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#51 Posted by Zirilius (652 posts) -

@leebmx said:

They still need somewhere to sell boxed games though. These chains would vanish without used. I still don't think they are in the business of kicking their partners right in the balls.

Gamestop would be fine just not their profit margins. Publishers could give two shits about what happens to used game companies. The only reason they still do business with Gamestop is the shear amount of preorders it provides to the publishers. Gamestop would still exist without used games but they also wouldn't be a Fortune 500 company without them either.

#52 Edited by ll_Exile_ll (1744 posts) -

@animasta said:

@metal_mills said:

@thebatmobile said:

craaaazy if it is and gives the PS4 a huge advantage. Especially in countries outside America where they might not be able to have always-on internet or new games are too expensive to always buy.

You're kidding right?

EDIT: If it's unclear, I'm referring to the close-mindedness of americans.

I still don't get what you mean. And I'm not American, I'm Australian. There are plenty of countries that have shoddy internet, data caps, or it's just plain expensive. Being able to steam HD content everyday and download huge games isn't something many places can do as easily as the US.

honestly, not really? Pretty much the entirety of Europe has way better speeds/caps than Americans do.

Not according to this:

http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

Now, I realize these results may not be the most accurate because speedtest.org is dependent on voluntary tests, but it's data nontheless.

Anyway, out of 180 countries, the US is ranked 33 on this list, and is above such countries as France, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Monaco, New Zealand, and Australia. I grant you that America is a bit behind curve from an overall level, but that's a lot to do with the huge rural areas in parts of the country. In the highly populated areas (mostly on the coasts), the internet speeds are quite comparable to the majority of Europe.

Calling Americans that don't see internet speeds as a problem "close minded" as @thebatmobile did is off base. I'm from Massachusetts and internet speed has never been an issue, and quite honestly the problems states like Wyoming and Montana have regarding internet speed are about as relevant to me as someone from the UK worrying about internet speeds in Italy.

#53 Posted by Animasta (14699 posts) -

@animasta said:

@metal_mills said:

@thebatmobile said:

craaaazy if it is and gives the PS4 a huge advantage. Especially in countries outside America where they might not be able to have always-on internet or new games are too expensive to always buy.

You're kidding right?

EDIT: If it's unclear, I'm referring to the close-mindedness of americans.

I still don't get what you mean. And I'm not American, I'm Australian. There are plenty of countries that have shoddy internet, data caps, or it's just plain expensive. Being able to steam HD content everyday and download huge games isn't something many places can do as easily as the US.

honestly, not really? Pretty much the entirety of Europe has way better speeds/caps than Americans do.

Lol, only Europe and America are real.

they are the biggest markets for video games...

#54 Posted by Cold_Wolven (2227 posts) -

Buy games on the PS4 than can be traded as oppose to buy the same games on the next Xbox that can't be traded, how is this advantageous to Microsoft? As I live in Australia I don't trust my internet especially when my 360 or PS3 occasionally disconnect so if I'm playing a game on the next Xbox and it disconnects from the internet would I get booted out of my game and lose progress?

#55 Posted by SlashDance (1818 posts) -

So I can't even bring games to a friend's house and play on their console ? Seriously, the more "social" these consoles get, the harder it is to actually play with friends in the same room.

Talk about irony.

#56 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

@slashdance: If it's account tied just sign into your account. I have no problems with this at all. Been standard on PC like this for the past decade, and shit Diablo III was the best selling PC game last year.

Who seriously gives a fuck about used games and online only? It's how the industry is going and sales say it doesn't bother the majority of people buying games.

#57 Edited by AlexW00d (6283 posts) -

@ll_exile_ll said:

@animasta said:

honestly, not really? Pretty much the entirety of Europe has way better speeds/caps than Americans do.

Not according to this:

http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

Now, I realize these results may not be the most accurate because speedtest.org is dependent on voluntary tests, but it's data nontheless.

Anyway, out of 180 countries, the US is ranked 33 on this list, and is above such countries as France, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Monaco, New Zealand, and Australia. I grant you that America is a bit behind curve from an overall level, but that's a lot to do with the huge rural areas in parts of the country. In the highly populated areas (mostly on the coasts), the internet speeds are quite comparable to the majority of Europe.

Calling Americans that don't see internet speeds as a problem "close minded" as @thebatmobile did is off base. I'm from Massachusetts and internet speed has never been an issue, and quite honestly the problems states like Wyoming and Montana have regarding internet speed are about as relevant to me as someone from the UK worrying about internet speeds in Italy.

Man my upload speed is faster than all but 32 countries on that list; that's depressing. Also that site basically proves what animasta said, even Ukraine has better average download speeds.

#58 Posted by Daveyo520 (6791 posts) -

So I can't even bring games to a friend's house and play on their console ? Seriously, the more "social" these consoles get, the harder it is to actually play with friends in the same room.

Talk about irony.

Not many people actually bring games over places and play with people in real life as much as they used to. Online is what they have and I do not think they even think about local MP anymore.

#59 Posted by Pr1mus (3936 posts) -

Of course nothing as been confirmed but everything i read about Microsoft sounds like them adopting the same attitude Sony had when they launched the PS3. Look where that got them. Now when you consider that Microsoft is no where near where Sony was with the PS2 and it's not hard to imagine them being shown the way out by consumers if all the worst things we are hearing turned out to be true.

In regards to used games, i can't see them blocking them this way if Sony doesn't do it themselves.

Online
#60 Posted by YetiAntics (1490 posts) -

I can see where the privileged wouldn't find this an issue? But, there are many people who will find this a complete turn off and will probably not buy the new Xbox if this is true. So, the Xbox audience will be even more exclusive. Always on Internet, able to buy any game they want at full price, pay a $60 fee or more a year to use basic services, have devices at an arm's length to have a substitute internet hotspot for their console? Hell if you can afford all that, then no. THIS will not be an issue.

#61 Posted by LiquidPrince (15969 posts) -

You know, I wouldn't mind this happening. If only because it would kill Microsoft and take them out of the console race. Having 3 consoles this generation was a bit of a hassle. 4 if you count my Wii U.

#62 Posted by chrissedoff (2116 posts) -

@slashdance: If the games you buy are tied to your account then you would presumably be able to play them on any system your profile is signed into.

#63 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

I can see where the privileged wouldn't find this an issue? But, there are many people who will find this a complete turn off and will probably not buy the new Xbox if this is true. So, the Xbox audience will be even more exclusive. Always on Internet, able to buy any game they want at full price, pay a $60 fee or more a year to use basic services, have devices at an arm's length to have a substitute internet hotspot for their console? Hell if you can afford all that, then no. THIS will not be an issue.

Always on Internet - I never once had a situation where I couldn't get internet and I move around a lot. Got an unlocked android phone with $30 plan that comes with unlimited data. Use it to tether when I need be at solid fast speeds that can download entire steam games in an hourish.

Able to buy games full price - Dude, in the world of Amazon and other online stores, why would you buy games at launch when you know a week or two later a game will get 10-50% cut in price. There's zero reason to buy games the day they come out unless you really want it.

$60 XBL Fee - People wanna be retarded, knock yourself out. Never got the reason people like XBL.

Hotspot Devices - It's 2013...who doesn't have some sort of smart phone that can tether? I'm not counting kids or people without jobs. Then gaming next-gen shouldn't be a priority for you, there's a shit ton of games on discount all the time on current gen and PC.

#64 Posted by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

I find it preposterous if this is at all true. Granted we don't know anything yet and this has been rumored for months, but if it is it's probably the absolute worst thing that can happen to the console market and gaming in general.

It boggles the mind how people can sell cars, houses, furniture, DVD's, CD's, even a fucking toaster... but selling a game is this fucking unspeakable act. Especially at a time when game sales are at record numbers and then throw in the fact that publishers and developers are making an absolute mint on "DLC" and microtransactions. I fucking hate games now. I hate them. This industry is filled to the brim with cunts that want theirs without giving a single fucking thing back.

#65 Edited by SlashDance (1818 posts) -

@kaosangel: @chrissedoff: @kaosangel: How about just borrowing games from friends ? Is that also something that people don't care about anymore ?

Either way I still bring games when I go spend the evening at a friend's house fairly often, and my console is not always hooked up to the Internet (that is an easier problem to solve), so it all sounds like bad news to me specifically.

#66 Edited by chrissedoff (2116 posts) -

@pr1mus: But these feelings are based on the presumption that all these rumors are true and the assumption that they aren't going to announce anything that mitigates these perceived negative qualities of the upcoming Xbox.

I don't think Microsoft's Xbox division is anywhere near as insulated from the world as Sony was in 2005/2006, so I wouldn't be worried that the new Xbox is going to be as shocking as the Playstation 3 was when it was new. It's completely possible that the PS4 will be more powerful and more consumer/user-friendly than the next Xbox, but I think that's as bad as it will get for Microsoft.

#67 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

@slashdance: Can you borrow iOS games? Can you borrow Steam games? Can you borrow Blizzard games? Can you borrow games that require online passes?

No one is doing it anymore, and from the looks of sales only the minority is bothered by it. It has worked fine for PC games for a decade, and guess what...PC games end up having much longer lifetime for their online games. Show me a console game from 5 years ago that's still played.

Everyone screaming like the industry is doomed with digital only and account locked games.

Apple, Google, Valve all do it this way and it's worked out perfectly. Shit fucking Apple makes more money from their online store than Sony as a company makes in a year.

#68 Edited by ll_Exile_ll (1744 posts) -

@alexw00d said:

@ll_exile_ll said:

@animasta said:

honestly, not really? Pretty much the entirety of Europe has way better speeds/caps than Americans do.

Not according to this:

http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

Now, I realize these results may not be the most accurate because speedtest.org is dependent on voluntary tests, but it's data nontheless.

Anyway, out of 180 countries, the US is ranked 33 on this list, and is above such countries as France, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Monaco, New Zealand, and Australia. I grant you that America is a bit behind curve from an overall level, but that's a lot to do with the huge rural areas in parts of the country. In the highly populated areas (mostly on the coasts), the internet speeds are quite comparable to the majority of Europe.

Calling Americans that don't see internet speeds as a problem "close minded" as @thebatmobile did is off base. I'm from Massachusetts and internet speed has never been an issue, and quite honestly the problems states like Wyoming and Montana have regarding internet speed are about as relevant to me as someone from the UK worrying about internet speeds in Italy.

Man my upload speed is faster than all but 32 countries on that list; that's depressing. Also that site basically proves what animasta said, even Ukraine has better average download speeds.

Except for those European countries I listed that have lower speeds, of which there are more than just the ones I mentioned.

Also, like I said, The US is big, nearly as big as all of Europe. Just as counties like Poland, Italy, Belarus, and other Eastern European countries have relatively slow internet, there are parts of the US that have slow internet as well. However, just as there are countries like Switzerland that have fast internet, there are areas in the US with very high speeds. I've got constant speeds of about 44 down, 32 up without a data cap and I don't even have the highest available speed in my area.

I don't even know why I am putting this much effort into this discussion, I guess I just tend to be annoyed by sweeping generalizations and constantly repeated rhetoric that stops people from actually looking at the facts. Yes, there are huge internet infrastructure problems in large areas of the US, but there are also areas where there are not.

#69 Posted by SlashDance (1818 posts) -

@kaosangel: So something that is completely anti-user becomes fine when enough people start doing it. Okay.

#70 Posted by sarahsdad (1100 posts) -

@slashdance: Can you borrow iOS games? Can you borrow Steam games? Can you borrow Blizzard games? Can you borrow games that require online passes?

No one is doing it anymore, and from the looks of sales only the minority is bothered by it. It has worked fine for PC games for a decade, and guess what...PC games end up having much longer lifetime for their online games. Show me a console game from 5 years ago that's still played.

Everyone screaming like the industry is doomed with digital only and account locked games.

Apple, Google, Valve all do it this way and it's worked out perfectly. Shit fucking Apple makes more money from their online store than Sony as a company makes in a year.

I'm kind of surprised nobody else mentioned it so far, but maybe the thread hasn't baked long enough. Allowing or not allowing used games is half the issue. I only have my own experience to go on, but a big part of the reason I don't care about it for Apple, Steam, Android, etc. is the flexibility of pricing. If the system did "no used games", but also let publishers run sales at the drop of a hat, I think the rage would drop to a smokey cinder.

#71 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

@kaosangel: So something that is completely anti-user becomes fine when enough people start doing it. Okay.

Blame the billion valve made from Steam, and the 100s of billions Apple/Google made from their digital stores. Consumers spoke their mind, they aren't bothered by it.

#72 Posted by Daveyo520 (6791 posts) -

@liquidprince: So what is the 3rd? Do you count PC as a console?

#74 Posted by AlexW00d (6283 posts) -

@ll_exile_ll: Countries like Poland and Belarus and Croatia aren't target markets for videogames though are they? Whereas states other than MA and California are target markets for videogames.

#75 Edited by chrissedoff (2116 posts) -

@sarahsdad: I agree with you completely. That's the thing that scares me about account-locked games and the all-digital future. If the elimination of used game sales somehow paves the road to games that are sold at $60 forever then a lot of people would stop playing games period. However, I don't believe that the availability of used games is the primary factor in depressing video game prices, especially when the biggest retailers of used games offer a measly $5 discount. I think it's simply the gradual decrease in perceived value of media that's been around for a few months or even weeks and the desire to milk products for as much revenue as is possible by matching price and consumers' willingness to pay.

#76 Posted by FFFFFFF (75 posts) -

So I can't even bring games to a friend's house and play on their console ? Seriously, the more "social" these consoles get, the harder it is to actually play with friends in the same room.

Talk about irony.

Social is just a new corporate buzzword. It really means, "show us everything about yourself so that we can more effectively advertise at you." It doesn't actually mean having friends or interacting with people.

#77 Posted by Lukeweizer (2692 posts) -
  
#78 Edited by YetiAntics (1490 posts) -

@yetiantics said:

I can see where the privileged wouldn't find this an issue? But, there are many people who will find this a complete turn off and will probably not buy the new Xbox if this is true. So, the Xbox audience will be even more exclusive. Always on Internet, able to buy any game they want at full price, pay a $60 fee or more a year to use basic services, have devices at an arm's length to have a substitute internet hotspot for their console? Hell if you can afford all that, then no. THIS will not be an issue.

Always on Internet - I never once had a situation where I couldn't get internet and I move around a lot. Got an unlocked android phone with $30 plan that comes with unlimited data. Use it to tether when I need be at solid fast speeds that can download entire steam games in an hourish.

Able to buy games full price - Dude, in the world of Amazon and other online stores, why would you buy games at launch when you know a week or two later a game will get 10-50% cut in price. There's zero reason to buy games the day they come out unless you really want it.

Hotspot Devices - It's 2013...who doesn't have some sort of smart phone that can tether? I'm not counting kids or people without jobs. Then gaming next-gen shouldn't be a priority for you, there's a shit ton of games on discount all the time on current gen and PC.

Don't assume everyone has these devices just because its 2013. I'm just saying.

Never had a situation with internet? Good for you.
Buying games at low prices? I'd rather try it first. Have a buddy lend it to me for a couple of days. In other words, pay nothing... owe him a $5 pizza


#79 Edited by Andorski (5331 posts) -

People saying that making this move would give the PS4 the console race win are completely underestimating Microsoft's hold on it's current userbase and overestimating Sony's ability to make smart marketing decisions.

If they made it so that once a physical copy of a game is tied to your account you could download it on any other Xbox, I would consider it a good trade-off. Doubt MS would be that consumer friendly though.

#80 Posted by Daveyo520 (6791 posts) -
#81 Posted by ConfusedOwl (944 posts) -

I live in Canada, we have bad internet and low caps so if it turns out to be true for the xbox (and even the Ps4 because it's still not 100%) I will not be buying a new console next gen.

#82 Posted by hughesman (312 posts) -

Sounds to me like he was just repeating the same rumors everyone else heard. Microsoft wouldn't need to tell everyone working on Durango games all of these details anyway.

#83 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

All my games are new, would rather the money go to the publishers\developers than Gamestop Inc ripping off people and making a huge mark up off each used game. It works fine on PC.

#84 Posted by Guided_By_Tigers (8061 posts) -

This will not happen.

#85 Posted by Nightriff (5096 posts) -

I don't believe it, I don't think they would be stupid enough to do that BUT IF THEY DID, how do they not go from first to worst and completely bomb? I don't care about used games, I still buy them off Amazon but if eventually they force me to only buy new, I'll just move to PC full time and buy new games with sweet deals, how I roll

#86 Posted by DeathByWaffle (637 posts) -

This would absolutely blow my mind if this turns out to be true. I feel like it would absolutely cripple the new Xbox, and Microsoft has to know that. If Microsoft and Sony both did this they could maybe get away with it, but if only Microsoft is imposing these restrictions, I would think most people would move to the PS4 (I know I would).

#87 Posted by rentacop (107 posts) -

Tired of seeing used games taking the blame for a failing business model. If people start waiting until games get bargain binned wouldn't it defeat the purpose of killing the used market anyways? Buy for $60 with the option of selling/trading in for 30-40 would turn into me very rarely spending more than $30.

The second part about the watermarked discs seems way too stupid to be true. I would 100% not buy the new Xbox if this was the case.

#88 Edited by ddensel (384 posts) -

Dude said the next Xbox will supposedly not play used games, so it sounds like he's just going off the unconfirmed rumors that have been going on for a while. I still don't think this is true of the next Xbox.

I still like having the option of buying used games for cheap, or old titles that aren't available anymore. If this is true, then I'm jumping ship to Sony.

#89 Edited by Bob_Loblaw (110 posts) -

In theory I can understand the argument for always on and privacy prevention tying games to a profile and I know the PC crowd has learned to accept because of the other benefits in pricing etc that can be found. I think that is mainly because it's already largely progressed to a digital ecosystem. How many PC gamers are walking in to buy boxed copies?

I just know that the first time my internet died or a game failed to recognise my authorisation and I had a brand new purchased copy of a game sitting there unplayable I would forget all those arguments and be losing my shit.

And yes I'd calm down and get over it, but for that moment something that used to be the best thing about console gaming i.e. putting a brand new game in my console has been turned into something incredibly frustrating.

Also has someone who has been swapping games with friends since my I loaned out my master system copy of Shinobi in exchange for Bonanza Bros I think I would miss that too.

#90 Posted by John1912 (1892 posts) -

There is no way in hell MS will ban used games. They might have options in place to do so in case the market somehow became tolerant of the idea, but that is not going to happen then gen. There would be a HUGE uproar, MS would just patch the system to allow used games, end of story.

#91 Posted by JayEH (534 posts) -

It actually would give Microsoft the advantage with publishers since they know they will get paid

#92 Posted by YetiAntics (1490 posts) -

@daveyo520: Ever play a bad demo, but then try the full game and realize its way better? Same in vice versa, it was a good demo, but then the full game is a sack of shit (Sonic 06)

#93 Posted by gogosox82 (424 posts) -

@jayeh said:

It actually would give Microsoft the advantage with publishers since they know they will get paid

They already get paid and they get paid a lot of money. The issue is that their not making a profit.

#94 Posted by Enigma777 (6074 posts) -

And Sony will welcome back all those 360 converts with open arms.

#95 Posted by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

You know why this is bullshit? It ruins game rentals AND used games, destroying both Gamestop type stores and Blockbuster type stores. That shit wouldn't fly.

Plus, what happens when they inevitably release a 'new' and 'improved' Xbox 720, forcing you to buy new games?

They would shoot themselves in the foot just to 'please' developers

It seems PS4 was able to do that without tackling the used games argument

#96 Edited by Colourful_Hippie (4370 posts) -

@starfoxa: Always online hasn't been a problem for me ever. Most games I play that require online, I only play because they are online. If I need internet that bad, I just tether my Nexus 4 to whatever device needs internet and done.

When did you ditch the apple fan train for android?

#97 Edited by TopCat88 (177 posts) -

I just can't believe these rumors will come true. I don't believe even Microsoft would be this dumb.

More importantly, developers and publishers WILL care about used sales. My example is CEX in the UK. They're model is based on volume, not markup. They give good trade in prices and sell games back to people for £5-10 more than they pay for the stock. They are 100% based on trade sales and don't stock new games. They're stores are dirty, badly maintained and cheap in all senses of the word. BUT I do the vast majority of my shopping there and there is ALWAYS a HUGE queue for the cash register. Most of these people are students, poorer families or children with pocket money. These people would not buy anywhere near as many games new.

However, it is a limited perspective to say developers and publishers don't care about these people. They are important. A) They might buy an online pass. B) They might buy DLC. C) They may become attached to franchises or series' of games and buy the next one new/digital if their financial situation improves. D) Word of mouth advertising about a good game is important.

Ditching used games would improve sales of new games, but I don't believe by much. It would alienate a large portion of the console market in the process and Microsoft are not that arrogant. They're pretty dumb, but not that dumb...I hope...:P

#98 Posted by Nictel (2422 posts) -

If there even thinking about it, I bet they do, they should take a look at ubisoft and realise any strict always on drm no used game policy is a very bad idea.

#99 Edited by Unilad (564 posts) -

@jams said:

here we fucking go again

I really hate all of the bullshit speculation that crops up prior to a console announcement.

Touche. It'll be what it'll be. jeeezzzzzuuuuussssss

#100 Posted by tourgen (4515 posts) -

hubris and arrogance. if it's true.