Game developer states PS3 is NOT more powerful than 360.

Topic started by oldschool on May 11, 2009. Last post by thiago 6 months, 1 week ago.
Post by oldschool (4,464 posts) See mini bio

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(from vgchartz)

Sony has said that the PlayStation 3 has more power than Microsoft's Xbox 360, but that it requires a bit of patience and legwork to leverage that power. Jason Booth, a game developer , just doesn't see it happening. He thinks game designers are trying to match PS3 games to 360 games at best.

Jason Booth, a game developer who has worked on both Guitar Hero games and Rock Band, has posted some interesting comments on his blog regarding "PS3 misconceptions and spin."

"I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the PS3. They often mention how the PS3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin... ports to the PS3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and ...most PS3 exclusives will likely continue to suck," he says.

First and foremost, Booth doesn't think PS3 really has a graphical advantage. Why? "Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance," he says. "Additionally, the shader processing on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the PS3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power."

He also suggests that Blu-ray is not really an advantage: "[It's] great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the Blu-ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times, or god forbid if you're streaming from disk, tighter constraints on the amount of data you can stream."

He acknowledges that with the greater storage space of Blu-ray "there is the potential to use that to do something cool," but he argues that "most developers who use the entire Blu-ray drive are doing it to work around other problems with the PS3 such as its slow loading."

He adds, "For instance, in Resistance: Fall of Man, every art asset is stored on disk once for every level that uses it. So rather than storing one copy of a texture, you're storing it 12 times. If you took that entire game and removed all the duplicate data, it would likely fit on a DVD without any problem."

Ultimately, Booth says "the performance centric research into the PS3 has been around making it easier for developers to get the same level of performance you get out of the 360 naturally... developers must spend significantly more time and resources getting the PS3 to do what the 360 can already do easily and with a lot less code... On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling."

Whether these comments can be taken at face value is up to you; Booth adds at the end of his post that his remarks "might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches." It's an interesting perspective nonetheless.



I have a 360, not a PS3.  I only have the 360 for the games.  I have firmly believed that the PS3 is much, much better as a piece of hardware, but this does make you think a little - did I just buy into the repeated message?  Still, at least the PS3 does die on a regular basis - that has to be worth something.

I am sure you technically minded people will have a view on this - so go for it.


Post by AgentJ (6,522 posts) See mini bio
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I could believe this, since the PS3s use Blu-Ray yet still dont seem to really out-do the 360. If true, this is embarassing for Sony, who had an extra year and charged twice as much for their console.
The PS3 is starting to sell in Japan thanks to the Final Fantasy XIII demo, but it obviously wont have that advantage in America. Frankly, I think Sony is in trouble, if not just because the only must-have game (in my eyes) is Metal Gear Solid 4. 


Post by AndrewGaspar (1,806 posts) See mini bio

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Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong.


Post by Keyser_Soze (1,171 posts) See mini bio

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System Wars!!!


Post by AgentJ (6,522 posts) See mini bio
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AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Am I the only one Killzone 2s graphics haven't impressed? 


Post by neoepoch (215 posts) See mini bio
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AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Don't forget MGS4.


Post by ZombieHunter (2,807 posts) See mini bio

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AgentJ said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Am I the only one Killzone 2s graphics haven't impressed? 
"
no i could agree 


Post by Guardian (321 posts) See mini bio
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Some will say it is. Some will say is isn't. 


Post by oldschool (4,464 posts) See mini bio

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Keyser_Soze said:
"System Wars!!!"
It is probably inevitable, but still worthy a discussion.

I have no opinion.  The only time I have ever seen a PS3 running is in a store.  Not enough to judge it by.  What is important is his comments though.  Is he wrong or do we (you - whoever you are) agree with him?

My only significant comment would be, the graphics largely depend on the quality and effort of the developer, irrespective of the console.  I have seen many a graphic on the Wii that seriously impresses me and only reinforces the lack of effort by others.  On the 360, Eternal Sonata is by FAR, the best looking game I have ever seen.  The colour and animation is sublime.

However, on the technical matters, I have no idea if he is right or not.


Post by JJOR64 (6,001 posts) See mini bio
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Ok, so this means the MGS 4 could work on Xbox 360.


Post by TooWalrus (2,859 posts) See mini bio
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AgentJ said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Am I the only one Killzone 2s graphics haven't impressed? 
"
Nah, it looks good to me, but not much better than the 360 stuff out there. GT5 isn't even out yet, and I don't judge graphics until I see it played, not web footage.


Post by Arkthemaniac (5,585 posts) See mini bio

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AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Gran Turismo 5 is vaporware.

Anyways, on the case of Killzone . . . the game was in development for how long? Delayed how many times? Doesn't it stand to reason that the peeps at Guerilla delayed it so much because the PS3 was such a bitch to work?


Post by tekmojo (1,521 posts) See mini bio
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Guitar Hero and Rock Band....


Post by jakob187 (9,521 posts) See mini bio
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AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
First off, you are talking about Sony first-party games.  That's a bit hard to argue with when it's the company who made the console.  Moreover, how are you supposed to compare any of that?  Between the style of Killzone 2 and Gran Turismo 5 versus comparable graphics powerhouses on 360 like...off the top of my head...Gears of War 2 and GRID...it's tough to argue that.  You are ALSO talking about two games that were in development for...HOW LONG?

neoepoch said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Don't forget MGS4."
Yes, don't forget MGS4...or the rumored surprise announcement of MGS4: Oxide for 360 at E3.  This is a moot point if the game is seriously coming over to 360, and it will be even more of a moot point if it performs at the same level as the PS3 in terms of graphics.  That would just embarrass Sony.

______________

Look, I hate console wars, to be honest.  However, all of the things in that article...as well as the horror stories we've all heard over the years from the Bioshock team and Digital Extremes (and let's not forget the times when Kojima was pissed off at Sony as well)...it would seem that homeboy is right on the money.  I mean, Killzone 2 took 4 years...5 years...to complete!  IT TOOK HALF AS LONG AS DUKE NUKEM FOREVER'S DEVELOPMENT CYCLE!!!  Yes, KZ2 does look good, but by all means, it's not the end-all be-all of graphics, as graphics will always be a subjective thing for the most part unless you are talking about strict and pure photorealism and that's all.

Personally, I find it refreshing to see that a developer is willing to step out and say "look, man...the PS3 is a hoss to program for, and it's difficult, and it's not what everyone thinks it's cracked up to be".  By all means, he's not going to BASH the system because his products are sold on the platform...but he will speak out about the trials and tribulations that are involved in getting a game out on the system.

So bravo, Jason.  I commend you for being upfront and honest so that the public can know at least a portion of the truth.  360 owners will surely use the comments to bash Sony's box, but whatever.  They're all 'tards anyways.  What's important about the statements he's made and the words that he's said is that we are CONSTANTLY talking about how games are always costing millions upon millions of dollars to make, and yet when we read something like this and see just how difficult a company has made it for developers to properly and effectively do their job, it says far more to me as a consumer than anything that a fanboy argument/rant could ever say.


Post by oldschool (4,464 posts) See mini bio

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JJOR64 said:
"Ok, so this means the MGS 4 could work on Xbox 360."
Apparently so:

 While at TGS, Konami PR mouthpiece Yoshitaka Arai told Morningstar:

The worldwide demand for an Xbox 360version (of MGS4) is quite high, and it is something we are currently looking in to.



Post by pause422 (4,066 posts) See mini bio
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AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
How do they say hes wrong? Seeing as they will always be Sony exclusives there is no proof that will ever happen if you were looking at each game on both the PS3 and the 360. As far as space goes, yes, having things on one disc is better than what the 360 does with some games and has multiple that you have to swap, I really hate that. As far as hardware power though, there has hardly ever been any proof besides Sony's own claims. Not that it matters to me anyway, I have both consoles and I have games I enjoy on both...still, what this developer says could easily be the truth.


Post by Tarsier (1,343 posts) See mini bio
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this is nothing new, game developers have been saying this since the consoles first came out.


Post by redgauss (96 posts) See mini bio
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AgentJ said:
"Frankly, I think Sony is in trouble"
They won the home video format war with blu-ray and one could argue that that was their goal all along. Whether or not they "win" this console generation doesn't matter much in their long run view of the entertainment market. Once they are receiving royalties from every movie, tv box set, game etc... their worries will be long gone.  


Post by PowerSerj (894 posts) See mini bio

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jakob187 said:
"as graphics will always be a subjective thing for the most part unless you are talking about strict and pure photorealism and that's all."
Isn't that the benchmark games have been striving to achieve since, like, forever? But I digress.

I don't really feel one way or the other about this. This is just fuel for the fanboy fire.


Post by thiago (585 posts) See mini bio

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Opinions are worth nothing, facts are what matter. He is analyzing for one point of view only. The Cell is more capable for floating point operations than the 360, so in theory it could be used for better physics, geometrical calculations, etc.

I haven't studied the Cell architecture yet, but knowing how developers are, I am sure they don't want to leave their comfort zone. Being "worse" in the software developer world usually mean being "different", i.e., it may require a different approach for solving it.

Killzone was gorgeous not because of texture resolution only, but because of particle effects, lighting, etc. Probably they found a way of harnessing the Cell to do some heavy lifting work.


Post by AgentJ (6,522 posts) See mini bio
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redgauss said:
"AgentJ said:
"Frankly, I think Sony is in trouble"
They won the home video format war with blu-ray and one could argue that that was their goal all along. Whether or not they "win" this console generation doesn't matter much in their long run view of the entertainment market. Once they are receiving royalties from every movie, tv box set, game etc... their worries will be long gone.   "
But it's not clear yet that anyone actually WANTS to move to a new format. And even if they do, it could be 10 years before such a shift really takes place. so far signs have shown that the market as a whole isnt ready for Blu-Ray


Post by thiago (585 posts) See mini bio

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Arkthemaniac said:
"AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Gran Turismo 5 is vaporware.

Anyways, on the case of Killzone . . . the game was in development for how long? Delayed how many times? Doesn't it stand to reason that the peeps at Guerilla delayed it so much because the PS3 was such a bitch to work?
"

GT5 Prologue has been out for quite some time. And even if the GT5 complete will include improvements, the current one out is already better looking than any other racing game out there.


Post by Brendan (460 posts) See mini bio
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Guardian said:
"Some will say it is. Some will say is isn't. "

Oh my god, is your picture from Reboot? That is all.


Post by thiago (585 posts) See mini bio

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Not trying to do some cheap attack on the guy, but is Guitar Hero and Rock Band that much resource intensive? Maybe those games are so complex that the PS3 is not enough? :)


Post by iAmJohn (1,450 posts) See mini bio
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Keyser_Soze said:
"System Wars!!!"



Post by Meteora (695 posts) See mini bio
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This is an interesting read. I always thought that developers were lazy when it came to making ports for the PS3. I speculated that the processor cell was fairly complicated and it took more time to develop for. Raw and technical hardware does not directly translate to better graphics by the way, most games look pretty much the same on both the 360 and PS3 with some differences (such as better anti-aliasing for 360, I can't remember what specific point does the PS3 handle better at).


Post by PercyChuggs (927 posts) See mini bio
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I own both, so who cares. Only moron fanboys.


Post by alexl86 (250 posts) See mini bio
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Isn't this common knowledge by now? Graphically, the 360 is probably more powerful than the PS3, though the PS3 benefit some from the immense size of the blu-ray, even if it loads slower.

AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."

Uhm, what? I can see why you bring up Killzone, but GT5? Racing games in general don't make good graphical showcases and GT games in particular have very nice looking car models, but nothing more. As for Killzone, does it really look that good?


Post by Meteora (695 posts) See mini bio
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alexl86 said:
AndrewGaspar said:
"Frankly, Gran Turismo 5 and Killzone 2 say he's wrong."
Uhm, what? I can see why you bring up Killzone, but GT5? Racing games in general don't make good graphical showcases and GT games in particular have very nice looking car models, but nothing more. As for Killzone, does it really look that good?"

Racing games are also great for showcasing lots of flat cut grass!







... Yeah


Post by randiolo (597 posts) See mini bio
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who is this guy? he could make coffees at ubisoft for all i know. MGS4 couldnt work on the 360, becoz if it could.. it would.. but kojima said it wasnt possible. This thread is just an elaborate flame..