#1 Posted by FonkyMucker (155 posts) -

Instead of complaining about piracy, or tricking pirates by uploading gimped versions of their titles to torrent sites, why not take advantage of the added attention by uploading polished shareware demos of their games?

Pirates have a unlimited amount of games at their dispose, and probably will not even make it all the way through the full version of the game they just downloaded....unless they really like. I say give them a robust demo version and offer a easy way to upgrade if they like it.

Hell, just give the torrents a "part 1" shareware/trial version and let it spread and gather positive feedback. Then when ready to release the full version send out the "part 2" of the game to the torrents and offer "part 3" as a paid version of the full game on your own secure site.

#2 Edited by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

#3 Edited by Animasta (14719 posts) -

@hailinel: pirates usually respond well if a dev utilizes torrents in a positive way, though; smaller teams such as Ice Pick Lodge (who put up a torrent of all the bonus features for The Void), ACE Team did that, there was that game that got put up on TPB (I can't remember the name, it was kind of like warioware?)

#4 Edited by Brodehouse (10125 posts) -

Demos are a shareware platform.

Want to know what happens in your plan? The 'part three', only available on your secure site through payment... winds up on pirate bay within 20 minutes of going live. And then you make no money. Because the people who grabbed torrents for parts 1 and 2, are going to grab it for part 3. And the people who were going to pay all along have bought your steam version.

#5 Posted by MattyFTM (14431 posts) -

Because they'll just pirate the full version.

Moderator
#6 Posted by McGhee (6075 posts) -

I've bought music digitally that distributed it through torrents. Pretty cheap way to do it, I guess.

#8 Posted by Winternet (8051 posts) -

Pirates will always pirate stuff. That's why they are called pirates.

#9 Posted by towolie (51 posts) -

@hailinel said:

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

you clearly don't know all pirates, half my steam game list are games that i pirated first and than bought because i liked them so much.

#10 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3923 posts) -

@towolie said:

@hailinel said:

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

you clearly don't know all pirates, half my steam game list are games that i pirated first and than bought because i liked them so much.

That's great that you reward good games but I have a hard time believing the majority of the people who pirate games do the same thing.

#11 Posted by towolie (51 posts) -

@towolie said:

@hailinel said:

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

you clearly don't know all pirates, half my steam game list are games that i pirated first and than bought because i liked them so much.

That's great that you reward good games but I have a hard time believing the majority of the people who pirate games do the same thing.

i can't give you a percentage ofc, but there are more people like me than you might think. every pirate i know also buy way more games than the average person. ( I'm not saying piracy is a good think, I'm just trying to keep the conversation a bit more balanced )

#12 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

@towolie said:

@thesoutherndandy said:

@towolie said:

@hailinel said:

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

you clearly don't know all pirates, half my steam game list are games that i pirated first and than bought because i liked them so much.

That's great that you reward good games but I have a hard time believing the majority of the people who pirate games do the same thing.

i can't give you a percentage ofc, but there are more people like me than you might think. every pirate i know also buy way more games than the average person. ( I'm not saying piracy is a good think, I'm just trying to keep the conversation a bit more balanced )

Why? Why not just wait until a game goes on sale if you can't afford it? Why not just look at reviews and "let's play" videos to see if it's the kind of game you want? Why not sleuth forums if you want to know if the game has any technical problems before you play?

Putting matters into your own hands to see if you like a game is dishonest to the person you're stealing from. Whether you plan on buying it later or not. I'd imagine a fruit vendor would be pretty pissed at somebody if they took an apple from their cart, ate half, then decide they'd pay for it because it was good enough. That's still being a bully to the person with the goods. It's the kind of thing a bad person does. You don't have the right to decide if somebody else's product is worth it or not (by consumption first) before you decide to buy. That's something a bully does. You're putting the other person in a vulnerable position where you take their rights away to serve your own being. That's what a bad person with no respect does.

And don't say anything about unlimited copies because it's all just binary code. That's not the point. The point is morality and if pirates have it or not (hint: they don't). You're consuming something that somebody put a lot of labor into in hopes of making a living and you might take that away from them because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

#13 Edited by towolie (51 posts) -

@jams said:

@towolie said:

@thesoutherndandy said:

@towolie said:

@hailinel said:

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

you clearly don't know all pirates, half my steam game list are games that i pirated first and than bought because i liked them so much.

That's great that you reward good games but I have a hard time believing the majority of the people who pirate games do the same thing.

i can't give you a percentage ofc, but there are more people like me than you might think. every pirate i know also buy way more games than the average person. ( I'm not saying piracy is a good think, I'm just trying to keep the conversation a bit more balanced )

Why? Why not just wait until a game goes on sale if you can't afford it? Why not just look at reviews and "let's play" videos to see if it's the kind of game you want? Why not sleuth forums if you want to know if the game has any technical problems before you play?

Putting matters into your own hands to see if you like a game is dishonest to the person you're stealing from. Whether you plan on buying it later or not. I'd imagine a fruit vendor would be pretty pissed at somebody if they took an apple from their cart, ate half, then decide they'd pay for it because it was good enough. That's still being a bully to the person with the goods. It's the kind of thing a bad person does. You don't have the right to decide if somebody else's product is worth it or not (by consumption first) before you decide to buy. That's something a bully does. You're putting the other person in a vulnerable position where you take their rights away to serve your own being. That's what a bad person with no respect does.

And don't say anything about unlimited copies because it's all just binary code. That's not the point. The point is morality and if pirates have it or not (hint: they don't). You're consuming something that somebody put a lot of labor into in hopes of making a living and you might take that away from them because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

its not dishonest... its not even illegal in my country...also I'm rather offended that you somehow decided that I'm a bad person ( or according to you a bully )

let me give you my 2 examples.

1: i downloaded bioschock infinite. it looked good, it was hyped up and i wanted to know how it actually ran. i played it less than a hour and never started it again, that to me means that i will not buy it. ( not saying that its a bad game, just not my kind of game )

2: i downloaded minecraft because i tought i would never wanna pay for a game like that, 10 minutes later i bought it and still enjoy it from time to time.

now my question, in what way did that hurt developers? how is that morally wrong? and why am i a bad person?

#14 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

Probably because it's another step for a potential customer. If you host a demo on your website, it's one click away from a download. You'll have to pay bandwidth costs, but this may not apply depending on your host, or wouldn't add too much considering you're already paying for bandwidth on your own website.

If you release something as a torrent, you have to go in assuming that your customers have torrent clients ready to run. That's another step someone would have to take, if they don't have a client. You might run into some weird moral ground if you decide to recommend a client to people visiting your site, if only because as a business, you're now recommending a few specific clients over all the others.

Blizzard's installer also doubles as a torrent client. They have the funds and a monetary interest in mitigating bandwidth costs. If you're indie, chances are that you won't have the resources to make an additional torrent-powered installer and patcher.

Finally, if you do decide to release a demo through a torrent, all of your analytics are gone. You won't know how many people have actually downloaded the demo. Instead, your statistics are limited to torrent file downloads, and the number of seeders and leechers on the tracker.

#15 Edited by I_smell (3925 posts) -

Independant developers DO do this. We did it with our first game, because nobody'd ever heard of us before. Having people talking, and the brand awareness, is worth it for the sales you probably would've never made anyway, as you don't have a marketing budget.

We wrote in the game to please buy it, and sales did go up a tick. A fraction of the people who pirated it, obviously, but I stress that literally nobody'd ever fucking heard of us.

Then McPixel did it and got a million articles for being innovative, GGRRRRR!!!

#16 Posted by towolie (51 posts) -

@i_smell said:

Independant developers DO do this. We did it with our first game, because nobody'd ever heard of us before. Having people talking, and the brand awareness, is worth it for the sales you probably would've never made anyway, as you don't have a marketing budget.

We wrote in the game to please buy it, and sales did go up a tick. A fraction of the people who pirated it, obviously, but I stress that literally nobody'd ever fucking heard of us.

Then McPixel did it and got a million articles for being innovative, GGRRRRR!!!

what game are you talking about? always interested in story's like this.

#17 Edited by I_smell (3925 posts) -
@mattyftm said:

Because they'll just pirate the full version.

Also not true; PirateBay ticked ours as the official version, and removed any others. I'd assume it's because they want the good will of helping people, and to proliferate the 0.001% edge-case in which piracy actually works out.

Our version was the only version on the site for about 6 months, maybe more, I can't remember. They eventually got tired of moderating it.

#18 Edited by HaltIamReptar (2029 posts) -

@jams: when you steal from a fruit vendor, you are taking away from the vendor the money he invested in that fruit, the potential sale of that fruit, and the money invested in the next fruit.

when you pirate a game you make a copy.

always love these analogies. usually made by the smartest people thinking in the most old fashioned ways.

look up Paulo Coelho. pirated copies of his books have only generated more sales for him.

#19 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

@towolie said:

@jams said:

@towolie said:

@thesoutherndandy said:

@towolie said:

@hailinel said:

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

you clearly don't know all pirates, half my steam game list are games that i pirated first and than bought because i liked them so much.

That's great that you reward good games but I have a hard time believing the majority of the people who pirate games do the same thing.

i can't give you a percentage ofc, but there are more people like me than you might think. every pirate i know also buy way more games than the average person. ( I'm not saying piracy is a good think, I'm just trying to keep the conversation a bit more balanced )

Why? Why not just wait until a game goes on sale if you can't afford it? Why not just look at reviews and "let's play" videos to see if it's the kind of game you want? Why not sleuth forums if you want to know if the game has any technical problems before you play?

Putting matters into your own hands to see if you like a game is dishonest to the person you're stealing from. Whether you plan on buying it later or not. I'd imagine a fruit vendor would be pretty pissed at somebody if they took an apple from their cart, ate half, then decide they'd pay for it because it was good enough. That's still being a bully to the person with the goods. It's the kind of thing a bad person does. You don't have the right to decide if somebody else's product is worth it or not (by consumption first) before you decide to buy. That's something a bully does. You're putting the other person in a vulnerable position where you take their rights away to serve your own being. That's what a bad person with no respect does.

And don't say anything about unlimited copies because it's all just binary code. That's not the point. The point is morality and if pirates have it or not (hint: they don't). You're consuming something that somebody put a lot of labor into in hopes of making a living and you might take that away from them because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

its not dishonest... its not even illegal in my country...also I'm rather offended that you somehow decided that I'm a bad person ( or according to you a bully )

let me give you my 2 examples.

1: i downloaded bioschock infinite. it looked good, it was hyped up and i wanted to know how it actually ran. i played it less than a hour and never started it again, that to me means that i will not buy it. ( not saying that its a bad game, just not my kind of game )

2: i downloaded minecraft because i tought i would never wanna pay for a game like that, 10 minutes later i bought it and still enjoy it from time to time.

now my question, in what way did that hurt developers? how is that morally wrong? and why am i a bad person?

Sorry, I got a bit overly excited with what I was originally asking and started ranting. What I originally wanted to understand with you in particular is:

  1. If you wanted to know how it ran then why didn't you just ask on their forums? Barring any unique problems, there's usually a good couple of threads that are going to be able specific problems usually relating to specific hardware. Something that you can even just wait a week or two for all of them to come out. I know there's always that chance something will blow up, but we all take that chance and usually come out okay.
  2. If it took you 10 mins to decide if you wanted to play it, any let's play should have sufficed. The difference between us on this one is that instead of downloading the game, I just watched some videos of it on YouTube and I was hooked. I knew by watching somebody else play that I'd really love the game and I did. I don't think there's ever been a time where watching somebody else play didn't give me a feel for the game.

I get that it's legal in your country but that doesn't make it right since the people with the product may not be from your country. I'm not saying anybody who does it should be strung up or anything. I just wish more people would think about what they're doing and if there is an alternative that they can do that everyone would be okay with before doing what they wanted. Unfortunately we don't live in that world.

I'll give an example though. When I was 16 [12 years ago :( ] I pirated Photoshop because I wanted something to supplement my web design class I took in high school. I still feel really bad about doing it to this day (even if adobe is a terrible company). So now when I'm in a similar situation I opt for the open source alternative. Luckily there are a lot of people out there that give me that choice. Otherwise I'd be stuck. Though there are cheaper alternatives to Photoshop out there I could get instead.

It's a lot easier with games. If for some reason I can't afford the game or I'm not sure about it; I just don't get it. It's not something I NEED or I'll die without. A lot of times I'll wait a year or more before reconsidering. By then a game could have dropped in price by 80% which makes it a lot easier of a pill to swallow.

#20 Edited by Abendlaender (2887 posts) -

When I was younger I used to pirate a lot of stuff (I admitt it) but "re"bought most on Steam later. HOWEVER I mostly bought it during sales for less than 5€ so I dunno if I can say I "redeemed" myself-

#21 Edited by EXTomar (4940 posts) -

The problem with doing this is the same problem download any software like this: It represents a security risk. Even with digital signatures there is still a risk that download, installing and running software you get shared from a bazillion of places on the internet is riddled with malware.

As hostile as people got when a game doesn't work "out of the box", imagine how hostile they would have been if it not only didn't work but the demo damaged their PC forcing a reformat-install.

#22 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

@jams: when you steal from a fruit vendor, you are taking away from the vendor the money he invested in that fruit, the potential sale of that fruit, and the money invested in the next fruit.

when you pirate a game you make a copy.

always love these analogies. usually made by the smartest people thinking in the most old fashioned ways.

look up Paulo Coelho. pirated copies of his books have only generated more sales for him.

You're missing the point. The point is the pirate is ignoring the unspoken agreement between two parties exchanging goods that's been going on for as long as we've been trading. There's a bit of trust between the two parties and a bit a faith that each person needs to take during the transaction to show good will. The trust and faith being each person is in agreement that what they are exchanging is of equal value and the thing being exchanged is what was agreed upon.

Pirates disregard this and do things on their own terms. That's not a healthy thing to do because you're violating the trust of the other party by not taking their word. Then still taking the item. Once the pirate deem it worthy then they may or may not exchange what was originally promised (the price of the game asked). If they deem it not worth the price asked then they have still consumed the product and have not exchanged anything in return. Therefor stealing.

That's what I'm talking about.

#23 Edited by Cretaceous_Bob (527 posts) -

These people who try to argue that piracy hasn't hurt the industry are lunatics trying to justify their own immoral behavior. Nobody should legitimize it with a response.

#24 Posted by Chibithor (574 posts) -

Dunno about shareware, but I fully support more demos, and there's no harm in making a demo available through several places.

#25 Posted by towolie (51 posts) -

@jams said:

@towolie said:

@jams said:

@towolie said:

@thesoutherndandy said:

@towolie said:

@hailinel said:

Because pirates will just keep playing the version on the torrent and not bother paying, and will likely hunt for ways to crack the demo for the full release rather than spend a dime. Pirates are assholes like that.

you clearly don't know all pirates, half my steam game list are games that i pirated first and than bought because i liked them so much.

That's great that you reward good games but I have a hard time believing the majority of the people who pirate games do the same thing.

i can't give you a percentage ofc, but there are more people like me than you might think. every pirate i know also buy way more games than the average person. ( I'm not saying piracy is a good think, I'm just trying to keep the conversation a bit more balanced )

Why? Why not just wait until a game goes on sale if you can't afford it? Why not just look at reviews and "let's play" videos to see if it's the kind of game you want? Why not sleuth forums if you want to know if the game has any technical problems before you play?

Putting matters into your own hands to see if you like a game is dishonest to the person you're stealing from. Whether you plan on buying it later or not. I'd imagine a fruit vendor would be pretty pissed at somebody if they took an apple from their cart, ate half, then decide they'd pay for it because it was good enough. That's still being a bully to the person with the goods. It's the kind of thing a bad person does. You don't have the right to decide if somebody else's product is worth it or not (by consumption first) before you decide to buy. That's something a bully does. You're putting the other person in a vulnerable position where you take their rights away to serve your own being. That's what a bad person with no respect does.

And don't say anything about unlimited copies because it's all just binary code. That's not the point. The point is morality and if pirates have it or not (hint: they don't). You're consuming something that somebody put a lot of labor into in hopes of making a living and you might take that away from them because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

its not dishonest... its not even illegal in my country...also I'm rather offended that you somehow decided that I'm a bad person ( or according to you a bully )

let me give you my 2 examples.

1: i downloaded bioschock infinite. it looked good, it was hyped up and i wanted to know how it actually ran. i played it less than a hour and never started it again, that to me means that i will not buy it. ( not saying that its a bad game, just not my kind of game )

2: i downloaded minecraft because i tought i would never wanna pay for a game like that, 10 minutes later i bought it and still enjoy it from time to time.

now my question, in what way did that hurt developers? how is that morally wrong? and why am i a bad person?

Sorry, I got a bit overly excited with what I was originally asking and started ranting. What I originally wanted to understand with you in particular is:

  1. If you wanted to know how it ran then why didn't you just ask on their forums? Barring any unique problems, there's usually a good couple of threads that are going to be able specific problems usually relating to specific hardware. Something that you can even just wait a week or two for all of them to come out. I know there's always that chance something will blow up, but we all take that chance and usually come out okay.
  2. If it took you 10 mins to decide if you wanted to play it, any let's play should have sufficed. The difference between us on this one is that instead of downloading the game, I just watched some videos of it on YouTube and I was hooked. I knew by watching somebody else play that I'd really love the game and I did. I don't think there's ever been a time where watching somebody else play didn't give me a feel for the game.

I get that it's legal in your country but that doesn't make it right since the people with the product may not be from your country. I'm not saying anybody who does it should be strung up or anything. I just wish more people would think about what they're doing and if there is an alternative that they can do that everyone would be okay with before doing what they wanted. Unfortunately we don't live in that world.

I'll give an example though. When I was 16 [12 years ago :( ] I pirated Photoshop because I wanted something to supplement my web design class I took in high school. I still feel really bad about doing it to this day (even if adobe is a terrible company). So now when I'm in a similar situation I opt for the open source alternative. Luckily there are a lot of people out there that give me that choice. Otherwise I'd be stuck. Though there are cheaper alternatives to Photoshop out there I could get instead.

It's a lot easier with games. If for some reason I can't afford the game or I'm not sure about it; I just don't get it. It's not something I NEED or I'll die without. A lot of times I'll wait a year or more before reconsidering. By then a game could have dropped in price by 80% which makes it a lot easier of a pill to swallow.

to start off, thanks for this way more informative and friendly answer!

i agree to both of your questions, those are good ways to do things. but i don't have allot of money and paying 60 euro's for bioschok and than playing it for 1 hour would be a real waste. ( games are more expensive here than in America )

so to me its a way to filter out the good and the bad before putting money on the line. i can understand that you don't like that way of testing and we are free to disagree about that, i just don't see how i'm harming the industry this way.

i guess that will be my question back to you, how do i negatively impact the gaming industry. ( sorry for my bad English )

#26 Edited by towolie (51 posts) -

@jams said:

@haltiamreptar said:

@jams: when you steal from a fruit vendor, you are taking away from the vendor the money he invested in that fruit, the potential sale of that fruit, and the money invested in the next fruit.

when you pirate a game you make a copy.

always love these analogies. usually made by the smartest people thinking in the most old fashioned ways.

look up Paulo Coelho. pirated copies of his books have only generated more sales for him.

You're missing the point. The point is the pirate is ignoring the unspoken agreement between two parties exchanging goods that's been going on for as long as we've been trading. There's a bit of trust between the two parties and a bit a faith that each person needs to take during the transaction to show good will. The trust and faith being each person is in agreement that what they are exchanging is of equal value and the thing being exchanged is what was agreed upon.

Pirates disregard this and do things on their own terms. That's not a healthy thing to do because you're violating the trust of the other party by not taking their word. Then still taking the item. Once the pirate deem it worthy then they may or may not exchange what was originally promised (the price of the game asked). If they deem it not worth the price asked then they have still consumed the product and have not exchanged anything in return. Therefor stealing.

That's what I'm talking about.

do you really not understand the definition of stealing or are you unwilling to learn? i do agree to a certain point, but calling it stealing is stupid.

#27 Edited by Jams (2966 posts) -

@towolie said:

to start off, thanks for this way more informative and friendly answer!

i agree to both of your questions, those are good ways to do things. but i don't have allot of money and paying 60 euro's for bioschok and than playing it for 1 hour would be a real waste. ( games are more expensive here than in America )

so to me its a way to filter out the good and the bad before putting money on the line. i can understand that you don't like that way of testing and we are free to disagree about that, i just don't see how i'm harming the industry this way.

i guess that will be my question back to you, how do i negatively impact the gaming industry. ( sorry for my bad English )

The only way I think you negatively impact the industry is you are accidentally skewing their reports to show that there is a lot more people pirating their games than paying for them. See in your case, if they see 1 pirated copy it should be canceled out with your purchase. But they see it as 1 sale 1 stolen when it should just be 1 sale. But that's for you in particular. When I'm saying "If they deem it not worth the price asked then they have still consumed the product and have not exchanged anything in return. Therefor stealing." I'm talking about the fact that the person ended up actually using the product they should have paid for but didn't. That should essentially be stealing. Simply for the fact that the person consumed the product but didn't pay for it irregardless of the product being easily replaced. I bought Bioshock and hated the $60 price and I don't think it was worth it. But I still payed for it. What if I just downloaded it, played it to completion, didn't like it and then didn't pay for it? I essentially used that product for what it was meant for and still didn't pay for it.

Now I know the world isn't black and white. But to me the excuses that would make me turn a blind eye are pretty small. The only thing I think downloading games for free are if that game is out of print and you are no longer able to acquire it from the person originally selling it. In other words, games that have been ripped and saved for historical reasons. Like NES and arcade games, etc. Once you can't get those games the normal way, then it's time for them to be preserved by making a copy of it and distributing it to as many people and places as possible. This way we will be able to play games 30 years from now when a lot of those carts and cd's have stopped working.

@towolie said:

do you really not understand the definition of stealing or are you unwilling to learn? i do agree to a certain point, but calling it stealing is stupid.

Stealing is taking something from somebody that doesn't belong to the them. It being physical or digital and easily replaced is just semantics that isn't relevant to if a person stole something or not. It's been proven that you can steal something that isn't physical (i.e. intellectual property).

Though I do especially feel bad for places like Brazil for having issues with prices and availability in their area. I know Sweden has some tax issues when it comes to stuff like beer and other items making it near impossible to buy anything entertainment related. So yeah, there are definitely gray areas though.

#28 Edited by towolie (51 posts) -
@jams said:
@towolie said:

do you really not understand the definition of stealing or are you unwilling to learn? i do agree to a certain point, but calling it stealing is stupid.

Stealing is taking something from somebody that doesn't belong to the them. It being physical or digital and easily replaced is just semantics that isn't relevant to if a person stole something or not. It's been proven that you can steal something that isn't physical (i.e. intellectual property).

Though I do especially feel bad for places like Brazil for having issues with prices and availability in their area. I know Sweden has some tax issues when it comes to stuff like beer and other items making it near impossible to buy anything entertainment related. So yeah, there are definitely gray areas though.

i agree with your whole first answer ( i removed it to save some space ).

your second answer however... "the wrongful or willful taking of money or property belonging to someone else with intent to deprive the owner of its use or benefit either temporarily or permanently. No particular type of movement or carrying away is required." thats the legal definition off stealing. ( http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s074.htm )

where in illegal downloading do you deprive the owner of its use or benefit? nowhere and thats why its not stealing...

p.s. not trying to be harsh i think that at this point we agree with each other with most things.

#29 Posted by EXTomar (4940 posts) -

Their is also an element of "I want to play it" regardless of other considerations which is entirely and unjustifiably selfish.

#30 Posted by Ravenlight (8011 posts) -

Kotaku headline: 5 Reasons Piracy Is The New Sexism.

Wow, you guys are real riled up about this. I thought we'd all collectively come to a tentative consensus about piracy in the past: It kind of sucks and the best way to fight piracy is to present your game in a way that makes it easier to acquire than pirating it/gives a good enough benefit to owning a legit copy.

It's weird that people still think of piracy as lost sales. Generally, the people who pirate a given game were never going to pay for it anyway. The amount of revenue lost is $0.

#31 Edited by myketuna (1755 posts) -

Dunno about shareware, but I fully support more demos, and there's no harm in making a demo available through several places.

I'm right there with you, brother. That was usually the sole reason I started pirating back in the day along with having no money as a high school kid. Now, I'll usually wait until the game in question is so cheap, I won't feel bad if it runs like shit on my current setup. It'll work eventually one day and I only spent [insert insane Steam sale value here] on it.

#32 Edited by EXTomar (4940 posts) -

On the other hand, the other side seems to be just as ridled up trying to deny it has no effect at all. Looking at it purely as a sales figure is the equal but opposite fantasy.

#33 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

@towolie said:

i agree with your whole first answer ( i removed it to save some space ).

your second answer however... "the wrongful or willful taking of money or property belonging to someone else with intent to deprive the owner of its use or benefit either temporarily or permanently. No particular type of movement or carrying away is required." thats the legal definition off stealing. ( http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/s074.htm )

where in illegal downloading do you deprive the owner of its use or benefit? nowhere and thats why its not stealing...

p.s. not trying to be harsh i think that at this point we agree with each other with most things.

Here's another definition from Merriam-Webster in which I think is the right way to word it. If somebody offers up something for trade or money and a person takes said item without paying for it is stealing. It's fine that you think it's different. We're close enough to agreement that we can just agree to disagree on this one and chalk it up to slight difference in definition of the word. Anyways, I believe it's up to the two parties to deal with this problem on their own anyways.

a : to take or appropriate without right or leave and with intent to keep or make use of wrongfully

Credit http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/steal

#34 Edited by Jams (2966 posts) -

@ravenlight said:

It kind of sucks and the best way to fight piracy is to present your game in a way that makes it easier to acquire than pirating it/gives a good enough benefit to owning a legit copy.

They didn't add DRM and have it available on multiple platforms at an affordable price. What else can there possibly be? Save for making the game free. Though they wouldn't make it as a startup then. I thought people would stop pirating games if they didn't have DRM or a ridiculously high price tag? Oh and they have demos available too.