Ahhh a conservative!

I was listening to the Rebel FM Podcast and they started talking bashing  Shadow Complex because of the relationship between  Donald Mustard and  Orson Scott Card. What a lame reason to trash a game. 

So, why is that always the response from the gaming media when they find out a game is made by either a Christian or a conservative?  One, that isn’t very tolerant. Two, some religious, economic, or political beliefs shouldn’t turn you off to a game.

Yes, Orson Scott Card is a conservative.  Yes, he is a Mormon.  So, who cares?  He wrote Ender’s Game. What he does in his private life shouldn’t be any concern of yours.

• J.R.R. Tolkien was Catholic.
• Michael Crichton a conservative.  As a side note, I love Michael Crichton.   The man was a genius.
• Sid Miere is a Christian.

With the assumption, games are art; let us separate the art from the artist.

You're kind of covering up the beef. The issue was that he wanted gays killed or something stupid. I don't remember, but it was more than "he's a conservative". He definitely donated a lot of money to some legally-and-morally questionable things that wished no pleasantries upon homosexuals, and so people thought (correctly so) that money to Shadow Complex was money to gay-bashing. 
 
Not that I'm one of them, mind you, I thought Shadow Complex was amazing. 
 
Kinda old news though.

I am a Mormon and I approve of Ender's Game. The rest of the post I don't really have much of an opinion on.

This is major OLD news, from 18 months ago.

And secondly, a lot of the criticism that flowed Orson Scott Card's way wasn't because he was a Christian but because some felt offended at his virulent anti-homosexual agendas, as well as his other activities. He's less conservative and more a neo-conservative. You should go study up on some of his beliefs, relationship with certain organizations and the agendas he pushes forward.

Do you see Sid Meier getting bashed around?

Shit like this is why they don't like OSC. I bet there's a lot of conservitive dudes out there making games that they know via being in the industry, and I'm sure they don't bash their games because they are conservative.

 but to be used when necessary to send a clear message that those whoflagrantly violate society's regulation of sexual behavior cannot be permitted to remain as acceptable, equal citizens within that society.    

Michael Chrichton is a bad example because his conservative views often showed up in his writing, such as in State of Fear where he is basically denying global warming as something that exists, which is a view held pretty much exclusively by conservatives.

I'm with Matt Rorie in this one.

"

I'm with Matt Rorie in this one.

"

After reading through this thread I have concluded that he's kind of a dick.

" Shit like this is why they don't like OSC. I bet there's a lot of conservitive dudes out there making games that they know via being in the industry, and I'm sure they don't bash their games because they are conservative. "

The issue with Shadow Complex was that the game loosely tied into a universe developed by Orson Scott Card, the connection was  so loose in fact that it was almost irrelevant. The problem arose when it came out that Orson Scott Card was giving a good portion of his profits on any endeavor to anti-gay foundation and groups. This supposedly included people like the god hates fags group who will protest at funerals of aids victims regardless of their sexual orientation and even now the funerals of soldiers.  
 
Chair is criticized for involving Orson Scott Card on projects where the need of his involvement is questionable. Again Shadow Complex was about a militia group trying to over throw America. Chair tied the game's premise to a book Card hard written by using the militia from the book's name, but outside of that there is really no connection. People who take issue with Chair feel that Chair is finding any reason to involve Orson Scott Card in projects and thus providing him with money, which in turn he uses to help extremist groups. 
 
That's why there is an issue, but seriously.... Shadow Complex was a great game....    

Drives me up the fucking wall whenever I find a Mormon in favor of passing laws to ban booze/tobacco/gays. A strong foundation to their beliefs is the freedom of choice, and the consequences are supposed to be distributed by God, not government.  
 
Legal punishments for homosexuality? You've got to be joking. As long as they aren't getting married in your temples you shouldn't care.

I heard this and was actually really curious as to why they were hating on Orson Scott Card. After reading this thread I have to think it was his gay bashing and not his conservatism.

My understanding is that Card's stance on gays pisses off a lot of people, not just the fact that he's Mormon.  But honestly, someone's work should be the only thing that matters, imo.  Despite their religious or political views, or what they say.
 
If a game starts being devalued because a designer shows up in a tabloid or says/is something unpopular, I'll be sad.  But when Tim Schaefer called Kotick a prick, or when Mark Rein was an ass at an indie gathering, it all blew over quick.  So hopefully this OSC hate is an isolated incident.

They didn't diss Orson because he was a conservative, it was mainly his strong anti-homophobia.
That said, it's true the game shouldn't be attached so strongly to his views, even if Donald Mustard and Orson Scott Card had a close working relationship, the programmers, animators, and artists are the ones who ultimately craft the experience - not Mr. Card.
As for the possibility of purchasing the game and funding Mr. Card in the slightest way, there is a ton of unsavory aspects about purchasing any consumer goods.

I like fun games
shadow complex was fun 
nuff said

" My understanding is that Card's stance on gays pisses off a lot of people, not just the fact that he's Mormon.  But honestly, someone's work should be the only thing that matters, imo.  Despite their religious or political views, or what they say.  If a game starts being devalued because a designer shows up in a tabloid or says/is something unpopular, I'll be sad.  But when Tim Schaefer called Kotick a prick, or when Mark Rein was an ass at an indie gathering, it all blew over quick.  So hopefully this OSC hate is an isolated incident. "

" Shit like this is why they don't like OSC. I bet there's a lot of conservitive dudes out there making games that they know via being in the industry, and I'm sure they don't bash their games because they are conservative. "

"  You must all know half a dozen at least who are no use in this world, who are more trouble than they are worth.  Just put them there and say Sir, or Madam, now will you be kind enough to justify your existence?

“If you can’t justify your existence, if you’re not pulling your weight [garbled], if you’re not producing as much as you consume or perhaps a little more, then, clearly, we cannot use the organizations of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive, because your life does not benefit us and it can’t be of very much use to yourself."

Oscar Wilde was also a socialist, yet his play, The Importance of Being Earnest , was one of the funniest ones I have ever seen.  I, on the other hand, am a libertarian - about as far from socialism as possible without going into the realms of anarchy.  But I have no problem with different beliefs in art - Hollywood movies generally espouse a more liberal point of view, but I still see them.  Apparently, there is no problem, unless the artist is a conservative or a Christian (or both) and then everyone gets up in arms about their beliefs being bad and "don't support that stuff".  Why is that?  Sean Penn said that people who criticize the Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez should be imprisoned.  Where is the outrage?  How about you separate politics from your gaming as much as possible and just play GOOD GAMES.  Especially when the political point of view causing the outrage isn't even mentioned in the game.

 Chair is criticized for involving Orson Scott Card on projects where the need of his involvement is questionable. Again Shadow Complex was about a militia group trying to over throw America. Chair tied the game's premise to a book Card hard written by using the militia from the book's name, but outside of that there is really no connection. People who take issue with Chair feel that Chair is finding any reason to involve Orson Scott Card in projects and thus providing him with money, which in turn he uses to help extremist groups.       

  How about you separate politics from your gaming as much as possible and just play GOOD GAMES. 

There's a dude named Donald Mustard in Shadow Complex?
 
AWESOME

As long as their beliefs don't bleed into the fiction they write, I agree. There's nothing saying that a conservative can't write well. And it depends on what you mean by "conservative" - there are many different types of conservative, and few people fit neatly into any one category. I myself, have a mix of liberal and conservative beliefs. When it comes to science and religion and most social politics, I am very liberal. But when it comes to most economic matters, and criminal matters, I am very conservative. So what do I fall under? A libertarian? But I support Social Welfare within reason, and many libertarians want that entirely abolished. With regards to genetic engineering and medicine, I support pharma-companies and agri-science businesses, which many would say is a "conservative" thing to do, yet I also believe that Climate Change is a threat that must be dealt with, again something many would say is a very "liberal" thing. 
 
So you can't just pigeon hole people into "conservative = this" or "liberal = this". People are more complex than that. To just say "he's a conservative, therefore, nothing he/she says is worth paying attention to" is silly thinking. The same applies to conservatives to dismiss liberals. No one is perfect, no one is right all the time.  
 
With Orson Scott Card, I can't say that I've ever read a single one of his books. I do know that Shadow Complex is a good game, but he didn't make the game, it's just set in the universe tied to one of his books. Do I disagree with Card's world-view and philosophy? Probably. Do I disagree with his books? I haven't read them. Do I have to hate Shadow Complex? Certainly not. I am aware of Card's hostility towards gay people and atheists, but that doesn't come across in Shadow Complex, so no harm done.

When the Christians and Conservatives stop directly forcing their beliefs upon my personal life, I'll start being much more tolerant of theirs.
 
Until that day, those criticisms are valid.

" You're kind of covering up the beef. The issue was that he wanted gays killed or something stupid. I don't remember, but it was more than "he's a conservative". He definitely donated a lot of money to some legally-and-morally questionable things that wished no pleasantries upon homosexuals, and so people thought (correctly so) that money to Shadow Complex was money to gay-bashing.  Not that I'm one of them, mind you, I thought Shadow Complex was amazing.  Kinda old news though. "

are games art?

Nothing to do with him being Conservative. All about him saying things like this... 
 
" 

I don't know about you guys, but I get the heebie geebies when I see dudes kissing other dudes. A penis belongs in a woman, not another man.

" When the Christians and Conservatives stop directly forcing their beliefs upon my personal life, I'll start being much more tolerant of theirs.  Until that day, those criticisms are valid. "

Fuck yeah Michel Crichton.

"I don't know about you guys, but I get the heebie geebies when I see dudes kissing other dudes. A penis belongs in a woman, not another man. "

" @weeman105 said:

"I don't know about you guys, but I get the heebie geebies when I see dudes kissing other dudes. A penis belongs in a woman, not another man. "

Don't worry, you'll grow up and accept it someday.  "

" @Brendan said:

" @weeman105 said:

"I don't know about you guys, but I get the heebie geebies when I see dudes kissing other dudes. A penis belongs in a woman, not another man. "

Don't worry, you'll grow up and accept it someday.  "

he will accept the idea of two men in love, or he will accept the penis? "

" I don't know about you guys, but I get the heebie geebies when I see dudes kissing other dudes. A penis belongs in a woman, not another man. "

" @weeman105 said:

" I don't know about you guys, but I get the heebie geebies when I see dudes kissing other dudes. A penis belongs in a woman, not another man. "

A penis belongs wherever the fuck the owner wants to put it, so long as the receiver is accepting of that. What fucking business is it of yours what someone wants to do with their own genitals and consensual partner? It's really quite easy to avoid looking up gay porn (start with not looking up gay porn) and if some homosexuals are gaying it up in front of you in your house, I suggest phoning the police as that sounds like breaking and entering and at least a few laws on sexual harassment which would apply to heterosexuals as well. "

" I heard this and was actually really curious as to why they were hating on Orson Scott Card. After reading this thread I have to think it was his gay bashing and not his conservatism. "

when they came for the homophobes, i did not speak up because i was not a homophobe 
when they came for the conservatives, i did not speak up because i was not a conservative 
and then the world became a much better place. you're welcome

 "With the assumption, games are art; let us separate the art from the artist.     "

" What does Christians or catholics got to do with liberals or conservatives?  I'm just asking, no tone meant. "

"So, why is that always the response from the gaming media when they find out a game is made by either a Christian or a conservative?  One, that isn’t very tolerant. Two, some religious, economic, or political beliefs shouldn’t turn you off to a game."

The problem for conservatives is that most people think of  Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin. I am a conservative Christian, but I am at least twice as sane as Palin. :-) 
 
I don't think people should skip out on games or movies based on whether they agree with the philosophical viewpoints of the creator. I like to keep an open mind and keep informed. I watch all of the Coen Brothers movies, not because I agree with their nihilistic worldview, but because I think they are creative and interesting. 
 
It would be like me deciding not to buy any Apple products because they donated money to prop 8. That's just nuts people. 

" The problem for conservatives is that most people think of  Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin. I am a conservative Christian, but I am at least twice as sane as Palin. :-)  I don't think people should skip out on games or movies based on whether they agree with the philosophical viewpoints of the creator. I like to keep an open mind and keep informed. I watch all of the Coen Brothers movies, not because I agree with their nihilistic worldview, but because I think they are creative and interesting.  It would be like me deciding not to buy any Apple products because they donated money to prop 8. That's just nuts people.  "

Mormons are terrible. Seriously. I'm sure a few of them are very nice people, but some of their beliefs and practices are downright hateful.
 
That said though, I loved Shadow Complex.

It looks like most people have hit the highlights of why OSC in particular is despised despite most of us loving Ender's Game at one point in our lives.  Once I saw where his money goes, I've refused to buy anything else by him.
 
But I'll also add that the book Shadow Complex was based on was viewed by most as a fairly transparent attempt to bash liberals and paint them as stupid/insane.  So there were some concerns that the game would go along with those same ideas, which would have entirely ruined what was one of my favorite games of two years ago.  Luckily they didn't take any of the actual plot of the book, to the point where they only called the bad guys the "Restoration" as opposed to the "Progressive Restoration" as I think the book has it.  I believe in a Bombcast Brad said he had tried to read the book and couldn't finish it for those reasons.

That is stupid. I bet if we was a a hardcore liberal people it wouldst have made a difference. But it shouldn't make a difference anyway. 
Also, the dude that wrote the Narnia books was a devout Christian as well. That's why, you know, The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is essentialy a metaphor for the sacrifice of Jesus.

nonoon, i buy things from people i don't support because i am open minded, not because i'm a spineless pussy with no sense of self-control. 

" That is stupid. I bet if we was a a hardcore liberal people it wouldst have made a difference. But it shouldn't make a difference anyway.  Also, the dude that wrote the Narnia books was a devout Christian as well. That's why, you know, The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is essentialy a metaphor for the sacrifice of Jesus. "