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#101 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11918 posts) -

This guy is never going to get out of prison. Never. They'll keep him there, if even on technicalities, for the rest of his miserable life.

#102 Posted by BaconGames (3488 posts) -

What matters at the end of the day is that he'll be harmless when he gets out of prison. If he isn't, then the justice system in Norway has failed, it he harmless then its done its job. It is a very real part of human history that punishment and sanctions against behavior, especially ones like murder of ones' own countrymen, are about more than statistics and maintaining a peaceful society. We can judge whether that's right or not all day but the reality of criminal justice is that its a constant push-pull between efficacy and justice. We will likely be talking about this man again when he gets released (because people love to make news) in which certain people will lament the system and others praise it. Its a classic conflict between soft and hard ballers and we see it in almost every single issue. Its what practically defines the political spectrum.

Statistically a vast majority of criminals do their crimes as young men. There is a popular idea in criminology that sentences remove people from society long enough so that they "age out" of criminal behavior or circumstances. Its a tragedy what this man did but we like to pour all our individual understandings and ideas into people like Anders because they seemingly represent enigmatic and/or deviant absolutes. Its an opportunity to express our views and reaffirm that we stand behind whatever line we drew in the sand. My point is that because people can't not help investing themselves in the actions of others, it is incredibly difficult for us to dismiss or otherwise ignore it when someone goes out of their way to kill a lot of people. Hence why the push-pull between efficacy and justice continues to roll on.

The real story is that its another case, another blip on the social radar, among many in the complicated world we live in.

#103 Posted by LibraryDues (343 posts) -

@TheHT said:

@Animasta said:

@TheHT: an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind

(also the death penalty is just as expensive as life in prison for developed countries)

An eye for an eye makes the whole world one-eyed and obedient.

Is that the 'very good reason' though? Money?

Norway's more lenient, rehabilitation-focused corrections system has produced a shockingly low recidivism rate. Around 20% of their convicts reoffend after release (America's rate, for example, is around 60%). Will that do?

#104 Posted by Mikemcn (6997 posts) -

I know that he will be in jail for much longer than 21 years, but on paper, 21 years for 77 murders seems fucking absurd, that's less than 4 months jailtime for every person he killed.

#105 Posted by TheHT (11526 posts) -

@LibraryDues said:

@TheHT said:

@Animasta said:

@TheHT: an eye for an eye makes the whole world go blind

(also the death penalty is just as expensive as life in prison for developed countries)

An eye for an eye makes the whole world one-eyed and obedient.

Is that the 'very good reason' though? Money?

Norway's more lenient, rehabilitation-focused corrections system has produced a shockingly low recidivism rate. Around 20% of their convicts reoffend after release (America's rate, for example, is around 60%). Will that do?

That's not the very good reason the death penalty is abolished in most developed countries, that's a context-free statement correlating a specific prison system to recidivism rates without a source.

I want to see this very good reason that the death penalty has completely abolished in most developed countries. I was hoping it would have some moral argument component to it as well.

#106 Edited by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -

Norway is fucked regarding its prison sentences. I remember being amazed that sociopath Varg Vikernes only got sentenced to 21 years, then got out after 14 for good behavior. Sadly this was just expected. Perhaps in 21 years, when he WILL get out, some vigilante will take justice into his own hands since the system can't be trusted to dispense any.
 
Also yeah, Norway prisons are pretty sweet. At least according to this documentary I watched. If there's any place to commit a murder, it's Norway.

#107 Posted by Korolev (1714 posts) -

Well he clearly wasn't insane. He was simply willing to cause harm and grief in the name of his political philosophies, which, as evil as they are, aren't actually crazy. The man is like a neo-nazi, and the Nazis weren't crazy. Evil, yes, crazy, no.

It was the right decision - he wasn't insane. Everyone could see that - the way he meticulously planned his attack, the reasons he gave for his attack, the way he acted in court - he clearly WASN'T insane. He's just evil.

To call him insane is wrong, and an insult to all those who genuinely suffer from mental illness. He should be in prison. As to whether or not he'll ever get out, I don't think so. Yes, Norway has a lenient system, but they are not going to be lenient for a man who tried to blow up the government. No nation would do that. He's going to jail for the rest of his life, and that's where he belongs. If by some miracle he ever gets out, I'll give him 48 hours before he's shanked or shot in the street.

#108 Edited by PolygonSlayer (430 posts) -

@TheHT: The death penalty does not make our society more peaceful, but makes it more brutal. No one should have the right to kill anyone else, not even the government. In fact, having the government killing people essentially makes everyone who voted for that government killers as well. It brings a society down to the level of the killer and sends the wrong message to everyone and especially young people growing up in such a society.

There is no evidence that it works as a deterrent to crime.

It violates the primary right to life as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Many times the death penalty is discriminatory against poor people and minorities.

It is often used as a tool by governments to eliminate political opposition.

Wrongful executions.

Those are some of the reasons that the majority of the developed world has chosen to abolish it.

(If you really want statistics etc, use google, please. It does not harm to actually look up stuff yourself as well and not expect everything on a silver platter, especially on a forum).

A few sources for you anyway: http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/case-against-death-penalty

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-about-deterrence-and-death-penalty

#109 Edited by sparks50 (373 posts) -

As a Norwegian, I don't think this will be easily forgotten, so I would be surprised if he gets out before the 21 years.

The death penalty is exactly what this kind of terrorist wants, to be made a martyr. But if we actually wanted to punish this guy, then perhaps people should stop buying papers writing up and down about this guy's every thought and move. As a bonus you would probably save some lives later by avoiding to recruit for more mass murderers.

#110 Posted by TheHT (11526 posts) -

@PolygonSlayer said:

@TheHT: The death penalty does not make our society more peaceful, but makes it more brutal. No one should have the right to kill anyone else, not even the government. In fact, having the government killing people essentially makes everyone who voted for that government killers as well. It brings a society down to the level of the killer and sends the wrong message to everyone and especially young people growing up in such a society.

There is no evidence that it works as a deterrent to crime.

It violates the primary right to life as stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Many times the death penalty is discriminatory against poor people and minorities.

It is often used as a tool by governments to eliminate political opposition.

Wrongful executions.

Those are some of the reasons that the majority of the developed world has chosen to abolish it.

(If you really want statistics etc, use google, please. It does not harm to actually look up stuff yourself as well and not expect everything on a silver platter, especially on a forum).

A few sources for you anyway: http://www.aclu.org/capital-punishment/case-against-death-penalty

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/facts-about-deterrence-and-death-penalty

Of course I could do the research myself, but if I'm replying to someone, asking them to elaborate on their point, researching your answer myself defeats the entire point of conversing with you in the first place.

Why don't we have the right to kill anyone else, ever?

In what way does executing a serial killer make the society that allowed it to happen essentially equal to that very serial killer? What about the message that there are certain crimes so heinous and offensive that those guilty of such a crime have forsworn their supposed right to an existence is so wrong?

Should deterrence be the only deciding factor?

Appealing to another human-made set of rights only passes the question on to that set of rights. Why should everyone have a primary right to life? Why should it be unconditional?

If a government wants someone dead, there are other ways to do so without appealing to a death penalty.

Wrongful executions isn't a point against the death penalty itself, only the details of its application (scope, requirements, etc.).

I should probably say, these aren't rhetorical questions.

#111 Posted by PolygonSlayer (430 posts) -

@TheHT: Look, I have no belief in that talking to someone on a gaming forum I will change their thinking on the death penalty.

Personally I think it is morally wrong and for the reasons I mentioned I am happy to see that the developed world is in fact moving more and more away from this barbaric and primitive type of punishment. If you don't see this then there isn't much I can say to convince you if you don't want to read up on it yourself. I have in no way the time to sit down and "convert" you, but would recommend you read up on it some more if you actually care about it.

#112 Posted by TheHT (11526 posts) -

@PolygonSlayer said:

@TheHT: Look, I have no belief in that talking to someone on a gaming forum I will change their thinking on the death penalty.

Personally I think it is morally wrong and for the reasons I mentioned I am happy to see that the developed world is in fact moving more and more away from this barbaric and primitive type of punishment. If you don't see this then there isn't much I can say to convince you if you don't want to read up on it yourself. I have in no way the time to sit down and "convert" you, but would recommend you read up on it some more if you actually care about it.

Well I don't expect you to convince me. I just want to pick and prod at the reasons you believe it to try and better understand your position.

And I never said I didn't want to read up on it myself, I'd just rather communicate with someone about it, like on a forum. But if you haven't got the time, no worry.

#113 Edited by bybeach (4899 posts) -

I doubt the Norwegians ever set him free. No agenda can offset the pain of the loss of all those children, right or left.. A hue and cry willl be raised when the first 21 years comes to a close.

As for declaring him insane, I would have loved for it to be so because it was what Breivik dreaded. Unfortunately I think they were right in determining he was sane. Mentally ill to the max to be sure, but still sane. Now that Loughner guy who shot those ppl. in Arizona, he is more classic insane, chemically unbalanced. Kind of sad they had to pump meds into him till he got a glimmering of his actions and felt remorse, as much grief for his victims as I feel. I suspect he probably was in the last stage of sanity when he shot all those ppl. and then just mentally let go.

Just what I personally think, but I do not think the Norwegians will ever accept Breivik's presence among them again, even those who are more comitted to what I term agendas (right or left) than the common sense reality of a given situation.