Where is everyone on the sexism?

I find that the general discussion of "sexism" is as dirty as sexism itself. It's just another flavor of the week topic that every person thinks they have the answer to, or just want to watch the discussion go up in flames. I stay away from it because 99% of people involved don't want, or care, to solve the issue. If there is even an issue in the first place.

Ah good ol' <Some chick>, you're all that's keeping me from giving up reading these gaming sites for good!

Seriously though, you raise a very good point. I follow about 5 girl's pretty popular video game related youtube channels, and they're all psyched about GTA V. They also like a diverse amount of genres (shock! first person shooters, included!) and they think that most of the debate about sexism in the industry is overblown at best. Most of the girls I know in real life play shooters or action games and love them. I'm sure they'd dig games with female main characters too (as long as they're good games), but they're just as happy playing as a guy or a flower or a robot or whatever.

It's usually the dudes (or feminist first, gamer second ladies like Anita) that have this image of this imaginary delicate girl gamer who's oppressed because she has no games to play because they're all white straight male power fantasies and has to be sheltered with trigger warnings about violent content and blah, blah, blah. The very vocal 'journalists' are in the minority of women who are enraged about these things.

Same here. Girls or women I know and who love to game give a total fuck about this. It always these people which first game experience was a Wii or mostly play casual facebook stuff etc. or these so called hardcore feminists who think all man are bad and every game should have a female main character.

I hope game designers don't take this nonsense seriously. Include a strong female character if you have an idea for a strong female character. Don't shoehorn one in to appease a vocal minority of critics who don't understand how narrative works.

I burst out laughing when I got to the exact same creeper cam minigame Killer is Dead did... better.

HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THIS THREAD HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED THE GAME or even y'know FINISHED IT.

Why don't we all discuss it when we have some idea what actually happens.

And for the record, yet another thread about sexism started by someone who doesn't think there is a problem and won't listen to anyone else's arguments. - Who's really driving this debate?

Oh wow, you did it! You successfully created a Kotaku thread on Giantbomb! You sir, are dispicable ^_^

Yeah it is pretty bad in GTAV it is more aggressive but why can I only touch her ass and legs? Killer is dead was more comical but got the finger because it was from Japan.

The game is fucking called Grand Theft Auto. I dunno if people know, but the very title of the game is a felony. If someone is expecting anything but terrible things from it, A: How have they been hiding under a rock from a pop culture touch stone since 2001, B: What the fuck is your problem.

For a far more even handed opinion from me on the whole thing, see the review compilation thread, but it's 4:30 in the morning now so I'm keeping this shit succinct.

@klei: You can mow down a thousand dudes but woe betide you if you've not got a single female protagonist

You're disgusted that hetero WASP men are the largest demographic in games? You know, you're right, the fact that these hetero WASP men are the ones who spend the most money on games is disgusting. What an awful group of people they are, we should do something about them.

Luckily, I'm a hetero French-Irish male so I get to escape the purge! ... for now.

Wasp men sound pretty disgusting. What with their wings and alarming black and yellow color scheme. Bee men are much friendlier.

@punkxblaze: We'll see who gets more honey! BZZZZZ!

I'm in the not caring department.

@klei: actually it isn't

Yes, any female who voices any type of complaint, or who wants to simply discuss issues in a measured manner is ALWAYS a facebook gamer or someone who has little to no experience with games. Except, you know, the women who have actually been gaming for a long ass time and who actually give two craps about games and gaming culture. Like me. :) I know you are being hyperbolic, but jeez come on. I give people here a lot of slack because I understand this stuff is coming up a lot and it is not something that needs to be a topic where every game is concerned. Even I am getting sick of some people trying to apply this argument to every game and every protagonist, especially games that deal with the seedy underbelly of humanity, like Hotline Miami 2 or this game. In fact, earlier up thread I commented that I haven't played the game so commenting would be premature. I did say that I hope that the caliber of female character is on the level of other GTA games, mentioning GTA 3 in particular as a game that I remember having interesting female characters on par with their male counterparts in a lot of cases. That's it.

It's really aggravating to me that somehow anyone who even says something as innocuous as "I hope these characters are good and I can't wait to see them to draw my own conclusions" is now lumped in with reactionary people who haven't so much as touched a game or hardcore feminists. This is a common argument to discredit people, and it sucks. I try not to do it to the people here that I disagree with, I don't call everyone who is contrary to me a misogynistic pig in these threads because I understand that most people are not. The word is also, most of the time, not true for most people I interact with and it's too strong a term to toss around lightly. People are just passionate about their viewpoint. You should afford people the same courtesy. Again, I always tend to give you a lot of slack. I understand you are passionate about these things, for whatever reason, even more so than I am. However, this kind of stuff makes me reevaluate the conversation. I don't want to take this kind of stuff personal, but if you actually believe this, I feel sad. Not for you, but sad because I know that if you actually think that anyone who disagrees and wants to discuss these issues is somehow not allowed or not intelligent enough to speak about games, then I don't know where we go from here. Like I mentioned earlier, this is a common tactic to discredit people trying to have a valid discussion, I've heard it used in various situations outside of games, and it sucks no matter where it happens.

I will also preemptively say that I understand that you may just be talking about a certain group and not intend to lump everyone together. However, using such blanket statements makes even people who would normally read and consider your arguments with an open mind perhaps reevaluate whether it is worth the time or effort to engage in discussion. Food for thought, and all that.

I feel like video game designers should be able to make any creative decision they want.

@jadegl: we can totally discuss it but if a person throw stuff like misogynistic and sexist or patriarchy around like it is Christmas than I see no ground for discussion at all. For example the gamespot review: This is a person who called persona 4 anti gay and anti transgender. This was a person who called the last of us a typical male power fantasy story just because you had to protect a child and you could not play as Ellie the whole time. People like that are not worth the time and effort to be honest.For hotline Miami 2 this actually lead to censorship as well. And I am totally against censorship. He still thinks it was a cool idea but because of the PC mob which rules the internet these days he most likely will cut it from the whole game and I think this is not ok.

As for this particular game it is kind of ironic that the only thing people are not comfortable with is the misogynistic and sexist stuff and characters. No talk about the racist ones and black stereotypes. No discussion about Trevor who is maybe the most fucked up character in an AAA ever. All we hear that GTA is sexist but the other stuff is totally fine. And this is so typical about the whole controversy. Everything is fair game violence sure, bad black characters sure but as soon you put women in there some people are going on a crazy train.

I can totally see that people can feel uncomfortable about some things but that should never censor in any way the artistic direction of a movie, book, game or media in general. We live for the most part in a free world and you have the freedom to totally ignore it if you do not like it. You can totally have an opinion about stuff but the moment you accuse the developer or a media of something you better back it up and calling a GTA misogynistic because women are badly represented in this game is not a valid point when the whole game has only these extreme and really awful people in it no matter what gender.

@darji: I am talking specifically about your reactions and dealings with people here on this forum. Your post mentions things you have talked about in multiple threads ad infinitum. I know these things already. What I personally find aggravating is what you implied in your post, if not outright said, that people who bring up these issues are either radical feminists or people who know nothing about games. I hope you don't actually believe that. I also wanted to warn you that being inflammatory with your comments and painting people with blanket terms aggravates even the most understanding forum posters. Just like someone coming in a posting and comment calling everyone sexists if they don't agree with their viewpoint on a game is probably just as aggravating to you.

@jadegl: For me, it's all about fairness. If we want to say that depictions of men or women or whatever in games are subjective and it's up to the people who consume them to make their own decisions about them, that's fine. That's where I stand anyways. But when gender ideologues want to focus on every single representation or non-representation of women with a fine tooth comb, picking out absolutely any traits, scenarios or plot events that they feel do not properly promote their gender ideology, then based on egalitarianism, I demand the same be done for men. But that doesn't happen. I'm told that Marus Fenix is a male power fantasy and that's what I want because I'm a male and thus that means I like Marcus Fenix. That violence suffered by women is unacceptable, but violence suffered by men; 'well, they probably deserved it.' Or that men are not sexualized (men having sexual value? How dare they imagine they have value) because they're not sexualized in the same way as women.

Basically what game do we want to play? Do we want everyone to be able to decide for themselves if they like this or that or if they want male characters or female characters or they don't care, everyone free to make their own subjective choices and the market will create what the market will bear... Or do we want a lot of social prescriptions about what kind of female characters are 'acceptable', how many, what do they do, what these fictional women are allowed to do, who is allowed to make them, what social politics the game has? Because if it's the latter, if we're all going to legislate entertainment to have women treated a specific way, then for damn sure people like me are going to demand that men receive the exact same 'benefits'. That's universalism, and I think almost everyone expects it on a straight gut level. They expect what's good for the goose is good for the gander, and vice versa. Hence the argument when gender ideologues are hyperfocused on what happens to one gender and not the other, most people look at them as unrepentant hypocrites.

Personally I want the former example; everyone free to make what they want, consume what they want, and then let supply and demand work themselves out. But if we're going to let gender ideologues control what we're 'allowed' to create, what we're allowed to consume (under threat of social shame and stigmatization), then absolutely, I'm going to demand the same treatment for men that women receive. If making a game with no female characters, or with 'poor' female characters, or with villainous female characters, or simply female characters that the idelogue in question doesn't like is sexist against women... why wouldn't it be the exact same in the opposite direction?

And please differentiate me from Darji.

@brodehouse: No problem, I completely understand and appreciate that point of view. I never want anyone to amend or change what they are making. What they want to say is their point of view. That does not absolve the creator from critique, though. In fact, with games becoming more mainstream and more people playing them, these discussions will continue, as well as discussions on race, the handling of religion, etc. This happens with movies and TV all the time, I just see it as part of pop culture. People consume so much stuff and they invariably want to comment on it, critique it, and there is nothing wrong with that. I also have issue with people wanting changes to be forced on the content. However, I don't think that that is the case for most people bringing up these issues that they have. Remember, the reviews are overwhelmingly positive for this game, and from what I have read (I am being careful not to read too much to avoid spoilers) its not that people are calling for boycotts or wanting the creators to change anything, just that they view some elements as off-putting. That's, of course, their opinion and they are free to voice it as a reviewer and content creator for their respective sites. But they're not inherently wrong, they have an opinion and I am sure if you were to ask them, they could provide examples of where that opinion came from. Some of this is going to always be open to interpretation.

For instance, some people may find A Clockwork Orange (the movie) as misogynistic and they would be able to provide examples. I view it in a different way, probably because I base my views more on the novel. I can still understand why someone may come to that conclusion, however. And some people may find the treatment of a character in a certain game as sexist, and I may not agree. I think the conversation is valuable, though. It reminds me that there are multiple ways to view things, especially between people from different walks of life. My parents have a different view of some movies and novels than I do due to how they were raised and their life experiences. I had a profoundly different view of some things than people I have met who are devoutly religious.

Mind you, I am not saying that we cater to everyone. Just that we keep in mind that there is no black and white where these issues, and others, are concerned. I have no problem with 95% of game content. The 5% I do have an issue with I tend to avoid. I know it's "just not for me" and I move on. My main concern is the treatment of real people, real men and women, not the characters in games. I am much more concerned with the treatment of women at conventions or at tech companies. Those are real honest to goodness things that we can see, acknowledge and change. It is frustrating that every story now, no matter how serious, is pushed aside as "another sexism issue" to be ignored or derided. That's unfair. Hopefully, we can sort through the muck and get to the real meat. Right now it's a shotgun approach to talking about this; we really need a scalpel.

And I apologize. I certainly don't mean to lump you in to anything. I forget that this system sometimes attaches responses to multiple people, especially since I don't get any type of notifications for when my own name is attached to multiple responses. I was purely talking about that one paragraph written by Darji.

Here this is how you criticize a game for its content. First of all you do not in the review and secondly you do not accuse anyone. Also you explain why it might offed or can make people a bit uncomfortable without taking the right of the artist away to do what he wanted to.

But warning if you still play GTA since this spoilers a scene half way i think into the game. .

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-16-is-the-most-disturbing-scene-in-gta5-justified

i like when someone creates a thread for discussion, then proceeds to praise and acknowledge seriously only the statements that agree with their views. don't bother paying lip service to trying to see the opposite side in that case, i'd say.

I think the problem is how in the holy hell did anyone screaming about sexism in this games case not immediately bust into flames upon missing the chance to call out all the crime, violence and outright debauchery that the series is known for present in this game.

Hell, it's almost a nod for women that there isn't a chick doing all the things the three amigos are doing in this game.

@jadegl: Yeah, I'm in no way advocating that people at conventions should expect to be groped or harassed (though if you cosplay, it stands to reason people will look at you), or at very least, shouldn't expect that without retributive justice. And we do have that, there are codes of conduct and there are avenues to go through. So I tend to be upset when these channels are ignored in favor of twittering. Or when the channels are used, the situation is resolved, but it's still considered a problem because it happened in the first place. Which is what you see a lot, or people leaping to guilty-until-proven-innocent. But that usually has more to do with people's social intelligence than it does gender ideology.

The problem I've always had with gender ideologues is that they have a preference in what they want, and they're free to look for it where they want and not like things that don't fit their preferences... but that's never good enough. Everyone else needs to also have their preferences, and if you don't have their preferences, if you like X or Y or Z and they do not, then you're damaging women. It's not that they say "I think slutty party girls are boring I don't like them", it's that they say "slutty party girls in fiction damage women". I can understand and even maybe get behind the former phrase (though if she's portrayed really accurately I might appreciate it for verisimilitude), but the latter has nothing to do with subjectivity, it has to do with stigmatizing other people until they do what you want. I've never been able to tolerate being told what I should and shouldn't like, especially when it in no way hurts others. I find that attitude impossible to differentiate from some folk who believe that since they don't like gay sex, gay and bi people shouldn't like gay sex, and since they don't like it and gay people continue to have gay sex, then gay sex are damaging straight people with all their fiendish gay sex. And creating any entertainment that has gay sex is uniquely damaging them.

My position was never that people are wrong to want more female characters, or more diversity, or want anything really. But when they don't get what they want and attempt to prevent other people from getting what they want by throwing around claims of ethical or criminal wrongdoing on the creator or audience's part, it stops being about them making choices for themselves and becomes them bullying others into doing what they want. I don't want modern military shooters or boys-love VNs, and I'm entitled to that, but when I attempt to say "modern military shooters cause violent crime and therefore they shouldn't exist" or "boys-love VNs cause rape and therefore they shouldn't exist", that's not me making a choice for myself, that's me stigmatizing and shaming in order to get rid of things other people like.

And I wasn't saying you lumped me in with Darji, I was just asking that I not be, just in case. I can defend my own assertions, but rarely other people's.

Personally, I don't care, though it'd be a nice change of pace to get a girl character in a game like this. However, people who think that the only way for games to be more gender inclusive is to actively call out the devs who do not make any attempts in that direction are justified in doing so. If developers feel that their next game will be better reviewed (and especially purchased) due to a more inclusive character demography, they'll do it.

The journalistic activism does get on my nerves, though, especially from men. Let the women campaign for what women need. They have words and platforms with which to use them. You don't need to put any in their mouths; it comes across as patronizing and portrays women as thin-skinned and incapable of laughing at themselves.

The entire concept of a violent crime game is generally something that appeals more to males. Sure they could made stronger female characters, would it have made the game sell better? Absolutely not. Despite what people would like to believe, hardcore gaming is still a made up mostly males. Its amazing how much gaming journalism has started to focus on the social and political aspects of games. Why is it wrong for a game to target a specific audience? Nobody would complain if a game was specifically targeted at women. Instead of complaining about it all the time why doesn't somebody do something about it? My guess is because their isnt a developer confortable enough to make a game, and not enough people to support it.

Perhaps one of the most frustrating aspects of this entire debate is how disingenuous the whole "what, why can't we talk about women being in more video games?" line of thought gets the more and more we keep having that exact argument. Because it presents itself as if it is a victimized line of argument, as if it's not discussed at all and it just innocently wants to discuss the pros and cons of having more women in video games... when the reality is we've been having this argument over almost every fucking game for months now, and instead of being an innocent and well-meaning suggestion it instead comes off as moralizing and agenda-pushing.

For an argument that presents itself as not wanting to force equality no matter the cost, that claims it doesn't mean to suggest that stories can't have narratives that almost exclusively involve men if that's what makes the most sense, it seems to get brought up at every single opportunity regardless. At some point it raises questions about how sincere the feminists in the press, and elsewhere, really are when they present that argument with that caveat.

In fairness to feminists, they have a point about how the very medium of video games should appeal more to women. Video games in the abstract should totally try being more inclusive. Imagine reading being a hobby made up 75% by men, or something. That would be ridiculous, and it's a similar thing here. The overall art form itself should be more balanced.

Where that whole train derails is when feminists start picking at individual games, not gaming overall. Saying "video games are failing at being inclusive, and should have more women" is fair, and correct, while saying "Grand Theft Auto 5 is bad because it doesn't have many decent women" is not. GTA5 is its own separate narrative, its own world, it has its own characters, and if it makes perfect sense there are no women involved, or there are no female protagonists, or that those men fondle up strippers (guys, I hate to break it to you, but those kind of people exist in the real world) then that is completely out of bounds for some sort of ethical argument. There is nothing unethical about that, and people really have no right to suggest that the game is sexist because it presented a narrative where there just happened to be no female characters.

But, it makes for a very appealing target, and gets a lot of press by doing so. There is also no one of any stature that I'm aware of, in the press, that is willing to stand against that tide.

Agree so much! The weird thing that's been happening recently, though, is that the criticism has skipped over the content of the material, and has been placed on the creator themself. In '71, I'm sure there were many who thought, "Man, every woman in that movie is a literal object and I find that portrayal to be misogynistic." A totally valid point that, as you say, can be discussed with examples as critics have done for centuries.

Today, however, a person feeling the same way about A Clockwork Orange (the movie) would exclaim, "Man, Stanley Kubrick is a huge misogynist!" And I think this is a big reason why we keep having this same angry conversation that results in nothing.

No one is equipped to defend Stanley Kubrick or Rockstar or Kojima or Vanillaware or whomever may be currently under attack, because we're not them. But often because of them and their art, people have had enjoyable emotional experiences, so when they're accused of these horrible things, they feel like they're a part of what's being demonized. And since no one is then arguing about a thing you can cite or actually prove, you just end up with an instant screaming match of people who don't even really know why they're upset anymore.

Many wise folks (including yourself) keep reiterating that they'll withhold judgement until they actually see the material. Clearly the only smart thing to do. But when the press won't stop flinging insults about art yet to be released that we can't judge, we end up exactly where we are. And it sucks.

(also, I too prefer the book to the film, as long as you get rip that final "missing" chapter out! ;) )

Discussion of sexism in video games is a good thing. It's an excellent thing.

One of the best things about it is watching angry boys slowly, very slowly, grow up.

That wasn't disturbing at all. No sarcasm. I don't see how it's any different from running over random people escaping from the cops or testing your new gun on a pedestrian.

Sexism is like, bad and stuff

Ironic that you highlight precisely why these discussions are far from excellent or a good thing.

This bit from Matt Bozon (of Wayforward) pretty much sums up my thoughts on this topic from here on out. Coming from a creator, talking about why the character is going to be the gender they built the game for. In this case, Shantae's a female because they built the game for her. At 1:21:30, if the time thing doesn't work.

While other games are built for a male protagonist. I feel like it's up to the developer to decide what they want to do.

games aint never changing.

I'm more upset at the sexism in Madden football. Why can't I pick a team from the Lingerie League?

I think the reading/novel thing is an apt comparison, because you can look at a time when reading was 75% men. Most reading was done by men, and was about men. Better education standards got women literate, and once you start human development, humans want to keep developing. If you went based on the current tact of today's feminists, you'd think the strategy in 1800 would be "make the men stop writing books the way they do and write them 'for women'". Instead it was Jane Austen writing books that she wanted to read, and that (apparently) women wanted to read. At no point was it up to Walter Scott to 'make something that women could enjoy or be a misogynist', he just made whatever it was he wanted to make. And that's better, I actually like Jane Austen more than Walter Scott, but I wouldn't be there throwing abuse at Ivanhoe because I wanted it to be Pride & Prejudice... I'd just go enjoy Pride & Prejudice. Or something else. The world isn't so small.

To that end, I'm pretty sure that the market for books is now leaning in a majority for women. But I don't necessarily think books need to do anything to include men. I think men are capable of deciding what they want, and if it's not books, then it's not books. I see no reason to treat women any differently. If it is books with a slight twist or difference that hooks them (????) then make those, but 50 Shades of Grey doesn't have to change to 'get men into books'. Ironically, the books that used to be for 'losery virginal neckbeards' are now most read by women.

And this is the thing, I actively want there to be games that fit any market that wants them. I want awesome Obsidian roleplaying games to dominate the market, but I realize they're never going to sell like Call of Duty, so they're never going to get the budget that Call of Duty has, and you know what, I've made my peace with it. That's how market economics work, but it also means that I'm part of a small but dedicated niche who will receive games of proportionate budget; Project Eternity. If women want 'womanly games' (of which I couldn't possibly begin to imagine what that means), support games or game developers that are pushing in that direction. I don't personally think Gone Home is much to write home about (because I'm currently looking for new takes on gameplay) but if that's what someone wants, create demand and supply will appear. That's how markets work. And that will get women the kind of games they like, whatever those actually are, I don't know. But attempting to use claims of damage caused by 'too many menz' in the market will not result in anything they want being created. The best they might get, if they're successful, is effectively changing whatever their target is to the point that the original audience doesn't want it anymore... then they'll move onto something they do want, and the crusade continues in another venue.

GTA games draw inspiration from classic movies, well this one does at least, and I can't think of many films in which the female protagonist goes around committing criminal activities, and to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure there have been many of these women in real life either.

<------------------------------------------------ !!!

No it was not really disturbing and I do not agree with him but I posted this because this is how you crticize nothing else. He never accused the game or the developer of something but rather tried to explain why it COULD be offensive for people. In all these discussions about GTA V no one ever did that. They just throw shit like Misogyny and sexsim in it and then think it is fine.

@marokai Why should it appeal to more women? In our society there are a lot of things that is more for one gender than for the other. For example. Work: nurses are very female dominated field while construction is a very male dominated field and there is nothing wrong with it. Also just because you change the character into a female does not mean it will automatically bought by more women. Many games with strong female characters fail sales wise. Instead of changing games you should add more games but if these are not successful they will not continue it. It is a industry that wants to earn money after all. Games are not a place where you make ethically and moral statements they serve a market.

But seriously, people are still talking about that simple “being masculine was so key to the story” explanation in this thread? I expected this thread to have gone in a very different direction by now.

Have none of you heard what is said on the talk radio station? Because if essentially saying "masculinity was important to the story" sent some feminists into a blogging rage, that is going to make their heads explode.

Radio spoilers:

It's on The Fernando Show, where he's interviewing a liberal, politically correct, feminist politician. She is exposed for being a hypocrite, accuses a female caller of misogyny because the caller doesn't agree with her, belittles others to feed her self-righteous ego, tells other people how they should think, accuses the male host of hating women when he confesses that he's attracted to her, and believes that all women should unite to live their lives according to her specific opinion of how women should live their lives.

don't fucking care. won't ever fucking care.

that's not a video game

Funny thing. I saw the shoe icon on the map and figured it was a store to buy shoes, turns out it was a strip club.

Y'all think its real important to make sure that nothing is ever sexist ever, and that if it is, people don't talk about it because my video games

Where is the controversy about the pole dance sequences in GTA V?

Apparently the outrage is only with japanese games. Western games are okay.

How is this a controversy? What controversy?

Haha, yeah me too! Then I saw it had the big canopy and I went "that's probably not a shoe store."

Oh you mean the lapdance where you can touch the dancer. Yeah I mentioned it here once and how its more aggressive than in Killer is dead. But hey let these racist reviewers and gaming people do their own thing.

or don't. I didn't see any outrage. Maybe it's just reserved for japanese games.