Why are there no trolls or wargs?

Both are a huge part of the lore and should be everywhere in mordor, but they were replaced with other things that are similar but different. Why? Seems pointless to replace iconic things that exist there in the lore with brand new things that are nearly the same but different enough to notice.

I wondered the same thing. Although, I don't remember wargs being in Mordor in the movies, they were used by the orcs that came from Isengard, but I'm not sure I saw any Mordor orcs using them. Trolls seem like an obvious one, though. At least in the movies, they're shown being in Mordor.

I really need to get around to reading those books.

The creature design (as well as a certain character) struck me as very "non-Tolkien", but it wasn't until a moment late in the game when wargs are mentioned that it really hit me how stupid it is. There's absolutely no reason why the Caragors couldn't have been wargs and Graugs couldn't have been trolls. In fact it almost seems like the whole hunting part of the game was developed for some other game and shoehorned in.

I've not played the game, but what strikes me as weirdest about this is that those names sound like how when people write dark, gritty fantasies, they give everything different names to differentiate themselves from Tolkein (They're not orcs, they're darkspawn, etc)

The original names didn't focus-test well with Chad Facecrunch and his friends, I suppose.

I really wish publishers would stop their marketing people from meddling with things that obviously don't affect the sales of the game. The average consumer won't know whether they're called trolls or cargoholds or anything else until they've bought the game, and it's too late then.

I haven't played the game yet (super excited to get it later this year though) but yeah, it seems super weird that they replaced trolls and wargs. They were definitely still in mordor in the movies, and there's no reason they couldn't do it, so it's just a really weird design choice. Maybe they wanted Mordor to have it's own unique ecosystem? I also suppose both wargs and trolls were domesticated/trained by orcs, so maybe they wanted purely wild creatures, but that's a terrible explanation.

In any case, it sounds like an area they could expand into for the sequel. You could have orcs that ride wargs be a part of the nemesis system, or orcs with troll bodyguards.

Licensing?

Evidence is everywhere apparantly.

Or not, I dunno.

But doubt the developers did it just for kicks. Maybe they wanted you to see something new rather than the same enemies in every Lotr game the last decade? :S

@brackstone: Tolkien gave Mordor its own ecosystem. That's the weird thing about the devs seemingly making these arbitrary replacements.

Wait there arnt trolls? What was the big fucker who killed me in the first five minutes then? He seemed like a troll to me.

Maybe the Uruk's didn't start domesticating them in this period between The Hobbit and Fellowship? Isn't it like an 80 year gap or so between those two stories? The way that the game places itself I'm guessing its set a few years after the Hobbit, since Gollum is hanging around Mordor and the area that Bilbo found the ring was in the northern area of the Misty Mountains, whereas the Black Gate is in the southern region of Middle Earth.

Course I haven't read the Silmarillion or any of the Lost Tales, so I'm just guessing here.

It probably has to do with the licencing. There are two licences that exist in regard to the franchise one for the literature of the hobbit and the LOTR, and one for the movies. This game has the literature license. Apparently the license for the movies means that any likenesses that exist in the movies cannot be reproduced in games with the lit license. Alexa Ray Corriea wrote an extensive piece that examined the tiptoeing that devs have had to do while making Tolkien games. After reading that, I'm highly impressed that any good videogame has been produced under such constraining contracts.

DLC

They couldn't get the license.

@rollingzeppelin: The exact movie Gollum is in the game.

Yup, that's probably it. The Tolkien estate is pretty infamous for this stuff. I recommend for everyone who's interested in this to read that Polygon article, good stuff.

If this game has the literature license, how did they manage to get the Gollum from the movies in there? Same look, using a soundalike channeling Serkis' performance directly, everything is exactly the same. Is it possible that they may have licensed him separately?

Trolls typically couldn't survive sunlight. I don't remember if in the books Sauron bred some that could as they did in the movies, but it's possible that hadn't occurred yet at the time of the game.

Is this why they call the Orcs "Uruks?"

It's been a while since I read the books and even then I didn't like them so my memory is hazy.

I don't think so. There's a part in the beginning when Talion's son says something about the "Orcs" and Talion tells him they're not Orcs, they're "Uruks".

I was confused hearing them say Uruks in all the pre-release coverage, because I thought that the Uruk-hai were the creatures Saruman bred (which is true), but apparently Sauron bred Uruks first.

They're basically "greater" orcs, not just regular orcs renamed because of legal whatevers.

Something about this doesn't match up. If WB Games has the literature license, then they should be able to use anything that appears in the books. But Warner Bros. proper owns New Line, which produced the Lord of the Rings movies, so wouldn't it follow that they'd have access to the movie license and not the literature license? Because if they had the literature license, why would they go to the trouble of creating made-up stand-ins for creatures that exist in the books? Of course, LOTR licensing is incredibly complex, so I wouldn't be surprised if I'm just badly misunderstanding the situation in every way.

Yeah I think I'm mistaken. I think Monolith had access to both the movie and book licenses but they did not have access to the "Legendarium" literature. So in that case, I have no idea why they didn't include wargs or trolls. Maybe they wanted to give the Mordor armies a unique character with its own, different units?

Both wargs and trolls are "domesticated" by Sauron's army, right? It could be that they're not included because the indigenous wildlife of Mordor would cause trouble for their pets, so they wanted to clear them out before they moved in their more "expensive" units.

Or maybe Monolith took a big wet poop on the lore. I don't know. Shanking the Uruks is real cool.

@rollingzeppelin: Licensing deals get weird, and it's impossible to tell how they work unless somebody tells, but this game does reek of tiptoeing the licensing line. Considering that there are LOTR books, LOTR movies, Hobbit books, Hobbit movies and "extended universe" content, I don't even dare to guess how all that stuff breaks down.

It almost feels like this game is excluding anything from either film except Gollum, and the book tie-in stuff is definitely apendices/Silmarilion-ish. Sauron is apparently coming out as DLC at some point, too... but I wonder if it'll be the armoured-up version from the films or not. In cutscenes for the game he is either pointedly absent and shown to be interacting with Celebrimbor by proxy (in stuff that he was supposed to do in the books, I think, Tolkien-heads may prove me wrong) or shown in the shadows and obscured.

I guess I have a related question since it has to do with naming, is there any difference between orcs and uruks? I saw one review that said the enemies aren't just orcs, but uruks, and apparently the main character distinguishes the two. So is uruk just the black speech name for orcs, or is monolith getting fancy again and these are supposed to be some other kind of super orc, though distinct from the uruk-hai (I at least know who they are).

@brackstone: Uruks are basically larger and stronger orcs. I don't think there's a distinction between Uruk and Uruk-hai. They weren't created by Monolith.

If there are creatures in the game that already fullfill the role, to the point that something as easy as giving them a different name without changing anything about them would be sufficient, then this just seems like kind of a petty complaint. Why aren't trolls and wargs in the game? Because caragors and grougs are there already. No point in being redundant. The last thing this game needs is an obligation to fullfill more fanservice, that's the reason the awful Gollum bits were worked into the game. Yeah they could have had wargs instead of caragors in every other cage, and they could have had a troll show up about half the time instead of a graug, but that woulda been a good number of extra months in work, especially if they wanted to make trolls distinct(as they are in the books are films) in the way orcs are. That might be the real reason behind it, trolls are individually distinct, requiring yet another giant randomizing system of traits like the orcs, and graugs can just be 1 or 2 model variants.

@noelveiga: Well, never mind. Sauron's "movie look" is totally in the game, so at least they have the rights to that on top of Gollum, for sure.

Yeah, I don't see it being a conflicting license, given WB's recent LEGO games were a 1-to-1 adaptation of the Jackson films. There's no wiki page for either of these creatures, either. Maybe it's a translation into Black Speech? Shit, I don't know; I'm out of my depth here.

This is off topic, but while there's a bunch of Lord of The Rings people around someone should explain what the distinction is between Goblins, Orcs, and Uruk Hai, because I always found this very confusing. Also I remember they mentioned something about half-man orcs in the books or something like that, are those a whole other thing, or one of those 3 things?

That's a fair reason. Trolls also couldn't be around during the day in the game, or they'd all turn to stone.

I could be wrong but from what I remember orcs are basically genetically mutated or "fallen" elves. The Uruk-hai are the equivalent but they stem from men instead of elves. They tend to be a lot beefier and smarter than the average orc. I'm not sure what the origin of the goblin is but I believe they are a distinct race from the other two and they prefer to live underground rather than on the surface. I think orcs and goblins are damaged by sunlight and so only come out at night while Uruk-hai don't have this weakness and can move about in the daylight unharmed.

I think the half-man orcs are the Uruk-hai.

@hunter5024: My limited understanding is that "goblin" is the English translation of the word "orc" that Tolkien mostly used in The Hobbit. So orcs and goblins are the same thing, I think. But some adaptions have shown orcs and goblins as being different but related things. Goblins are usually the small and agile ones, while orcs are the big, heavy, tough ones. And the Uruk-hai are orcs who were bred to be even bigger, heavier, and tougher than normal orcs. Again, very limited understanding. Hopefully someone will correct me if I'm completely off here.

@rollingzeppelin: gollum (gollem?) is in the game and identicle to the movie version. I guess the liscenses could be just odd enough to allow for a gollum who looks just like the one from the movies, but either way I'm just adding another oddity to the help with the theorizing

So it seems like there was no licensing issues, they just wanted the game to be something seperate from the movies.

Actually, I think this is pretty accurate. I get the impression this was retconed to some degree. I believe in The Hobbit (book), unless memory is totally failing me, Orcs were never mentioned. Then, they're suddenly the dominating force in Lords of The Rings. I think between the movies and games, this was explained as the Goblins, which were somewhat significant in The Hobbit, being a different species than Orc - though I'm not convinced that was the original intent. Goblins kind of become this cave dwelling race while Orcs are the cannon fodder for Sauron's army. Unless I'm not remembering some chunks of the books (totally possible), I think they were originally meant to be the same thing. Uruk are a different thing altogether, but I can't remember exactly what the line in the book says about them. They're bred by Sauron though, specifically to be badass.

None of the changes to the modern version of this universe really bother me at all. While I've always been extremely open to adaptation, here I actually think they've made some great improvements. Then again, I'm one of the weirdos who doesn't like Tolkien's writing very much.

Technically there's Olog-hai, but I don't think there's any conclusive evidence that they were definitely around at this point in the timeline either.

If I remember right, the entry in the lore codex thing says the big monsters are related to trolls and resistant to sunlight.

There's conclusive evidence that they didn't because they only started appearing during the battles that are in the books and this is set before those.

Actually the reason they use caragores instead of wargs is explained in the game...

You've pretty much got it.

Orcs, Goblins and Uruks are all different breeds of the same race.

Uruk is the singular Uruk-hai is the plural, in the same way as Orc and Orc-kind (although sometimes Uruk-hai is used for all "Orc-like" beings).

Orcs > corrupted elves

SInce the retcon Goblins are thought to be either corrupted Dwarves or Hobbits.

Uruks are are Orcs bred with humans and are sometimes called "Half-Orcs" or "Men-Orcs"

I think the point is that if Wargs and Trolls already exist in the lore, why weren't they put in the game in the first place instead of reinventing them as entirely new creatures?

Are the black captains Uruks? The "hammer" looks like a some kind dark elf. Uruk-Hai don't even exist yet in the lore, right? Weren't they made by Saruman (who should probably still be good at this point)?

I thought that Saruman was already evil by the time the hobbit took place?

At one point of the game I am pretty sure it confirms that Saruman is evil.

I don't think it's fan service at all. Wargs and Trolls are things that Tolkien created, Carrigors and Graug are not.

It's like having a video game based on Harry Potter, and they go to Azkaban and it's guarded by these new creatures called Soul Wraiths. It's not fan service to want the actual, real things the author created where they should be, not replaced by a new monster for no reason. It's only fan service if they have a troll stab you in the chest and everyone thinks you're dead and suddenly you get up and go "well I had my mithril shirt on that all rangers wear!".

In the books, the trolls are as distinct from one another as Orcs and Uruks are, so hopefully it's so in the sequel there will be a hierarchy of trolls in the nemesis system too :D

It's most likely licensing issues I guess? Licensing law is confusing as fuck as far as I can tell. Don't know why this should be a problem given that it's WB games though.

No you are right. Goblins and Orcs are the same thing, Tolkien just called them Goblins in the Hobbit but changed it for everything else. There are relics you can even find in game that state how pissed off some of the Uruk's are that the battle of the Five Armies (about to be a thing in theaters) goes so badly for the Orcs. Funny, in the Hobbit books though there were no Orcs there.... just Goblins. Also you won't see "Goblins" in the movies either.

This game exists because of the movies, not because of the books. If you want the authentic book experience, the books can be found at any given library and you can bask in Tom Bombadil and Morgoth and all the other stuff the movies never really address. But everything about this game's look is feeding off the popularity of the films, and everything they choose to concentrate on is feeding on what people liked in the films, not the books. You need to divorce yourself from the source material as much as the developers of this game did. This game is based on Peter Jackson's movies, which are themselves based on the book (mostly) but also the old Ralph Bakshi LOTR rotoscoped movie, from which Jackson took the best scenes. If you're looking at the Silmarillion or some 3rd age codex or something for "factual" errors on the setting and time period of this game that's very clearly some suit going "LOTR movies + Batman + Assassin's Creed" that's kind of on you. Truth is, Tolkien never really talked about Mordor during this specific period so the idea that certain things must be there is a bit of a fallacy. This game is set here specifically so they could have artistic license.

But again, the troll thing was probably a logistics issue. They could have had the dumb looking LOTR movie trolls but probably thought people would be more interested in the much better looking Hobbit trolls and didn't have the time to do that properly, and that's probably going to be a big selling point for this game's eventual sequel.

@starvinggamer: @deegee: It's explained why they aren't Wargs and Trolls in the game....

No they are not Uruks nor any type of Orc. This is explained in in game also. As for the Uruk-hai Saruman didn't create them, he only created the Black Uruks during the War of the Ring but Morgoth had been creating Uruks for centuries before that.

Goblins are mentioned in Moria in the movie. I think they are also considered to be two sides of the same coin in the movie. The movie seems to imply that Goblins are smaller, weaker, cave dwelling orcs.

But yeah, books wise they are the same. Different cultures have different words for the same creatures. Goblins are what Hobbits call Orcs, probably because they were further separated from the spread of Orcs. Goblins are a far off legend for most Hobbits, based on whispers from the rest of Middle Earth. And I think there's some distinction to be made. Goblins seemed to me as orcs that had been separated from Sauron's forces and ended up just setting up shop in the mountains. Goblins were usually just "around" in an area, not actually working towards Sauron's goals. Same creature, different culture and purpose.

As for the fake Wargs, we never really knew their origin, did we? It's possible that the fake-wargs here are an explanation of how wargs come about. These could be young wargs, failed wargs, or just the orc word for wargs. Or, they could be the warg equivalent of Uruk-hai.

As for trolls being all over Mordor, I would expect it wouldn't be trolls exactly, but Olog-hai which are basically badass trolls that are not vulnerable to sunlight.

Keep in mind that Sauron's 'thing' is being able to twist and turn the various races of Middle Earth into new, horrific monsters. It makes sense that in the time between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings (nearly 80 years passes between them) Sauron would spend some time experimenting with new strains.

There are a lot of possible explanations. I don't need the words to be the same. And if you were expecting lore-reverence, you were just fooling yourself. That isn't going to happen with a licensed game, it just isn't.