"Uh, get your facts straight before accepting grandmas that won't have heard of Motion Plus as a "large amount" of the Wii's audience. Besides, I guess you pretty much accept Nintendo got those people interested in a games console. What's so insightful in implying they won't be able to advertise the accessory just as well? They sure did well with Wii Fit, and that cost 5 times the price. Do you have inside information claiming their marketing departments lost their touch? Do those people now spend all their time on the Wii so they won't be seeing the inevitable commercials? Or did they all end up in life support and can't play games anymore? Insightful indeed."Are you really trying to argue that the Wii fan base isn't 75% casual people, who don't know a flying fuck about the game industry? The Wii market is as casual as they come. Fact. What Dave said is that these moms and families who don't know anything about the game industry aren't going to know what Wii Motion Plus is and on top of that, even if they did see something about it, they more than likely wouldn't understand what it does.
Wii MotionPlus Hits Stores On June 8th
"Except it had the highest attach rate in 2008. Again, get your facts straight."No one is arguing about how well the Wii sells....
"Except it had the highest attach rate in 2008. Again, get your facts straight."
Yeah 'facts' from an IGN article.
Turns out I had misremembered, but it certainly wasn't highest in 2008. It had an avg rate of 5.3 (which includes Wii sports... so actually more like 4.3) given the lowest was 4.2 (the PSP) i'd say it's pretty close to the bottom. (PS3 was 4.6 and 360 7.5)
Go find figures before you refer to a vague, bullet-pointed article on IGN that is incorrect.
Nice stats Milk, I bet pulling them out was dangerous, and smelly. You quote me yet it's like you respond to someone else. It must be blissful. And uh, I responded to someone's statements, so you saying "noone's arguing this" should be aimed at him.
Drain, facts from an IGN article is better than facts without source. The source there was the MI6 Conference, not IGN. It may be wrong, but please provide a more reliable source before criticizing mine.
Edit: Woop that wasn't directed at me then.
Also, i've posted the source, the NPD... Doesn't get much saucier than that.
Also, people who have a vested interest in their jobs and their products certainly always tell the truth! Just take a look at who's on that conference list, I dare you... Besides, doesn't change the fact it was plain wrong when summarized by IGN. Whether the fault was IGN or someone else, the information is still wrong.
"Nice stats, I bet pulling them out was dangerous, and smelly. You quote me yet it's like you respond to someone else. It must be blissful, to be so..."Dude, what?...I'm not the one posting attach rates and sales numbers. All I'm saying is that the vast majority of the Wii's fan base is casual. Is that hard to understand? Really? If you honestly think that the Wii fan base is "hardcore" or in the know with game industry related news then this argument is going nowhere because you're in denial or something.
Al3xand3r dude - oyu may have valid points, or at least believe that you do - its late so im not going try and pretend that i understand exactly what the problem is here
Milk, I was reffering to your 75% thing. That's a stat. Anyway, never mind.
The_A_Drain said:
""Except it had the highest attach rate in 2008. Again, get your facts straight."The_A_Drain said:
Yeah 'facts' from an IGN article.
Turns out I had misremembered, but it certainly wasn't highest in 2008. It had an avg rate of 5.3 (which includes Wii sports... so actually more like 4.3) given the lowest was 4.2 (the PSP) i'd say it's pretty close to the bottom. (PS3 was 4.6 and 360 7.5)
Go find figures before you refer to a vague, bullet-pointed article on IGN that is incorrect."
"Except this is one long string of discussion and posts are dished out first come first served... What's the matter, none of your so religiously held 'beleifs' to fall back on that now you have to 'insult' me because, OHNOES! sombody posted before I found those figures?Get a life/job delete as appropriate,"Dude, you claimed the lowest attach rate for 2008, and you link me to an article last updated in April 2008 and putting it over the PS3? That's 8 months short of the year. It's more like 2007 stats, and it's STILL far from the lowest, not to mention it doesn't disprove my far more recent source claiming Wii had the highest attach rate for 2008 as a whole. It's from the MI6 Conference, not just any random blog or analyst agency. And no, I'm not claiming casual gamers don't play the Wii. You can't quote me on that, so don't fucking claim I do that. 75% is certainly an extremely high figure, and one I won't accept unless it's backed up. But unlike Milk, you only say "large" which doesn't exactly state their impact. What's "large" then? You talk about people who own the Wii as if they're retards that are happy with Wii Sports and nothing else. Let's assume they fucking are that, if that makes you happy. I think that makes them devoid of any market value whatsoever, whether a game uses Motion Plus or not, so they're no danger to its success at all, as money will only come from people who actually buy games, and who WILL hear of Motion Plus, just like they heard of Wii Fit, if only because it WILL be bundled with Wii Sports Resort, which Nintendo WILL give a big push to.
"so you saying "noone's arguing this" should be aimed at him."
I'm not for a second arguing about how well the Wii has sold to date. I am however, arguing that a large portion of it's audience (marketing department on overdrive or not) either won't know about, understand, or care about the MotionPlus.
I'm hoping it gets picked up by serious gamers and used by serious developers though because it looks like a fantastic addition to the controller. I'm sure it will still be successful, but you can't argue against the fact a large portion of the audience wont care about it, or even know about it, due simply to who they are not any fault of marketing.
Those are the figures for the 07 to 08 period, from april to april (where you got january from is anyones guess) Maybe it's gone up in the 08/09 period, in fact with all the budget priced shovelware it wouldn't surprise me if it had.
The point still stands that you're trying to deny something which is a simple fact, a large portion of the Wii's audience consist of people who won't know what this peripheral is for, or why they need it, and will not know/care about it.
"You talk about people who own the Wii as if they're retards that are happy with Wii Sports. Let's assume they fucking are that, if that makes you happy. I think that makes devoid of any market value whatsoever, whether a game uses Motion Plus or not"
Finally. I wouldn't have used the word retard for sure (it carries a much more offensive meaning in the UK than it does elsewhere) but that's about the gist of it, and the point which started the original argument. Whether you like it or not (or can even see it, if you can't then you're not paying attention) this is a large portion of the audience, noone can expect this (or Wii Sports Resort) to sell anywhere near as well as Wii Fit for some very simple reasons that have already been discussed. And when it becomes unimportant in terms of market value whether or not a game uses MotionPlus, developers turn to the least expensive option, which is not to support it, and we see support decline. (Which i'm hoping won't happen however)
If it does then go Nintendo, congrats.
Either way, denying that it's a valid point is utterly ridiculous, large numbers of people who own a Wii are most undeniably (the conventional representation of) casual, and have no reason to care about MotionPlus (beyond whatever Nintendos marketing campaign can cook up)
Selective quoting, so I'll present the whole thing here.
Al3xand3r said:
Dude, you claimed the lowest attach rate for 2008, and you link me to an article last updated in April 2008 and putting it over the PS3? That's 8 months short of the year. It's more like 2007 stats, and it's STILL far from the lowest, not to mention it doesn't disprove my far more recent source claiming Wii had the highest attach rate for 2008 as a whole. It's from the MI6 Conference, not just any random blog or analyst agency. And no, I'm not claiming casual gamers don't play the Wii. You can't quote me on that, so don't fucking claim I do that. 75% is certainly an extremely high figure, and one I won't accept unless it's backed up. But unlike Milk, you only say "large" which doesn't exactly state their impact. What's "large" then? You talk about people who own the Wii as if they're retards that are happy with Wii Sports and nothing else. Let's assume they fucking are that, if that makes you happy. I think that makes them devoid of any market value whatsoever, whether a game uses Motion Plus or not, so they're no danger to its success at all, as money will only come from people who actually buy games, and who WILL hear of Motion Plus, just like they heard of Wii Fit, if only because it WILL be bundled with Wii Sports Resort, which Nintendo WILL give a big push to."
I've already responded to your post here with my last comment as seen above. Your point at the time was that those people were a danger to how many of the Wii developers would take up Motion Plus development and I have responded to that sufficiently, but I guess we're back to trolling the Wii in general now. Anyway, assuming something's right for the sake of presenting a counter argument to it doesn't make it a fact, unless it can be backed up, and a higher than the PS3 attach rate which is the best thing you managed to present here, and which is outdated by a full year, doesn't make that statement a fact. If anything, it proves the opposite of what you initially wanted when you flat out lied about the Wii having the lowest attach rate.
Uhhh, no, that's not how it works.
You stated that if my argument was true, that it wouldn't be a problem to the MotionPlus' succes. I responded by stating how it in fact, would be a problem.
I also stated reasons that the Wii might have a higher attach rate now, as well as reasons that the previously posted stats are just fine, they still represent an accurate figure whether it's from a year ago or not (the current ones, from the last 12 months, won't be released by the NPD until the end of the month, so they aren't technically out of date, they are the most recent figures)
Besides, since when was the onus on me to prove something which is common knowledge? It's on you to prove that the common knowledge is in fact, wrong. It is common knowledge that a large chunk of the audience is of a casual nature, and it has been well documented that overly complex things scare and bewilder them (i'm not joking here, i'm really not, it's well documented why the NES succeeded, and why the Wii controller is shaped like it is) not to mention that even without all that, they are consumers, and consumers get pissed off with too many peripherals released within a short span of time, especially in a recession.
Edit: Besides, how many times do I have to say it, the real attach rate is lower than the PS3 because those figures include the bundled Wii Sports software, which really has no business being counted in the attach rate figures. Putting it second only to the PSP, and not by a very large margin.
Ok, as long as it's clear we're discussing an unproven argument that is by no means close to being a factual truth, I'm fine with that, what if scenarios can be fun. How about the simple fact Nintendo know how to sell their games, whether they include accessories or not. The same source as you use sure as hell reinforces that. Why deny history? These weren't even available for the whole year (well, most were, in Japan).
Huh? I never disputed that... Besides, stating that consumers don't like to buy extra peripherals during a recession is hardly denying history. Given the peripherals nature, the breakdown if the Wii's consumer base, and the economic climate, it's a logical conclusion to think that it's not going to sell as well as WiiFit. And failing to see how that could potentially effect it's adoption rate by developers is just ignorant, sure it's hardly going to shrivel and die but I never claimed it would, you seem to have misinterpreted a lot of what I was saying as some kind of doomsday prophecy for the MotionPlus.
I've stated many times I think (and hope) it will be a success, but your constant denial of just how large the non-gamer market share actually is for the wii is only fooling yourself.
"Ok, as long as it's clear we're discussing an unproven argument that is by no means close to being a factual truth, I'm fine with that, what if scenarios can be fun."
Love how you changed your original post after I responded in order to make it looks like I was conceding a point...
Bottom line is if you're not going to accept common knowledge, then either disprove it, or GTFO. A large amount of the Wii's userbase is casual or non-gamer. I don't care if you don't like it, it is a fact, disputing it only makes you look foolish.
Snide, no offence, but that original post should have been a personal view, not an article. It had nothing to do with journalism and should not have been presented as such. As journalism goes, it does not portray you well. It was just as bad as Jeff's ridiculous piece of recent times. Please separate opinion pieces from journalistic pieces so as to maintain credibility and professionalism. Jeff and yourself are presenting like some of the pithy Wii haters that litter the internet like a cancerous tumour with this kind of commentary.
@ Drain, I never disputed casual gamers playing the Wii, I disputed Milk's 75% figure and nothing more. You just say "large amount" of casual gamers to avoid the consequences of stating exact figures, but a "large amount" doesn't prove shit. What's a "large amount" ? Is it 10 million out of the 50? Or is it 40 out of 50? Even assuming they won't buy Motion Plus FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR ARGUMENT AND NOTHING MORE, how much does it affect its overall sales? Can you answer that? If so, do use it in your arguments about them holding back Motion Plus developers all you want. The thing isn't even out, yet knowledgable, experienced publishers like EA and SEGA are already into it with more than one title that pretty much relies on it. I think it's off to a great start, don't you? Every hardcore gamer here seems to have a Wii around (even if it's "collecting dust" because they never clean) and many of them do seem interested in Motion Plus possibilities, so I really don't know how I'm supposed to prove something I don't state. You state specifics ("large amount" "consequences" etc), so you prove them, and their potential degree of consequence, so we can then discuss if that's enough to worry about.
Not to mention your worry is mostly about core game developers, right? They mostly only sell to core gamers also, unlike the party collections, so it's probably safe to assume the majority of their niche audience will justify their support of the peripheral as, even going by GB's standards, core gamers who own a Wii are quite interested in Motion Plus. I mean, we didn't really have this argument because you worry that the next Petz title won't have Motion Plus support yeah? It's more about if No More Heroes 3 will have it, yes? And if not, well, time and time again Nintendo has proven enough they can sell to casuals. It's what they're most criticized for this generation for fuck's sake. Selling to casuals. Meh.
Okay, some people on these boards need to chill out and stop arguing sticks and stones... or pointless bullshit as I see it.
I love my Wii. It's the best system going right now IMO. The majority doesn't agree, but that's okay. Everyone has their thing. I just laugh when people who represent the industry, further enforce stereotypes that it's only a toy for casual gamers and old folks.
"Snide lives up to his nickname once again. Is every website these days trying to be all yellow? What the heck?and you wouldn't care in the past about this, but because its wii your nintendo is god complex will not let you look past it, If a person has to attack spelling mistakes then they no longer have a point and are just a fanboy.
At least spell check. It's greets. Not greats.
It's potentially. Not potentionally.
It's interactively (or is it interactivity? It's hard to tell what you want to say). Not interactivey.
...
Nevermind. Upon closer inspection, there's so much wrong with that post, you should just rewrite all of it. Wii news deserve decent grammar, syntax, spelling and punctuation like any other topic, even when you try to pull insults out of the wrong end just for the hell of it. This isn't Kotaku."
I didn't see it in other posts, otherwise I probably would have mentioned it if it was this bad. I'd probably be nicer about it though. But that's in the past, and I look to the future having addressed it already. And I have loads of points, thank you.
Al3xand3r said:
"Bunnyman said:"Al3x, I too think the Giant Bomb staff have a greater responsibility too keep their English clean than you and I. I was totally chillin', just couldn't help myself from a bit of creepy net stalking.You are right."
I think you did yourself a disfavour devoting such a large part of your first post to spelling, because what really upset you was the way this site reports news about the Wii. You clearly have a different opinion from most people here about what the Wii is all about. That's great. It's a possibilty for me to hear both sides.
"
Tiger Woods 10 also comes out June right? I'm thinking Tiger Woods is the best implementation of this for me, considering i love the sports games.
The more I see the OP, the weaker it looks. I never said anything earlier because it has already been said well enough.. As far as articles go, this is a pretty bad one. It could have just been added as a Blog, to which case it just would have been seen as a ill educated opinion, from a Wii owner. One that clearly knows very little about the what great games are the console already, and what''s due.
Having this posted as an article only adds to a already present opinion that a few have here. It reflects badly on the site I think.
Not good journalism, stick to Blog posts with such things I reckon. If you want to bash a console in an A typical dull manner, without seeming to know what on earth is happening with the console right now.
Sorry Snide, your "Article", does nothing good in my eyes.
"The more I see the OP, the weaker it looks. I never said anything earlier because it has already been said well enough.. As far as articles go, this is a pretty bad one. It could have just been added as a Blog, to which case it just would have been seen as a ill educated opinion, from a Wii owner. One that clearly knows very little about the what great games are the console already, and what''s due. Having this posted as an article only adds to a already present opinion that a few have here. It reflects badly on the site I think.Not good journalism, stick to Blog posts with such things I reckon. If you want to bash a console in an A typical dull manner, without seeming to know what on earth is happening with the console right now.Sorry Snide, your "Article", does nothing good in my eyes."This is exactly as I saw it. I personally sent Snide a PM stating exactly this (which he hasn't replied to, as is his right). It should not have had the bracketed word article next to it. It should have just been one person's view or opinion, which Snide is perfectly entitled to. Separate journalism from opinion. Jeff should learn to do the same.
Stop complaining about the quality of the articles. Unless you are paid to critique or employed as a copy editor keep your mouths shut.
Back to the topic at hand, I'm quite interested in the Wii MotionPlus. I love tennis so I'm hoping that Resorts and Grand Slam Tennis live up to the hype.
"Stop complaining about the quality of the articles. Unless you are paid to critique or employed as a copy editor keep your mouths shut.When an article is as bad as this and Jeff's, we are fully entitled to critique it. It doesn't take a copy editor to see that this was a poor excuse for an article and just plain bad journalism. It was an opinion, nothing more and should never have been posted as an article. Snide should apologise to the readership for such shoddy work.
"Stop complaining about the quality of the articles. Unless you are paid to critique or employed as a copy editor keep your mouths shut.Back to the topic at hand, I'm quite interested in the Wii MotionPlus. I love tennis so I'm hoping that Resorts and Grand Slam Tennis live up to the hype."
Everyone one on this forum is free to impart their opinion on any of the content the site features, if it's done so respectfully. unlike you telling me and others to shut our mouths, simply because we point out the fact it is a weak article for a number of reasons.
@ Oldschool
I get the impression all the members of the team are oblivious to what's happening on Wii. They seem to have had prejudices which have prevented them from following quality content on the console. I get the impression they haven't got a clue what's happening with it quite frankly. They think they know, but they don't, They have a small team and you cannot blame them for following their own interests in gaming, especially now they they are free, so to speak.
It would be nice to have somebody focusing on Wii and DS, given the large-high numbers of owners, but I cannot see that happening. We members can help though. If there were a way in which members could submit well written articles I would appreciate that greatly, as I am sure others would do too. Gamespot has a similar system, whereby members can have an article featured on the front page. We should also.
I get the impression all the members of the team are oblivious to what's happening on Wii. They seem to have had prejudices which have prevented them from following quality content on the console. I get the impression they haven't got a clue what's happening with it quite frankly. They think they know, but they don't, They have a small team and you cannot blame them for following their own interests in gaming, especially now they they are free, so to speak.
It would be nice to have somebody focusing on Wii and DS, given the large-high numbers of owners, but I cannot see that happening. We members can help though.
Well said.
(emphasis by me)
How can people claim they like giant bomb for its looseness and less formal approach to journalism and then scream at them to keep their opinions out of articles?
"How can people claim they like giant bomb for its looseness and less formal approach to journalism and then scream at them to keep their opinions out of articles?"That's easy. Distinguish between opinion and journalism (articles). Snide should have written an article about the new product and then written a separate thread that was an opinion. He could say what ever he wanted in his opinion thread. As it is, he wrote like a Tabloid newspaper or Fox news rather than say, the BBC.
"No, you see you two are free to agree or disagree on his view of the Wii (it being full of shovelware, etc.) However, it is not your place to critique his article as if you were being paid for it. Don't tell other people how to do their job."You are wrong, wrong, wrong. WE are free to critique his work. That is a proper and appropriate right of a consumer (us). If someone is clearly doing a bad job, then it has to be said. It is unlikely that they will criticise themselves. It helps keep the industry on its toes.
The article has been extensively edited mind you, its original form was far worse. Now it at least recognises that there's one game out at the same time (though I think Tiger Woods is also set for June, but this may be false, and Virtua Tennis is also set for June, but you won't be buying both that and Grand Slam Tennis, it's one or the other of course). It still shows it was originally poorly researched, but at least some of it has been redeemed. On the other hand, there's obvious criticism about the lack of supported games and I find that somewhat absurd, considering the only reason it's getting released earlier than Wii Sports Resort (which is not a "refresh" of the original, what the heck? didn't you all watch E3 and insult Nintendo, now you don't remember what you insulted?) is to not leave publishers like SEGA and Electronic Arts hanging, as when rumours of a "delay" surfaced everyone jumped @ Nintendo's throat over this issue (even though they never announced dates). Damned if you don't, damned if you do, Nintendo. It also still proceeds to unwarranted negative speculation with heavy wording like "bastard childs" as if anyone told Sony off for leaving people who didn't upgrade to the Dual Shock as "bastard childs" in the PS1 era. Now I'm not saying let Nintendo off the hook easy, but why differentiate? They didn't rape anyone's sister, nor are any first parties in the industry doing their thing for anything but money.
In any case, the edits make for a far better article despite some of the attitude remaining intact, as it at least implies it's more light hearted now. I certainly would have been more subtle in my criticisms (much like the paragraph above) if the article you can all read right now was the article I read when I first saw it. I'm just saying, because I understand my responses, as they remain in their original form, appear to be way over the top.
I personally come to Giant Bomb for the opinions of staff who I think are entertaining and interesting, if I wanted a straight forward press release about a certain product I'd go to the producer or retailers website.
To say that this article is bad because he expresses his own opinion about the Wii is somewhat missing the point in the websites ethos. If you yourself visit this site for your gaming news and nowhere else (e.g. kotaku,destructoid etc.) and want cold hard facts, you are severely in the minority and arguably in the wrong place.
"Calidreth said:Clearly doing a bad job- in your opinon the same way he is allowed to show his opinion in his articles, along witht he other staff -y'know on their fricking website"No, you see you two are free to agree or disagree on his view of the Wii (it being full of shovelware, etc.) However, it is not your place to critique his article as if you were being paid for it. Don't tell other people how to do their job."You are wrong, wrong, wrong. WE are free to critique his work. That is a proper and appropriate right of a consumer (us). If someone is clearly doing a bad job, then it has to be said. It is unlikely that they will criticise themselves. It helps keep the industry on its toes.Don't for one second think that this is some wholesale criticism of Snide. It isn't. Just this shoddy article.Here is another he could have said exactly the same thing and still kept the integrity of proper journalism. His original post, being an article, should have just been about the news, presented in a factual way. Then he could have posted his personal views in a separate follow up post. That way the reader would read the article, untainted by personal view. Then the replies would have been kept separate as well.This still doesn't take into account that as an article, it was poorly researched as shown by others."
The article has been heavily edited as my last post explains. That means, the author agreed it was bad, as he certainly didn't have any kind of pressure just because 2-4 people out of the whole Giant Bomb community argued about his points and motives or whatever. End of, fanboys.
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