#1 Posted by pigmartyr (211 posts) -

So i go to pick up a copy of the newly released The Incredibles for my son today on my way home from work. At 6am the only place open is Walmart. I go to the electronics department, pick up the only copy of the Blu-ray there and walk to the front. As I'm checking out it rings up $10 higher than the online price, toys r us price, and best buy's price. I explain this to the cashier who is probably 70 and she gets all huffy about it. She pulls out a stack of ads and slowly starts to sort through them. Finding the BB add she starts going over this thing with a fine tooth comb.











The picture looks the same as the box art in front of her and as pictured above except there are two stickers on the packaging. One for a free cars 2 ticket and the second that says "4 Disc set! 2  Blu-ray + 1 DVD + 1 digital copy" The lady sees this and says , go find the 2 disc set this isn't the same and we wont price match it. I try to explain to her that its a total of 4 discs in the package and as listed at the top its 2  Blu-rays, 1 DVD, and one digital copy for a total of 4 discs, and the sticker merely does the math for you and explains the contents. I also mention that the inclusion of the stickers on the package don't make this a different product. She wouldn't hear it and told me to just go to best buy and buy it there if i wanted it at that price because it was in fact a different product. I again tell her, same product, there is no other copy released, and so on. I then say "Well I'm sorry if I'm wrong but...." when she cuts across me and says "Oh you are wrong and we aren't matching the price." I then loudly let this lady know that the reason I'm not wrong is because unlike her I can add to four. As this transpires a younger cashier (around my age) comes up and I ask her to explain to this lady what the deal is. She looks at the add for maybe two seconds and says yeah its the same so match it. The older lady refuses and gets all pissy. Younger lady rings me up and I go on my way apologizing to the older for any confusion i may have caused.

Usually i just go to the store for the advertised price, but is it always this ridiculous to get a price match? I mean even Gamestop has done me better than this on ridiculous stuff like a trade in value increase after I've already traded my stuff in. Why the hell is it this crazy to get a price match? I know goto amazon is the ultimate answer, but sometimes it cant be helped.
#2 Edited by MattyFTM (14393 posts) -

You should have just asked to see her manager rather than trying to explain it to her. That's the best way to deal with things like that.

Moderator
#3 Posted by FourWude (2261 posts) -

You just berated an elderly 70 year old lady. Happy about yourself now. Especially for 'The Incredibles'.... was it worth it? Well was it?

#4 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4824 posts) -

price matching? Fucking serious?


Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
#5 Posted by Bubbameister33 (27 posts) -

First world problems.

#6 Posted by Vinny_Says (5712 posts) -

price matching? Man YOU sound like the 70 year old lady!

#7 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you.
#8 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4824 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady. 
#9 Posted by wefwefasdf (6729 posts) -

I'm always treated like shit in retail stores. It'll probably be like that until I'm older than 25. :/

#10 Edited by RecSpec (3828 posts) -
@SpikeSpiegel said:
" I'm always treated like shit in retail stores. It'll probably be like that until I'm older than 25. :/ "
You would think so, but no.
Old lady's getting paid, no sympathy needed.
#11 Posted by TooWalrus (13218 posts) -

You were more polite than I would have been. As soon as she got pissy with me, I would have raised my voice enough to let everyone hear me say "SO IS THIS THE KIND OF INCOMPITANCE I CAN EXPECT TO HAVE WHEN I HIT NINETY!?!"

#12 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
No, the price matching retailer getting the business is worth more to them than the customer going elsewhere.  Her problem was lack of training and product awareness mixed with poor customer skills.  Being old doesn't preclude you from being a good at your job.  Meanwhile, do you have a thing for older women?
#13 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4824 posts) -
@SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
No, the price matching retailer getting the business is worth more to them than the customer going elsewhere.  Her problem was lack of training and product awareness mixed with poor customer skills.  Being old doesn't preclude you from being a good at your job.  Meanwhile, do you have a thing for older women? "
I have a thing for showing respect to your elders. They know a lot of shit you don't, and just because one of them is working a cash register at Wal-Mart doesn't mean you get to treat them like shit for following the protocol she was obviously instructed to follow. 

Bottom line, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing people go "dur dur old people" and treating them like a waste of space when they know a hell of a lot more than you or I do, and that knowledge can be considered invaluable to future obstacles in our lives. 
#14 Edited by pigmartyr (211 posts) -

I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm just curious if anyone else has to go through this on price matching.
Granny obviously wasn't in a good mood to begin with because when i initially asked her about the policy she got agitated and her negative attitude escalated during the exchange to the point of indignation. Wow a customer in your store asking for assistance in regards to something you get paid for. Heaven forbid someone come and ask them to do their job.

And yes every time you get to keep your pimp hand strong by putting a smarmy elderly person in their place it is worth it.

Also hells yeah price matching. You wanna pay more for your crap go right ahead. Glad to see that some people are independently wealthy enough to not have to look for the best deal.

#15 Posted by Skullomania (135 posts) -
@Bubbameister33 said:
" First world problems. "
Ahaaaa.... Nice.
#16 Posted by JJWeatherman (14558 posts) -

I don't think I've ever price matched anything in my life. I just go to the store that has it at a lower price.

#17 Posted by Aaron_G (1615 posts) -

I would never attempt to do anything like that at Wal-Mart. No offense, but their customer service is terrible and generally I am treated like garbage when I need something as if I am an inconvenience to them. I had to wait 30 minutes to get a game out of game case there once. I was so infuriated with the person, because I had to ask them twice to do so and they pretended like I never asked them before. 

#18 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -

Troglodytes make me sad.

#19 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
No, the price matching retailer getting the business is worth more to them than the customer going elsewhere.  Her problem was lack of training and product awareness mixed with poor customer skills.  Being old doesn't preclude you from being a good at your job.  Meanwhile, do you have a thing for older women? "
I have a thing for showing respect to your elders. They know a lot of shit you don't, and just because one of them is working a cash register at Wal-Mart doesn't mean you get to treat them like shit for following the protocol she was obviously instructed to follow. 

Bottom line, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing people go "dur dur old people" and treating them like a waste of space when they know a hell of a lot more than you or I do, and that knowledge can be considered invaluable to future obstacles in our lives. 
"
I respect my elders too but this isn't about that directly.  This is about someone who works in retail who is not very good at her job.  She is being treated as an equal, without kid gloves and aside from the OP's comment on her visible age (estimating 70) there is little that could be taken as derogatory from what was said.  What can be gleaned (if the OP is truthful) is that she was being defensive and was not doing her job correctly.  Her role is to be in customer service and to retain trade, not be a barrier between the customer and the store's stock.
#20 Posted by AlexW00d (6280 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
No, the price matching retailer getting the business is worth more to them than the customer going elsewhere.  Her problem was lack of training and product awareness mixed with poor customer skills.  Being old doesn't preclude you from being a good at your job.  Meanwhile, do you have a thing for older women? "
I have a thing for showing respect to your elders. They know a lot of shit you don't, and just because one of them is working a cash register at Wal-Mart doesn't mean you get to treat them like shit for following the protocol she was obviously instructed to follow. 

Bottom line, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing people go "dur dur old people" and treating them like a waste of space when they know a hell of a lot more than you or I do, and that knowledge can be considered invaluable to future obstacles in our lives. 
"
Dude, if she is so fucking knowledgeable why in the hell does she have such bad manners. Just because she is old doesn't mean she has an excuse to be rude. You're just being discriminatory, treating this lady different to how you would treat someone younger just because she is old.
Online
#21 Posted by DeeGee (2127 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" I have a thing for showing respect to your elders. They know a lot of shit you don't, and just because one of them is working a cash register at Wal-Mart doesn't mean you get to treat them like shit for following the protocol she was obviously instructed to follow. 

Bottom line, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing people go "dur dur old people" and treating them like a waste of space when they know a hell of a lot more than you or I do, and that knowledge can be considered invaluable to future obstacles in our lives. 
"
Oh wow, because that old lady knows about rationing that means she gets to do something wrong repeatedly and then hold up this guy whilst breaking the stores policies on price matching (which is what they want you to do because it means that you're choosing them over a competitor)? I don't think so.

She can write a book of interesting facts if she wants to be useful, not working in a store. Nothing worse then elderly people who think that just because they are old they deserve respect. Gotta earn that right.
#22 Posted by Jasta (2217 posts) -

Price matching isint the problem dude, 70 year olds who are up their own arses are.

#23 Edited by Skald (4367 posts) -
@KingWilly said:

" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?
Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
No, the price matching retailer getting the business is worth more to them than the customer going elsewhere.  Her problem was lack of training and product awareness mixed with poor customer skills.  Being old doesn't preclude you from being a good at your job.  Meanwhile, do you have a thing for older women? "
I have a thing for showing respect to your elders. They know a lot of shit you don't, and just because one of them is working a cash register at Wal-Mart doesn't mean you get to treat them like shit for following the protocol she was obviously instructed to follow. 
Bottom line, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing people go "dur dur old people" and treating them like a waste of space when they know a hell of a lot more than you or I do, and that knowledge can be considered invaluable to future obstacles in our lives. 
"
It has nothing to do with age. I'd expect the OP to do the same thing whether the cashier was eighteen or eighty. He was trying to use an advertised service, (matching the prices of the competitors) the cashier handled it poorly, and he got upset, which is completely fair. When you go to a bar and order drinks, and the server overcharges you, you should be pissed off, you should try to get the manager. This is a similar situation.
If you don't stand up for yourself in these situations, the world is going to take you for everything it can get.
#24 Edited by LongMasterWolf (171 posts) -

As a cashier at Wal-Mart I would have gladly given you the price match.
Note to all customers: Never go to the fucking OLD cashiers, they usually have no idea what they are doing.
And this isn't me berating my fellow cashiers for being old, but when someone attempts to price match a movie and the ad clearly shows the same item for a cheaper price, and the cashier doesn't allow the customer to purchase the item or even call a 209 (thats the action code for a price check) to see if a CSM will allow the price override it just pisses the customer off, pisses other cashiers off, and pisses the CSM off because: it is wasting everyones time.

#25 Posted by ajamafalous (12007 posts) -

I've only ever price-matched once that I can remember. GameStop was selling new copies of Persona 4 for 29.99, but they only had used copies in stock and I wanted a new one. So I went to Best Buy, got the last copy they had there, but they were charging 39.99. When I got up to the cashier I asked if she could price-match it.

"Where are you price-matching from?"
"GameStop."
"Okay. How much was it?"
"30."

She rang up 30.00 and I paid and left. At no point did she ever even attempt to see if I was telling the truth.

#26 Posted by choffy21 (1376 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
Old lady or not, it's part of her job and she should have done it.
#27 Posted by Super_Yosh_64 (126 posts) -

I didn't even bother to read the tc's entire post, but damn is he getting flamed.

#28 Posted by Lukeweizer (2692 posts) -
@pigmartyr: That's why I don't go to Walmart. It's just old people who don't know anything.
#29 Posted by Ubik (122 posts) -
@Bubbameister33 said:
" First world problems. "
Yup.  If this is the worst thing to happen to you all day, I'd say it was a pretty good day.
#30 Posted by crusader8463 (14422 posts) -

That's why I like to buy stuff online. No stupid people to deal with at checkout.

#31 Posted by BraveToaster (12589 posts) -

I don't care if she's my elder, she lacks customer service skills and doesn't know how to do her job. Old age doesn't give you the right to be a cunt. 

#32 Posted by JustinNotJason (422 posts) -

Alot of the times those sales are actually funded by the manufacturer through a contract with the retailer. When you attempt to price match something with a store that's not having the sale price subsidized by the manufacturer it's just a straight loss by the store doing the price match, but the store with the sale will get the money back.

Most of the time if the price you're trying to price match is around the cost of the item they'll price match it. But if the price you're trying to price match is something that's below cost the manager has to make a decision if it's worth losing the money.
If you're just john doe buying a random DVD/Bluray and you're attempting to buy below cost it's more cost effective to let you go some place else. If you're a frequent customer who clearly spends money at the store they're more likely to make the exception.

Also there's alot of stipulations with those price matches. Having worked in retail I've seen people literally make websites and list a product just to have the price match done.  Granted that's more on High end tvs or something of the like than a Blu Ray, but somebody trying to get a 5,000 dollar TV for 1,999.99 because "JoesTVWarehouse.com" has it for that price. But just to give you an idea of what those people have to deal with.

And at times there are slight differences between products (especially on computers --Holy Shit could I tell stories of minute differences that people don't notice that effect price).

You're story in particular is odd though. 10 dollars on a Blu Ray isn't much. And the fact that Best Buy had it for cheaper makes me laugh.

#33 Posted by Jethuty (1023 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
to be fair, she was the asshole trying to save face. his actions are totally justified, her age doesnt matter and it shouldnt excuse you from being imcompetent or ignorant
#34 Posted by pigmartyr (211 posts) -

Justified or not I still think it was still interesting. I'll say again that this was a last minute purchase (just realized it was coming out) for my son and I wanted to have it for him when he got home from daycare that afternoon. I work until 6am so it was the only place to go and she was one of a few older cashiers at that time of morning. All valid points and suggestions about going elsewhere and I'll be more apt to keep to my amazon practices for future releases.

As a person in a customer service industry i've lost my patience with a customer and have more rude than i probably should have been. That being said it was never in defiance of a policy my company set, or just because I didnt want to do my job. If i ever got defensive its because a customer made a ridiculous request, wanted me to do something that was impossible (free stuff), or otherwise just being completely unreasonable. If I was trying to get over and made a scene then sure. I've seen and read about much worse antics from the likes of the cheapassgamer.com forum on trying to read into policies or take advantage of unknowing employees. I can see the actions taken on a strange coupon print out, a non local retail price match, and online price match or anything that seems shady above and beyond the straight up advertised price matched up with the product in hand as is very apparent by the signage clearly claiming this is the standard.

My frustration comes in ANY employee not being humble enough to give the customer the benefit of the doubt and look into it further than their own personal knowledge. Saying "I know you are wrong" in a smug matter of fact way isn't all that they can do. Refusing to check me out after being told she was wrong by the CSM was just icing on the cake of the situation. I get that she was embarassed and as well she should be. I only hope that it puts her interactions with her customer into perspective and she thinks twice about being a smug douche the next time she thinks she is right on something that she has limited knowledge of.

#35 Posted by SSully (4199 posts) -
@Aaron_G said:
" I would never attempt to do anything like that at Wal-Mart. No offense, but their customer service is terrible and generally I am treated like garbage when I need something as if I am an inconvenience to them. I had to wait 30 minutes to get a game out of game case there once. I was so infuriated with the person, because I had to ask them twice to do so and they pretended like I never asked them before.  "
This is why I get everything from amazon now. The two best options for games by me are best buy, and gamestop. I used to go to best buy but got sick of waiting 15 minutes to get a game out of a game case in a store which is in a pretty crappy neighborhood, or go to gamestop where they asked me to preorder 5 different games before getting me a brand new game that has had the shrink wrap removed and game taken out of the case. Now I get all my games delivered day of release by 11 in the morning for a cheaper price then going to the store.

Also I am with the TC on this one. That old lady was obviously in the wrong both with her attitude and the way she handled the situation. I cannot believe some people are calling the TC an asshole when he was trying to get walmart business over bestbuy.  
#36 Edited by Napalm (9020 posts) -
@KingWilly said:

" @SeriouslyNow said:

" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?
Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
That was obviously your grandmother and (a) nobody cares and, (b) shut up.
Also, I would have delivered a swift throat punch to that old lady. She deserves it. She deserves two, actually.

Also, FALCONPUNCH!!

Also, a random aside, if you live near an "electronics store that's named after cut potatoes like what you'd get at McDonalds", if you try and cause a giant, loud scene, the manager(s) will straight up tell you to GTFO.
#37 Posted by McGhee (6094 posts) -

Old people can be mean as fuck. Spend some time in South Florida and you'll know what I mean. You'll just love seeing that "sweet old granny" giving you the finger as she cuts you off in traffic.

#38 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -
@Ubik said:
" @Bubbameister33 said:
" First world problems. "
Yup.  If this is the worst thing to happen to you all day, I'd say it was a pretty good day. "
Yeah, I agree.  Where in Bumfuck Africa are you posting from and is your computer made of Blood Diamonds and AK-47s or just AKs?
#39 Posted by Arabes (338 posts) -

The fact that this person was old and a woman has no bearing on the fact that she needs to be able to do her jobn and treat customers respectfully. If it was a 25 year old dude being dick to the customers ye'd all be falling over yourselves to lend support to Pigmartyr and denounce Walmart customer service. Discrimination works both ways, just cause she's an old lady doesn't mean she can't be a pain in the ass and bad at her job. He should be able to expect decent customer service and Walmart should fufill their promises regardless of the age, sex or anything else of the person behind the counter. The dude just asked if other people had the same issues.

#40 Posted by Yanngc33 (4496 posts) -
@MattyFTM
You should have just asked to see her manager rather than trying to explain it to her. That's the best way to deal with things like that.
Usually when you ask for the manager, that scares them into giving you what you want
#41 Posted by RiotBananas (3600 posts) -

This thread is hilarious. Bitch should be fired for her lack of service skills.

#42 Posted by Geno (6477 posts) -
@KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" @SeriouslyNow said:
" @KingWilly said:
" price matching? Fucking serious?

Most people who find a better deal just go to the place that has it. Instead you annoy and berate someone's grandmother and expect sympathy for it?

What a dick.
"
I'm not sure if you understand basic retail theory but those stores & chains which offer price matching actually WANT people to use the service.  It means they get the business instead of the store which offers the item at the price being matched.  The woman was in the wrong because she didn't understand the value of actual trade over potential lost profit, just like you. "
Yes, saving ten fucking dollars is worth being an asshole to an old lady.  "
No, the price matching retailer getting the business is worth more to them than the customer going elsewhere.  Her problem was lack of training and product awareness mixed with poor customer skills.  Being old doesn't preclude you from being a good at your job.  Meanwhile, do you have a thing for older women? "
I have a thing for showing respect to your elders. They know a lot of shit you don't, and just because one of them is working a cash register at Wal-Mart doesn't mean you get to treat them like shit for following the protocol she was obviously instructed to follow. 

Bottom line, I'm getting sick and tired of seeing people go "dur dur old people" and treating them like a waste of space when they know a hell of a lot more than you or I do, and that knowledge can be considered invaluable to future obstacles in our lives. 
"
Uh, do you get what professionalism means? 

Person on-the-job not doing their job correctly = deserving of reprimand. Saying that a person should be off the hook simply because they're old is, ironically, condescending and as disrespectful as anything.
#43 Posted by LongMasterWolf (171 posts) -

Why is everyone so down on me and my Wal-Mart bros?


We are just like you, the only difference is you only notice the shitty associates, compared to the usual good associates