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#1 Edited by Turambar (6776 posts) -

Before arguments over gun control breaks out, let's take a moment and marvel at how absurdly fucking brave that student had to have been to take down and disarm a guy with a shotgun that just shot a bunch of people. You want a hero in this day and age? There he is.

[MOD EDIT: Copy/pasting a long news article is just as spammy as just dropping a link. Summarize the news to provide context and drive discussion. You can provide a link to the full story for those interested - http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023778865_spushootingxml.html. As this already has generated some discussion, this thread will stay open for the time being.]

#2 Posted by AlisterCat (5559 posts) -
#3 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5428 posts) -

Sounds like a champ, though ideally he'd have done it before they managed to kill anyone like this guy. As far as it goes it wouldn't be overly hard to sneak up on most of the crazies that do this sort of thing, people just don't have the balls to do it most of the time. The guy being a christian helps, makes you less scared of dying.

#4 Edited by EXTomar (4711 posts) -

So you don't need open carry, stand your ground, and everyone heavily armed people to stop things like this? I've been lied too!

#5 Edited by Hunkulese (2717 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: It's not a videogame pal. It's petty much impossible to sneak up on someone without them noticing you, especially when they're expecting it. It had nothing to do with balls, purposely tying to get shot isn't going to help anyone.

#6 Posted by IAmNotBatman (641 posts) -

Oh a school shooting in America again? It's a good thing it's as easy as it is to get hold of a gun over there, what would they do without all of those school shootings? It would be boring as fuck.

#7 Edited by EXTomar (4711 posts) -

By writing "pretty much impossible" you mean "happens all of the time" because it turns out that the military has known and FBI statistics show it is easy to get to the drop on people when they start fighting. You know that whole "cover formation" thing is an important thing to drill into them for their safety instead of "give them something to do" or "look cool".

#8 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5428 posts) -

@hunkulese: Well you should be decrying this guy for his lack of courage or something then. Of course it's possible to sneak up on people; but ultimately if you can just get to closing distance (~10 yards) only a combat-trained person is going to be able to react in time. Most of the crazies aren't big imposing people so just getting there should be enough.

#9 Posted by Fear_the_Booboo (472 posts) -

Man how shitty it is that these things happen. Sure, crime and murder are going down and whatever but it still happens. Makes me sad all the time.

#10 Posted by Hunkulese (2717 posts) -

@extomar said:

By writing "pretty much impossible" you mean "happens all of the time" because it turns out that the military has known and FBI statistics show it is easy to get to the drop on people when they start fighting. You know that whole "cover formation" thing is an important thing to drill into them for their safety instead of "give them something to do" or "look cool".

I know it's tough to imagine but there is a slight difference between the military working as a team to flank someone and random linguistics student. There is also a big difference between fighting and slaughtering. At the point he suggested sneaking up on him there's no one threatening him to take his attention away from his surroundings.

#11 Edited by spraynardtatum (2896 posts) -

@fredchuckdave:

As far as it goes it wouldn't be overly hard to sneak up on most of the crazies that do this sort of thing, people just don't have the balls to do it most of the time.

No offense but that is a completely stupid thing to say. How the hell do you know?

#12 Posted by Hailinel (24670 posts) -

@hunkulese: That SPU is a Christian college does not mean that all of its students are Christian.

#13 Edited by UncleBenny (432 posts) -

Man, even as an apathetic gun enthusiast it's hard to argue that we don't need gun control. We are obviously not responsible enough to make sure this shit doesn't happen anymore.

But Kudos to that Jon Meis duder who had the wherewithal to take out this psychopath. Let us never mention his name. Psychopaths don't deserve to be recognized.

#14 Posted by onarum (2076 posts) -

... what is it with you north americans and shooting in schools? seriously...

#15 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5428 posts) -

@spraynardtatum: It's simple numbers, there's 500+ people around and there's 1 shooter. Unless you're absolutely terrified of the guy for other reasons. I mean if MCD went on a rampage then sure don't fuck with him, but some frail, pale dude with a gun is just not very intimidating. This is also an individualistic vs communal thing; our people are so self-centered that of course they're going to be scared shitless of dying. But there's no reason to be scared of dying because nigh everyone is completely and utterly meaningless. There's millions of people and say 0.01% of them are crazies but only 0.0001% are heroes without it being part of their job description.

Ecclesiastes 1:2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

#16 Posted by UncleBenny (432 posts) -

@onarum said:

... what is it with you north americans and shooting in schools? seriously...

It's actually a recent legislation that was passed by our shadow government. People must die so that I can live. I FEED ON THE BLOOD OF THE YOUNG, FEED ME CHILDREN.

#17 Posted by Hunkulese (2717 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: There's a big difference between charging someone reloading their weapon and trying to sneak up on someone with a loaded gun. Maybe this is the really detrimental effect video games have on people. They all think they're ninjas or special agents. How do you intend to get within you imaginary ideal 10 foot perimeter? Do you know how easy it is to scan your surroundings and don't you think that's exactly what they'd be doing? There's absolutely no way to sneak up on someone who is expecting to be snuck up on.

#18 Posted by leejunfan83 (965 posts) -

VIDEO GAMES!!!!!!!!!

#19 Posted by Hunkulese (2717 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@hunkulese: That SPU is a Christian college does not mean that all of its students are Christian.

What does that have to do with anything?

#20 Posted by Hailinel (24670 posts) -

@hunkulese: Sorry Meant to reply to Fredchuckdave. Responding from mobile is a pain.

#21 Posted by Hunkulese (2717 posts) -

@spraynardtatum: It's simple numbers, there's 500+ people around and there's 1 shooter. Unless you're absolutely terrified of the guy for other reasons. I mean if MCD went on a rampage then sure don't fuck with him, but some frail, pale dude with a gun is just not very intimidating. This is also an individualistic vs communal thing; our people are so self-centered that of course they're going to be scared shitless of dying. But there's no reason to be scared of dying because nigh everyone is completely and utterly meaningless. There's millions of people and say 0.01% of them are crazies but only 0.0001% are heroes without it being part of their job description.

Ecclesiastes 1:2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

Now you're just coming off as a crazy person. Pick a side and stay there. You can't praise people for their heroics in saving lives and then say all lives are meaningless.

#22 Posted by Draugen (648 posts) -

Ayup. That's pretty dang brave.

#23 Posted by ZolRoyce (691 posts) -

I think my cynicism peek level has been achieved. The people are going to get upset for a while, some will make good points, most will want to use the tragedy to further their own agendas. The politicians will only use it to further their agendas or release a message about how terrible it all is and how sorry they are but wont actually do anything about it.
The media will froth at the mouths and trip over each other to achieve the best "story" they can get out of it which will involve the saddest/most gruesome image they can muster up.
Everyone will move on, then it will happen again and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat and nothing will change and no one will do anything meaningful and psychos will be psychos and people will be people and politicians will be politicians and the media will be the media and fuck it all.

Anyone wanna build a secret underwater city with me? We could just live there instead, away from everyone, I don't foresee anything going wrong with it at all.

#24 Posted by johncallahan (562 posts) -

You're right. Putting all the gun control stuff aside, that kid is a fucking hero. I've run through the scenario of a gunman showing up at my school, and always like to think I'd be willing to try and stop the guy before people get hurt. But god damn, in all honesty the thought terrifies me, don't know if I'd be able to. Kudos to that kid, for real.

On the issue of yet another shooting. Come on people, it almost feels rote at this point to continue saying we need to do something about gun control here in the US. I mean christ, I come from a family that loves guns. My dad's a collector, has been since he was a kid. I have inherited that love of guns. Guns are awesome, they can be a lot of fun. However THEY'RE ALSO DEADLY! The fact that it is sooo easy to get guns in this country so easy to get fully automatic ones, that... that's just fucked up. The link that IAmNotBatman posted is horrifying. The fact that I see yet another shooting and no longer reel in horror and sadness is horrifying. The fact that this has become so common here in the states is horrifying. Looking at other countries who have regulated guns better, and have had so few incidents. Like just look at it man, numbers don't lie.

#25 Posted by leebmx (2244 posts) -

Man, even as an apathetic gun enthusiast it's hard to argue that we don't need gun control. We are obviously not responsible enough to make sure this shit doesn't happen anymore.

That's the kind of thing I don't understand about guns in America. I get that as a nation you might want to decide that people should have access to guns, but surely you don't get to have access to something dangerous until you have proved you are responsible enough to handle it.

These shootings are not just caused by access to guns, but until US society has solved the problems that make people want to mow their class/workmates down it might be a good idea to make them harder to obtain, or at least reduce the power of those on the market.

But who am I kidding, the whole problem is so wound up in horrible culture wars politics that it will never be solved, there will just be more and more grieving families, injured victims, and paranoid classrooms.

#26 Posted by spraynardtatum (2896 posts) -

@spraynardtatum: It's simple numbers, there's 500+ people around and there's 1 shooter. Unless you're absolutely terrified of the guy for other reasons. I mean if MCD went on a rampage then sure don't fuck with him, but some frail, pale dude with a gun is just not very intimidating. This is also an individualistic vs communal thing; our people are so self-centered that of course they're going to be scared shitless of dying. But there's no reason to be scared of dying because nigh everyone is completely and utterly meaningless. There's millions of people and say 0.01% of them are crazies but only 0.0001% are heroes without it being part of their job description.

Ecclesiastes 1:2 "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless."

It's not simple numbers. You're trying to put order to something extremely chaotic.

#27 Posted by pinner458 (768 posts) -

It's those damn videogames man...

lol

#28 Posted by Zevvion (1871 posts) -

@fredchuckdave You sound like the kind of guy that is all talk. Specifically because he has no idea what he is talking about. I've had a gun aimed at me before. Let me tell you that shit is a lot scarier than you can imagine it would be. First, if you try to disarm someone you can most certainly die no matter how trained you are. Second, fear is absolutely a thing. You talking 'if you're not terrified'. You're going to be. There is no point in trying to dismiss that.

But yes, of course it is possible to do. I bet not by most people though. Everyone tends to think actually doing things in conflict is a lot easier than it actually is.

#29 Edited by Sanj (2384 posts) -

Fucking hell.

The man who tackled him, Jon Meis, is a hero in the truest sense of the word.

#30 Edited by believer258 (11891 posts) -

@fredchuckdave said:

some frail, pale dude with a gun is just not very intimidating.

A person's strength and complexion has nothing to do with the power of the gun they're holding.

I am happy to hear about someone being a hero. Being able to keep yourself calm enough to realize that you've got an opportunity to wrestle a killer down does show a lot of bravery.

#31 Posted by obcdexter (597 posts) -

@sanj said:

Fucking hell.

The man who tackled him, Jon Meis, is a hero in the truest sense of the word.

Yep, it's easy to imagine how you'd be all heroic in a situation like this; but acting accordingly when it actually happens? I bet I'd be scared shitless. And I bet he was, too. He somehow managed to keep his calm and pulled a smart maneuver during maybe the only opening he had. Ballsy, clever, heroic - just impressive. Who knows what the headlines would read had it not been for Meis? 10, 20, 30 dead?

#32 Edited by bmccann42 (102 posts) -

@believer258: Most definitely agree with that, those bullets do the same damage regardless of who is holding the gun. Read any story, any week where some 4 year old shoots another 4 year old.

That kid is some kind of brave, pepper sprayed and detained a nut with a gun. I hope he never has to buy another beer on that campus again.

#33 Posted by Random45 (1191 posts) -

It makes me so unbelievably happy that he was captured alive, instead of killing himself. It's sad that he still managed to kill someone.

I can't wait for the NRA's excuse for this one.

#34 Posted by stoodspoon (625 posts) -

@sanj said:

Fucking hell.

The man who tackled him, Jon Meis, is a hero in the truest sense of the word.

#35 Posted by spraynardtatum (2896 posts) -

Round of applause for Jon Meis, we have no idea how many lives he saved. My thoughts go out to the family of the wounded and killed.

#36 Edited by EpicSteve (6487 posts) -

What does it say about this whole gun thing that reading about mass shootings (we can define mass shootings later, but you know what I mean) just isn't interesting anymore? That's how bad it has gotten.

#37 Posted by Random45 (1191 posts) -

@leebmx said:

@unclebenny said:

Man, even as an apathetic gun enthusiast it's hard to argue that we don't need gun control. We are obviously not responsible enough to make sure this shit doesn't happen anymore.

That's the kind of thing I don't understand about guns in America. I get that as a nation you might want to decide that people should have access to guns, but surely you don't get to have access to something dangerous until you have proved you are responsible enough to handle it.

These shootings are not just caused by access to guns, but until US society has solved the problems that make people want to mow their class/workmates down it might be a good idea to make them harder to obtain, or at least reduce the power of those on the market.

But who am I kidding, the whole problem is so wound up in horrible culture wars politics that it will never be solved, there will just be more and more grieving families, injured victims, and paranoid classrooms.

A few things to note:

There's hardly any regulations on guns because of briber - Oh, I'm sorry, let me use the 'proper' term - lobbyist. The NRA has a lot of money, and due to that they can shut down a lot of laws and regulations that are attempted to pass after every single one of these stupid shootings.

Thing is, shootings in general have been going down steadily over the years, it's only due to the huge media exposure that it seems like it's not improving at all.

I think a huge reason people do shit like this is BECAUSE of the huge media exposure they get. They want people to see what they've done, and they want people to feel their wrath. If we NEVER named these kids, threw them into an ocean somewhere, and never talked about them again, I bet this wouldn't happen as often.

#38 Edited by spraynardtatum (2896 posts) -

What does it say about this whole gun thing that reading about mass shootings (we can define mass shootings later, but you know what I mean) just isn't interesting anymore? That's how bad it has gotten.

These kinds of tragedies are emotionally draining and numbing.

#39 Edited by DetectiveSpecial (466 posts) -

@fredchuckdave said:

@hunkulese: Well you should be decrying this guy for his lack of courage or something then. Of course it's possible to sneak up on people; but ultimately if you can just get to closing distance (~10 yards) only a combat-trained person is going to be able to react in time. Most of the crazies aren't big imposing people so just getting there should be enough.

10 yards is not closing distance. Closing distance scales with the weapon.

People who undergo training for this situation spend years learning how to properly move in on an armed subject, and the majority of that time is spent dealing with the psychological aspects of it. Even then, that maneuver is considered a last resort. The person in Seattle did (I assume with no training) what LEOs are trained to do - wait for a reload and incapacitate from beyond closing distance before moving in.

I truly hope the kid who stopped this gets all the recognition in the world. Also, I enjoy the absurdity of anyone being able to purchase a firearm, while civilians can't purchase chemical based sprays. Pepper spray is hit or miss.

#40 Posted by MB (12377 posts) -

He's got tackling armed gunmen down, but this kid isn't prepared to defend himself from the hordes of college girls who will be wanting to tackle him...for a LONG time.

Moderator Online
#41 Posted by rachelepithet (1391 posts) -

How many PS3s will my taxes buy him in prison?

#42 Posted by nasp (277 posts) -

@zolroyce said:

I think my cynicism peek level has been achieved. The people are going to get upset for a while, some will make good points, most will want to use the tragedy to further their own agendas. The politicians will only use it to further their agendas or release a message about how terrible it all is and how sorry they are but wont actually do anything about it.

The media will froth at the mouths and trip over each other to achieve the best "story" they can get out of it which will involve the saddest/most gruesome image they can muster up.

Everyone will move on, then it will happen again and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat and nothing will change and no one will do anything meaningful and psychos will be psychos and people will be people and politicians will be politicians and the media will be the media and fuck it all.

Anyone wanna build a secret underwater city with me? We could just live there instead, away from everyone, I don't foresee anything going wrong with it at all.

i hate to say it but all of this is true.the sad part is this has happened so many times im not shocked anymore.now when i see another shooting report im thinking"oh another shooting how surprising"and go do something else.thats how bad its gotten.whats worse is like you say nothing will change.it will all keep happening again and again until everyone is so numb to it happening that we dont care anymore.i hope it doesnt get to that point but its already starting to get there.

#43 Posted by GaspoweR (3011 posts) -
@mb said:

He's got tackling armed gunmen down, but this kid isn't prepared to defend himself from the hordes of college girls who will be wanting to tackle him...for a LONG time.

Eh, just thinking about IRL makes it sound more disturbing.

Maybe I've been watching too many fucked up stuff. :/

#44 Posted by Pr1mus (3899 posts) -

What does it say about this whole gun thing that reading about mass shootings (we can define mass shootings later, but you know what I mean) just isn't interesting anymore? That's how bad it has gotten.

The way the media cover these events is a big part of that. I read the thread title and just shrugged because at the same time in New Brunswick we had a crazed gunman on the loose who killed 3 cops... These things being covered as if this was entertainment for years will do that.

Online
#45 Posted by pweidman (2333 posts) -

These stories seem to be almost daily these days. How fucking much will it take for fundamental gun law changes to be made is my redundant question.

On another note, god bless that brave young man who pepper sprayed him and tackled him. I bet he says he was just acting on instinct trying to help the innocents around. Too bad someone still died. Thoughts and prayers to the family.

#46 Posted by kcin (127 posts) -

This thread makes me realize how outdated the term "armchair expert" is. It should be permanently changed to desk chair expert.

#47 Posted by hollitz (1512 posts) -

@random45 said:

I think a huge reason people do shit like this is BECAUSE of the huge media exposure they get. They want people to see what they've done, and they want people to feel their wrath. If we NEVER named these kids, threw them into an ocean somewhere, and never talked about them again, I bet this wouldn't happen as often.

Yeah, I don't know. Seems like most gunmen kill themselves afterward. Not really sure that media exposure is their goal. But it is an easy way to pass the buck.

#48 Edited by kcin (127 posts) -

@hollitz: You're mistaken for thinking fame in life is the only type of fame to be had. Several of these killers expect to live on after death, on the tongues of news reporters and in the words of the printed page. Elliot Roger explicitly intended to be examined, for his motivations to be ultimately understood. Christopher Dorner did, as well. These were acts of intention and purpose in the minds of those who committed them. And look at that: I remembered both of their names on my own. It worked.

#49 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@random45 said:

I think a huge reason people do shit like this is BECAUSE of the huge media exposure they get. They want people to see what they've done, and they want people to feel their wrath.

This has to be fourth fucking time I've referenced this, but:

  • There is not a “profile” of a school shooter-instead the students who carried out the attacks differed from one another in numerous ways.

  • 24% motivated by desire for attention or recognition.

#50 Edited by Dark_Lord_Spam (3293 posts) -

@kcin: It's worth remembering they were also mentally ill murderers. Not to say it isn't worth debating, but I don't know if letting the stated objective of mentally ill murderers determine the course of public discussion is the most reasonable thing to do.