#451 Posted by Chaser324 (6744 posts) -

@turambar said:

It's hard for people having discussions about sensitive subjects (another way of saying "something actually important") to develop proper etiquette when the opportunity to practice such discussions rarely arise. I don't mean to pick on you specifically, so please don't take offense at the example, but I get the feeling if you and your friends regularly had discussions regarding your political views, it would be much easier to establish level headed discussions, than rare conversations where emotions just boil over the top.

That may be true in some cases, but the bottom line is that I know a lot of people that develop such overly dogmatic views fueled by their culture, social circle, and cable news that it really is impossible to have any civil discussion with them. Some people just aren't willing to concede that they might be wrong about anything, and they will relentlessly defend those views.

Maybe things would be better if those people did start debating and discussing these issues at a younger age, and they had a good example to follow for how to properly have those discussions (i.e. teachers, parents, etc...anything except cable news).

Moderator
#452 Posted by TruthTellah (9478 posts) -

@turambar said:

@hunter5024 said:

@turambar said:

"Never speak of politics in polite company" is probably a fairly familiar phrase to many, and sentiments such as that lie at the core of the problem that is of our own making. Our society have become one that depends on a well informed citizenry to allow for institutions to function, and in the same breath discourage people from discussing the politics and policies that allow for such information to come into being.

It is difficult to "know what the fuck you're talking about" when society at large seem to shy away from talking about it. Discussions of politics should be on the lips of everyone in the world, but the exact opposite seems much closer to the ideal world in many's minds.

Which is pretty funny, considering I'm never willing to talk about politics with my friends because I get annoyed when people have strong opinions about things that they don't even bother to inform themselves about. So the only way to educate them is to talk about it, but talking about it with someone who hasn't been educated is just frustrating. Quite an annoying problem. Not that I'm some expert or anything, but the fact that I mostly know what's happening and why is more than I can say for the friends I was speaking with.

It's hard for people having discussions about sensitive subjects (another way of saying "something actually important") to develop proper etiquette when the opportunity to practice such discussions rarely arise. I don't mean to pick on you specifically, so please don't take offense at the example, but I get the feeling if you and your friends regularly had discussions regarding your political views, it would be much easier to establish level headed discussions, than rare conversations where emotions just boil over the top.

I can attest to this having some effect. Over the years, I've gotten in many discussions and arguments with friends and family over sensitive subjects such as politics and religion, and fortunately, even when people can talk in the extreme at times, we can usually bring things back down to a more reasonable back and forth.

It helps that they know from experience that I am interested in their views and want to resolve any misunderstanding. When that isn't clear and there is a lack of faith regarding someone's motives and education, it can be very easy to just see someone else as a representation of the people you disagree with instead of the individual you're actually disagreeing with. Regularly having discussions on various topics, even briefly, can have a big effect in the long term toward improving each other's etiquette and level of understanding in arguments like this.

#453 Posted by Turambar (6898 posts) -
#454 Posted by Nictel (2440 posts) -
#455 Posted by SathingtonWaltz (2053 posts) -

The law has fucked me over pretty hard. I was uninsured before, but now I'm being forced to shell out money that I don't have. My hours were cut at work from 40 to 29, making me (and most everyone else at my job) part-time employee's. So basically, I've got more expenditures per month to pay and less income to do so with. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, might have to find a second job now I guess.

#456 Posted by K9 (621 posts) -

Here is some detailed information, now in video form, of what would happen if the U.S. government were to default on its debt come October 17.

#457 Posted by ArtelinaRose (1857 posts) -

The law has fucked me over pretty hard. I was uninsured before, but now I'm being forced to shell out money that I don't have. My hours were cut at work from 40 to 29, making me (and most everyone else at my job) part-time employee's. So basically, I've got more expenditures per month to pay and less income to do so with. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, might have to find a second job now I guess.

I live in a city with a shipyard and pretty much everyone is either furloughed, or is working for IOUs. They don't get paid until this whole thing passes and when they do get paid, it's a giant paycheck all at once which ends up being taxed more which ends up being less money than they would have made before and they're already on 20% pay cuts.

#458 Posted by Patman99 (1620 posts) -

The law has fucked me over pretty hard. I was uninsured before, but now I'm being forced to shell out money that I don't have. My hours were cut at work from 40 to 29, making me (and most everyone else at my job) part-time employee's. So basically, I've got more expenditures per month to pay and less income to do so with. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, might have to find a second job now I guess.

I'm not an American nor do I fully understand the intricacies of your healthcare system but it seems off that the government wouldn't have some sort of safety net for those who cannot afford basic health insurance. This site makes it seem like if you are below the poverty level you are either eligible for Medicaid or for some subsidies depending on your state. I hope you live in one of those states that support the program because having work hours cut really sucks. Good luck, duder.

#459 Edited by MildMolasses (3229 posts) -

The law has fucked me over pretty hard. I was uninsured before, but now I'm being forced to shell out money that I don't have. My hours were cut at work from 40 to 29, making me (and most everyone else at my job) part-time employee's. So basically, I've got more expenditures per month to pay and less income to do so with. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, might have to find a second job now I guess.

It sure must be nice to know that your employer cares so little about you that they will basically pretend you don't exists in case something bad happens to you

#460 Posted by Crembaw (530 posts) -

When does the revolution start?

#461 Posted by Ben_H (3440 posts) -

@crembaw said:

When does the revolution start?

October 18th.

#462 Edited by spraynardtatum (3716 posts) -

@ben_h: I'll bring the popcorn!

#463 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@ben_h said:

@crembaw said:

When does the revolution start?

October 18th.

#464 Posted by oldenglishC (1008 posts) -

Us fine folks in Michigan are doing our part to make the "shut down" a little easier for people.

#465 Edited by SomeDeliCook (2341 posts) -

I just moved into a new apartment on the 28th of last month. My wife is in the national guard and is currently in schooling for a new job for the military across the country from me. We get separation pay every 15 days which comes out to our exact rent. Plus the money we both make is tripled that. So we had more than enough to pay for rent and utilities and buy new furniture etc etc. for our first place together with no roommates. she isn't done until December and her car broke down and it was an 1100 dollar fix. She isn't considered active therefore she may not be getting a paycheck until whenever. So now it's two of us living off of just my paycheck plus we JUST signed a lease. This shutdown was poorly timed in our case (not that there would ever be a good time). Sorry to ramble on a bit I just need to vent. Also I'm on my iPhone so sorry if this is a giant block of ugly text. Also my sympathy to everyone else negatively affected by this whole mess.

#466 Edited by SathingtonWaltz (2053 posts) -

@mildmolasses said:

@sathingtonwaltz said:

The law has fucked me over pretty hard. I was uninsured before, but now I'm being forced to shell out money that I don't have. My hours were cut at work from 40 to 29, making me (and most everyone else at my job) part-time employee's. So basically, I've got more expenditures per month to pay and less income to do so with. I'm not sure what I'm going to do, might have to find a second job now I guess.

It sure must be nice to know that your employer cares so little about you that they will basically pretend you don't exists in case something bad happens to you

Maybe they shouldn't have written the ACA with such an obvious and glaring exploit? Maybe some employers legitimately aren't able to afford it? Why the fuck would you even say this to me?

#467 Edited by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

Your employer should have been in the business of providing your health care to begin with but that is ancient history. However to have businesses complain "business is hard!" goes against capitalism as well. Pick your poison where the solution doesn't seem to be "ignore it".

If it is really too expensive to run a business because workers are too expensive to hire then they need to act like a business and put their money where their mouth is. If they can only afford to pay a living wage and pay out health care to half of their hired employees then how ethical was it to hire so many?

#468 Edited by Marokai (3150 posts) -

@turambar said:

@hunter5024 said:

So... this sucks. Like the one hope I had for this situation is that maybe it would be dire enough to force people to educate themselves instead of just blaming the party they hate more. However after having a conversation with my friends they're convinced this is Obama's fault even after I explained what happened. I don't even know where they got their republican mindset, because half of them hold obviously liberal beliefs, so maybe they just believe what their parents told them to? I'm not even a democrat, I think both parties are terrible. Just ugh. This is why I hate all of those commercials that tell people to get out and vote because their opinion matters. If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about, maybe don't vote idiot.

"Never speak of politics in polite company" is probably a fairly familiar phrase to many, and sentiments such as that lie at the core of the problem that is of our own making. Our society have become one that depends on a well informed citizenry to allow for institutions to function, and in the same breath discourage people from discussing the politics and policies that allow for such information to come into being.

It is difficult to "know what the fuck you're talking about" when society at large seem to shy away from talking about it. Discussions of politics should be on the lips of everyone in the world, but the exact opposite seems much closer to the ideal world in many's minds.

Followed. Felt like this for years.

#469 Posted by TrafalgarLaw (1393 posts) -

Childish they can shut down the government like that, as far I'm concerned, republicans are devilspawn for denying goverment funded experimental medicine and therapy for terminally ill patients.

#470 Posted by GalacticPunt (1107 posts) -

@ben_h said:

@crembaw said:

When does the revolution start?

October 18th.

#471 Posted by Turambar (6898 posts) -
#472 Posted by jerseyscum (926 posts) -

http://drunkdialcongress.org/

If you're a federal employee and a Giant Bomb member....it's a safe assumption you're probably drunk right now. However, I cannot condone getting wasted on Southern Comfort and screaming at the bastards who closed the CDC and the NIH. And fucking WIC nutritional assistance for children.

#473 Posted by Animasta (14727 posts) -
#474 Posted by TruthTellah (9478 posts) -

@animasta said:

Post more funny things about the shutdown! because it seems that Boehner is finally realizing that he's fucked and is now trying to work with Obummer or something. I don't know I'm tired

Boehner is currently making efforts to get a deal to temporarily raise the debt ceiling, as he has said repeatedly that he wouldn't let it lapse and risk a default. This is mostly independent of shutdown concerns. Both President Obama and Boehner have gotten a lot of pressure from all sides to resolve the debt ceiling, and it's very likely to get worked out, at least temporarily. Every level of interest group and international power is wary of the ramifications of not increasing the debt ceiling.

Though, to be honest, I somewhat hope that a deal is not worked out by October 17th, as President Obama may be forced to use his authority to raise the debt ceiling himself. The Constitution seems rather clear that the full faith and credit of the United States can't be called into question; so, all debts both local and abroad must be paid for regardless of Congressional approval.

Now, there's a possibility that could leave him open to being impeached if it is found that he doesn't actually have that power, but it is very likely that he does have it. And if he uses it, it could finally prevent the need for any future debt ceiling talks and other countries would not have to worry again about the possibility of a default.

#475 Posted by Hunter5024 (5969 posts) -

@truthtellah: Whatever happened to the platinum bat-cave penny!

#476 Posted by Slag (4889 posts) -

Boehner is currently making efforts to get a deal to temporarily raise the debt ceiling, as he has said repeatedly that he wouldn't let it lapse and risk a default. This is mostly independent of shutdown concerns. Both President Obama and Boehner have gotten a lot of pressure from all sides to resolve the debt ceiling, and it's very likely to get worked out, at least temporarily. Every level of interest group and international power is wary of the ramifications of not increasing the debt ceiling.

Though, to be honest, I somewhat hope that a deal is not worked out by October 17th, as President Obama may be forced to use his authority to raise the debt ceiling himself. The Constitution seems rather clear that the full faith and credit of the United States can't be called into question; so, all debts both local and abroad must be paid for regardless of Congressional approval.

Now, there's a possibility that could leave him open to being impeached if it is found that he doesn't actually have that power, but it is very likely that he does have it. And if he uses it, it could finally prevent the need for any future debt ceiling talks and other countries would not have to worry again about the possibility of a default.

Votes on the Debt ceiling raises are ridiculous anyway. We are a reserve currency issuer. Precious few in congress or the voting public seem to understand the implication of that.

It's not like we have the same constraints a State or country like Greece has and yet people freak out about balanced federal budgets. For as much as people freak out about China dumping US Treasuries, they seem to utterly forget the fact that China has no virtually no choice but to continue buying them to keep the Yuan artificially devalued, otherwise their entire export economy will collapse. We're stuck with them and they are equally stuck with us.

That being said as much as I dislike this current congress I have no desire to see more power go to the executive branch.

#477 Posted by TruthTellah (9478 posts) -

@slag said:

@truthtellah said:

Boehner is currently making efforts to get a deal to temporarily raise the debt ceiling, as he has said repeatedly that he wouldn't let it lapse and risk a default. This is mostly independent of shutdown concerns. Both President Obama and Boehner have gotten a lot of pressure from all sides to resolve the debt ceiling, and it's very likely to get worked out, at least temporarily. Every level of interest group and international power is wary of the ramifications of not increasing the debt ceiling.

Though, to be honest, I somewhat hope that a deal is not worked out by October 17th, as President Obama may be forced to use his authority to raise the debt ceiling himself. The Constitution seems rather clear that the full faith and credit of the United States can't be called into question; so, all debts both local and abroad must be paid for regardless of Congressional approval.

Now, there's a possibility that could leave him open to being impeached if it is found that he doesn't actually have that power, but it is very likely that he does have it. And if he uses it, it could finally prevent the need for any future debt ceiling talks and other countries would not have to worry again about the possibility of a default.

Votes on the Debt ceiling raises are ridiculous anyway. We are a reserve currency issuer. Precious few in congress or the voting public seem to understand the implication of that.

It's not like we have the same constraints a State or country like Greece has and yet people freak out about balanced federal budgets. For as much as people freak out about China dumping US Treasuries, they seem to utterly forget the fact that China has no virtually no choice but to continue buying them to keep the Yuan artificially devalued, otherwise their entire export economy will collapse. We're stuck with them and they are equally stuck with us.

That being said as much as I dislike this current congress I have no desire to see more power go to the executive branch.

We're definitely in a very different situation from one like Greece, but it is true that we do have issues if the debt to GDP gets too high. There continue to be debates on what ratio is best, but I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that the US government continues on an unsustainable path of debt development. While there isn't a need to undo the debt already obtained, it makes perfect sense to try to reign in the rate of debt growth and possibly even get near a balanced budget again.

The debt limit is an artificial fight which appears unnecessary. Yet, even the current White House and past Presidencies haven't believed that enough to really buck the trend of negotiating new debt ceiling increases. So, while I personally believe that it is an unnecessary fight based on the fact that we must pay for any debts agreed to, I must admit that I am in no way as informed as the President and his office on this matter. Thus, it is possible they are aware of some technicality I am not aware of and are acting accordingly. I kind of hope that they are pushed to have to clarify it at some point for future Presidencies, but I suppose I can understand why a precedence of treating it differently may lead them to continue to believe that Congress must, or at least should, give approval of a debt limit.

#478 Posted by K9 (621 posts) -

Everyone needs to see this:

Basically the federal government can't reopen now until the GOP says so.

#480 Posted by jimmyfenix (3753 posts) -

As a non american i see this whole situation as a very tense season finale of the west wing.

Also more fox news vs Jon stewart videos are always welcome.

#481 Edited by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@k9:

Is there any practical reason for those huge flashcards other than theatrics?

#482 Edited by Turambar (6898 posts) -

@jimmyfenix said:

As a non american i see this whole situation as a very tense season finale of the west wing.

Also more fox news vs Jon stewart videos are always welcome.

Well, this entire situation was in fact a 2 part West Wing episode in season 5. Not a very good set of episodes mind you.

#483 Posted by K9 (621 posts) -

@k9:

Is there any practical reason for those huge flashcards other than theatrics?

They all do it for the C-SPAN cameras. And yes, political theater too.

#484 Edited by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

At this point, I'm just amazed by the sheer ineptitude and audacity of the Republican members of Congress that seem completely unaware of the mockery they're making of themselves and their party.

#485 Edited by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

@hailinel said:

At this point, I'm just amazed by the sheer ineptitude and audacity of the Republican members of Congress that seem completely unaware of the mockery they're making of themselves and their party.

Its an echo chamber that effects both parties. They are convinced they are correct/wrong because they hear from each other they are absolutely correct/wrong from each other.

#486 Posted by jakob187 (21762 posts) -

@hailinel said:

At this point, I'm just amazed by the sheer ineptitude and audacity of the Republican members of Congress that seem completely unaware of the mockery they're making of themselves and their party.

I'm more amazed at the ineptitude of almost EVERYONE in the federal government. It's not just Republicans. Democrats are fucking idiots also. There are very few that have a good standpoint, and even then, they falter a ton.

When it comes down to it, this is what happens when you allow your government to have too much power. They are too busy bickering like schoolchildren on the playground while real people in a real country that they really are supposed to work for are getting treated like shit.

What I wouldn't give to see about 30 million people marching onto the White House lawn and reclaiming their goddamn country. However, since the federal government controls public education, they've done as much as possible to make sure the kids are educated either poorly or wrongly. In turn, they look to idolize someone like Lil' Wayne more than, say, Thomas Edison.

Burn it all down, start over. That's the only honest solution at this point.

#487 Posted by Video_Game_King (36272 posts) -

@jakob187 said:

What I wouldn't give to see about 30 million people marching onto the White House lawn and reclaiming their goddamn country.

Reclaim the country from the people you explicitly chose to rule it?

#488 Edited by believer258 (12205 posts) -

@hailinel: @jakob187: Burning it all down isn't the solution.

It's not just the Republicans that are dumb, Hailinel. Clearly there is no one up there smart enough or strong enough to do anything but bicker. Obama sucks. Congress sucks. We need new people in office, preferably all of which have a year's experience in minimum wage jobs.

#489 Posted by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

The Dems have a stronger leg to stand on so to speak. "Obamacare" maybe terribad but the way to revoke is not this way. Get control of Congress, which the GOP does not have. Get control of the White House, which the GOP does not have. Whine about it on the campaign trails. Do anything but this and this time with these bills and especially the debt ceiling.

To chose this fight now is just a way to get some political points for the people who are "the core" (for both parties no less) happy. It is a selfish game of chicken which rewards for reckless behavior instead of getting out of it.

#490 Posted by Hailinel (25205 posts) -

@hailinel: @jakob187: Burning it all down isn't the solution.

It's not just the Republicans that are dumb, Hailinel. Clearly there is no one up there smart enough or strong enough to do anything but bicker. Obama sucks. Congress sucks. We need new people in office, preferably all of which have a year's experience in minimum wage jobs.

Very true. Though, my comment was more geared toward the notion that the government shutdown was orchestrated as a negotiating tactic by congressional Republicans. Because clearly, the way to negotiate in the hopes of bringing down a new law that you don't like is to shut down the government and piss everyone that said shutdown affects off. As much as the Democrats have wrong with them (and they have plenty), they're not the ones that thought the tactic was a good idea.

#491 Posted by Animasta (14727 posts) -

@hailinel: @jakob187: Burning it all down isn't the solution.

It's not just the Republicans that are dumb, Hailinel. Clearly there is no one up there smart enough or strong enough to do anything but bicker. Obama sucks. Congress sucks. We need new people in office, preferably all of which have a year's experience in minimum wage jobs.

bicker? What else can the democrats do? If they capitulated to the republicans at any point in this process, then they can do this every time they don't like a bill. Which is pretty much any bill that includes spending for things that aren't part of the military.

This shutdown is entirely the republicans fault. No Democrat out there is saying that defaulting is a good idea, but they are plenty of republicans who are saying such things (most of them in the suicide caucus) Plus the republican poll numbers about the shutdown have been dropping the longer the shutdown's gone on.

I seriously want to know why you think the democrats are dumb.

#492 Edited by YoThatLimp (1938 posts) -

@hailinel: @jakob187: Burning it all down isn't the solution.

It's not just the Republicans that are dumb, Hailinel. Clearly there is no one up there smart enough or strong enough to do anything but bicker. Obama sucks. Congress sucks. We need new people in office, preferably all of which have a year's experience in minimum wage jobs.

Term limits for congressmen and changes on how much money you can use for an election would really do wonders and get people who want to do their civic duty a chance at doing so.

#493 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3906 posts) -

@animasta said:

@believer258 said:

@hailinel: @jakob187: Burning it all down isn't the solution.

It's not just the Republicans that are dumb, Hailinel. Clearly there is no one up there smart enough or strong enough to do anything but bicker. Obama sucks. Congress sucks. We need new people in office, preferably all of which have a year's experience in minimum wage jobs.

bicker? What else can the democrats do? If they capitulated to the republicans at any point in this process, then they can do this every time they don't like a bill. Which is pretty much any bill that includes spending for things that aren't part of the military.

This shutdown is entirely the republicans fault. No Democrat out there is saying that defaulting is a good idea, but they are plenty of republicans who are saying such things (most of them in the suicide caucus) Plus the republican poll numbers about the shutdown have been dropping the longer the shutdown's gone on.

I seriously want to know why you think the democrats are dumb.

Do you honestly see that happening? Don't you think that just about everyone would loathe any political party who did that? Do you think this might have a little more to do with the fact that this is a social program which pretty much eliminates the chances of it ever being stopped once it started?

Imagine a Republican bill to use taxpayer money to pay for low-cost guns for every household in America. And on top of that, the bill would fine any household in America who didn't own a gun. And now imagine that once that bill was passed, it would be almost impossible to repeal. And finally, imagine how hard Democrats would fight that bill.

Of course, it's insane to suggest that anyone be fined for not owning a gun, but it's not much more insane to suggest that people should be fined for not wanting to be forced to buy healthcare. Healthcare is a GOOD thing, but that doesn't mean it should be FORCED on anyone who doesn't have the money to pay for it, or doesn't WANT to pay for it. And this "affordable" care act is arguably anything but for some people.

If Democrats want free healthcare for everyone in America that's fine, but they need to "Dave it up" and find another way to come up with the money, not just continue to drive us further and further into debt. An actual universal healthcare program would be better than this "forcing you to buy healthcare" crap that so many people seem to be willing to accept, at least if we could at the same time find a way to stop spending ourselves towards financial ruin.

If only, you sweet, naive, idealistic movie.

While we're making crazy wishes, how about not allowing congress to opt-out of ANY social program that they stick the rest of us with?

#494 Posted by getmeon19 (4 posts) -

Wait what? I don't understand this really

#495 Posted by benpicko (2006 posts) -
#496 Edited by Turambar (6898 posts) -
#497 Posted by MB (13138 posts) -

A friend of mine was furloughed from her job at the NNSA due to the shutdown, and she and her husband are freaking out. He lost his job several months ago and still isn't working...they've been in the red and barely making it since then...now, all of a sudden there is zero income. They could lose their house over this.

Moderator
#498 Posted by Funkydupe (3321 posts) -

:(

How long can it stay like this? Something has got to give.

#499 Posted by TheHT (11802 posts) -

@mb said:

A friend of mine was furloughed from her job at the NNSA due to the shutdown, and she and her husband are freaking out. He lost his job several months ago and still isn't working...they've been in the red and barely making it since then...now, all of a sudden there is zero income. They could lose their house over this.

B-b-but Obamacare is one of the worst laws in the history of America, nay, THE WORLD!

#500 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4893 posts) -

@theht said:

@mb said:

A friend of mine was furloughed from her job at the NNSA due to the shutdown, and she and her husband are freaking out. He lost his job several months ago and still isn't working...they've been in the red and barely making it since then...now, all of a sudden there is zero income. They could lose their house over this.

B-b-but Obamacare is one of the worst laws in the history of America, nay, THE WORLD!

... It actually is when compared to socialized medicine. The whole law is batshit nuts. It bends over for just about everyone and still manages to bend the general public over a barrel.