Where is everyone on the sexism?

I don't necessarily want female protagonists. And I don't want every female (and, for that matter, male) character to be shining examples of progressive character design. All I want is a bit of diversity and complexity to the cast of characters, and I want those diversities to be treated with some semblance of respect.

If every significant female character in GTA5 is an incompetent piece of arm-candy that simply exists for the pleasure of male characters, that's a big fucking problem.

Call the police!!!

@ottoman673: I don't think women are a minority

In socio political terms they're still considered a minority. Obviously that has changed radically since the 60s, but we're still teaching it.

So your argument is that all fiction is irrelevant to the society that produces it and consumes it?

And I think most people vocalize their concerns in the wrong way. Nobody is accusing a game of being sexist or misogynistic--the game is an inanimate object. And I don't think that people really care about the beliefs of the creators and writers of the game--again, that's mostly irrelevant to the lives of the individual. What matters are the beliefs and ideologies that the fictional narrative perpetuates. No, I'm not arguing that the masses are empty husks that consume and reproduce media without question or thought, but I'd say you're bananas if you think that narratives and representations have no effect on society as a whole.

I should've placed that term in quotations. Populous-wise they aren't a minority, but as for their prominence and appearance/use in strong roles in games, they definitely are.

If they weren't, Anita Sarkeesian wouldn't matter.

You seem to have no interest in discussion, so why even bother starting this thread? I feel like I should stop turning to the Giantbomb community for proper games discussion.

I'm just going to say it: It's okay to ask developers why there aren't female protagonists as long as it's okay for developers to say "Cause it's my fucking story and I won't change the protagonist just because you want that." (probably phrased a bit better). If you could force developers to write characters you like I would begin by forcing them to write good characters (not talking bout GTA here, just most games). It's a problem when publishers tell them "You can't have a female protagonist", it's NOT a problem if the developers choose to make their protagonist male. Also, if you try to tell Rockstar how to do their job you obviously have no clue about the industry. Not only do they generally know what to do, they would probably rather shut down before doing what the public tell them to do.

I'm just going to say it: It's okay to ask developers why there aren't female protagonists as long as it's okay for developers to say "Cause it's my fucking story and I won't change the protagonist just because you want that." (probably phrased a bit better). If you could force developers to write characters you like I would begin by forcing them to write good characters (not talking bout GTA here, just most games). It's a problem when publishers tell them "You can't have a female protagonist", it's NOT a problem if the developers choose to make their protagonist male. Also, if you try to tell Rockstar how to do their job you obviously have no clue about the industry. Not only do they generally know what to do, they would probably rather shut down before doing what the public tell them to do.

Yeah because GTA V is really getting crucified.

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/grand-theft-auto-v

@sdharrison: Did you create this thread just to be a dick to everyone who disagrees with you? At least give the illusion that you're trying to create a discussion.

I read somewhere that a radio station in the game humorously discuss using a woman as a urinal. If that's not sexist then I don't know what is.

I think half the debate has been caused by the fan's excited for the game saying that can't wait to use a prostitute and then murder them to get the money back in the game and things like that. I think that's pretty sexist too.

I wonder if there are male prostitutes in this game?

@project343 said:

I didn't mean to imply this, but following this sort of argument is the logic train that gets us to Jack Thompson. I don't think it's good for 11 year olds to play games like this, and I personally find a lot of it distasteful, but that doesn't mean the game promotes sexism, or that whatever the game inspires in some impressionable 13 year old can be held against the game in a product review. Ultimately, while we can all talk about our personal like or dislikes about what the game does, it doesn't mean we should censor any aspect of it, or try to dress up our personal dislike of something in words like "misogyny" in the same way that I would consider someone a lunatic if they said that GTA encourages gun crime.

And really, all of that is irrelevant to the central point of this thread: Is Grand Theft Auto 5 sexist or misogynistic? The answer to that is still no. A game with poor female characters is just a game with poor female characters, but that is not indicative of some deeper feeling or motive, in the same way that a game with really awful black characters doesn't make it racist, or a game with a repulsive gay character doesn't make it homophobic.

If this game has gay sex... I can't even imagine. My head would explode.

not talking about reviews and wasn't talking about gta directly,

more how it feels like (and i know its not true or more that im generalizing) a Big budget game cant just come out and not get criticized for some aspect of its gameworld (characters, story, morals, etc) .

to me it very well feels like if this continues, game devs will have to be way to mindful than they should be of a imo oversensitive audience,

It's a sexist statement, that's pretty much the only point. I possess no knowledge of the caliber of person that Dan Houser is, next chance I get I'll have to talk with him. Saying a single sexist statement does not make someone sexist, it's not a boolean thing, people are not perfect. We've all lied a few times in our lives, but that does not brand one a liar eternally.

Had he said "These characters are the ones we chose for GTA V and we're happy how they fit into the story." would have been a much better answer. The words he actually spoke, when asked why there was not a female protagonist was because 'being masculine was so key to the story'. Now every person who reads the words either contextualizes it as "Oh he meant that the game is about what it's like to be a man turned to crime in the city" which is just as likely as the words meaning "Oh he meant that a female protagonist would be weak and vulnerable to be a tough criminal" or even "We're selling to dude bros and marketing research along with months of play tests show that even our best creative team couldn't stop them from shouting 'hehe titties' while playing the game."

OH MAN. A SEXISM DEBATE ON A VIDEO GAME WEBSITE: THIS IS GOING TO BE GOLD.

<insert popcorn eating gif>

No kidding. People are crying sexist on everything now and the word is beginning to lose its meaning. When something actually sexist appears, it won't have as much of an impact because people have called everything prior to it sexist as well.

It seems these guys are just bad/incapable of making good female characters. I wouldn't call it sexism.

But I'd still massively disagree with anyone who thinks the whole topic is just people "pushing an agenda" or a non issue. Unsurprisingly, these kind of comments typically come from white, (probably straight) males. If you fall into that category and are trying to push the whole thing aside because it doesn't affect you: fuck you, you have no idea what you're talking about.

@milkman:

Have you never played a Rockstar game before? It has countless well written strong female characters.

Run for congress and use that as your slogan. Easy work.

Thats not a "big fucking problem". Thats a small problem.

Get some perspective, jesus.

A big budget game coming out and not getting criticized for any aspect of its game world, to me, is a failure on the critic's part. Unless a game has built some sort of perfect narrative and world, every game should be judged and critiqued on these merits. That's what being part of a growing medium is about.

Any artist who would compromise their vision in fear of backlash wasn't making anything interesting to begin with.

I like you. You're one of the most well-reasoned individuals that I've seen discussing this topic. Like parts of the rest of my post argue, I certainly don't subscribe to the hypodermic needle model, but I do think that poorly written characters and stereotypical depictions are problematic for society. It makes it far too easy for someone to rely on preconceived notions about particular minorities rather than familiarizing themselves with the nuances of a given culture or group.

Should these representations be held against a game? I think that all comes down to what you define as a 'review.' You call it a 'product review,' which I feel like does a disservice to the video game medium. Even in Petit's review, you can see what she thinks of the game from a technical perspective: there's not a single complaint. But she does weigh in on some larger issues that trouble her, and leaves the door open to an important discussion. At the end of the day, a 'is this game good or bad?' review is too reductionistic when the discussion can be so much more. Video games, like all other mediums, are more than just products: they're open-ended conversations with the rest of society, and it's our job (and the journalist's job) to converse back.

You see similar issues in other mediums. Just look at Ebert's Kick-Ass review. I feel like, as the 'technical standards' for these mediums establish themselves, there's really so little to say about 'media as products.' Go over to IGN and see how frequently AAA games walk away with 8.5-10 scores. It's boring. There's virtually nothing important being said in those reviews other than the typical 'fuelling the hype train and page clicks' drabble.

Sound 1-10
Visuals 1-10
Gameplay 1-10
Value 1-10

Score: 1-10

I feel like this sort of 'product review' structure should be relegated to a single paragraph that prefaces the proper discussion. It addresses issues like game length, performance, optimization, etc.. With that covered, the rest of the review should engage with the systems, narratives, and potential problems that the narrative and systems bring forth.

And... that's a tangent. I'll stop here.

When misogamy becomes a fun and worthwhile concept to feature in a video game, or a valuable storytelling technique, your argument might become valid. Maybe. These GTA games aren't actually realistic.

Then again, it seems like Rockstar's core audience could really, really get behind some more serious homophobic and misogamist sentiments in their games.

In the context of this discussion board--that is, a site for video game criticism and analysis--yes, that's a big fucking problem. Zoom out a bit to the real world where children are starving in Africa, I agree. An ant-sized problem.

Get some context, jesus.

Well no. Not even Petit thought it was a HUGE problem. She gave the game a 9/10, and she seems particularly sensitive on the subject (which is fine). It was worth a mention, but nothing more. So yeah, even in your context it's a pretty minor footnote when you look at the game.

If it was a big problem then she would have spent a bit more time talking about it than a few seconds in an 8 minute long video review and she wouldn't have given it a 9/10.

It's a small problem worth mentioning, but not a big one worth getting that upset over or stomping your feet.

If this forces them to just throw in a female character just for the sake of doing so, wouldn't that too be sexist? For crying out loud, if it fits the story, fine. In this case, it didn't, and that should be fine as well.

AS for the review She has a history with stupid stuff like Persona 4 is anti gay and anti transgender. Or that LAst of us is only a typical male powerfantasy story because you can not play as Ellie the whole time. It is just luaghable. Same with polygon but not one takes polygon serious anymore anyway.

As for Sexism. It fits in this world perfectly. And the world is not only full of sexism but also stereotypical characters like all the black ones or the russian car dealer the paparazzi, and so on. It is a world full of this stuff and it fits perfectly in this universe. People always seem to forget that this is not the real world but a more fictional and in GTA games it is always absolute extreme.

Anyone remember that episode of South Park, Smug Alert?

Game journalists constantly acting like the people in that has made me completely lose interest in the practice. I haven't read a single editorial in months now and honestly, I couldn't be happier with that decision. I get to play games without feeling guilty about it or questioning it all the time. I get to have fun.

And this brings up a core point of her detractors.

Women are as much a minority in games as men are a minority in pop music, reality TV, or internet slash-fiction, or Facebook games, or VNs, or any piece of media that more women enjoy than men. No one believes that those need to change to be more inclusive to attract men, everyone assumes that men can make choices about what they like. Men aren't being left out by Justin Bieber's primary market being women, and no one is suggesting that Bieber change to be more into what men want (whatever that is). Because we accept men can make alterior choices and be into pop girls or rock music or dubstep or whatever. If your target is women, no one argues with you that you should be targeting men, because we assume men are capable of deciding what it is they like, and spending their money on it (thus allowing more of what they like to be created).

But this all breaks down when it comes to women, and I've never understood why. Why does any male-dominated audience or consumer market require more female presence, do female-dominated markets require more male presence? If you think so, that's fine, at least that's being fair, but I tend to lean that markets should be allowed to want whatever they want. I don't want "women's entertainment" to butch it up with cars and guns and whatever to attract me, I want them to do their thing for their audience. I don't care about the View or the Talk or whatever female-dominated talk program is ruling daytime TV... I don't want to watch it because it doesn't appeal to me... and they don't need to change what their audience wants in order to get me into their audience. Why doesn't this hold true in the reverse?

That's not even dealing with exactly what you would need to do to attract an audience who (according to what I've heard) isn't into what you're selling in the first place. How do you make these games 'women-friendly'? You'll hear the crowd shout a million different things; more women, less men, less violence, more emotions, less cars, more ... I don't know? Celebrities? I don't know. At the point when you've taken away the things that 'predominantly men' were willing to spend money on, aren't they just going to find an alternative that still has the men, the violence, the cars, the whatever it is that we think makes men like video games more than women? And then are you going to move the crusade over to the new thing that they like? Why?

I have no problem with those companies even deciding that yes, they do want to attract this new demographic for fun and profit. I just don't like it framed as an ethical question. I don't like the idea that making something to appeal for one demographic is an ethical good, while making it for a different demographic is an ethical failure. Because that just tells anyone in the second demographic that you're not the right kind of people.

I'm a man. I like women (notice: plural). Easy women to be precise. My opinion should not matter to you. I am a worthless human being. Or not.

God I hate this shit.

replace the hillbilly meth dealer with Catalina.

done!

I guess I am just tired of feeling like video games journalists are pushing some political agenda constantly. Some of this forced commentary makes me feel as if I am reading an old Armond White movie review on Rotten Tomatoes. You know the guy. The person who looks for nonsensical reasons to attack movies and seems to find racism in everything. Well, I feel like people are going out of their way to make "Amagawd Sexism in Games" some kind of running talking point.

GTA has never been about female empowerment. It's been about a male thug power fantasy. This isn't new. It wasn't new years ago when we were all inviting hookers into our cars and watching them bounce up and down while health regenerated. There is no way to make a game like that PC and acceptable for all audiences.

Guess what? Some people don't like hunting. It might not be a good idea to invite a PETA member to write a review on Cabela's Dangerous Hunts where they lambast the idea of killing animals. Likewise, it may not be a good idea for people who see sexism everywhere to attack a game based around the thug life because it isn't filled with strong female characters. No shit.

I guess the weird thing is that I think of myself as fairly liberal too. I'm not some ultra conservative caveman or anything. But I feel as if unless I am constantly being hyper critical of all games for not openly embracing feminism and homosexuality (even if they have nothing to do with these things) that I am somehow labelled as a monster. It's getting old.

I guess I am just tired of feeling like video games journalists are pushing some political agenda constantly. Some of this forced commentary makes me feel as if I am reading an old Armond White movie review on Rotten Tomatoes. You know the guy. The person who looks for nonsensical reasons to attack movies and seems to find racism in everything. Well, I feel like people are going out of their way to make "Amagawd Sexism in Games" some kind of running talking point.

GTA has never been about female empowerment. It's been about a male thug power fantasy. This isn't new. It wasn't new years ago when we were all inviting hookers into our cars and watching them bounce up and down while health regenerated. There is no way to make a game like that PC and acceptable for all audiences.

Guess what? Some people don't like hunting. It might not be a good idea to invite a PETA member to write a review on Cabela's Dangerous Hunts where they lambast the idea of killing animals. Likewise, it may not be a good idea for people who see sexism everywhere to attack a game based around the thug life because it isn't filled with strong female characters. No shit.

I guess the weird thing is that I think of myself as fairly liberal too. I'm not some ultra conservative caveman or anything. But I feel as if unless I am constantly being hyper critical of all games for not openly embracing feminism and homosexuality (even if they have nothing to do with these things) that I am somehow labelled as a monster. It's getting old.

why? what sense does this make? To switch one pointless character with another? Come on now. Rockstar can do what they want and yes you also have the right to think about that what you want but if you call them sexist for trying to tell a story how they think its best or misogynistic then you really should shut up. Having an opinion is one thing. Starting a witch hunt just because you can not play as a women is another.

The GTA series for me has always been about the satire. It's an extremely cynical snapshot of contemporary America through the eyes of the seedy underworld. Based on what I know of the game, it seems like Rockstar wanted to tell three very specific stories: a middle aged retired crime lord who is bored out his mind, an upstart gangbanger who wants to make it big, and a crazy, murderous sociopath with a troubled childhood. Could any of these characters have been women? Sure. But that's not the norm. These characters are male archetypes. If you want the most troubling, cynical, and yet somehow unnaturally realistic interpretation of these archetypes as they exist in our world today, you have to go with male characters. I'm disappointed there aren't strong female characters in the game (though I'm somehow unwilling to believe there aren't interesting female characters in the game, as that would be contrary to the Rockstar pedigree) but I don't think it detracts from the overall experience. GTA has never been about a single character, it's been about archetypes. It was about an immigrant hopelessly searching for the American dream and now it's about frustration in the face of post-economic-downturn America. So far these archetypes have been male dominated and male oriented. That may change as time goes on, but that is how they stand now. And when Rockstar wants to tell the story of an archetype dominated by a female population, then they will. I have no doubt in my mind about that.

What I'm basically saying is more women should get into crime.

The GTA series for me has always been about the satire. It's an extremely cynical snapshot of contemporary America through the eyes of the seedy underworld. Based on what I know of the game, it seems like Rockstar wanted to tell three very specific stories: a middle aged retired crime lord who is bored out his mind, an upstart gangbanger who wants to make it big, and a crazy, murderous sociopath with a troubled childhood. Could any of these characters have been women? Sure. But that's not the norm. These characters are male archetypes. If you want the most troubling, cynical, and yet somehow unnaturally realistic interpretation of these archetypes as they exist in our world today, you have to go with male characters. I'm disappointed there aren't strong female characters in the game (though I'm somehow unwilling to believe there aren't interesting female characters in the game, as that would be contrary to the Rockstar pedigree) but I don't think it detracts from the overall experience. GTA has never been about a single character, it's been about archetypes. It was about an immigrant hopelessly searching for the American dream and now it's about frustration in the face of post-economic-downturn America. So far these archetypes have been male dominated and male oriented. That may change as time goes on, but that is how they stand now. And when Rockstar wants to tell the story of an archetype dominated by a female population, then they will. I have no doubt in my mind about that.

What I'm basically saying is more women should get into crime.

thats a real "iron fist" view which i get it.

but i still believe (no matter how naive it is) that to me, there is a much tamer route that can happen.

The GTA series for me has always been about the satire. It's an extremely cynical snapshot of contemporary America through the eyes of the seedy underworld. Based on what I know of the game, it seems like Rockstar wanted to tell three very specific stories: a middle aged retired crime lord who is bored out his mind, an upstart gangbanger who wants to make it big, and a crazy, murderous sociopath with a troubled childhood. Could any of these characters have been women? Sure. But that's not the norm. These characters are male archetypes. If you want the most troubling, cynical, and yet somehow unnaturally realistic interpretation of these archetypes as they exist in our world today, you have to go with male characters. I'm disappointed there aren't strong female characters in the game (though I'm somehow unwilling to believe there aren't interesting female characters in the game, as that would be contrary to the Rockstar pedigree) but I don't think it detracts from the overall experience. GTA has never been about a single character, it's been about archetypes. It was about an immigrant hopelessly searching for the American dream and now it's about frustration in the face of post-economic-downturn America. So far these archetypes have been male dominated and male oriented. That may change as time goes on, but that is how they stand now. And when Rockstar wants to tell the story of an archetype dominated by a female population, then they will. I have no doubt in my mind about that.

What I'm basically saying is more women should get into crime.

thats a real "iron fist" view which i get it.

but i still believe (no matter how naive it is) that to me, there is a much tamer route that can happen.

and , to me, all of these discussions that have taken place around these subjects, have done nothing but reinforce to people that internet communities are the worst, and i wouldn't be surprised if down the line if this keeps up, people are going to stop listening to critics.

all of this activism, channeled towards this little internet civil war thats going on here,

i cant help but feel that same energy could be used for something that would actually result in a imo positive change.

look at what a group in france did, they rallied the goddamm league of legends group ( a group notorious for how bad it is) and they raised over 2 million in charity

gamers have that covered, but you wont see that get any publicity in america,

@project343: I see where you're coming from, and I do apologize for the poor choice of words. Ultimately though I'm just not comfortable holding what this game might inspire in others, against it. That's not the game's fault. Do I find weird stripper-harassing minigames kind of creepy? Sure, but if it makes sense in the context of the game's world and the game's characters, then more power to it. If something just isn't for me, or doesn't appeal to me, that doesn't really mean that it's bad, or encouraging some sort of bad behavior.

I think it's interesting to talk about these things in a different setting, like a podcast for instance, but I'm really 110% over listening to this same debate being brought up over and over again by people who are clearly pushing a very specific agenda. Because women should be represented more in video games (or any other kind of pop culture medium) doesn't mean that whenever a game comes out that doesn't represent women equally, that game is inherently doing something badly and it's a target to attack. True equality is really only going to happen when we can accept a story on its own merits. The no-holds-barred attitude that the press takes when it comes to trying to force feminism down everyone's throat, no matter how many games we have to go after to get there, really needs to stop and it falls on the press to get us there, I think.

I... never....

no, you know what, arguing with you is pointless because you would never ever consider anyone else's opinion except your own

Just look at it this way: if everything is sexist, nothing is.