• 189 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
#1 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

Looks like we found another victim. So while people think it is totally fine shooting women in COD about about rape scenes? Personally I do not mind if its in context of the world and story. So I can not say much about it yet. But I hope he will not cut it out due to pressure.

Here is the full article.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/424642/anger-over-rape-scene-in-hotline-miami-2/

So what does Giantbomb think about this?

#2 Edited by Kaiserreich (690 posts) -

Murder people in most graphic fashion = good (as long as they are men)

Simulated rape ("After the incident, a director apparently shouts "cut") = bad

#3 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

Here is the footage for anyone interested. WOW. That is really harmless.

In fact this is a perfect image how Americans and the movie industries morals are in my opinion. Actually pretty good.

#4 Posted by Demoskinos (14733 posts) -

I think you're playing as a scumbag psychopathic murderer and rape wouldn't be out of his wheelhouse of un-savory crimes. I don't know what people really expect here. The point IS to make US the bad guy make you feel despicable about doing it. Its basically throwing the damsel in distress trope on its head here. Were not the brave hero running in to save the damsel we are the scumbag who is committing the vile acts against her.

#5 Edited by JasonR86 (9653 posts) -

The lady who played the game is free to react that way and I imagine she won't be alone. But, in terms of severity and context, much worse has been in film. And in the end people vote with their money. If people don't like this in games don't buy the product.

Online
#6 Posted by Demoskinos (14733 posts) -

Let me point out the first game kept asking us over and over and over.

DO YOU LIKE HURTING PEOPLE.

Its a game about playing with humanities darker side making us be the fucking awful person here and making us deal with it.

#7 Edited by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@darji said:

So while people think it is totally fine shooting women in COD about about rape scenes?

You do realize there's a thread specifically about people feeling uncomfortable about shooting up women in COD, right?

#8 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@jasonr86: Yeah totally agree. But sometimes to this pressure developer will change things. For example it was first possible to murder old people in GTA3 and the thing with flying into a Skyscraper as well. Which were all cut due to outside pressure.

@video_game_king Yeah COD player but not the people here.

#9 Edited by Brodehouse (9792 posts) -

This has less to do with the feminism arguments and more to do with just simply whether people actually view games as art or still view them as children's toys. The game is about as M as any game I've ever seen, it's hyper-violent and clearly not for those of weak constitution. But we accept it because we realize it's art and this is the story/game the developer is making. But when you add sex into it? We can't have this kind of filth available! Never mind that every other art medium has dealt with the topic of sexual violence. In other art forms, dealing with rape (or rape fantasy/snuff film/I don't know?) is common, and we judge based on how it's done in the actual art, not on our politics or whatever social bent we have at the moment.

Pillorying this game because it includes rape in some fashion is no different than pillorying The Accused, or basically all of French cinema, because they include rape in their narrative. Hell, the Song of Ice and Fire books include real rape, attempted rape, rape fantasy, and frank conversations about rape.

#10 Posted by AlexanderSheen (4966 posts) -

Wasn't the whole point of the first game was to make you feel like the worst fucking garbage in the World? That being said, this fits the theme.

On top of that: the scene isn't trying to glorify the act in any way, the camera almost immediately cuts away too.

#11 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

This has less to do with the feminism arguments and more to do with just simply whether people actually view games as art or still view them as children's toys. The game is about as M as any game I've ever seen, it's hyper-violent and clearly not for those of weak constitution. But we accept it because we realize it's art and this is the story/game the developer is making. But when you add sex into it? We can't have this kind of filth available! Never mind that every other art medium has dealt with the topic of sexual violence. In other art forms, dealing with rape (or rape fantasy/snuff film/I don't know?) is common, and we judge based on how it's done in the actual art, not on our politics or whatever social bent we have at the moment.

Pillorying this game because it includes rape in some fashion is no different than pillorying The Accused, or basically all of French cinema, because they include rape in their narrative. Hell, the Song of Ice and Fire books include real rape, attempted rape, rape fantasy, and frank conversations about rape.

This is one step this industry needs to take to grow up. Not everything has to be children friendly and full of happiness.

#13 Edited by stryker1121 (1394 posts) -

@brodehouse: But Song of Ice and Fire, etc, are not interactive experiences. There's no "Irreversible: The Game." That said, in context of an "in-game movie scene," I don't think the Hot Line Miami example is that bad.

#14 Posted by MattyFTM (14366 posts) -

There is a key difference between rape and violence in video games. In video games, violence is generally a counter to other violence. People are trying to kill you, you have to kill them in order to stay alive yourself. Even if you initiated it, you're generally fighting people who are bad. Or at least people who dislike your character and would like to see your character dead. You're protecting yourself from death, by killing other people. Violence against violence.

Sexual violence is different to how violence is usually portrayed in video games. It is a person lusting for power, preying on an innocent victim. That is a very different context to other violence in video games. A player character committing an actual rape in a game would be totally unacceptable.

But in this instance, we know that in Hotline Miami 2 it is presented as a movie scene, it's not actual rape but an actor and actress faking rape. But we don't know exactly how this is being framed. We don't know how clear this is made and how it appears to the player. Jumping to conclusions over this without knowing exactly how it is presented is dumb. It may be presented in an insensitive way that is intended to shock the player. On the face of it, it seems like it's being blown a little out of proportion, and the headlines are making it seem worse than it is. But we don't know enough to come to any definitive conclusion.

Moderator
#15 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@stryker1121: This is not an interactive experience either. You just press a button and watch. You do not need to hold her down via kinect and then use a motion controller to penetrate her. If movies do this they get Oscars and a lot of awards if Games do it we get such articles...

#16 Edited by JadeGL (814 posts) -

I'm of two minds. I played and finished the first game and loved it, but also found things that made me uncomfortable about it, which I think is the point. I enjoyed looking at the game as purely a set of puzzles to be solved, and the graphics were so pixelated that I really didn't internalize the violence. However, in the moments where the action was taken away from your character (during the finales to boss fights mostly) I will admit that I felt disgust with what the character was doing, again which I think was the point. I can recall very slowly gouging the eyes out of a person, and another where I very slowly pounded the persons head against the floor as red gushed out in every increasing amounts. Those gave me, as the player, a feeling of discomfort, a desire to just have the "cut scene" for lack of a better term, be over so that I wouldn't have to see the kill extended to those absurd levels. Contrasted with how quick the normal kills in the levels are, I think that it was obviously a stylistic choice meant to impress the violence upon the player, not to make the player get more enjoyment.

With something like a rape scene, I would say that the same feeling would come over me as in the violent final kills in the first game. I would feel that layer of disgust and just want the action to be over. I suppose if I assumed I would be killing the character, only to proceed to a simulated rape scene, I may feel like I wasn't getting what I expected. However, I feel like again that would be the point that the creators of the game were trying to convey, at least I hope that's the case. Without playing the whole game and seeing just what the creators have in store, I can't say what the intent is. Sure, we can see the clip of the scene, but I really want to play through the entire thing myself to see just what is going on with the narrative.

So I can understand the feeling, I suppose, but if you're coming to a Hotline Miami game you need to expect the vilest and most horrible things possible done by humans to other humans. The first game had it in spades, so I wouldn't expect a follow up to put on the kid gloves and shy away from violence and human depravity.

Moderator
#17 Edited by AlexanderSheen (4966 posts) -

@mattyftm: Just watch the video in this thread and see it for yourself.

#18 Edited by Wampa1 (634 posts) -

@mattyftm: It's even weirder this is a scene people are targeting since it get's almost.. meta. The Director telling her to act vulnerable and scared then directly equating that with "girly" while encouraging the player to be more violent is pretty clearly trying to say something.

#19 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@jadegl: That is the point you need to feel disgusted by it. And I am pretty sure in the end game you will rape someone for "real" later to add more shock value but that is totally fine in my opinion. Disgust is another emotion games can express more than any other media and I think everything need to be explored to grow as media and art.

@MattyFTM There are also a lot of games in which you are playing an asshole GTA is just one of these examples. You do not fight for survival. Same with games like postal. You are just an asshole doing shit. So no it is not different.

#20 Edited by Jeust (10541 posts) -

Well in a world where Kratos rips eye bulbs, this isn't really news worthy. Where are the real limits to violence in video games? You can kill indiscriminatly but rape is off the table?! Get your morals together!

#21 Edited by Ghostiet (5242 posts) -

@demoskinos said:

Let me point out the first game kept asking us over and over and over.

DO YOU LIKE HURTING PEOPLE.

Its a game about playing with humanities darker side making us be the fucking awful person here and making us deal with it.

Thank you, sometimes I feel like there's maybe five people in the entire world who understood what this fucking game is actually about.

I'll only add that the game is actively fucking with the player so he'll enjoy the carnage more through the visuals, music, fast gameplay with instant restarts. Not to mention that the default ending is deliberately unfulfilling, just so the player can be robbed of receiving a satisfying justification for all the atrocities he has committed.

#22 Posted by Cirdain (3046 posts) -

@darji said:

In fact this is a perfect image how Americans and the movie industries morals are in my opinion. Actually pretty good.

Agreed!

#23 Posted by flindip (533 posts) -
#24 Posted by jimmy_p (278 posts) -

Speaking of vile things, bitching and stirring shit up isnt worthwhile journalism

#25 Posted by probablytuna (3604 posts) -

Isn't the point of that scene meant to make us feel disgusted by what's happening?

#26 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

you're the one who keeps bringing this shit up. Would anyone have brought it up had you not posted about it? I doubt it, considering the posts in this thread. People have differing opinions, some people don't like it because they or someone they know have been raped before and well are you really going to argue that they should just grin and bear it?

for the record, I don't care.

#27 Posted by Milkman (16619 posts) -

@jimmy_p: Expressing an opinion (a perfectly valid and understandable opinion at that) is not "bitching." Any article that goes against your world view and beliefs isn't just trying to "stir up shit."

#28 Edited by flindip (533 posts) -

@animasta: No, if its a trigger for them: don't buy the game. Problem solved. I can't speak for ones individual reaction.

#29 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

also OP if you think that he'd cut a rape scene out of a game then you haven't played Norrland. That game was twice as fucked up as hotline miami was

#30 Posted by Dallas_Raines (2146 posts) -

Art can invoke positive and negative emotions, people are allowed to be offended. Film critics can let their disgust of A Serbian Film's content show through in their review, as the whole purpose of that film is to be disgusting at an inhuman level. Criticism and discussion is a major part of what makes art, art. It doesn't hurt it.

#31 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@animasta: That game has nothing to do with women so it is totally fine. And I do not see anything disgusting on a youtube lets play. It is stupid and awful but disgusting? Not really. Also it is a bit different how big the game is. Hotline Miami was a success story and now everyone is waiting for the sequel. Again GTA3 did also cut stuff due to outside pressure.

#32 Posted by flindip (533 posts) -

@dallas_raines: I agree that its totally fine. The only problem is when that criticism starts veering into censorship whether legislative or a plea for self imposing.

#34 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@flindip said:

@dallas_raines: I agree that its totally fine. The only problem is when that criticism starts veering into censorship whether legislative or a plea for self imposing.

Yeah that is the problem here.

I feel resentment. This is what those hordes of gamers who constantly hound the academic Anita Sarkeesian, creator of Tropes vs Women in Video Games barrage her mailbox with. Whelps of wretched stomach lining. This is how they feel when someone points out that games are sexist. ‘This is it,’ I think. ‘I am feeling betrayal. I feel betrayed by something I love. I feel betrayed.’

From the original article.

#35 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7074 posts) -

Surprise: Rape is a touchy subject!

And, as @dallas_raines said, if you want games to be considered art, you need to learn to take the criticism with the praise. Art's sole purpose is to cause an emotional response. Being surprised or angry that a scene, simulating the shooting and raping of a woman, did just that is silly.

#36 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@darji said:

@animasta: That game has nothing to do with women so it is totally fine. And I do not see anything disgusting on a youtube lets play. It is stupid and awful but disgusting? Not really. Also it is a bit different how big the game is. Hotline Miami was a success story and now everyone is waiting for the sequel. Again GTA3 did also cut stuff due to outside pressure.

Norrland is still way more deeply fucked up and if he was doing Norrland 2 in much the same way it'd also create controversy.

Again, literally no one in this topic has a problem with it. and if they do? they don't buy it. He's not a team of 60 trying to make the biggest game possible with the best possible profit margins.

#37 Posted by Brodehouse (9792 posts) -

For the record, I may have a problem with it, but I'll judge when I can actually play it as intended and come to my own conclusion. I won't have a problem with it merely because it appears.

#38 Posted by Raethen (180 posts) -

Please actually read this article. It is fairly short, maybe a 15 minute read at most. I get a distinct feeling there are a lot of comment being made without actually reading such a short piece, which I know isn't unusual for the internet.

Cara, the author, brings up nearly every point that has been made here about violence vs sexual violence, and why she is uncomfortable with the rape. She even addresses the director yelling, "Cut," and how for her it came too late because the feelings had already set in. She is very good at conveying her feeling and why she has them in the second half of the article, just above the third image until the end. If you read just one part, that is the part you should read. You can disagree with her view point, that is fine, you are entitled to that, but she is also entitled to her own views, and just because you think she is wrong, does not mean she is, just as you may not be either.

I saw no anger in her words, but I can see how some may, but only if they are looking for it to fit their own agenda. There is disgust, and dismay. Disgust because of the act she didn't just witness, but because she was in control of the character before the scene, she feels she caused. Dismay, because she enjoyed herself up until that point, and loved the first game, but is now conflicted about ever it all. She is far better at explaining it than, I as they are her feelings on the game. As pointed out above, the second half of the article is where they are expressed, quite eloquently in my opinion.

It is a well written article, and everyone should read it, and give them the view, because even if you don't agree with her words, that is fine, she is giving her perspective. And it is articles like these, that critique the medium as an art form that is consumed, that help our industry grown from childrens' toys to an art that can be enjoyed for all, despite its faults. Because many articles like these, are not about censoring games, but showing how complex they can be, and how they can elicit complex emotions such as disgust. They are written with the hope that other complex emotions will be explored, ones that aren't off putting to what could be a large number of people. Sure there are some that do this for click bait, much like some articles I've seen linked from Kotaku, but this article is not even close to being one of them. This is one woman's honest, and conflicted, feelings towards a game, and I would love to see more games writing like this, that express how games can effect a person.

#39 Posted by cmblasko (1179 posts) -

I wish I had the mental prowess to properly explain why I feel weird about rape being depicted in a video game even though I have probably killed tens of thousands of virtual characters in my life.

Regardless, I probably won't play Hotline Miami 2 despite really enjoying the original.

#41 Posted by LiquidPrince (15902 posts) -

It's getting to the point where you can't have any sort of sexuality in video games, one way or another, without it being criticized by games press. Seriously, please shut up. If something makes sense in context of the story, then it's fine. You're supposed to feel like a scumbag in Hotline Miami.... and you do.

#42 Posted by Rainbowkisses (472 posts) -

I can certainly understand people having a negative reaction to this, since this is a very sensitive subject. The thing about the scene is that does have a meta-commentary to it. Where the game is critiquing it's own sensationalist attempt to show the worst of the worst by showing how strange and twisted the whole idea can really be.

Whether the inclusion at even the suggestion of a rape scene is necessary depends on whether you think it serves a purpose to the game as a whole. Plenty of people have made the valid point that Hotline Miami is meant to be disturbing. Even the original game's boxart was a dark, twisted version of classic video game boxart like Double Dragon 2. The question is whether the viewer thinks it's enough for something to be disturbing for the sake of it or whether it needs to have some deeper message to validate it's inclusion.

I think as far as the basic violence in the game goes, Hotline Miami does a great job of pointing out how strange and disturbing it is that so much of our entertainment revolves around the horrific act of violence. I can understand someone thinking that it's hypocritical in it's criticism and that is certainly a point worth discussing.

I feel that if this was simply a rape scene, and not a staged scene that I would be better able to understand people's outrage. This isn't because it' "less real" but because it shows how the entertainment industry can exploit such a sensitive subject with little reason other than shock value.

I kind of view this as an indirect critique of the type of mentality that lead to suggested rape scene in the latest Tomb Raider. Sure, a situation like that is bound to happen, but I personally feel that if you are going to touch upon the subject of rape it can't just be for shock value. That scene could have easily been replaced with something less controversial to invoke the feeling of fear in the player. It's a game where you kill people all throughout, but unlike the rape scene, that part of the game can not be easily replaced, unless you want a game where you shoot and hit them with magic sleepy dust.

#43 Posted by gaminghooligan (1434 posts) -

Watched the video to see the scene in question, stayed for the whole thing. It looks like the rape and the way that it's handled are meant to represent the overall theme of violence fascination that remains for the rest of that demo. I mean how is that fake rape worse than the guys beating the dude to death at the end of the demo? Seems like anyone that has a problem with the the scene in question might be missing the point of these games entirely.

Side Note: Holy shit you guys that music.....

#44 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

It's getting to the point where you can't have any sort of sexuality in video games, one way or another, without it being criticized by games press. Seriously, please shut up. If something makes sense in context of the story, then it's fine. You're supposed to feel like a scumbag in Hotline Miami.... and you do.

the author of the PC gamer article says SHE feels disturbed by it. She never spoke for a larger audience, merely that she felt it was over the top and she didn't like it.

I don't agree, but she writes well enough that hey, if she felt uncomfortable by it, who are we to judge? Plus it's Cara Ellison, yo, who is one of the best games writers in the biz

#45 Edited by Raethen (180 posts) -

@rainbowkisses: She addresses that in her article though. She understands and knows what the game is trying to do, but she already had shifted her view point to that of empathizing with the woman being raped as opposed to the character she was once in control of. Her feeling set in before the director cut in. That is why she shows some very conflicted emotions towards the end of the piece.

#46 Edited by spraynardtatum (2798 posts) -

For the record, I may have a problem with it, but I'll judge when I can actually play it as intended and come to my own conclusion. I won't have a problem with it merely because it appears.

Yeah, that's how I see it too. This reminds me of how Tomb Raider was judged before people even saw the scene in question. It turned out to not be that bad and was a pretty defining moment of Lara and the game.

Hopefully they handle it with care. I'll judge it when I see it.

#47 Edited by notdavid (836 posts) -

Yo. You don't get to decide what other people are offended by. It's cool if you're not offended by it yourself, but you have no say over how it makes others feel, and their needs should hold the same weight as yours. So stop doing that.

#48 Edited by Darji (5294 posts) -

@raethen: It was supposed to be a preview of a game not a blog post or editorial. This is stuff you should not do and no one would ever do in a movie preview or by reading the first 50 pages of a book etc. Again be disgusted as you want to be. Have an opinion be it positive or negative but don't do it in a preview or review. If you can not handle it don't preview it.

#49 Posted by flindip (533 posts) -

@notdavid: Yeah, that is exactly the point. You can be offended as much as you want. Its when people demand that I(others) be offended as well...

I am not saying that author of the piece is doing that btw...

#50 Edited by Milkman (16619 posts) -

Okay, first off, starting a thread about rape with "Looks like we found another victim" is pretty gross. As for the actual scene, here's the problem I see. People in this thread are absolutely right that Hotline Miami's goal in this scene is to make you feel like shit. The sequence starts with killing of defenseless people. It makes you feel bad but also these have no sort of sexual or gender connotation attached to it. It's just murder. It's makes no difference what gender the player character is. Then the rape happens and for a male player, it's just a further moment of victimization that makes you, again, feel like a piece of shit. But for a women player here (or for some women players, I'm sure there will be some who can look right past this), suddenly the script is being flipped, the immersion is broken and you are the one being victimized. I can totally see how that could upset someone beyond what the game intended.

There's really no easy answer to this and anyone here saying "it's simple just blahblahblah" or whatever is a liar. I don't think the author of this article is in anyway trying to say "BOYCOTT THIS SICK FILTH" at all. She's simply expressing her feelings about a video game. If anything, it's a compliment to games that they are even beginning to spark these kind of feelings and set off these discussions. Anyone trying to silence that in anyway is just holding the medium back.