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#1 Edited by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

So I was reading into MMOs that used to feature permanent death, and a few that still do, and I became completely enamored with the concept. Specifically, I was reading up on how Jedi used to function in Star Wars Galaxy and was amazed with how cool it sounded, how it actually gave the Jedi character weight in the world and allowed the devs to make them extremely powerful simply because one death would end them forever. It sounded incredible, and then there was the idea that using the force in public would mark you for death and then everyone would come after you and GOD DAMN IT SOUNDS SO COOL.

It also fixes a problem I've been trying to work out forever which is how do you cultivate a player mythology in a game that isn't EVE Online. When I say player mythology I mean the server lore that players themselves build over the course of an MMO's lifespan. In more recent games like WoW and all the games that copied WoW this comes from people who do things the first and in game events like that time Blizzard fucked up and unleashed the black plague. The problem is this tends to be super fucking boring so no one really cares or considers it to be an integral part of the experience.

As EVE has proven though, this is actually one of the most engaging parts of an MMO if done correctly. It's so appealing, in fact, that it often stretches outside the bounds of the game's community and draws new players in. Not only is it a veritable player run PR machine, but it also creates a world that is more fun to exist in and gives players a feeling that they too can shape the history of this world. But developers don't build with this in mind, instead they copy WoW because it got the fundamental gameplay aspects of the MMO so very very right and was so successful because of it that people tend not to see past that, I of course say this from a position of years upon years of working as a veteran MMO developer.

Okay, look. The point is that player mythology is important but games just aren't built for it. You need a way to limit resources, make power meaningful, and have a world with a ruleset that allows for players to make drastic changes. This is very very hard to do within the WoW framework, or at least it seems to be. I think permadeath solves a lot of these problems, despite how horrible this idea sounds.

Imagine if attaining level 80 in WoW was almost impossible, maybe there were only 100 people in the entire world who were level 80. Or, as another example, let's say there was a instance so deadly, so devilishly hard, that only the most brave and foolhardy of players would ever dare enter it, and those who did would spend days if not weeks preparing, pouring over all the data people had collected, knowing full well that months of their hard work could be erased in an instant if they should fail. What if MMOs had heroes, living legends that could be approached and interacted with, not as NPCs but as real player avatars.

I think there are many other advantages to allowing permanent death into an MMO too. It makes resources more scarce allowing for a more realistic economy, world PvP becomes meaningful and a real threat rather than a mild annoyance, and with both these things comes a place for player run governments and organizations. Imagine running a bandit ring in WoW that roved around picking off players and plundering their riches or a mercenary corp that protected the hub cities in exchange for a weekly payout from a player run government body. Obviously these kind of things require a bit more work to be properly implemented, but i think introducing permadeath solves a lot of the prerequisites.

More than anything I think introducing permadeath into a game like this brings in a certain audience that would appreciate why it is there and exploit that fact. I think introducing permadeath in a game like WoW as it is now, or even as it was when it launched, would be disastrous simply because of how it was built and the kind of audeince it caters too. I do think it has a place in the MMO genre though and that it could be the next step forward that people have been struggling to grab onto for years now, and if not it is certainly worth exploring as it may lead to even more creative solutions for how to cultivate a true player mythology.

Words.

#2 Posted by yoshimitz707 (2453 posts) -

Permadeath is a stupid idea. I already hate replaying parts of games when I die and have to start from the last time I saved. Why would I want to keep doing the same thing over and over?

#3 Posted by Mijati (949 posts) -

Disconnections, Lag Spikes, stuff like that makes me say no.

Games with a high death penalty can be awesome (RuneScape for example, although it has been toned down a lot recently but when you die you lose all but 3 items you have on you) works great, especially in a PvP environment (where you lose everything but one item).

#4 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

@yoshimitz707 said:

Permadeath is a stupid idea. I already hate replaying parts of games when I die and have to start from the last time I saved. Why would I want to keep doing the same thing over and over?

Because your accomplishments actually matter.

By the same token I could ask why you think players should be rewarded for beating their head against a brick wall for an hour and coming out victorious simply due to dumb luck.

Really it comes down to this, which is more impressive? Someone who fought a bear and lived to tell about it or an MMO character that killed a dragon.

#5 Posted by ajamafalous (12147 posts) -

Absolutely not.

#6 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

I don't know. My issue with permadeath in something like an MMO is that the things that are important in an MMO are usually gained through a strict level-to-level grind. Things like skills, and to some degree, gear. If these things were something different, like, say, influence over NPCs or factions, or story choices (and implementing those in an MMO is an entirely different topic), then I'd be more tempted to try it out.

I suppose the real issue here is that permadeath has to be meaningful, and not just a grind under a different name.

#7 Posted by TwoLines (2839 posts) -

A neat idea, I like roguelikes, however the lag and disconnections would ruin it. Also, I bet we would witness a news story about a teenager killing his parents because they turned off his/her computer. People don't like dying in MMORPGs without permadeath. Imagine what would happen if... *shudders* Ya know what? I'd rather not.

#8 Posted by stinky (1553 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish said:

Really it comes down to this, which is more impressive? Someone who fought a bear and lived to tell about it or an MMO character that killed a dragon.

you can tell me about your game accomplishments all day long and i will never be impressed. that shit is meaningless.

tell me about a game someone had fun playing and i will look it up.

#9 Posted by Rusputin (74 posts) -

Eh.... I understand the potential appeal, but the amount of broken computers and keyboards from the rage that would ensue would be pretty terrible. It was always bad news if you played D2 hardcore, then just happened to lag for half a second when Lister the Tormentor spawned, only to find yourself suddenly lacking a character you poured many hours and many, many pounds of love and care into.

#10 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

@DarkDude: @Rusputin: I honestly don't see the realities of playing an online game, lag/disconnects/ect., to much of a hindrance when it comes to something like this. There are ways to design around that simply aren't done as it is now because there is no need for it. Maybe every time you log out, or lose your connection, your character is placed within a bubble of protection, or maybe even taken to another plane entirely, where they are safe from combat and death.

These are just two quick off hand examples, but I think they illustrate the point well enough. And even then, I'd like to keep this discussion on the possibilities, or perhaps failings, of the concept rather than realities of implementing something like this. I don't intend to build an MMO, at least not any time soon, and while you both make very apt points it's really the idea I'd rather explore.

#11 Posted by Itwastuesday (982 posts) -

I wouldn't play an MMO with permanent character death. My knee-jerk reaction is that the same thing would happen in the MMO that happens in any game I play where I die and lose tons of progress because of it- which is never playing that game again. The moment I started a new character at level 1 and began doing the same quests I'd done before, it'd be over.

#12 Posted by DarkShaper (1349 posts) -

People seem to be responding to this like they would just drop permadeath into WOW. If the game was built around it it could be great. 

#13 Posted by Mijati (949 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish: Then you'd have people purposely disconnecting when they're about to die ;).

Although I guess it's something Hardcore characters had to put up with in Diablo 2 on Battle.Net so obviously not a huge deal for some people but for me it'd be a deal breaker. It'd have to be a hugely different style of MMO to make it work anyway as there's lots of things you'd need to take into consideration and make the risk vs reward part of it awesome otherwise no one would do it.

#14 Posted by dudeglove (8270 posts) -

D2 had that option with hardcore mode. I never saw the appeal. Learning to rapidly hit ESC, then up, then up, then enter to avoid permadeath was kind of dumb.

#15 Posted by Subjugation (4740 posts) -

No way. There are way too many factors that could potentially screw you over. Plus, a giant, glaring problem with MMO's already is the grind and this would make that worse.

#16 Posted by datarez (574 posts) -

I played a couple perma-death MUDs back in the day. They were really different with just a few people on a server at a time though.

I think it would be a very interesting idea for a MMO but the games themselves would have to be so different than they are now. MMOs are not designed with the breadth of content for people to feel engaged while still being relatively safe in their adventures. Right now you get a group and it's mow everything down without a challenge or go do an encounter where you die over and over to learn the mechanics. I play Skyrim on normal and play it not to die. I have a few times but I do everything not to. There is a lot in that world to where I feel challenged fighting the stuff I can beat and know what to stay away from for the most part. A MMO would also need to flesh out roles for people to do mundane stuff like shops or whatever. I'm sure people would enjoy the world and idea of perma death but want to stay away from danger.

Sorry it's hard for me to articulate but I'm trying to say that a perma-death mmo would have to be designed so differently it's hard to imagine what it would be like in comparison to anything we have. I think I'd have more fun with a 1-10 person perma-death game that I could adventure in that was more like Skyrim. I don't need massive if the pay off isn't there. It'd be more like a D&D crew rolling through a world instead of just a bunch of randoms.

#17 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

No way. There are way too many factors that could potentially screw you over. Plus, a giant, glaring problem with MMO's already is the grind and this would make that worse.

Exactly, that is a huge problem with MMOs that needs to go away and would NEED to go away for this concept to ever work. Grind is a stupid arbitrary way of forcing players to climb a ladder so content candesigned and scaled easily. It isn't fun and most players don't have fun doing it. When people are selling guides on how to rush through 80% of your game so they can start having fun there is a problem.

#18 Posted by Sweep (8975 posts) -

Sure, why not. Eve online has some pretty harsh repercussions for death already, it wouldn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to increase that further still. It would be interesting to see how it affected the way people play. It would certainly make it a lot more tense.

Moderator
#19 Posted by Amukasa (53 posts) -

I think all MMO's should have a few servers that have experimental game play on them. Honestly the only MMO's I ever liked were UO because of the PVP and the original WOW before they ruined it. In the original WOW it didnt hold your hand a smuch and giant PVP battles would just spring up....But UO had the best PVP ever not because of perma-death but because when you were killed you could be looted which added way more challenge to the game.

#20 Posted by Rattle618 (1456 posts) -

I´d love a permadeath mmo done right.

#21 Posted by clstirens (847 posts) -

@DarkShaper said:

People seem to be responding to this like they would just drop permadeath into WOW. If the game was built around it it could be great.

This.

People are also responding like they didn't read the post even so much as half way through.

#22 Posted by Amukasa (53 posts) -

Damn now you have me remebering how fun UO was.....

#23 Posted by StaticFalconar (4850 posts) -
@LordXavierBritish said:

@yoshimitz707 said:

Permadeath is a stupid idea. I already hate replaying parts of games when I die and have to start from the last time I saved. Why would I want to keep doing the same thing over and over?

Because your accomplishments actually matter.


They don't, even if permadeath is there. Its still a video game and unless you are trading your stuff for real money in the real world, it ultimately doesn't matter. 
#24 Posted by Mikemcn (7018 posts) -

Permadeath works if the game is almost completely sandbox, a game like that is ruined as soon as you have to repeat the same content.

#25 Posted by DillonWerner (1520 posts) -

If the game was built around it, then it could be fun.

#26 Posted by NoelVeiga (1115 posts) -

I would play an MMO with Permadeath. It'd just have to be a game that looks nothing like the MMOs you're used to playing. Like others said, nothing you do in the game could ever yield a permanent progression or, at least, not a linear one. It'd have to be based on an arbitrary set of bonuses kind of like roguelikes give you random loot that is not necessarily better or worse than what you got on other session, but rather designed to enhance replayability.

At the same time MMOs, unlike roguelikes, are nonlinear, so you can't level up your random gear to match the environment, you have to come up with a way to make combat sustainable and interesting without restricting sections of the world based on player levels, so that when you die you're not cut off from all your fellow guild members and friends with your fresh level 1 character.

That's a lot of restrictions to create an evergreen experience. You can't control progression, you can't section off your playerbase... that's shaping up to be a pretty different design, right? Maybe you'd have to randomly assign a player to a role based on their starting gear and they could work to optimize that. Think Magic the Gathering and creating a deck by swapping cards rather than levelling up a linear skillset. Losing gets you a new starter, but you're still running a full set of cards, so you can play across the board effectively.

The other thing you may want to add, and this is a really serious choice that would have tons of ramifications, is no fast travel of any kind. If a player wants to cross your huge landmass, they're going to have to walk across it. This would prevent players from flocking to the best grind areas or overpopulating sections. Normally you'd section them off by levels, but with no levels you need other ways to assign people to regions. Questing will do that for you if you handle it well, but making travelling *hard* is the best way to ensure that people stick to wherever they are instead of moving in droves and crashing your servers or making huge ghost towns.

Also, permadeath or not, you may want to restrict some skills or objects from being wiped. Maybe you play a family and you "inherit" a few things like houses and some items. This will let you put in some grindy bits and it may also be a good thing if you're going free-to-play. Permadeath may rise the stakes and heighten tension, but you surely don't want to lose an item that cost real money or took forever to get in-game.

Phew, that's just scratching the surface. It's an intriguing idea, but it's a ton to build from the ground up at the design level, let alone balance, potential exploits and other practical issues. I can't say I see anybody trying it large scale any time soon, but I may give it a look if anybody ever does...

#27 Posted by Breadfan (6590 posts) -

Totally.

#28 Posted by Rusputin (74 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish: By all means I'm not totally against it, but everybody in this thread has valid points on potential issues. I think the problems with the realities of implementing the idea are the biggest reason why at least some people in here wouldn't play in perma-death mode.

@datarez said:

Sorry it's hard for me to articulate but I'm trying to say that a perma-death mmo would have to be designed so differently it's hard to imagine what it would be like in comparison to anything we have. I think I'd have more fun with a 1-10 person perma-death game that I could adventure in that was more like Skyrim. I don't need massive if the pay off isn't there. It'd be more like a D&D crew rolling through a world instead of just a bunch of randoms.

P much this, too.

#29 Posted by el_tajij (718 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish: I think the lag/disconnect problem is the biggest thing. It would be so easy for a malicious third party to spread rumours about a game's server instability and that alone would put a lot of players off. 'I'm not playing 100+ hours for lag to ruin my character'. It's enough to warrant it not being profitable in the mainstream, I'd imagine.

I agree with you though, it'd be super interesting to play a mainstream MMO that had the balls to do something like this. MMO's need more weight to failures.

#30 Posted by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@DarkDude said:

Disconnections, Lag Spikes, stuff like that makes me say no.

Games with a high death penalty can be awesome (RuneScape for example, although it has been toned down a lot recently but when you die you lose all but 3 items you have on you) works great, especially in a PvP environment (where you lose everything but one item).

I have fond memories of the days of the old Runescape, where PvP was on everywhere and you lost everything you had whenever you died. It was so much fun.

#31 Posted by Sayishere (1840 posts) -

Not for a MMO, HELL NO. I mean MMOI is about progression as a character, spending a hell of alot of time in the process.!

#32 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

What would be better than perma-death would be hiding the stats and numbers. Every number hidden but replaced with words that would represent the quality. Like for a sword, would be Sharp, dull, well balanced. Body stats could be Strong, Weak, Fast, etc. I think that would be a lot better because you wouldn't have to worry about those min-maxers working the numbers game to get the best stuff. The same goes for hiding UI elements like no maps, journals or quest markers. Maybe have an ingame version of those, but not a part of the UI. That way people don't spent time looking for ! and ? and more time looking at the world. Only area chats and maybe /tell and /group. No colored enemies too. No indication to difficulty other than maybe a skill or what the enemy is wearing.

Mixing those elements with less penalties would be my idea way of a really good MMORPG. I'd rather have those than perma-death. Build an alternate reality people want to live in but still make it fun and manageable.

#33 Posted by project343 (2838 posts) -

MMORPGs, at least with how I play them, beckon a heavy investment in my character as both a representation of myself and my accomplishments within that world. To see my character die permanently would make me unsubscribe to the game, and never play it again.

#34 Posted by Subach (41 posts) -

I'd go for permadeath in a game that revolves entirely around factional conflicts and such. I'm imagining something like an elite unit of skilled, powerful player characters that have been winning battle after battle for their side, who end up being slaughtered to the last man in a devious trap, perhaps turning the entire course of the war in an instant.

It's gotta be perfectly balanced though, it can't take too long to become competent, but it has to take a decent investment to become truly powerful, lower-level characters need to be enough of a threat, at least with clever tactics and superior numbers, that even the big dogs have to earn their survival.

#35 Posted by Jimbo (9983 posts) -

I'm playing one right now.

#36 Posted by opp (39 posts) -

I think that in order to make that work, you would have to remove the leveling system, or completely redesign it.

It could give a great incentive to play in a guild though, if you had some kind of collective storing space (guildbank). That way, people who play in groups wouldn't get hit so hard when they die, because their new character could quickly get viable again, thanks to some items from the guildbank.

#37 Posted by Deleth (248 posts) -

@LordXavierBritish said:

So I was reading into MMOs that used to feature permanent death, and a few that still do, and I became completely enamored with the concept. Specifically, I was reading up on how Jedi used to function in Star Wars Galaxy and was amazed with how cool it sounded, how it actually gave the Jedi character weight in the world and allowed the devs to make them extremely powerful simply because one death would end them forever. It sounded incredible, and then there was the idea that using the force in public would mark you for death and then everyone would come after you and GOD DAMN IT SOUNDS SO COOL.

As EVE has proven though, this is actually one of the most engaging parts of an MMO if done correctly. It's so appealing, in fact, that it often stretches outside the bounds of the game's community and draws new players in.

I'm pretty sure said people ended up not playing those characters anymore, since they were all hunted down by other people so they could become Jedi. And pretty soon afterwards they changed the whole system, since it was horrible. I a game with perma death, you couldn't design any kind of boss encounter, you would need to completly pass on raiding, pvp and many other things that are actual fun. It's a very very bad design for an mmo and there's a reason why it isn't used anymore.

As for EVE, EVE hasn't proven a thing. EVE isn't even successfull. EVE is an MMO, but not so much an RPG. It's whole gameplay is different and yet death isn't even as permanent as you try to make it out to be. And the death system in EVE might actually scare far more people away from playing it then drawin in new players. You like it thus it is appealing to you but that doesn't mean it is appealing to many other people.

#38 Edited by Renahzor (1001 posts) -

I think EVE and SWG original jedi implementation have/had enough different going for them from a WOW clone MMO that the death penalties make sense.

EVE specifically is different in that you choose your own risk before undocking. The high death penalty can be completely negated by flying ships and equipment that are easily replaceable and clones without implants. The more in game currency a player has the more he is able to risk without fear of losing it all. This difference allows more combat ability (and flexibility) based on how much a player wishes to risk. Behind it all though, you still have your character as an anchoring force to come back to the game or to recover from a loss. Though a character can lose significant chunks of SP (EVE's real-time gained XP) the only thing you really lose is in game money value for most "deaths", and the majority of the loss is typically a new ship and equipment, which equates to time in game, and in real terms can be pretty significant. Obviously the idea of permanently losing a character would not be real acceptable in that style of game, although the death penalty it does have can be quite a lot worse than most other MMOs.

The Jedi in SWG originally were a different matter entirely. That's more a story of restraint. Giving a limited number of players more power than everyone else with the ability to lose it by someone else killing them is a great thing, but how you dole out that power has to be very carefully done. The same thing doesn't really work on a larger scale, because if everyone had the same power and same restrictions the fear and mystique of that power are gone. It sounds very cool and fun precisely because it breaks the rules of an MMO in a very specific and limited fashion and polices itself. Fear of losing the characters probably stopped many from ever playing, risk was too high vs the reward....

It would be very hard to do a full scale perma-death MMO, because that is not what people want out of that genre. Games like Counterstrike do this pretty well because you will never be completely behind the power curve when that next match starts. The pay models of MMOs do not really allow them to kill a player entirely, because once a person loses their "investment" in the game (their character) it is much easier to stop playing/paying for the game. This means in a competitive PvP sense, the investment would have to be small enough (time and money) to not be a huge burden to re-climb the ladder, and then you run into lack of content for the elite players, and eventually it all comes apart. IMO That type of game needs a different model than the MMO we have today. Players making an impact on their world more than their characters could be a good way to approach it, but you wont see something like that for many years, long after the WoW clones stop being so damn profitable.

#39 Posted by Lazyaza (2212 posts) -

I like playing the things I pay for, so no.

#40 Posted by Demoskinos (15133 posts) -

Yes. The game would have to be designed less around grindy stuff however. I've played more Dungeons of Dredmore this year than skyrim. Roguelikes are great fun because like has been said the things you do matter more.

#41 Posted by Deleth (248 posts) -

The thing is, that you would've to throw out so much of the things that make an MMO fun. The whole character development thing, any kind of raiding, pvp and all the other stuff would need to go. Just use World of Warcraft as an example.

1. Who would join a Battleground or even the Arena if he might end up losing his character. You wouldn't find enough people willing to play PvP.

2. How would you design Dungeons or Raids? You would need to design them in a way that gives people the ability to beat them the very first time. Just think about Firelands and the new Ragnaros. Some of the top guilds needed hundreds of attempts to finally get them done.

3. Think about how often people die on PvP servers during the level phase or even later when outnumbered. Who would play on that kind of server if you could lose anything within seconds without any kind of possibility to do something about it?

4. The leveling alone, people wouldn't enter dungeons while leveling for the risk of losing their characters nor would they do stuff that is remotely dangerous. And even then a simple disconnect or lag might end up killing them.

5. What are they supposed to do once they hit max level? There would be no Raiding, no PvP, and hardly anyone in his right mind would actually venture out in the world and risk losing a characerter they invested tens or hundreds of hours in?

Just take a look at Kèks, about 1264 achievments, 13040 points and about 220 days played. How would you react when such an character dies?

#42 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1819 posts) -

@Rattle618 said:

I´d love a permadeath mmo done right.

Yeah, so would I. It all depends on the style of game, really. You can't do perma-death in something like Planetside or other similarly PvP centered MMOs, but I think it would work well in games like EVE were combat isn't the central focus.

#43 Posted by Renahzor (1001 posts) -

@SoldierG654342 said:

"EVE were combat isn't the central focus."

I think you entirely misunderstand EVE. The game is entirely PvP, in virtually every aspect.

#44 Posted by Benny (1955 posts) -

I think a person on a server could become some sort of VIP or whatever and the more enemies they killed the more progress they made towards server-wide rewards or titles or something like that, entire servers could band together to defend the guy / slaughter him and if he died once that would be that.

Getting this kind of VIP status could be some sort of blessing from the gods or whatever that required some sort of work but would be worth it if you could turn it into server buffs.

I'm thinking along the lines of the scarab lord in WOW (person who hits the gong at Ahn Quiraj) But available to anyone who wanted to try and distinguish themselves.

Perhaps the longer they remain a VIP the weaker they get to balance it so eventually they could be assassinated by pea shooters.

I don't think actual permadeath (loss of character) would work but allowing yourself to be in a situation where if you die you lose a lot of work, with a significant risk vs. reward would definitely appeal to some.

#45 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1819 posts) -

@Renahzor said:

@SoldierG654342 said:

"EVE were combat isn't the central focus."

I think you entirely misunderstand EVE. The game is entirely PvP, in virtually every aspect.

You're probably right. I know that EVE is entirely PvP, but I didn't think it was in the traditional sense of aiming to kill another player. I was under the impression that EVE was of a more economic and political nature.

#46 Posted by Branthog (5596 posts) -

The closest I've come, is EVE-Online, for about six or seven years. Of course, they don't really have "permadeath". You just lose your clone, all your implants (which can be worth over a billion isk, no sweat) and your ship and all its fittings (which can be worth billions of more isk). Instead, you have games like SWTOR where the only penalty is waiting 30 seconds to press "respawn me right where I died".

#47 Posted by Ubersmake (754 posts) -

This is tangential, but just related enough that I thought I'd share my thoughts.

I played Star Trek Online for a few months after its release. I'll probably pick it up again after it goes F2P, if a few of my friends do the same. In that game, your identity doesn't just consist of yourself, but your crew, your ship, and all the unlucky red shirts onboard.

I think that permadeath for non-player characters is very doable. Your ship officers do level up, but not nearly to the same level of importance as your own character's skill progression. And I think it'd be cool and sobering to have a long list of casualties associated with a player's "career." Even if the names of expendable red shirts are randomly generated, that list of deaths would be a permanent fixture on a character's career, and a part of his or her story.

#48 Posted by Renahzor (1001 posts) -

@SoldierG654342: To be brief, the whole of eve politics and economy revolves around exploding spaceships. Player owned space creates materials for making advanced spaceships and equipment, that players then build (sometimes required to be built in player owned space as well), run missions to buy, and use in combat making them explode. Politics dictate more PVP as well, fighting over different areas of space for whatever reason including not only the destruction of infrastructure and ships but also the taking of valuable resources. The economy lives and dies by the destruction of assets. This trickles down into every aspect of EVE online, from market PvP, scamming and political subterfuge to small frigate duels and enormous fleet battles, it all only has value because spaceships can and do explode.

#49 Posted by jorbear (2517 posts) -

If it was fun and actually made me want to play it even after a harsh death, then sure.

#50 Posted by ch3burashka (5242 posts) -

Vidja gams are for escapism, not stressing out about losing all your progress and money in one fell swoop.