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#51 Edited by 4f3f4324f342 (115 posts) -

Again Patrick's feminist agenda Please read your comments to get your fans opinions.

So Spelunky is a game where you can play as a female(later unlocked) or a male
The damsels are either Males, Females or Dogs....

Answer me this.... How is this sexist?

It's actually nothing to think about it simply isn't sexist please someone tell me how they can possibly think it is sexist.

Other Problem

Feminist: Women shouldn't always be damsels
Developer: Okay, we will make a game in which men and women can be Damsels
Feminist: This is still not good enough because it reinforces negative woman stereo types
Developer: What if we make it so that there are female playable characters
Feminist: You don't understand simply portraying a woman as a damsel is a negative stereotype.

Fundamental question: Do you think that feminists simply want the damsel mechanicism removed or do they want only male damsels? I don't seem to understand what they want


Feminist: Women as protaginists are simply men disguised as women

Developer: Ok we will give them complex emotions and make them more like women
Feminist: How sexist you are claiming that we are weak and emotional!!!!
Fundamental Question: If you make a tough soldier type women for a war game is this really sexist?

Please explain these inconsistencies I think Derek Yu should not feed the crazy feminist agenda and I think its ruining games.

#52 Posted by Bishop113 (191 posts) -
#53 Edited by YummyTreeSap (308 posts) -

Shit, y'all, Patrick doesn't even directly say anything about feminism/sexism in video games and you all are still jumping on him for it. It's completely absurd and makes me ashamed as someone who plays video games.

All he was commenting on is was that it's cool for there to be civil discourse in this world, when so much seems to instead be an endless onslaught of vitriol. That doesn't accomplish a whole lot (the vitriol), and it's very important to consider how others feel about things. Derek Yu doing that is pretty awesome.

Even as someone fairly on the 'hardcore' end of feminism, I don't particularly care for Anita S., but the degree of semi-literate (at best) backlash she gets against her makes it pretty much a default that I have to side with her. Her heart is in the right place, but at the same time she's often misguided and doesn't seem to have a particularly solid grasp on feminist theory or much of any theory at all. It's all pop-feminism, and I don't mean that in a good way (i.e. bringing heavier theoretical stuff to a broader audience). That said, she does even if not totally intentionally bring up important topics. It's just unfortunate that so many mouth-breathing nerds are so wrapped up in themselves to even bother considering perspectives outside their own as having validity.

#54 Posted by 4f3f4324f342 (115 posts) -

@yummytreesap:

"I hope more people read this exchange between Anita Sarkeesian and Spelunky creator Derek Yu. Sarkeesian had previously used Spelunky as an example of the “damsel in distress” trope that has been core to some of her arguments about problematic game design, and when asked about this, Yu responded patiently, thoughtfully, and with empathy. This is the kind of dialogue that sparks change

, even if it doesn’t result in any meaningful change to Spelunky itself. It’s about listening to other people and hearing them out." - Patrick

It's pretty clear through this statement he wants games to match the feminist agenda

I think that yes Women want more games where you can play as females that arn't sexualised, and they are coming out to meet that demand. However don't insult "nerds" for being "irrational" they just don't want media they love to be warped by the feminist propoganda

#55 Edited by jimmyfenix (3851 posts) -

@hassun: I think brad should have done a video when everyone was crying over his DMC review!

#56 Posted by Psychohead (142 posts) -

Man, I really tried to like PA Report, but Christ if everything Kuchera writes doesn't just end up sounding like a grumpy old man on his porch. Which is a pity, because I don't even really disagree with the point he was trying to make in his article. Just, man, lighten up, Ben!

#57 Edited by ManlyBeast (1147 posts) -

Enjoyed the article. Everything but the Anita Sarkeesian part. Such a ridiculous thing for her to complain about. She loves the attention and you just gave her more but it's your article, so be it.

#58 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Um, okay?

I don't get video game people sometimes.

#59 Posted by Abendlaender (2779 posts) -

Can you really call it an "exchange" if there was like one tweet?

#62 Edited by nsmb2_mario (72 posts) -

These articles always make me laugh. I think some of you miss the fact Patrick is clearly joking posting this moral stuff, or am I also falling for the joke that you all take this serious? Good stuff either way!

#63 Edited by Milkman (16618 posts) -
#64 Edited by WMWA (1160 posts) -

@bishop113: yes, please, leave. you're not wanted

#65 Posted by Lively (298 posts) -

I guess I'll go ahead and voice my support for Patrick covering the political / cultural side of gaming. Games are maturing as an art form, and along with that comes the criticism and analysis that any expressive medium deserves.

Trying to understand a game on this level and pointing out certain problematic aspects doesn't mean rejecting it entirely, and as far as I can tell no one is trying to do that.

#67 Posted by brownsfantb (391 posts) -

That Neogaf link at the bottom of the article was horrifying. At first I didn't know what he was doing. As I read the post I thought, "No, this can't be what I think it is." Unfortunately, it was. Who actually wants to do that?

#69 Edited by Redhotchilimist (202 posts) -

Some fun little games on Worth Playing this week. Teslagrad doesn't look as great as in the trailer I think, but Pause Ahead looked fun and Rambo: Last Blood seemed good for a laugh, at least. I wonder if Pause Ahead is going for a thing where the developer is supposed to be the villain? I prefer that to indiegames with lots of references, I guess, even if there are Thwomps all over it. Grapple Knight had me excited, but it looks like the momentum stops all the time instead of increasing, so that's a bummer, in addition to the crash it had at the

Thoar. That article about XCOM Declassified is real interesting, even if it has no bearing on me getting the game or not. "How to apologize to a trans person" isn't. What's that got to do with gaming? Are there a lot of trans slurs in online gaming, or something like that? I don't mind articles about sexism in game design or the conversation between Yu and Sarkeesian, don't listen to the haters, that's interesting stuff. But it's weird when it's just about some random minority, unrelated to any video game issue I've heard about.

"The Tale of Magicians" brought me back to art school again. It's nice that Corrypt has a meaning that it brings about in its gameplay, but it should also be enjoyable to play. Those other indies giving him tips on how to make a living out of it(And praising his concepts) have the right idea, they obviously would like him to continue to be able to make cool stuff and improve on it. His message could totally come through in a nicer art style. I appreciate that the article writer likes how it looks and is organic and stuff, but people apparently don't agree with that, myself included.

The articles on Gone Home are enlightening. I remember being bummed out by the Polygon review(I think that was it) because the author said it was the first time she could relate or believe in a video game character. Felt that was absolutely bananas. Maybe it's just white privelige, but I don't remember any game where I had to play an overweight, redheaded, bearded nerd to feel attachment to the characters of games I like. It's good that these guys finally got that attachment, but it's odd to me that it had to be because of well written characters that went through the exact same things they did instead of characters that are fun to play as. Still, happy there's something being made for those folks.

Of course the Oculus Rift would be used to make VR porn at some point. That's... not for me, but I somehow appreciate that VR porn is now something that exists instead of being a scifi thing.

The youtube videos were pretty funny. Loved Kasavin reading that complaint.

#71 Posted by 4f3f4324f342 (115 posts) -

@milkman said:

@dr_zox: no one cares.

No one cares about what?

Answer the questions about how exsactly spelunky is sexist?

#72 Posted by Lively (298 posts) -

@dr_zox said:

Answer the questions about how exsactly spelunky is sexist?

I don't think people are claiming that Spelunky is explicitly sexist on its own, but rather that it reflects a common portrayal of women as helpless damsels.

Having the choice of other damsels is a good step, but the woman is still the default last I checked. And if the creator of the actual game acknowledges that this is a negative trope, I think he's probably worth listening to.

#73 Edited by 4f3f4324f342 (115 posts) -

@lively:

The woman isn't default they are all selected as default and randomly chosen so you still havn't managed to support a sexist claim.

The creator backed down because he is the type of guy to not want to offend anyone. But I see a problem with this... I mean what If I said that having a male as a default starting character reemphasises male disposablitiy.... Or that his showing of spirituallity in the game offends my religion....
very soon you wouldn't have a game.

Next time there is someone attacking a female in real life I might just leave it alone... I mean I wouldn't want anyone thinking that I was helping a damsel in distress and reinforcing negative female stereotypes. She should be strong enough to look after herself afterall. In fact police should stop supporting women as well come to thing about it. It may reinforce negative stereotypes against the weak women. (sarcasim intended)

#74 Posted by ManMadeGod (1559 posts) -

"being white in a society that provides invisible bonuses just for being white"

list them

#75 Posted by Lively (298 posts) -

@manmadegod: Well for one, there have been studies that send out identical job applications, with some of them bearing stereotypically African-american sounding names, and the non-black sounding applicant names nearly always get more responses.

#76 Posted by mrfluke (5127 posts) -

So it's patrick the politician we're going to be getting from now on in worth reading? Is nearly every week going to have some style of politics shit like this? Like Goddamm patrick plays so much different types of games, and when he's ready he's right up there with shoemaker as the most jaded grumpy cynical old man in the business.

I might stop reading worth reading for good if that's the case, I also really don't want to hate patrick, as its very easy to hate him, but I don't want to.

So I think I'm just gonna stick to worth playing and spookin then. Cause patrick the entertainer is still solid enough.

#77 Edited by Marokai (2861 posts) -

@yummytreesap said:

Shit, y'all, Patrick doesn't even directly say anything about feminism/sexism in video games and you all are still jumping on him for it. It's completely absurd and makes me ashamed as someone who plays video games.

All he was commenting on is was that it's cool for there to be civil discourse in this world, when so much seems to instead be an endless onslaught of vitriol. That doesn't accomplish a whole lot (the vitriol), and it's very important to consider how others feel about things. Derek Yu doing that is pretty awesome.

The problem I have with this whole thing is that I don't understand what the hell kind of "change" that "conversation" is supposed to have. All I saw is a developer cautiously trying to calm any fires before they could start because Anita Sarkeesian made an absurd statement about how Spelunky apparently considers women as equals to dogs, or something. That doesn't solve anything.

When I think of "discourse" I don't think of "two people smiling and then ultimately accomplishing nothing." I think of, you know, something actually coming out of it. I don't really know why we should fall head over heels for civility for civility's sake. That "conversation" accomplished nothing. Derek Yu's response is the worst possible outcome of this Tropes vs. Women in Gaming junk, because it's now making developers afraid of their own mechanics and acting like they have to apologize or worry they're offending someone for doing nothing offensive at all, all because of some person on YouTube putting words in their mouths.

How is this helpful or constructive in any way? But hurray! Civility! Everyone held hands!

#78 Edited by BisonHero (6396 posts) -

@lively said:

@manmadegod: Well for one, there have been studies that send out identical job applications, with some of them bearing stereotypically African-american sounding names, and the non-black sounding applicant names nearly always get more responses.

WELL MAYBE PEOPLE SHOULD THINK TWICE ABOUT HAVING BLACK-SOUNDING NAMES.

On a serious note, yeah ManMadeGod, how are you even questioning that white people get some sweet passive bonuses, at least in American society? It's not enough to completely prevent a nonwhite person from being successful, but nonwhite people certainly don't get top preference very often, except maybe when it comes to getting pulled over by the cops for no particular reason.

#79 Posted by AngriGhandi (772 posts) -

I find the tone of that Samantha Allen article more than a little creepy. With that tone being somewhere between "withering condescension" and "welcome to re-education camp; recite your sins."

You don't convince people to join your way of thinking by alienating them with shame and preconditions! As appealing as it might seem, it just doesn't ever work.

Ever.

...Also, video games.

#80 Posted by BisonHero (6396 posts) -

@mrlog said:

never stop being complete shit, giantbomb comments.

They're not bad all the time - just when someone is trying to have an adult conversation.

I'd characterize it more as "Grrrrr, I don't like having my viewpoints challenged. Can't we just get back to talking about the graphics on level 3?"

#81 Posted by Marokai (2861 posts) -

You know what, though? In threads like these, and discussions like these, there are also kind of always a lot really great comments that go completely unnoticed. There are always idiots in these conversations and there will be idiots in any conversation you ever try to have (particularly on the internet), but from my perspective, the people most unwilling to move from their positions (or admit to any nuance whatsoever) are the folks that aren't used to chiming into these debates with anything other than "well, lol, there's that male white privilege again!" and getting retweeted.

#83 Posted by ManMadeGod (1559 posts) -

@lively said:

@manmadegod: Well for one, there have been studies that send out identical job applications, with some of them bearing stereotypically African-american sounding names, and the non-black sounding applicant names nearly always get more responses.

WELL MAYBE PEOPLE SHOULD THINK TWICE ABOUT HAVING BLACK-SOUNDING NAMES.

On a serious note, yeah ManMadeGod, how are you even questioning that white people get some sweet passive bonuses, at least in American society? It's not enough to completely prevent a nonwhite person from being successful, but nonwhite people certainly don't get top preference very often, except maybe when it comes to getting pulled over by the cops for no particular reason.

I questioned nothing, I just want examples. If the bonuses are so plentiful, can you list them? Vague comments don't help me............

And when you refer to nonwhite, do you really mean black? Pretty sure Asian Americans don't get pulled over as much.

#84 Edited by TreuloseTomate (33 posts) -

@marokai said:

The problem I have with this whole thing is that I don't understand what the hell kind of "change" that "conversation" is supposed to have. All I saw is a developer cautiously trying to calm any fires before they could start because Anita Sarkeesian made an absurd statement about how Spelunky apparently considers women as equals to dogs, or something. That doesn't solve anything.

When I think of "discourse" I don't think of "two people smiling and then ultimately accomplishing nothing." I think of, you know, something actually coming out of it. I don't really know why we should fall head over heels for civility for civility's sake. That "conversation" accomplished nothing. Derek Yu's response is the worst possible outcome of this Tropes vs. Women in Gaming junk, because it's now making developers afraid of their own mechanics and acting like they have to apologize or worry they're offending someone for doing nothing offensive at all, all because of some person on YouTube putting words in their mouths.

How is this helpful or constructive in any way? But hurray! Civility! Everyone held hands!

What I find most baffling is that we're talking about Spelunky here... It uses a lot of old Indiana Jones clichès and is clearly not meant to be taken seriously. It's a joke. A parody. You're supposed to laugh.

But the "paragon" of feminism tweeted about it, so we better back down in shame.

#85 Edited by Elod (76 posts) -

That's a great article on Schilling. Really can't not feel bad for the guy after learning about the crap that went down with 38.

#86 Edited by Milkman (16618 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

So it's patrick the politician we're going to be getting from now on in worth reading? Is nearly every week going to have some style of politics shit like this? Like Goddamm patrick plays so much different types of games, and when he's ready he's right up there with shoemaker as the most jaded grumpy cynical old man in the business.

I might stop reading worth reading for good if that's the case, I also really don't want to hate patrick, as its very easy to hate him, but I don't want to.

So I think I'm just gonna stick to worth playing and spookin then. Cause patrick the entertainer is still solid enough.

These kind of conversations are happening more and more often in video games. No matter your opinion of them, they are important. You don't have to read them. There is a grand total of one, small paragraph about "politics" (or whatever) in this article. Presenting these kind of discussions does not make Patrick a "jaded grumpy cynical old man." It makes him an adult who's job it is to talk about video games.

Fucking deal with it.

#87 Posted by Elwoodan (807 posts) -

its always seemed odd to me that the people who are most deeply embedded into video game culture (namely, some of the commenters on a site like giantbomb) are so terrified of discussion of merits/problems with the medium. Calm down, no one is trying to take your guns away.

#88 Edited by mrfluke (5127 posts) -
#89 Posted by 4f3f4324f342 (115 posts) -

@milkman:

Hey Milkman,

Actually contribute to the conversation rather then saying things like "noone cares" and "deal with it"

Ultimatly Derek Yu is being made to apologize for problems that aren't really problems because he is a nice guy and people like Patrick are pushing anita's propoganda. Nice guys always apologize even if they havn't done anything wrong and they need others to stick up for them.

Don't get me wrong I think there are some negative portrayals of females in game media (or any media) but there are problems on both sides that need to be looked at (such as the disposable/predatoral male).

I don't mind patrick reporting feminism, but at least he should try and report what both sides are saying or read the comments rather then becoming a feminist propoganda machine

#90 Posted by mrfluke (5127 posts) -

@dr_zox: don't bother with him hes basically a borderline troll at this point,

literally almost anytime someone says something remotely bad about patrick, he shows up and starts arguing with the user. Look at what I said for example, a tame name calling of patrick saying that at times he's a cynical jaded old man and that I won't be reading worth reading anymore, but still watch the other content patrick comes out with,

And then boom, he shows up,,

dude is a hypocrite when he's ready, when the Phil fish fez 2 thing was going on he was talking about how there's so much assholes on the Internet and its the worst, and then as you can see in the comments here, basically acts like an asshole when anyone says anything remotely bad of something he's a fan of.

#92 Posted by Redhotchilimist (202 posts) -

I forgot: http://fenglee.com/game/aog/

Wanted to recommend Feng Li's Attack on Titan Tribute Game. It's based on a show that takes place in a postapocalyptic medieval world where zombie-like giants are eradicating humanity and man has retreated behind enormous walled-in cities. That's not the important part. The important part is that they fight the titans by using grappling hooks, jetpacks and huge box cutter knives, and this guy made a game out of that. Apparantly the man working on Energy Hook keeps getting mails about it. I don't doubt that his game will play way better than this one does, but it should be an interesting game to compare it with. Also it's way too hard for me.

#94 Posted by LiquidPenguins (181 posts) -

The problem with giving Gone Home a high score on a gaming review site is:

1) it isn't a game

2) you're recommending people spend $20 for an hour and don't even mention this

#95 Posted by Milkman (16618 posts) -

@mrfluke: Yes, I'm the troll. Not the guy who throws a hissy fit because one tiny part of an article presents a discussion that makes him uncomfortable.

lol

@dr_zox: Well, I did say more stuff before I said "deal with it" and I've contributed to this conversation in countless threads over the last year or so.

If you're going to dismiss Derek's stance as him "just trying to be nice" than there's no point in even having a conversation. I don't know how he really feels and neither do you. It's absolutely his right to engage in a real dialogue about this if he wants.

On top of that, have you even watched the video? She brings up Spelunky to reinforce the point that the "damsel in distress" trope is the issue and simply gender swapping doesn't fix it. You would be able to better argue your stance if you actually knew the point she was making about the game.

#96 Posted by BreakfastKing (111 posts) -

I really love discussing the idea of "value" in games. I worked at Gamestop for four years, and one of the most common questions I'd get from people would be something like "Hey. I've got X amount of money, which of these games should I spend it on?". I'd ask a few questions to probe their interests (assuming I didn't already know them, we had a lot of regulars) and almost always help them come to a game that they're happy with.

Now, obviously value has a different meaning in a retail environment than it does in a review score. You can't control when people read a review, whereas in retail each game has a set price at that moment in time. You're also talking to the player at a specific moment in their life. How much time someone has to play video games and how much time someone has THAT WEEK to play video games are often very different answers. Perhaps they'd love to play Assassin's Creed 3, but they just marathon'd through the whole series and could use a break. A lot of things that would be highly objective or personal to the reviewer become almost exclusively personal to the player.

That all being said, the idea of value is still important in either setting. Something reviewers often cite as their reason to not address the issue is that they don't know how much time/money/etc a given person has and that their audience hits all parts of the spectrum on each of those concerns. However, what reviewers CAN compare to is other games.

For example, personally I think Gone Home was excellent. Were I to review it, I would probably mention that its not a long game but that the experience is one that will stick with me for a very long time. I don't feel like the price is an issue, but length certainly is to some people. Regardless of what someone spends on a game, many people prefer to play games that are at least average in length if they are going to get into something, and the inverse is certainly true too, many people love games to be short and sweet.

Now, if I were to review a game like, say, Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, I would probably mention that it was also a short game, but that in my opinion it was too short. When a player spends 60 bucks on a game, they almost universally expect some combination of quality and length. If a game doesn't meet the standards of either set by other games that release at $60, the review score should reflect that. Even without changing the game at all, if Revengeance was 20 or 30 dollars, you'd see it getting much better reviews because, compared to other games at that price, it'd be a great value.

I think value is super important to the way we talk about games, whether we use the word explicitly or not. I think the issue at hand is people associating game hours per dollar as some secret formula for value. As long as you consider as many other factors as applicable to the game you're reviewing, you're in good shape.

PS, Totes going to my first PAX! I will see you there Patrick!

#97 Posted by paulunga (1971 posts) -

What's up with the recent rise of shit games like Soda Drinker, Surgeon Simulator or this VHS game? It kinda reminds me of the Japanese phenomenon "kusoge".

#98 Edited by Agnosticwatermelon (49 posts) -

@ssully said:

Derek Yu is an adult.

He actually listened, internalized, and respectfully responded to criticism of his work. Why can't we all be like this?

Thanks for sharing this as well as everything else here Patrick.

Because gamers (and devs to an extent) have a really bad problem with taking criticism to personally. When anita said that the damsel was sexist she didn't mean that the entire game was bad and Derek was a bad person for putting it in, she just meant that particular mechanic was a little shitty. That's why a bunch of those comments seemed to be generally confused as to why Yu responded the way he did.

[e] I mean shoot, just going through the comments on this page and I already found a few "playing games doesn't make me sexist!" as if that's what she meant at all.

#99 Posted by Daneian (1226 posts) -

The problem with the Spelunky criticism is that it doesn't address that the damsel mechanic was put in the game purely for its value as gameplay.

The game is about navigating hazardous environments for treasure so Yu thought up challenge that involves successfully taking a destructible item to the end of the level. The item he would select to use would be based on two factors: its ability to visually represent when it was damaged and the challenge failed and to maximize player investment in the item so they will want to get it to the end.

He'd already used treasure everywhere in the game so choosing another, more valuable treasure, would have been redundant. A human NPC is kinda the perfect choice. Remember that Spelunky is about a set of universal rules that everything in the game adheres to. He had already established the rules for player damage so he wouldn't need to come up with an entirely new concept.

That he worked to give players three choices for the sprite is actually quite generous since he was trying to account for a variety of players just as he did by providing several Spelunker models.