInAss (2598 posts) -

@theadmin said:

3. they're video games. We can be passionate about games, but at the end of the day, they're just games.

This is a very outdated view that has been peddled around for previous art forms too like movies and music. This could only work back in the 70s when video games were just play toys that couldn't express much meaning. It's a dismissive and defensive statement that limits the medium of so much more.

#55 Posted by GrantHeaslip (1557 posts) -

I don’t think there was anything wrong with the Worth Reading comments in particular, but since this thread is seemingly no longer about that, I will say that I’ve always found it a bit rich when Patrick is condescending toward the unwashed masses when he’s so prone to making the same sort of hyperbolic, speculative, and often just plain dickish comments.

It doesn’t mean he’s wrong about them, but Patrick says at least a few things per appearance that are cringe-inducing in a way that would be at home in a NeoGAF thread. At a certain point, if you’re the kind of person who makes a habit of calling things you don’t like “shitty” or “terrible”, regularly implies that various industry entities are incompetent, and has a tendency to mix up opinion and fact, you’re not really in a position to credibly call out immaturity on the internet.

That’s not to say I think Patrick’s on the same level as your average internet commenter, but I think the’s the closest of anyone on staff, and he’s the most vocally elitist of the bunch.

#56 Edited by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

You know those people that have to be the smartest and smarmiest people in the room? That's why.

Simple as that.

@assinass said:

@theadmin said:

3. they're video games. We can be passionate about games, but at the end of the day, they're just games.

This is a very outdated view that has been peddled around for previous art forms too like movies and music. This could only work back in the 70s when video games were just play toys that couldn't express much meaning. It's a dismissive and defensive statement that limits the medium of so much more.

Games are just games, movies are just movies, and music is just music. Yes they can aspire to more, but typically they won't. They're all forms of entertainment ahead of being forms of art. Very very few movies ever reach the upper stratosphere of being called visual art. It should not be any different for games no matter how much of a vested interest you, I, nor anybody else has in them going above and beyond that. At the core they are forms of entertainment there for enjoyment.

Call what I say dismissive, but I'll call what you're saying as overly defensive. At the end of the day we are both wrong and we are both right.

#57 Posted by Jams (2960 posts) -

Can you guys post a link to the follow up article? I tried finding it but I only saw the original.

#58 Posted by bartok (2457 posts) -

Are we still suppose to hate Patrick?

#59 Posted by Monkeyman04 (1042 posts) -

@jams: It's at the beginning of this weeks Worth Reading.

#60 Posted by The_Grindilow (430 posts) -

Is it not time for everyone to get over the fact that Patrick can be a bit of a dick sometimes?

#61 Posted by TheHT (11090 posts) -

I'm sure he just has higher expectations for humanity than us denizens of the internet do.

Online
#62 Edited by Jams (2960 posts) -

@jams: It's at the beginning of this weeks Worth Reading.

Thanks. I came to the conclusion a while ago that those articles are in fact not worth reading.

It does seem ridiculous that it would cost 150,000 to make a 2D sprite and some misc. stuff that goes with it. Especially when it could probably be done by 1 passionate indie developer in a day. But I also don't care about that game at all so it doesn't bother be what they ask for it. I could totally see a fan feeling like they got spit in the face though.

#64 Posted by Dagbiker (6957 posts) -

I think he's picking the easiest way to start off his articles. It might not be the best way, but it's a really simple segue to go from "well, I didn't expect this!" to the article itself. Though I think it'd be better to intro with something else, I don't know shit about writing proper articles so yeah.

Its this, its the way he wrights. Its the same way you can tell Alex articles from Patrick's articles just by reading the title. ( I read both, although for different reasons. One for insight and one for wit. )

#67 Posted by Milkman (16618 posts) -

@jams:

  • $48,000: Staff Salaries - 8 people for 10 weeks
  • $30,000: Animation and Clean-up Contracting
  • $4,000: Voice recording
  • $2,000: Hit-box Contracting
  • $5,000: Audio Implementation Contracting
  • $20,000: QA Testing
  • $10,000: 1st Party Certification
  • $10,500: IndieGoGo and Payment Processing Fees
  • $20,500: Manufacturing and Shipping Physical Rewards

#68 Edited by PenguinDust (12480 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac said:

I think that Patrick goes a lot of good work for this site, but he often comes off as far less of an actual journalist, and more of an editorialist. He frequently tells only one side of an argument, which is pretty much the last thing that anyone who considers themselves to be a journalist should do...

I blame Giant Bomb for this. He used to be me much more of a journalist, but GB is a personality driven website so when-in-Rome as they say. He's personal opinions have crept into his writing since arriving and now people can identify an article by him in the same way they can spot one by Alex or Brad. That's okay around here. Being a columnist is challenging work, certainly, and perhaps he enjoys inciting these debates. Talk is good.

My only real complaint is that I wish he'd stop interrupting people so much on the podcast.

#69 Posted by President_Barackbar (3448 posts) -

This might shock you, but sexism, feminism and all that jazz may actually be a difficult and complicated topic. I mean, do you really think you can get a fucking degree in Women's Studies if it was all just stuff like 'There are no women in my video games! Fuck the patriarchy!' It's an issue that is absolutely entrenched in society and it's one that isn't going to be fixed by some trite 140-character catchphrase with a snappy hashtag.

It's so goddamn frustrating to read the comments on a Patrick article and see any dissenting opinion shot down when some (certainly not all, after all there will always be some crazy anti-feminist nonsense, but definitely some) dissenting opinions are very much valid criticisms of the way we're going about sexism and whether articles like the #1reasonwhy story are actually doing as much good as we think. But there are always posts like this which just ignore anything that's said and lump everyone into a pigeonhole labelled misogyny and completely miss the point of it all.

I really believe that, unless it's some incredibly specific example like the fighting game community thing a while back, treating the issue of the representation of women in video games as if it's something in any way specific to video games is simplifying the issue so far that it's distorting it beyond reason. Sexism in video games has nothing to with the video games.

Oh, and while I'm in rant mode:

@sweep said:

The most dangerous thing you can ever do is acknowledge the insanities written on anonymous message boards.

And treating any dissenting opinion as insanity isn't?

Thank you for telling it like it is. I happen to be one of those people who put forth a rational disagreement with Patrick, but all I get from people is how much of a misogynist I am. I hate that if you don't give glowing, masturbatory praise to everything dealing with sexism, you are a horrible misogynist who deserves to be drowned out. Its also very disturbing that Patrick and others like him get to cling to the irrational idiots so they can "prove" they were right. They point to the awful people and go "SEE! LOOK AT ALL THESE TERRIBLE COMMENTS! CLEARLY I AM RIGHT BECAUSE LOOK AT ALL THESE PEOPLE BEING DICKS ON THE INTERNET!!!1!1" It has to stop right now. I grow very weary of not being able to express my opinion about anything anywhere if it isn't 100% in step with the "right" opinion.

#70 Posted by Gamer_152 (14065 posts) -

"They're just games" or "It's just the internet" are throw-away excuses that don't really deal with the issue. Patrick respects the Giant Bomb community enough to try and reason with them, and open up a rational discussion when people disagree with his articles, even if they do so in a completely childish way. I respect him for this, and on the whole I don't think he gets the credit he deserves for it, but unfortunately many people on the site aren't prepared to try and have a sensible and balanced discussion on a lot of the issues Patrick tries to discuss.

Moderator
#71 Posted by TheHT (11090 posts) -

I'm sorry, this is totally unrelated but this is the first thread I clicked on and I just discovered this and needed to post it to know it's real.

Hoooooooooooooooollly shiiiiiiit this man is AMAZING. When his kid comes and he starts freaking out about he's not CNN and then goes on about people he used to know talking shit about him, not to mention that lighting and camera aimed up too high. Damn son.

Online
#73 Posted by Redhorn (225 posts) -

Lots of offended privileged individuals ITT

@nekrokreuz said:

@audiobusting said:

I don't really think it's insulting or offensive, but I gotta say that when Patrick writes a response to these internet comment stuff I feel like there's really no point to it. It's nothing new and it feels a bit self-serving and defensive. Also it kinda encourages some people to be even more defensive about it.. like that one commenter in the Skullgirls article saying 150k is still ridiculous (which I agree) getting so many comments of "did you even read the article??"

The ENTIRE article was explicitly about why $150,000 is not ridiculous. Did you even read the article?

I think $150k is still a ridiculous amount of money to spend on a fictional video game character, knowing where the money goes doesn't stop it being ridiculous. Same thing goes with a lot of other things, I think. Knowing how Kobe Beef is produced doesn't stop them from being ridiculously expensive to me. (Like Patrick said in Worth Reading I think we "have every right to think it’s unacceptable that game development has become so expensive today".) It's just how I feel in the end.

That aside, it's the attitude that I have a problem with. Just because someone has that opinion, people jump in and imply that they are too lazy to read the article before commenting. It doesn't matter if they're right; there's really no point in replying that person if they actually didn't read the article anyway. Replying to those comments doesn't really add to the discussion and just make people become offended at one another. Patrick makes some good points in this week's Worth Reading (like Dave Lang's tweet etc.), but he could've done it without pointing a finger at NeoGAF, I think. I know everybody means well but sometimes I think we need to be more tactful.

I hope this clears my opinions on the matter a bit more.. no offense intended to you in particular.

None taken.

I will agree that that is a bunch of goddamn money, but that is what it costs to make a game of the quality that is acceptable to contemporary audiences.

#74 Edited by zudthespud (3281 posts) -

Maybe he's trying to hold the community to a higher standard instead of ignoring how shitty it can be.

#75 Posted by Jams (2960 posts) -

@milkman said:

@jams:

  • $48,000: Staff Salaries - 8 people for 10 weeks
  • $30,000: Animation and Clean-up Contracting
  • $4,000: Voice recording
  • $2,000: Hit-box Contracting
  • $5,000: Audio Implementation Contracting
  • $20,000: QA Testing
  • $10,000: 1st Party Certification
  • $10,500: IndieGoGo and Payment Processing Fees
  • $20,500: Manufacturing and Shipping Physical Rewards

Thanks. that makes a lot more sense now (save for knowing what costs go into things like contracting). It's not how much it costs to make a new character. It's how much bullshit they have to pay for to get there. But that's how it goes I guess. Owning a business sucks.

#76 Edited by Jams (2960 posts) -

None taken.

I will agree that that is a bunch of goddamn money, but that is what it costs to make a game of the quality that is acceptable to contemporary audiences.

Although I agree, I wanted to point out that $150k apparently is what it costs to develop a new character and not a game. Though I think you didn't mean that anyways. I wonder what it would have ended up costing if they developed the new character while in the process of making the game? All that extra costs seems to be from restarting development on the game for just 1 character. All those approval processes can add up if you don't lump everything in to get approved. So it might have been a smarter business move to just move on if they couldn't get past all the extra bullshit fees that companies have to deal with.

#77 Posted by Redhorn (225 posts) -

Maybe he's trying to hold the community to a higher standard instead of ignoring how shitty it can be.

Amen.

@jams said:

@nekrokreuz said:

None taken.

I will agree that that is a bunch of goddamn money, but that is what it costs to make a game of the quality that is acceptable to contemporary audiences.

Although I agree, I wanted to point out that $150k apparently is what it costs to develop a new character and not a game. Though I think you didn't mean that anyways.

"...to make game content of..." then.

#78 Posted by Tits_Matador (61 posts) -

@jams If you're interested, here is a post from one of the animation contractors describing what he did for the character. http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=48494992

#79 Edited by fox01313 (5069 posts) -

Simple, regardless of how good your imagination is, someone or a collective mash of some idea will spawn on the internet (that will sometimes seek you out) which there was no way you could predict what it will be. Internet is pretty messed up place at times.

#81 Posted by Jams (2960 posts) -

@jams If you're interested, here is a post from one of the animation contractors describing what he did for the character. http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=48494992

Thanks for the link. I was looking for the thread that sparked this one. So I'll also get some context as to what's going on with gaf.

#82 Posted by 8Bit_Archer (452 posts) -

@bbqbram said:

@euandewar said:

he needs to shave i mean fuckin jesus christ

it looks drawn on

Give it time.

Hard to shave with your wrong hand when you got a broken collar bone.

lol has this thread become..."I heard he likes mayonnaise on his eggs!" "WHAT! thats gross, hes so nasty"

can we back off him for a bit, I think he's great. Hell there is not one Bomber I don't like.

#83 Edited by RenegadeSaint (1537 posts) -

@sweep said:

The most dangerous thing you can ever do is acknowledge the insanities written on anonymous message boards.

This. I don't know why I even browse comments/forums. It's like a nicotine addiction; you know there is zero benefit, but you just keep smoking.

#84 Posted by Humanity (9011 posts) -

@sweep said:

The most dangerous thing you can ever do is acknowledge the insanities written on anonymous message boards.

This. I don't know why I even browse comments/forums. It's like a nicotine addiction; you know there is zero benefit, but you just keep smoking.

Theres this plugin for Chrome I use that turns all YouTube comments into lines of "herpa derp" and if I want to read them I click it. Has served me really well.

#85 Edited by FierceDeity (358 posts) -

@gamer_152 said:

"They're just games" or "It's just the internet" are throw-away excuses that don't really deal with the issue. Patrick respects the Giant Bomb community enough to try and reason with them, and open up a rational discussion when people disagree with his articles, even if they do so in a completely childish way. I respect him for this, and on the whole I don't think he gets the credit he deserves for it, but unfortunately many people on the site aren't prepared to try and have a sensible and balanced discussion on a lot of the issues Patrick tries to discuss.

Why bother attempting to have a "sensible and balanced discussion" if you get drowned out for having a dissenting view?

#86 Posted by BBQBram (2212 posts) -

@bourbon_warrior said:

@bbqbram said:

@euandewar said:

he needs to shave i mean fuckin jesus christ

it looks drawn on

Give it time.

Hard to shave with your wrong hand when you got a broken collar bone.

lol has this thread become..."I heard he likes mayonnaise on his eggs!" "WHAT! thats gross, hes so nasty"

can we back off him for a bit, I think he's great. Hell there is not one Bomber I don't like.

I was merely defending Patrick's beard potential!

#87 Edited by big_jon (5723 posts) -

Lots of people say stupid things, not just the internet, Patrick says them too.

I do, you do, we all do, we are the internet as much as everyone likes to exclude themselves from that fact.

#88 Edited by ArtisanBreads (3788 posts) -

He's engaging with his audience. If he disagrees with them, he disagrees with them. Not sure I understand this.

#89 Edited by Cerevisiae (75 posts) -

I'm like that. I still get surprised or revolted at the things people will say online. I hope I never stop having that reaction. I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't obsess over it and write a blog about it. But yeah, I'll never stop reacting to fucked up things as being fucked up.

I dunno. I guess I just always want to maintain that dignity and respect for people.

#90 Edited by Jace (1092 posts) -

I think Patrick is intelligent, but I completely ignore anything he writes post dead island article. His general outlook is so insanely tunnel-visioned that it actually... well I really dislike what he does with his articles for two main reasons:

A) It's a god damn website about video games. It's a fucking video game website. I don't come here to be given ridiculous opinions about sexism or feminism. And there is a sort of pretentious audacity to make such hard judgements on entire companies based on one product or marketing campaign.

B) Because his ideas are so close-minded (the main cause for the large quantities of backlash) it makes it harder to even give his articles on unrelated topics a chance. It's just not even worth it. It would be the same as trying to study Jehova's Witnesses from the perspective of one that just knocked on your door. The picture they paint for you is going to be so far from the outside perspective that you won't learn anything.

And for me the icing on the cake is Alex's recent articles. What he is doing is EXACTLY the type of content I want. And I don't even care if I agree with him. He comes out and says "Hey guys, this thing in video games happened and I think this. What about you?" Perfect.

I respect him from a long distance in some ways, and in others he's borderline unbearable.

#91 Posted by Fattony12000 (7252 posts) -

It's the web, not the internet.

LOL IVE BECOME ONE OF THEM

#92 Edited by MikeJFlick (441 posts) -

@theadmin: Well said, I don't want to bash Patrick, but he tends to come off as rather pretentious which is why I don't bother reading his work anymore, but you said it much more eloquently then I've cared to bother.