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Posted by Jeff (3336 posts) -

I've been chewing on this Digital Spy story for a bit now. Last week, they spoke with Daniel Jones, the managing director at Binary Tweed, an independent game developer that released Clover , a watercolor-styled platforming game that was released as a Community Game on the Xbox 360 via the XNA Creators program. In the story, Jones comes across as disappointed with the sales for Clover. Here's what he had to say:

"It's a shame to say that Clover has not sold as many copies as we'd hoped for. As it stands, through Community Games alone, we definitely won't recoup costs."

I gave the trial for Clover a shot, and as it has a reference to UK: Resistance in it, I'm just going to go ahead and say that it's probably pretty cool. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not trying to say anything about the quality of this specific product. But at what point did people start expecting that the Xbox Community Games thing was going to be a means to create a profitable business? Wasn't this whole thing always aimed at bedroom developer type people who are kind of just creating things in their spare time, perhaps with hopes of learning something along the way?

The XNA Creators Club site certainly doesn't go out of its way to claim that it's there so people can go about the business of doing business. It's all about dreams and wishes and free development tools:

If you’ve ever dreamed of making your own video games and sharing them with the world, then the XNA Creators Club and community games are for you. It’s game development for everybody – games created by the community, reviewed by the community, and played by everyone.

Obviously, yes, they let you set a price for your final product once you get it posted up in the difficult-to-navigate Community Games section on Xbox Live. So there's certainly the potential for getting some money coming in. But if anyone thought this was going to be some kind of weird road-to-the-riches, I think they've been led astray.

So it's hard for me to feel too sorry for people who are discovering that this whole process is not economically viable. I don't really think this whole thing was ever supposed to be a get rich quick scheme. Heck, they won't even send you a check until your cut of your game's sales hits $150. I have to imagine that almost all of the developers out there putting these games out aren't hitting that mark. Does any of this surprise you? Do you think that this should be a path to success for independent developers?

Speaking of being "not economically viable," I leave you with this important and obviously relevant video:
 
  
Staff
#1 Posted by Jeff (3336 posts) -

I've been chewing on this Digital Spy story for a bit now. Last week, they spoke with Daniel Jones, the managing director at Binary Tweed, an independent game developer that released Clover , a watercolor-styled platforming game that was released as a Community Game on the Xbox 360 via the XNA Creators program. In the story, Jones comes across as disappointed with the sales for Clover. Here's what he had to say:

"It's a shame to say that Clover has not sold as many copies as we'd hoped for. As it stands, through Community Games alone, we definitely won't recoup costs."

I gave the trial for Clover a shot, and as it has a reference to UK: Resistance in it, I'm just going to go ahead and say that it's probably pretty cool. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not trying to say anything about the quality of this specific product. But at what point did people start expecting that the Xbox Community Games thing was going to be a means to create a profitable business? Wasn't this whole thing always aimed at bedroom developer type people who are kind of just creating things in their spare time, perhaps with hopes of learning something along the way?

The XNA Creators Club site certainly doesn't go out of its way to claim that it's there so people can go about the business of doing business. It's all about dreams and wishes and free development tools:

If you’ve ever dreamed of making your own video games and sharing them with the world, then the XNA Creators Club and community games are for you. It’s game development for everybody – games created by the community, reviewed by the community, and played by everyone.

Obviously, yes, they let you set a price for your final product once you get it posted up in the difficult-to-navigate Community Games section on Xbox Live. So there's certainly the potential for getting some money coming in. But if anyone thought this was going to be some kind of weird road-to-the-riches, I think they've been led astray.

So it's hard for me to feel too sorry for people who are discovering that this whole process is not economically viable. I don't really think this whole thing was ever supposed to be a get rich quick scheme. Heck, they won't even send you a check until your cut of your game's sales hits $150. I have to imagine that almost all of the developers out there putting these games out aren't hitting that mark. Does any of this surprise you? Do you think that this should be a path to success for independent developers?

Speaking of being "not economically viable," I leave you with this important and obviously relevant video:
 
  
Staff
#2 Edited by LiquidPrince (15606 posts) -

Yes, relevant indeed.

#3 Posted by Luke (1609 posts) -

One of my boys is currently making an XNA game. 

He's shown me a couple of videos of him playing it and I'm probably gunna help him test it here soon. 

Maybe I should link him to this Article? 

#4 Posted by Ouroboros (344 posts) -

I've bought a whole heap of Community games, albeit only the good ones (around 15 or so) and I do love them dearly.  My only gripe is that they can only be played while online.  I think the major issues are 1) the development time and cost and 2) the actual cut Microsoft syphons from the sale.  I think if people are actually serious about developing games it can be used to springboard them to something bigger but I think the think big or go home mentality should be common sense and they should develop for something more significant then XNA if they dont want to be dissapointed.  The problem is that there is a lot of crap out there, not just XNA games that true talent really does get lost in the mess.

#5 Posted by StarFoxA (5123 posts) -

I've only bought one Community Game, and that was because I had a left over 200 points (I bought Johnny Platform's Biscuit Romp because I heard it was decent).

#6 Posted by Crixaliz (782 posts) -

What movie is that from?

#7 Edited by Spoonman (74 posts) -

 With the kind of success people are having on the iphone it's kind of hard for people to not try and translate that into success on other platforms.  XNA seems to be more of giving people a taste of game development rather than actually making them into any measure of a developer.  Granted there are some people that are making some really interesting things on XNA, but until microsoft sees fit to give community games a real chance to shine up next to the arcade games i can't imagine many games really making money.

#8 Posted by NickM (1067 posts) -

Didn't Hamst3r earn a shitload of cash by making a Community Game?

#9 Posted by Funger (34 posts) -

The problem with Community games is the very nature of the games themselves.  All that I want to experience from a community game I can get from a short demo.

#10 Posted by Keyser_Soze (1186 posts) -
@Crixaliz: Falling Down. I think it's supposed to signify that if GiantBomb doesn't ever work out, Jeff is gonna go on a murder spree and make a Giant-Bomb statement.
#11 Posted by Sweep (8541 posts) -

The first dude to just say "Fuck It" and release his game free is going to be sorted - Because everyone will download it. This will get him noticed, and hopefully hired into a real dev team. That's when he gets his money back. Hoping to make a profit on the cost of the game alone is dumb.

Although to be fair, this is all Microsoft being an idiot. All community games should be free to the public and microsoft should just pay the dudes what make the games, straight up.

Moderator
#12 Posted by Venatio (4485 posts) -

Falling Down is an awesome movie

#13 Posted by STEVEOO6 (23 posts) -

Falling Down (with Michael Douglas)

#14 Posted by Meltbrain (2966 posts) -
@Crixaliz said:
" What movie is that from? "
Falling Down.
#15 Posted by JJOR64 (18783 posts) -

$20 says they would sell more if they had achievements.

#16 Posted by ZmillA (2232 posts) -

falling down is a great movie

#17 Posted by sneaky77 (35 posts) -

People that thought they were going to be able to make a living just by community games had the wrong idea from the beginning.

#18 Posted by End_Boss (3220 posts) -
@Sweep said:
" The first dude to just say "Fuck It" and release his game free is going to be sorted - Because everyone will download it. This will get him noticed, and hopefully hired into a real dev team. That's when he gets his money back. Hoping to make a profit on the cost of the game alone is dumb.Although to be fair, this is all Microsoft being an idiot. All community games should be free to the public and microsoft should just pay the dudes what make the games, straight up. "
Dude, that is just not a reasonable thing to do, as a business. Yeah, Microsoft has the resources to do it without blinking an eyelash but... Where are the pros, from their point of view?
#19 Edited by Azteck (7447 posts) -

XNA always seemed like more of a home-developer kind of thing, you won't make real cash unless it's in a box on top of a shelf.

However, I'm sure you could make a few bucks off a good game which isn't priced super high priced.

#20 Posted by evaNERV (14 posts) -
I personally think the issue with the Independent Games on X360 is the market of the X360. I have gone in there and bought two games... and snooped around and tried others. My feelings are when I'm firing up a $300 machine, on my LCD, with internet connection... I'll go play one of my overpriced $60 online games with my friends or a much more robust game. I have limited time to to play my consoles and especially the more involved console games (Fallout, Fable 2, Burnout).

If I want a low production value game, I'll grab my PSP, DS, or iTouch to do that where I can play it anywhere. Those systems I can pop out and play those types of games when I have 10-20 minutes of downtime... cooking, grilling, waiting in line, whatever.

For me, there is no need for smaller games on the X360. I have more than enough devices to play them on and in a more convenient matter.
#21 Posted by yyZiggurat (990 posts) -

I love Falling Down.

#22 Posted by Thatoneguy64 (29 posts) -

Read the title expecting Falling Down, and was not disappointed!

One of my favorite movies of all time.

#23 Edited by stinky (1545 posts) -

thats why people are going over to the iphone.


so easy and cheap to develop for. 2 people can turn out a quality title of the phone in a relatively short time.
amazingly short compared to an HD console.


#24 Posted by Wolverine (4269 posts) -

People can't actually make much money off XNA, there best bet is getting hired buy a developer.

#25 Posted by Diamond (8634 posts) -

Why XNA sales are low :

  • XNA don't have the guaranteed quality standards most other games have (all others, except a indie PC game or iPhone game you might buy), and users know it
  • XNA isn't as visible on Xbox Live as it could be
  • XNA is filled with a huge number of absolutely shitty worthless games (multiple massage games, really?)
  • XNA games have less features (no achievements for example)
  • XNA games often aren't as good as other games people can buy (there are a few stand out good playing ones, but a lot of these don't deserve massive sales)

I've bought 3 or 4 XNA games that I liked, and I'm a bit surprised the overall sales are as low as they have been, but not incredibly surprised...
#26 Edited by Hamst3r (4342 posts) -

It would be really helpful if gaming sites would bother to cover the Community Games. How are developers supposed to get their game noticed when they're ignored by the gaming media? There are tons of news sites that post up press releases for nearly everything, yet they have nothing when it comes to the Community Games. It doesn't matter how good your Community Game is, gaming sites aren't going to pay any attention to it (except IGN and GameTrailers, they're nice). They won't post about it's release, they won't post it's trailer and they wont review it because it immediately goes in the trash when they notice that it's a Community Game. No one is going to know your game is out there. :P

That said though, ezmuze has done very well even with the press ignoring it. It has recouped all costs and then some. 45K so far. :)

@NickM said:
" Didn't Hamst3r earn a shitload of cash by making a Community Game? "
Not quite a shitload, but enough to live on while making the next game.
#27 Posted by Not_Rage (470 posts) -

I think Microsoft makes the XNA section on Xbox Live hard to find on purpose due to the low quality of most games. They don't want to confuse the mainstream crowd by puting theses games out in the open and getting the response "wtf is this crap?". 

#28 Posted by Shax (12 posts) -

I just got the new edition of Falling Down on dvd, such a good movie.

#29 Posted by Designer0 (56 posts) -

that movie is so rad!

#30 Posted by dark_maggot (75 posts) -

Now I want to know what happenes next on that movie...thanks GB.

#31 Posted by 88Fingers (279 posts) -

I totally agree with others here...
These games need achievement points. Even if they only had 20-50 per game, I would definitely purchase more.
Give us something!  Without achievement points they feel disconnected from what Xbox Live is all about.
If I have 400 points left... I'm more likely to buy a crappy Live game just because of the possibility of adding another 200 points to my gamer score...
Even though I know there are much better community games I could be playing.
I have only purchased about 3 games.... and they were mostly due to word of mouth & through podcasts.
Promoting them better would help too... as others have said...as of now ...it's just kinda' hidden... like it doesn't matter.
I feel bad about not purchasing more community games... but come on Microsoft! Don't give up on it... do something about it!!
It's a very cool feature just hidden away in the back... I don't think renaming it to Indie-Games is going to help much.

#32 Posted by Andborn (169 posts) -

That movie fucking rocks, made me truly appreciate Michael Douglas. This and King of California.

#33 Posted by MmmSkyscraper (310 posts) -

I bought Snake360 by Aaron Teplitsky, great stuff and still being updated. I hope he got a fair return despite the low profile of XNA games.

#34 Posted by Aquinas (28 posts) -
@Not_Rage said:
" I think Microsoft makes the XNA section on Xbox Live hard to find on purpose due to the low quality of most games. They don't want to confuse the mainstream crowd by puting theses games out in the open and getting the response "wtf is this crap?".  "
Might be.  I purchased three of them.  They were all complete garbage.
#35 Posted by Sparky_Buzzsaw (5797 posts) -

Any reference to Falling Down is pimptastic.

Moderator
#36 Edited by MrBrian (68 posts) -
#37 Posted by FCKSNAP (2299 posts) -
@End_Boss said:
" @Sweep said:
" The first dude to just say "Fuck It" and release his game free is going to be sorted - Because everyone will download it. This will get him noticed, and hopefully hired into a real dev team. That's when he gets his money back. Hoping to make a profit on the cost of the game alone is dumb.Although to be fair, this is all Microsoft being an idiot. All community games should be free to the public and microsoft should just pay the dudes what make the games, straight up. "
Dude, that is just not a reasonable thing to do, as a business. Yeah, Microsoft has the resources to do it without blinking an eyelash but... Where are the pros, from their point of view? "
Fathers of the gaming community. Why should they only shell out money for only the big publishers and not the little guys?
#38 Posted by Razz17 (21 posts) -

I'd love to play a game where the whole concept is tearing through a city just constantly destroying shit to upgrade your current weapon into a better piece of asskickery. Similar to the one red paperclip....but more fatal.

#39 Posted by Klesk (18 posts) -

if youve played any community games youll know that none of them are worth the money they want for them. If they were like 200 points or less, people would buy them. they are basically cheap flash games. I would never pay anything for them. Clover was neat tho, until the trial ran out and I had to  pay 400 points for it. screw that.

#40 Posted by The_A_Drain (3910 posts) -

Yes and no, the problem with the wole operation is that it seems aimed at the bedroom developer, but it costs rather a lot to put out any substantial content that rivals Microsofts XBLA titles, and the community games are incredibly badly advertised, it almost seems like MS layed down the promise of money (they actually made a big deal about giving developers back their cash and more) in the run up to releasing it, and now just don't care.

Also, even for the bedroom developer, you can pay £50/year for the ability to release games over the Community Games service, and probably never make that 50 back unless your content is high enough quality to spread via word of mouth and get enough purchases (Say 400 points, even if you get the maximum 70% back from each sale from MS, you need to sell 22 copies of the game, which might not sound like a lot, but with so many other products in there, and all of them of incredibly varying quality, the average consumer doesnt even want to look at them)

For your average bedroom developer, Torque is a much better solution for learning and creating bedroom games, it also helps that it's used for a lot of commercially released games as well so the experience is more beneficial than XNA. And it only costs $100 for a lifetime membership, or $200 for the source code to be included. For that you are free to play around with it forever, and so long as you put a garagegames logo on your game, you are free to release your games however and whenever you want, and charge whatever you want for them. Provided you dont make too much money, you wont have to upgrade to a commercial developer license until you make silly monies from your games.

#41 Posted by Tylea002 (2291 posts) -
@Snapstacle said:
" @End_Boss said:
" @Sweep said:
" The first dude to just say "Fuck It" and release his game free is going to be sorted - Because everyone will download it. This will get him noticed, and hopefully hired into a real dev team. That's when he gets his money back. Hoping to make a profit on the cost of the game alone is dumb.Although to be fair, this is all Microsoft being an idiot. All community games should be free to the public and microsoft should just pay the dudes what make the games, straight up. "
Dude, that is just not a reasonable thing to do, as a business. Yeah, Microsoft has the resources to do it without blinking an eyelash but... Where are the pros, from their point of view? "
Fathers of the gaming community. Why should they only shell out money for only the big publishers and not the little guys? "
Thats exactly WHY it makes sense. It gets microsoft support amongst guys that like nice indie games, It gets them support in that they are getting free games, they could make it like a gold member only service if they HAD to, but it would gain all parties involved some cred. Devs would get noticed, Microsoft would please some people and if they support the developers there will be more and more community games, and if they were all for free, that would be a big plus for xbox live over the PS3, leading to business revenue that way.

Think about it outside of the box rather than simply how many copies sold. Everything has a knock on effect, it would be valuable for this strategy to be the one they take.
#42 Edited by The_A_Drain (3910 posts) -
@Tylea002 said:
"@Snapstacle said:
" @End_Boss said:
" @Sweep said:
" The first dude to just say "Fuck It" and release his game free is going to be sorted - Because everyone will download it. This will get him noticed, and hopefully hired into a real dev team. That's when he gets his money back. Hoping to make a profit on the cost of the game alone is dumb.Although to be fair, this is all Microsoft being an idiot. All community games should be free to the public and microsoft should just pay the dudes what make the games, straight up. "
Dude, that is just not a reasonable thing to do, as a business. Yeah, Microsoft has the resources to do it without blinking an eyelash but... Where are the pros, from their point of view? "
Fathers of the gaming community. Why should they only shell out money for only the big publishers and not the little guys? "
Thats exactly WHY it makes sense. It gets microsoft support amongst guys that like nice indie games, It gets them support in that they are getting free games, they could make it like a gold member only service if they HAD to, but it would gain all parties involved some cred. Devs would get noticed, Microsoft would please some people and if they support the developers there will be more and more community games, and if they were all for free, that would be a big plus for xbox live over the PS3, leading to business revenue that way.Think about it outside of the box rather than simply how many copies sold. Everything has a knock on effect, it would be valuable for this strategy to be the one they take."

This conversation should be stuppered before it gets going too far, you cannot release an XNA community game for free, Microsoft will not allow it, must be 200, 400 or 800 MS points, not other denominations, and not free. Simple as that, MS make money out of it too you know, why would they let you release a game for free?

Also, tons of people release games for free over the net and it doesnt have the miraculous effect of getting you an insta-job.

As for them being free and just 'paying the dues what make them' why the hell would MS do that? that would cost them money.... With the current setup they make 30% of everything, a pretty nice slice if you ask me, why the fuck would they suddenly drop that and start pouring money into it that they will never see returned? That's just stupid.

And I don't know what you meant by 'gold member service' but in order to release a game via XNA Community Games, you already have to pay a yearly subscription fee.
#43 Posted by Tylea002 (2291 posts) -
@The_A_Drain said:
" @Tylea002 said:
"@Snapstacle said:
" @End_Boss said:
" @Sweep said:
" The first dude to just say "Fuck It" and release his game free is going to be sorted - Because everyone will download it. This will get him noticed, and hopefully hired into a real dev team. That's when he gets his money back. Hoping to make a profit on the cost of the game alone is dumb.Although to be fair, this is all Microsoft being an idiot. All community games should be free to the public and microsoft should just pay the dudes what make the games, straight up. "
Dude, that is just not a reasonable thing to do, as a business. Yeah, Microsoft has the resources to do it without blinking an eyelash but... Where are the pros, from their point of view? "
Fathers of the gaming community. Why should they only shell out money for only the big publishers and not the little guys? "
Thats exactly WHY it makes sense. It gets microsoft support amongst guys that like nice indie games, It gets them support in that they are getting free games, they could make it like a gold member only service if they HAD to, but it would gain all parties involved some cred. Devs would get noticed, Microsoft would please some people and if they support the developers there will be more and more community games, and if they were all for free, that would be a big plus for xbox live over the PS3, leading to business revenue that way.Think about it outside of the box rather than simply how many copies sold. Everything has a knock on effect, it would be valuable for this strategy to be the one they take."
This conversation should be stuppered before it gets going too far, you cannot release an XNA community game for free, Microsoft will not allow it, must be 200, 400 or 800 MS points, not other denominations, and not free. Simple as that, MS make money out of it too you know, why would they let you release a game for free?Also, tons of people release games for free over the net and it doesnt have the miraculous effect of getting you an insta-job.As for them being free and just 'paying the dues what make them' why the hell would MS do that? that would cost them money.... With the current setup they make 30% of everything, a pretty nice slice if you ask me, why the fuck would they suddenly drop that and start pouring money into it that they will never see returned? That's just stupid.And I don't know what you meant by 'gold member service' but in order to release a game via XNA Community Games, you already have to pay a yearly subscription fee. "
Did you even read my post? Community games make fuck all on their own. Barely anyone buys them, they should be left for free. This WILL help microsoft as it means that if they support the developers of community games, by say giving them a set fee for costs once the game has been finished. This will mean more will make community games will get made, and if you make them paid for as PART of the gold membership service, you have offered people another reason why Xbox Live Gold is a good option, and why the xbox is better than the PS3. What they loose on the sales of the games themselves, they make up in revenue from OTHER AREAS. Businesses are big, and people will buy the more expensive things (the xbox itself, xbox live gold) to get free things. Overall, it will help the xbox brand, make microsoft appear nice and friendly, and get extra subscribers to xbox live.

Its a valid business model.

Also "gold member service" means having them free to all gold members. Read both my posts properly, its a helpful thing to do before replying.
#44 Posted by The_A_Drain (3910 posts) -
@Tylea002:

How about you write a post that makes sense first? Then you can berate people for not understanding a single word of it.

And no, that's not a valid business model at all. Besides, how do you then distinguish who is worthy of being paid and who is not? That would lead to a lot of argument, and a lot of hurt egos, obviously MS would then not be happy to release every shitty game around onto their system if they are paying for them, and that kinda diminishes the whole 'community' aspect of the service in the first place.

Making up revenue in other areas is all well and good, but we're in a recession, it benefits nobody to take risks like that. But as I said, the main reason this wouldn't work is because MS would then have to regulate the content themselves, and make judgements based on it's worth, which would just lead to court cases, complaints, and it certainly wouldn't increase the gold subscriber base all that much as is kinda the point of this article, people dont give a shit about community games, making them free isn't going to wrench people from their Halo 3 multiplayer.

The whole point of the service is to give smaller developers a way of releasing games onto a popular console on, more or less, their own terms. Reversing the whole service like that benefists nobody, it just causes more work for Microsoft, and arguments inside the community.

The way you are proposing, is actually how proffesional games get developed, the problem here being that not every bedroom programmer and community member can approach microsoft with a well laid out design document, and work schedule, and then keep to that schedule, so MS could never give a quote beforehand. And doing all that work and then having Microsoft decide how much it's worth, that' just not going to work for anyone, as I said it just causes discontent, people are bound to be unhappy with the process, even more unhappy once games start getting rejected (and they will after all, if MS has to pay for them, they dont want to pay for shit games. Whereas the current model, they dont care because even shit games they are making money from)

And it wouldn't solve the profitability problem for developers either, as at most they would see a one off payment from Microsoft and no subsequent payments.

You need to understand it just will not work, and nobody involved in the process would even think about agreeing to such a model.
#45 Posted by cikame (925 posts) -

I've seen this film..... he's some kinda guy who goes insane.... or something.

Anyway, i see XNA as being a learning tool or introductory software for potential game developers of the future, the other option would be to spend hundreds of pounds/dollars on 3D software for your pc, you'd need to buy the expensive high quality pc first too.

#46 Posted by lordofultima (6186 posts) -

I LOVE Falling Down, one of the baddest ass movies on the planet.

#47 Posted by Manatassi (791 posts) -
@The_A_Drain said:
This conversation should be stuppered before it gets going too far, you cannot release an XNA community game for free, Microsoft will not allow it, must be 200, 400 or 800 MS points, not other denominations, and not free. Simple as that, MS make money out of it too you know, why would they let you release a game for free?Also, tons of people release games for free over the net and it doesnt have the miraculous effect of getting you an insta-job.As for them being free and just 'paying the dues what make them' why the hell would MS do that? that would cost them money.... With the current setup they make 30% of everything, a pretty nice slice if you ask me, why the fuck would they suddenly drop that and start pouring money into it that they will never see returned? That's just stupid.And I don't know what you meant by 'gold member service' but in order to release a game via XNA Community Games, you already have to pay a yearly subscription fee. "

Besides the fact that its hardly viable that Microsoft starts pouring money down the drain on these games people seem to forget that they are providing this outlet so that people can create examples of their work. Not create a get rich quick hit. 

The reason Microsoft take a cut of any money made?

The games are being stored and downloaded from their servers NOT the servers of the people who make the community games. Yes they could do a better job of making the Community Games section easier to navigate, they know this thats why they are preparing an update for it. Anyone who thought that they could make a business out of this, and starts complaining when they don't, is shooting themselves in the foot. Even if your game is pretty good you just publicly showed that you have bad business sense and are an ungrateful pain in the Arse. How is this going to get you a job with a real developer? which would be EXACTLY the point of releasing a Community Game! 

Community Games are about building a portfolio and showing what you are capable of designing. The money you charge is to cover the cost of hosting your game on the service taking up valuable server space. The subscription you pay is for all the assistance, support and resources that come with it and to cover the cost of future developments in the XNA software. 

ANY money you make is a nice bonus. If you want to complain about Community Games not being economically viable then go ahead and build your own website, buy your own development software, advertise your own game (which you could do anyway online with Community Games) and host it on your own servers. 

Maybe, just Maybe you could be one of the 1 people in a hundred in the next couple of years to have an "Economically Viable" Indie Game. 

Oh apart from the fact that Clover isn't anywhere near good enough to be a breakout success like N+ or World of Goo. Yes I went there!

#48 Posted by MjHealy (1738 posts) -

Is the Communuity Games even avalible in Europe?

#49 Posted by The_A_Drain (3910 posts) -
@MjHealy said:
"Is the Communuity Games even avalible in Europe?"

Yes. Has been since day one.
#50 Edited by Agent47CSim2 (1085 posts) -

Falling Down's excellent.