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#1 Edited by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

So Meagan Marie is a lady I follow on twitter. I haven't met her personally but I get the impression that she's a nice lady and is certainly a good writer. She used to work at Gameinformer, where I first heard about her through her reviews, and is now working in PR for Crystal Dynamics on the Tomb Raider game. She also cosplays. I'm not particularly good at judging cosplay but apparently she's quite good.

All of these things are relevant because, at PAX East, she was hosting a gathering of people cosplaying as Lara Croft. Unfortunately, the female cosplayers were harassed by a member of the press who captured that treatment on camera. He made comments like "none of the men here could please you in bed" and when asked why he felt he was justified in embarrassing them he stated "the girls were dressing sexy so they asked for it". When Meagan stood up for the women to the man he replied that she was "one of those oversensitive feminists" and walked off in a huff like a child who'd been scolded.

Meagan handled the situation like an absolute professional explaining the situation to the PAX representatives and not announcing to everyone who the person worked for or his name on the internet or to any other press. But because the situation was at a public event and because it became a thing on her twitter she wrote a blog on her tumblr discussing the matter and her take on situation and sexism as a whole in the industry.

Now I know this is well worn territory and I have a feeling I know where this thread might go. But I hope it doesn't because I think her response is of a high enough quality that any such backlash would be unnecessary and unwarranted. She did a great job incorporating her own experiences in with the PAX incident in a really thoughtful manner. She's not blaming of all men or the industry or anything else that we men sometimes feel like might happen whenever sexism is discussed (I have to admit I've done that in the past so I get where you dudes are coming from). She blames specific people in specific instances but I would do and say much more then her if I were put in the situations she described. She's simply offering a perspective and I think it is one worth reading (patent pending @patrickklepek).

I know that this might be a tiring topic to see come up over and over again but I think Meagan sums up nicely her take on this sentiment in the second to last paragraph.

"The treatment and representation of women in gaming has come to a head this past year, and I know some of you are tired of hearing about it. I’m tired of living it. I want to feel safe and valued as a member of this industry, whether I’m conducting an interview, talking to fans on a convention floor, or cosplaying. And I have a right to that."

I really don't want this to turn into a big long thing where we take sides and define what view is right or wrong and so on and so forth. I would rather people simply read the article and that's all. If you want to comment please do but I really hope this doesn't become a big, drawn-out debacle. Especially when I think the perspective is well worth hearing even if you don't believe it to be accurate or fair.

Here's The Link To Her Post

#2 Posted by Slag (3365 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

I know that this might be a tiring topic to see come up over and over again but I think Meagan sums up nicely her take on this sentiment in the second to last paragraph.

"The treatment and representation of women in gaming has come to a head this past year, and I know some of you are tired of hearing about it. I’m tired of living it. I want to feel safe and valued as a member of this industry, whether I’m conducting an interview, talking to fans on a convention floor, or cosplaying. And I have a right to that."

That is extremely well said by her and completely reasonable expectation.

Maybe I'm in the minority on this, but I believe all this attention to this issue is ultimately going to be a good thing. Maybe this is what it will take to actually address the problem. Maybe stuff has to really blow up for change to happen.

If it doesn't , well I don't want to think about that.

#3 Posted by HerbieBug (3856 posts) -

Thank you for posting this. She's right, of course. Sadly this is still a common theme in many industries populated mostly by males.

So to Meagan Marie and the rest of the women working in this and other male majority industries; keep fighting the good fight. Change for the better can happen. It will.

#4 Edited by Enigma777 (6047 posts) -

She handled that way better than the forking/dongle lady. That dude does sound like a jerk though.

#5 Edited by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

She handled that way better than the forking/dongle lady. That dude does sound like a jerk though.

He probably has no idea that what he did was wrong either. He sounds like the worst.

#6 Posted by TruthTellah (7684 posts) -

Meagan Marie has a good perspective on it, and I'm glad she stood up as she did. Hopefully she'll continue to do so and set a strong example.

#7 Edited by Enigma777 (6047 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@enigma777 said:

She handled that way better than the forking/dongle lady. That dude does sound like a jerk though.

He probably has no idea that what he did was wrong either. He sounds like the worst.

Some people are just assholes. I'm sure he's just as bad towards dudes, but it's more accepted since "men aren't supposed to show their feelings" and such.

#8 Edited by eskimo (460 posts) -

Sure that guy sounds like an idiot, but fuck, you're cosplaying as one of the sleaziest characters in gaming, what did you expect? I don't understand where the line is.

I'm also convinced that I'm some sort of horrible sexist/rapist for even thinking this.

#9 Posted by MOAB (359 posts) -

oy

#10 Edited by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@enigma777 said:

She handled that way better than the forking/dongle lady. That dude does sound like a jerk though.

He probably has no idea that what he did was wrong either. He sounds like the worst.

Some people are just assholes. I'm sure he's just as bad towards dudes, but it'm more accepted since "men aren't supposed to show their feelings" and such.

Maybe. But he didn't do that in this instance so there's that.

@eskimo said:

Sure that guy sounds like an idiot, but fuck, you're cosplaying as one of the sleaziest characters in gaming, what did you expect? I dont dress up as Dirk Diggler then get offended when people make dick jokes. I don't understand where the line is.

I'm also convinced that I'm some sort of horrible sexist/rapist for even thinking this.

I guess that I would hope that in a perfect world people wouldn't be treated in any manner positive or negative based off of what they wear rather by who they are.

#11 Posted by Sergio (1774 posts) -

@eskimo said:

Sure that guy sounds like an idiot, but fuck, you're cosplaying as one of the sleaziest characters in gaming, what did you expect? I don't understand where the line is.

I'm also convinced that I'm some sort of horrible sexist/rapist for even thinking this.

I wouldn't consider the rebooted Lara Croft as sleazy. And even if someone were to cosplay as a "sleazy" character, it doesn't give anyone the right to mistreat them.

#12 Posted by Enigma777 (6047 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

I guess that I would hope that in a perfect world people wouldn't be treated in any manner positive or negative based off of what they wear rather by who they are.

A lot of people dress a certain way because they want others to treat them a certain way. You wear a suit when you want to appear professional, successful, etc. A cop's uniform represents his authority.

It's very hard to judge a person's character if you don't interact with them, and clothes, hairstyles, body language and so forth allows us to bridge that gap when we meet someone new.

With that said, there's a huge difference between thinking your waitress is hot in her tight little skirt and slapping that ass as she passes by. There's a line and that guy in the story crossed it.

#13 Edited by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

I guess that I would hope that in a perfect world people wouldn't be treated in any manner positive or negative based off of what they wear rather by who they are.

A lot of people dress a certain way because they want others to treat them a certain way. You wear a suit when you want to appear professional, successful, etc. A cop's uniform represents his authority.

It's very hard to judge a person's character if you don't interact with them, and clothes, hairstyles, body language and so forth allows us to bridge that gap when we meet someone new.

With that said, there's a huge difference between thinking your waitress is hot in her tight little skirt and slapping that ass as she passes by. There's a line and that guy in the story crossed it.

Absolutely. Finding someone attractive doesn't condone mistreatment or classlessness.

#14 Edited by eskimo (460 posts) -

@sergio: Sure, and following her history kind of parallels attitudes towards women in gaming, but up until a few months ago that character represented everything that was wrong with women in games. Now she gets held up as a fucking paragon of virtue, it's like a whitewashing of history. IMO one of the most sexist and shallow characters ever created.

You don't see hoards of women going around dressed as Alyx Vance or Faith, why is it that they always choose Lara? What kind of statement is that supposed to make?

#15 Edited by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

@eskimo said:

@sergio: Sure, and following her history kind of parallels attitudes towards women in gaming, but up until a few months ago that character represented everything that was wrong with women in games, and now she gets held up as a fucking paragon of virtue. It's like a whitewashing of history. You don't see hoards of women going around dressed as Alyx Vance or Faith, why is it that they always choose Lara? IMO one of the most sexist and shallow characters ever created.

See that's fine. Having an issue with a fictional character and disagreeing with how people view that character is fine. And I don't think you meant it this way but the idea of 'cosplay as consent' as Meagan put it is insane. How a person dresses shouldn't, and doesn't, justify mean behavior.

#16 Edited by Aronman789 (2674 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@enigma777 said:

@jasonr86 said:

I guess that I would hope that in a perfect world people wouldn't be treated in any manner positive or negative based off of what they wear rather by who they are.

A lot of people dress a certain way because they want others to treat them a certain way. You wear a suit when you want to appear professional, successful, etc. A cop's uniform represents his authority.

It's very hard to judge a person's character if you don't interact with them, and clothes, hairstyles, body language and so forth allows us to bridge that gap when we meet someone new.

With that said, there's a huge difference between thinking your waitress is hot in her tight little skirt and slapping that ass as she passes by. There's a line and that guy in the story crossed it.

Absolutely. Finding someone attractive doesn't condone mistreatment or classlessness.

It shouldn't even be an attraction thing, you should treat people with a pinch of respect at all times no matter the situation. If someone is annoying you, you don't scream at their face, do you? No. You keep that shit in your head. Do that with everything, and it shouldn't be a problem.

Now if the other person is screaming at you, or in the attraction situation- jiggling their dirty bits at you, you should respond accordingly, but not before.

#17 Posted by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@enigma777 said:

@jasonr86 said:

I guess that I would hope that in a perfect world people wouldn't be treated in any manner positive or negative based off of what they wear rather by who they are.

A lot of people dress a certain way because they want others to treat them a certain way. You wear a suit when you want to appear professional, successful, etc. A cop's uniform represents his authority.

It's very hard to judge a person's character if you don't interact with them, and clothes, hairstyles, body language and so forth allows us to bridge that gap when we meet someone new.

With that said, there's a huge difference between thinking your waitress is hot in her tight little skirt and slapping that ass as she passes by. There's a line and that guy in the story crossed it.

Absolutely. Finding someone attractive doesn't condone mistreatment or classlessness.

It shouldn't even be an attraction thing, you should treat people with a pinch of respect at all times no matter the situation. If someone is annoying you, you don't scream at their face, do you? No. You keep that shit in your head. Do that with everything, and it shouldn't be a problem.

Now if the other person is screaming at you, or in the attraction situation- jiggling their dirty bits at you, you should respond accordingly, but not before.

Word son.

#18 Posted by mrfluke (4854 posts) -

i think with the title you chose, this thread shouldn't blow up like the others.

#19 Posted by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

@mrfluke said:

i think with the title you chose, this thread shouldn't blow up like the others.

Which is why I chose my words carefully. Even though the title is a bit more 'touchy-feely' then what I'm usually like. Figured it'd be better safe then sorry.

#20 Edited by mikethekilla (327 posts) -

That guy sounds like a loser.

#21 Posted by eskimo (460 posts) -

@jasonr86: Sorry, but I see this massive irony in going around dressed as one of the most sexist and anti-woman characters in gaming, and then complaining about sexism.

#22 Posted by McGhee (6091 posts) -

This guy was being an asshole, but then you start asking yourself. People of either sex can be assholes. You see it here with this loser and also with that "donglegate" bullshit. Two assholes. One just happens to be a man, the other a woman.

#23 Posted by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

@eskimo said:

@jasonr86: Sorry, but I see this massive irony in going around dressed as one of the most sexist and anti-woman characters in gaming, and then complaining about sexism.

Which is fine if you think that. You're totally free to your opinion. But people aren't free to be rude or classless because they have an opinion. Opinion doesn't condone misbehavior. It just means you have a view on a matter. Which is totally fine. Misbehavior isn't.

@mcghee said:

This guy was being an asshole, but then you start asking yourself. People of either sex can be assholes. You see it here with this loser and also with that "donglegate" bullshit. Two assholes. One just happens to be a man, the other a woman.

Absolutely true. There's issues around assholes from both sexes that effect both sexes equally and separately. But this is an issue about women being mistreated. And that sucks and isn't fair. When we have a topic of men being mistreated I would hope that people would say that that sucks and is unfair too. But right now this isn't about the mistreatment of men.

#24 Edited by McGhee (6091 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@mcghee said:

This guy was being an asshole, but then you start asking yourself. People of either sex can be assholes. You see it here with this loser and also with that "donglegate" bullshit. Two assholes. One just happens to be a man, the other a woman.

Absolutely true. There's issues around assholes from both sexes that effect both sexes equally and separately. But this is an issue about women being mistreated. And that sucks and isn't fair. When we have a topic of men being mistreated I would hope that people would say that that sucks and is unfair too. But right now this isn't about the mistreatment of men.

What is the mistreatment of men? I have never once in my entire life thought, "that offends me as a man." Because so many women attach everything to their womenhood: their successes, failures, how they label everything they do (female gamer, female artist, female tech geek) I don't think they will ever get what they really want. And for most I think that is just to be treated equally. You can't have that if you are already labeling yourself and separating yourself from the get-go can you?

If I were a female (yeah, I'm going to make this ridiculous statement) I would just be "a gamer" not a "female gamer." I would play games that I like and ignore the ones I don't. If more women start buying games that they feel represent them better, then the market will go in that direction.

It is exactly like what Morgan Freeman has said, "I'm gonna stop calling you a white man, and I'm gonna ask you to stop calling me a black man." It applies here just as well.

#25 Edited by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

Man, that asshole who said all that stuff is the kind of person that sets everyone who even slightly disagree with feminism back a long way. As if tensions weren't high enough.

#26 Edited by TheHumanDove (2397 posts) -

sounds like this needs some dongle justice

edit: I work in a profession that involves the public: males and females are rude and inconsiderate assholes. Lets not make it a videogame thing. Thanks.

#27 Posted by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

@mcghee said:

@jasonr86 said:

@mcghee said:

This guy was being an asshole, but then you start asking yourself. People of either sex can be assholes. You see it here with this loser and also with that "donglegate" bullshit. Two assholes. One just happens to be a man, the other a woman.

Absolutely true. There's issues around assholes from both sexes that effect both sexes equally and separately. But this is an issue about women being mistreated. And that sucks and isn't fair. When we have a topic of men being mistreated I would hope that people would say that that sucks and is unfair too. But right now this isn't about the mistreatment of men.

What is the mistreatment of men? I have never once in my entire life thought, "that offends me as a man." Because so many women attach everything to their womenhood: their successes, failures, how they label everything they do (female gamer, female artist, female tech geek) I don't think they will ever get what they really want. And for most I think that is just to be treated equally. You can't have that if you are already labeling yourself and separating yourself from the get-go can you?

If I were a female (yeah, I'm going to make this ridiculous statement) I would just be "a gamer" not a "female gamer." I would play games that I like and ignore the ones I don't. If more women start buying games that they feel represent them better, then the market will go in that direction.

It is exactly like what Morgan Freeman has said, "I'm gonna stop calling you a white man, and I'm gonna ask you to stop calling me a black man." It applies here just as well.

I think you're bringing in separate issues here. Meagan's not referring to the label 'female-gamer' or anything of that sort. The PAX incident involved a person harassing a group of people because he felt he was entitled to do so. She then references moments where she was objectified, completely unwarranted, by people who felt they were entitled to objectify. This is an issue of treating people badly because of the fiction many people believe that certain people in certain scenarios are able to be treated in such terrible ways because 'they asked for it and it's normal so it's ok'. I know it's long but read through her post dude. She does a much better job of explaining this then I do.

Man, that asshole who said all that stuff is the kind of person that sets everyone who even slightly disagree with feminism back a long way. As if tensions weren't high enough.

This is why I felt this post was worth mentioning. I think Meagan is being completely fair and reasonable. She isn't asking for the moon. She's asking for common courtesy expected between two equal individuals that is a norm between two men. I think that's completely fair.

#28 Posted by eskimo (460 posts) -

@jasonr86: Yeah that's true, it might piss me off, but I'm not about to behave like an idiot because of it.

#29 Posted by McGhee (6091 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@mcghee said:

@jasonr86 said:

@mcghee said:

This guy was being an asshole, but then you start asking yourself. People of either sex can be assholes. You see it here with this loser and also with that "donglegate" bullshit. Two assholes. One just happens to be a man, the other a woman.

Absolutely true. There's issues around assholes from both sexes that effect both sexes equally and separately. But this is an issue about women being mistreated. And that sucks and isn't fair. When we have a topic of men being mistreated I would hope that people would say that that sucks and is unfair too. But right now this isn't about the mistreatment of men.

What is the mistreatment of men? I have never once in my entire life thought, "that offends me as a man." Because so many women attach everything to their womenhood: their successes, failures, how they label everything they do (female gamer, female artist, female tech geek) I don't think they will ever get what they really want. And for most I think that is just to be treated equally. You can't have that if you are already labeling yourself and separating yourself from the get-go can you?

If I were a female (yeah, I'm going to make this ridiculous statement) I would just be "a gamer" not a "female gamer." I would play games that I like and ignore the ones I don't. If more women start buying games that they feel represent them better, then the market will go in that direction.

It is exactly like what Morgan Freeman has said, "I'm gonna stop calling you a white man, and I'm gonna ask you to stop calling me a black man." It applies here just as well.

I think you're bringing in separate issues here. Meagan's not referring to the label 'female-gamer' or anything of that sort. The PAX incident involved a person harassing a group of people because he felt he was entitled to do so. She then references moments where she was objectified, completely unwarranted, by people who felt they were entitled to objectify. This is an issue of treating people badly because of the fiction many people believe that certain people in certain scenarios are able to be treated in such terrible ways because 'they asked for it and it's normal so it's ok'. I know it's long but read through her post dude. She does a much better job of explaining this then I do.

I did read her entire post. Those guys were being sleazy assholes. I am just speaking to the bigger issue here because this has been on my mind. And whatever, I could also go into everything else, but I'm damn tired and need to be up in five hours.

#30 Edited by TheHumanDove (2397 posts) -

Also I'm glad women need to be defended by men, and told how 'brave' they are for public interaction. Here's a brain teaser, anyone with a job in social media is trained to shrug off the insults that come about. Be it sexism, verbal attacks. Its a part of the job. You signed up for it. Should it happen within your workplace? Of course not. Theres laws against it. But part of working with the public is tolerance. How the fuck is she brave compared to any other rinky dink minimum wage worker that is verbally abused at their job? Please. Your title made me want to puke, and I find this pandering disabling for women anywhere

#31 Edited by JasonR86 (9381 posts) -

Also I'm glad women need to be defended by men, and told how 'brave' they are for public interaction. Here's a brain teaser, anyone with a job in social media is trained to shrug off the insults that come about. Be it sexism, verbal attacks. Its a part of the job. You signed up for it. Should it happen within your workplace? Of course not. Theres laws against it. But part of working with the public is tolerance. How the fuck is she brave compared to any other rinky dink minimum wage worker that is verbally abused at their job? Please. Your title made me want to puke, and I find this pandering disabling for women anywhere

Thanks for reading!

#32 Posted by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:
@mrsignerman44 said:

Man, that asshole who said all that stuff is the kind of person that sets everyone who even slightly disagrees with feminism back a long way. As if tensions weren't high enough.

This is why I felt this post was worth mentioning. I think Meagan is being completely fair and reasonable. She isn't asking for the moon. She's asking for common courtesy expected between two equal individuals that is a norm between two men. I think that's completely fair.

I think you misinterpreted what I said, Meagan is completely right and I have no problem with this story at all. I just hope that radical feminists won't blow this out of proportion and claim that the industry is as sexist as ever, when really, we all know better by now.

#33 Posted by Milkman (16233 posts) -

I know some of you are tired of hearing about it. I’m tired of living it. I want to feel safe and valued as a member of this industry, whether I’m conducting an interview, talking to fans on a convention floor, or cosplaying. And I have a right to that.

Nailed it right there. As much as I see people complain how apparently sexism is being "shoved down their throats" or whatever, this is really the bottom line. I wish people would really think before saying stupid things like that they're "tired of hearing about sexism."

#34 Posted by Inkerman (1448 posts) -

From my passing interest in this issue, a lot of the storm of the last year over the sexism in the industry seems to be directed at situations different to the one she describes (but is probably a symptom of the underlying problem). From the reporting I assumed that the 'sexism in gaming' issue was centred around how women are depicted in the games themselves or from issues on how gamers treat women. What she's describing is a serious problem that is completely internal to the industry (CEOs and PR at closed events away from fans), and I think she does a great job at clarifying the problems within the industry better than any of the recent 'outrages' have been.

It's clear that women in the industry have a problem, but so far a lot have failed to articulate what exactly the problem was and where it was coming from. Now I haven't always agreed with the reactions to sexism in gaming. I think Patrick's reaction to the Cyberpunk 2077 trailer was completely unwarranted, but it's clear there's an issue, I just wish people would make it clear what that issue is and where its coming from rather than 'venting' their frustrations in response to sometimes quite minor 'outrages'.

#35 Posted by Clonedzero (3746 posts) -

not to sound like a dick or nothing, but this isn't a "brave story". its a guy who was being a dick and a woman calling him out on it. nothing more nothing less.

#36 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -

Last year I was attacked by a person with a knife, who took my belongings and ran off into the night. I then called the police. No one in this topic would describe my calling the authorities to enforce the law as 'brave'. They would probably instead describe it as 'the least I could possibly do' short of nothing whatsoever. The guy in question, provided it was a prolonged thing, seems like an ass. That doesn't qualify being affected by his ass-ness as 'brave'. I don't want to be so strident, but this seems like the subtle racism of lowered expectations. Holding a member of a group as admirable for acting in an appropriate manner. That would be like giving me special praise for calling the police when witnessing a rape, even though I'm a man!

And I _love_ how she brought "I want to feel safe" into this. That's called constructing a threat narrative. This guy was a rude ass. But since he's a man and she's a woman, being rude constitutes a credible threat to her. Ugh, that sucks. As a side note, "I have a right to that"... Actually, you have a right to BE safe, and have measures taken to ensure it, not a right to FEEL safe. That's an important distinction. And I don't know, I don't think I have a right to be valued in any meaningful way, independent of someone's opinion of me. I have a right to not be discriminated against, or injured, or my property taken. I don't think I have a right to be valued on account of my existence. Perhaps that's me being pedantic about 'rights', but it sure seems like people grow up thinking they're entitled to a lot more than the law or common sense dictates.

And as for people being 'tired', they're tired of things that are not sexism being called sexism (and worse, things that are not misogyny being called misogyny). And this in itself doesn't qualify as sexism, it qualifies as sexual harassment. He didn't say "they're women so they deserve it" he said they're dressed promiscuously so they deserve it; that's sexually normative, not sexist. I completely disagree with him, since I like sexual liberation and will do whatever is necessary to encourage everyone to be so, but it's based on sexual norms rather than actual sexism. As for objectification, in this case (and in almost all cases) we're talking instrumentality, yeah it seems like he misunderstood why they were dressed up, or at least their roles in their company. Because ethically, professional cosplayers are being paid to be ogled, but PR people are not. Hell, even when talking about pro cosplayers, ogling is fine, talking a bunch of mess no one wants to hear makes you an ass.

Then again, I wonder why she would cosplay, I'd hope it was not part of her employment contract. And if it wasn't and she was talked into it, she ought to go to HR because you can't be made to take duties with no compensation.

And I don't to jump all over you, Jason, because you one of the most reasonable on these forums. But those are my three main issues with what I've been presented with. Going to an authority to redress a wrong is not brave or special, I think her idea of rights are kind of naive, and this is a case of harassment and not sexism. I admit to being a pedant, but it's worth stating those. But I don't want to make it seem like a personal attack or whathaveyou.

Have a great day!

#37 Edited by fetchfox (1160 posts) -

@jasonr86: Great topic, and no, we shouldn't be sick of it. And if one are, one could simply ignore this. It sad to hear that this still happens and I hope incidents of this nature will become less frequent in the future (though to perfectly honest, that seems unlikely).

#38 Posted by Dagbiker (6899 posts) -

I agree that that was uncalled for, but considering how Square Enix was marching all the Tomb Raider girls through the middle of the Expo floor for pictures im not surprised. They were using sex to sell there games, and now they are talking about how they don't like the sexism in games.

They want a double standard.

#39 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -

@Dagbiker I think it's just that a lot of people don't know the appropriate way to handle sexuality, and especially sex work. In the cases of real feminists (not Ms Marie), they simply want an end to all sex work, and sexually liberated people of course disagree. I wouldn't go so far as to say they 'want' a double standard, I think they just want to have their cake and eat it too, and the double standard is a result rather than the objective. I think women who want to be taken on intellectual merits and women who want to be taken on physical merits can have both, just probably not at the exact same time. I'd say the same for men. If Matthew McConaghey wants people to pay attention to his words he needs to put on a Goddamn shirt! XD

There's a good YouTube channel called FeministWhore (hold on, keep listening!) by a sex worker's rights activist, who spends most of her time getting upset at other feminists who ghettoize sex work, demonize sexual liberation, and either treat her like a victim or a traitor.

#40 Edited by Jams (2956 posts) -
#41 Posted by SexyToad (2739 posts) -

Every time I hear about a feminist thing, I think it's dumb. Not dumb as in the females or what they're trying to achieve, but dumb as in the whole thing I guess. This shouldn't be a issue, but yet it is. I think Meagan was kind if the opposite of what you've been hearing about. She didn't take this issue, and told everyone the name of the press member but rather kept it confidential. She didn't start a crusade against the guy, which is why I respect her.

#42 Edited by hinderk (683 posts) -

@brodehouse: Did you read the actual blog? You're focusing on the pax incident when she even says it isn't the focus of the blog.

A quote from the blog

But this encounter isn’t the crux of my blog. This blog is about what I came to realize as a result of the press member’s actions. And what I realized is this: When it comes to defending others, I’m fierce. I’m assertive. And I will hold my ground. One of the cosplayers tweeted me to praise my bravery and say they wish they had the courage to stand up too. The truth is my bravery doesn’t run that deep. When it comes to defending myself I’m a rug that is walked over repeatedly. This has to stop.

Don't really have anything else to say. Just got the feeling that you only read the first post and not her actual blog post.

#43 Edited by mrfluke (4854 posts) -

@jasonr86 said:

@mrfluke said:

i think with the title you chose, this thread shouldn't blow up like the others.

Which is why I chose my words carefully. Even though the title is a bit more 'touchy-feely' then what I'm usually like. Figured it'd be better safe then sorry.

well it worked, currently this thread has 500 views, usually the threads about sexism easily spike over 1000+ views by now.

#44 Edited by JadeGL (613 posts) -

Thanks for posting this. I found this paragraph to be the most important, for me at least.

It got so bad that one of my Game Informer coworkers had to sit me down and convince me to file a complaint against a massive publisher, after one of their PR leads repeatedly commented about how much he “loved my tits” at a party. Each time I laughed it off and internalized my embarrassment, cementing a fixed smile on my face while fighting back tears. Why? Because I was afraid to rock the boat. I was afraid to perpetuate rumors that I was uptight, difficult, or had no sense of humor. I was afraid of what I’d heard being said about other women being said about me. So I would stick up for others, but never for myself. Sticking up for others was the right thing to do. I had to be careful not to stick my neck out too far, though.

That's one of the things I find the most frustrating, even on forums like this and other places on the internet, whether in a blog or in a game. As a woman, you have to balance on a line between being cool, getting the joke, and not being uptight, but also not letting people take advantage of you and cross a line. I have had people cross a line with me online, and I wish that I could go back to my younger self (this was a few years ago) and report the individuals instead of just quickly deleting the PMs and trying forget them. Guess what? It's not something you forget easily. The funny thing is, even though I am not a public figure like the blog writer is, I still had similar things said to me based just on the gender of my avatar. I don't think I was "asking" for the behavior just because I was playing a game. Oh and my avatar is not scantily clad, so you can throw out that excuse too.

Also, just for added clarity, the game I was playing was also rated E for Everyone, not something where you would expect nasty stuff flying at you, like an M-Rated online shooter.

At the time I just didn't want to deal with it and I left the game. Like I said, I should have used the tools to report the individuals, but I figured it was someone being stupid online and that it wasn't a big deal. Now I would report them in a nanosecond. Life is too short and games are too much fun to be ruined by a jackass hiding behind an online avatar.

The main point of her article is that she is not going to let people walk all over her anymore, which is good for anyone to voice, not just a woman. I am sure it's a potent thought for women and men to speak up for themselves and not allow themselves to become a door mat. So I appreciate another person speaking up when a lot people don't, won't or can't.

I just wish more people would subscribe to the Golden Rule of treating people like you would want to be treated. I understand it's pretty much impossible for the internet, but people should know better and be better in face-to-face situations.

#45 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -

@hinderk What are you talking about? I responded to the original post in ... the thread the original post appears in. If I was responding to the blog, wouldn't I have responded _on the blog_ or quoted the parts I wanted to respond to? Wouldn't I bring up "in her blog she says she's not brave and I agree/disagree"? The only part of her blog I'm responding to is the part directly quoted in the original post, regarding 'feeling safe'. The thread title calls her brave for following the appropriate response to harassment. I disagreed with the thread title for the reasons I stated. How she feels about whether or not she's brave is completely irrelevant to my disagreement with the thread title. I disagreed with three things; the application of 'brave' used in the thread, the building of a threat narrative around someone being rude, and that this is not sexism but sexual harassment. They are all germane to the arguments presented in the thread, so there is no need to consult outside sources to respond to the direct issue.

Honestly do you know why I bother wading in here and responding to stuff like this? Because maybe it'll inspire others to be a little more rational, be a little more dispassionate when they assess arguments. I understand people feel a certain way, but good intentions don't require bad reason. If anyone lives in a major city, there are actual classes in logic, you can take them without rearranging your life. And I'm not even saying that to be a pretentious twat, I actually they're a good thing and will improve lives.

#46 Posted by deathstriker666 (1337 posts) -

Good on her, though I wouldn't call it brave. Telling off some prick with a camera who makes distatsefull comments is not fighting back against oppression. It's called integrity, the ability to stand up for yourself. They're making it sound like she deserves the Medal of Honor. No, I've seen Women bitch at other Women right in front of their face with far more insulting and stronger profanities. Seriously, all this talk about how the Western World empowers Women to be "strong" and "independent" is absolutely ridiculous. You aren't born with thick skin. You aren't born "tough" and "independent". You have to be tough if you wan't to survive in a Man's World and some of the toughest Women I've met don't come from white American Suburbia. No, they're from the poor and impoverished areas of the World, areas where both Men and Women have to be tough if they want to survive.

#48 Posted by Godlyawesomeguy (6375 posts) -

jiggling their dirty bits at you, you should respond accordingly, but not before.

Or perhaps even eyeing you provocatively in an elevator.

#49 Posted by Brodehouse (9370 posts) -

@Wrighteous86 No one in this thread has said she should 'get over' being harassed. You are deliberately building a strawman argument against 'members of the gaming community'.

I went through the thread, the most negative thing said was that if you dress promiscously it stands to reason people are going to respond in a lascivious manner. Not even that they're justified, just that it stands to reason it will happen. That is not 'members of the gaming community' telling her to 'get over it'.

#50 Posted by Aronman789 (2674 posts) -

@aronman789 said:

jiggling their dirty bits at you, you should respond accordingly, but not before.

Or perhaps even eyeing you provocatively in an elevator.

While Jiggling their dirty bits. Or any bits really, as long as there's jiggling, there has to be jiggling.