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Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

Now I've been in a lot of internet arguments, and this is specifically a response to one about Anita (still can't remember how to say her last name), but this has nothing to do with her and everything to do with how arguments are on the internet. I'm not here to say they're worthless or anything, they can be enlightening if you come into it as a discussion rather than an argument, but there's lots of people arguing for the sake of arguing. Specifically I think people get too serious about them, on both sides. I do it too, even though I know better. I think there's like, at least 3 things you should get down with knowing before arguing with someone on hte internet.

1. Don't go in with preconceived notions.

now, this is specifically a response to people saying "oh hey, look it's animasta I don't see why you bother" and while that may be true or not, depending on how you feel about it and about me, that's still a shitty thing to mention. It's entirely possible for the argumentee to have changed their style, changed their views, whatever, and to hold something they've done in the past does a disservice to the argument. I mean I kinda have preconcieved notions like is going to be argumentative towards me on purpose or fucking whatever, but I never say that, because maybe he'll have an actual salient point now and again (I love you :)

(and yes I realize I am being highly hypocritical here but I specifically meant the person not the thing you're arguing for/against)

2. Don't be afraid to admit you are wrong

I mean, fuck, who really cares? I get that some people hate to admit wrongness ever, but an internet argument barely matters. Do you all remember that stupid mass effect 3 thing I posted eariler in the year? I doubt it. I get that in the heat of the moment, you might hate just stepping away, but if it's getting annoying, personal, whatever, then just drop it; it'll be easier on you and, to be honest, if it was getting that bad that you needed to drop it, the other party probably wasn't looking to change their mind anyway. Or they're just trolling you for some lulz or whatever trolls troll you for nowadays.

3. BE COOL

Never get personal! I mean, it's hard to get especially personal on the internet anyway, but don't start as that never works in your favor. Insults either, calling someone an idiot for not sharing your viewpoint doesn't help anyone. Don't even get personal if you're discussing a person, unless you absolutely need to (the wardell shit kinda needed to be personal, considering the charges against him, but you get my point) it's like, if you can't discuss something without resorting to name calling than either you need to learn how to argue better, or your position wasn't that great anyway and you should probably just let it be.

also people should pick their battles, having another fucking 300 post argument about anita, AGAIN, is fucking silly, because everyone's said what everyone's thoughts are previously, and it's getting really annoying. Wait until she fucking starts swimming in her money scrooge mcduck style (or at least for a video)

What I'm sayin is chill man, this is the internet, this is not the debate club

also this blog was written when I was really tired so yeah, apologies for the terrible grammar

#1 Edited by Animasta (14648 posts) -

Now I've been in a lot of internet arguments, and this is specifically a response to one about Anita (still can't remember how to say her last name), but this has nothing to do with her and everything to do with how arguments are on the internet. I'm not here to say they're worthless or anything, they can be enlightening if you come into it as a discussion rather than an argument, but there's lots of people arguing for the sake of arguing. Specifically I think people get too serious about them, on both sides. I do it too, even though I know better. I think there's like, at least 3 things you should get down with knowing before arguing with someone on hte internet.

1. Don't go in with preconceived notions.

now, this is specifically a response to people saying "oh hey, look it's animasta I don't see why you bother" and while that may be true or not, depending on how you feel about it and about me, that's still a shitty thing to mention. It's entirely possible for the argumentee to have changed their style, changed their views, whatever, and to hold something they've done in the past does a disservice to the argument. I mean I kinda have preconcieved notions like is going to be argumentative towards me on purpose or fucking whatever, but I never say that, because maybe he'll have an actual salient point now and again (I love you :)

(and yes I realize I am being highly hypocritical here but I specifically meant the person not the thing you're arguing for/against)

2. Don't be afraid to admit you are wrong

I mean, fuck, who really cares? I get that some people hate to admit wrongness ever, but an internet argument barely matters. Do you all remember that stupid mass effect 3 thing I posted eariler in the year? I doubt it. I get that in the heat of the moment, you might hate just stepping away, but if it's getting annoying, personal, whatever, then just drop it; it'll be easier on you and, to be honest, if it was getting that bad that you needed to drop it, the other party probably wasn't looking to change their mind anyway. Or they're just trolling you for some lulz or whatever trolls troll you for nowadays.

3. BE COOL

Never get personal! I mean, it's hard to get especially personal on the internet anyway, but don't start as that never works in your favor. Insults either, calling someone an idiot for not sharing your viewpoint doesn't help anyone. Don't even get personal if you're discussing a person, unless you absolutely need to (the wardell shit kinda needed to be personal, considering the charges against him, but you get my point) it's like, if you can't discuss something without resorting to name calling than either you need to learn how to argue better, or your position wasn't that great anyway and you should probably just let it be.

also people should pick their battles, having another fucking 300 post argument about anita, AGAIN, is fucking silly, because everyone's said what everyone's thoughts are previously, and it's getting really annoying. Wait until she fucking starts swimming in her money scrooge mcduck style (or at least for a video)

What I'm sayin is chill man, this is the internet, this is not the debate club

also this blog was written when I was really tired so yeah, apologies for the terrible grammar

#2 Posted by DarthOrange (3851 posts) -

Good discussions are formed when you disagree with someone and argue your point as to why you are correct. Part of that requires both sides to be willing to admit defeat if they see the other had a better argument, but often times people are crazy stubborn and think only one thing because fuck everyone else. We have all been guilty of it at one point or another but at the end of the day on Giant Bomb forums cooler heads usually prevail.

#3 Posted by Hunter5024 (5536 posts) -

Does the Mass Effect 3 thing have to do with the reversible cover? Cause that was pretty dumb, but you're still cool. I think the Anita Sarkeesian issue is just too touchy of a subject for rational arguments to be plausible. People are guilty, bitter, pissed, insulted, and even afraid on both sides of the argument, and all for understandable reasons. With that much emotion in it it's too hard for people to debate the subject without it becoming a fight.

Online
#4 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

Before I start, I just want to say that I'm not trying to be rude.

I've noticed that whenever there is a thread concerning women in gaming, you jump right in and attack anyone you identify as sexist. There have even been cases where people aren't being misogynistic and you essentially rip their throats out. It's easy to tell that you're highly emotional when you post your responses. You were probably pounding the shit out of your keyboard when you typed this, someone must've pissed you off quite a bit. What I'm trying to say is, you should really practice what you're preaching here.

#5 Posted by TeflonBilly (4713 posts) -

@BraveToaster said:

Before I start, I just want to say that I'm not trying to be rude.

I've noticed that whenever there is a thread concerning women in gaming, you jump right in and attack anyone you identify as sexist. There have even been cases where people aren't being misogynistic and you essentially rip their throats out. It's easy to tell that you're highly emotional when you post your responses. You were probably pounding the shit out of your keyboard when you typed this, someone must've pissed you off quite a bit. What I'm trying to say is, you should really practice what you're preaching here.

This

I actually enjoy a lot of your other posts. You have a keen insight on games like Binary Domain and Persona. And contrary to popular belief I LOVE being proved factually wrong about something or just being showed an opposing viewpoint I can ynderstand, not nessecarily agree with, but at the very least identify with. It's the only way you can actually take something as stupid as an internet argument as learning experience and apply it to yourself and grow as a person rather than let it rot your soul even more.

The problem is that everybody with a passing knowledge about prolific posters on this board have noticed this pattern and your attitude on every topic that even tangentially touches upon gender topics have become parodies of themselves. This happens way too often and is too often way to reactionary. I'm not even saying that you don't have a salient point at times, but it's become like the boy who cried wolf. I just get serious Bill O'Reilly douchechills when you tear into your rhetoric each and every time and always with such vile and venom.

On a personal note, I would like t apologize for comparing you to Levio91 and Governmentcheese. Outside of your indiscretions when it comes to anything related with women in gaming, I enjoy seeing your posts and felt bad about trying to make you feel unwanted (Which I admit was the point of saying that) and for that I do apologize.

Also, I really should try to steer away from Sarkeesian threads, but I honestly do feel passionate about how I feel she is really not helping anyone, but her own wallet with this ordeal and she has shown no redeeming qualities to me. I feel she is actively hurting a subject I do feel is important. I think Leigh Alexander is a terrible woman and I find a lot of her personal behavior and interactions outside of her being terrible on the Bombcast really awful. However, I will never deny her talent. I used to lament the loss of talented and interesting women in game journalism like Kathleen Sanders, Carrie Gouskous and Jennifer Tsao whenever we would have her bi-monthly bitchfests about her, but I've given her a proper objective read and have to admit that she is not only not terrible, but actually very good at times. Real recognizes real, ya feel?

And it's obvious that we don't share the same humour, but much like that innocent asshole Wardell, I ain't gonna apologize for that.

#6 Posted by CaLe (3910 posts) -

Your post made me notice how I always approach relatively long forum posts. I almost never read them from start to finish. I'll just start at some random place and try to figure out the gist of what's being said.

On topic: uhh ... nope, I got nothing.

#7 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8698 posts) -

That's the fuck of it though.
 
You go on stage and hold a world changing speech.
 
Then you get backstage and the first headline on the news is: "Dude tells us to do something, isn't perfect himself either." 
 
Not that that changes the validity of your made point but people will never accept anything being told to them by another humanbeing (lets not start about Gods, bibles or TheVideoGameKing).

#8 Posted by Hunter5024 (5536 posts) -

@CaLe said:

Your post made me notice how I always approach relatively long forum posts. I almost never read them from start to finish. I'll just start at some random place and try to figure out the gist of what's being said.

On topic: uhh ... nope, I got nothing.

That's the only way to read them.

Online
#9 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

I like hamsters myself.

#10 Posted by Brodehouse (9576 posts) -
@BraveToaster Agreed. This set of suggestions is correct, so I wonder why the OP makes such knee-jerk emotional posts that immediately jump to conclusions. Not trying to provoke, just find it rings false.
#11 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@BraveToaster

Before I start, I just want to say that I'm not trying to be rude.

I've noticed that whenever there is a thread concerning women in gaming, you jump right in and attack anyone you identify as sexist. There have even been cases where people aren't being misogynistic and you essentially rip their throats out. It's easy to tell that you're highly emotional when you post your responses. You were probably pounding the shit out of your keyboard when you typed this, someone must've pissed you off quite a bit. What I'm trying to say is, you should really practice what you're preaching here.

Truth.
#12 Posted by TruthTellah (8517 posts) -

Are you drunk?

Because you sound perfectly reasonable and possibly even considerate of how others feel regardless of how different they are from yourself.

#13 Posted by DeeGee (2113 posts) -

@BraveToaster said:

Before I start, I just want to say that I'm not trying to be rude.

I've noticed that whenever there is a thread concerning women in gaming, you jump right in and attack anyone you identify as sexist. There have even been cases where people aren't being misogynistic and you essentially rip their throats out. It's easy to tell that you're highly emotional when you post your responses. You were probably pounding the shit out of your keyboard when you typed this, someone must've pissed you off quite a bit. What I'm trying to say is, you should really practice what you're preaching here.

This is pretty much what I came in here to post.

#14 Posted by Chop (1994 posts) -

Or you can take the second, better option and just stop posting when someone tries to goad you. People need to learn that you don't have to respond to EVERYTHING.

#15 Posted by HistoryInRust (6274 posts) -

@Chop said:

Or you can take the second, better option and just stop posting when someone tries to goad you. People need to learn that you don't have to respond to EVERYTHING.

This, guys. This.

#16 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@BraveToaster: haven't done that in a while, which is what I'm saying. I've been arguing with the whole anita thing from the start saying not to jump on her unnecessarily.

also your transphobic but I never bring THAT up either so...

#17 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

@Animasta said:

also your transphobic but I never bring THAT up either so...

You're damn right I am. I'm also stupid, so you're going to have to elaborate and tell me what that has to do with my response.

#18 Posted by TyCobb (1945 posts) -

Pot calling the kettle black.

#19 Posted by Mirado (990 posts) -

My advice is simple:

When arguing, don't do these.

Specfically the section on red herring fallacies. Real easy trap to fall into and be torn apart by.

#20 Edited by YI_Orange (1128 posts) -

People who think advice is worthless because the preacher doesn't practice it are being stupid. In my eyes, the best person to give advice is someone who doesn't practice it. That means they know they're wrong, they know they're flawed, they know there's a better way to do something. Also, you're entirely missing one of the points of the post. Ignore the poster(not always, and not 100%, but you get what I mean I hope), look at the post. Stop making things personal and just think about the text. If you disagree with the post, fine, but don't be a douche because of the person posting.

Edit - @TyCobb: Just because the pot is the same doesn't mean it's wrong for pointing out the kettle's flaws.

#21 Posted by JasonR86 (9604 posts) -

What I've noticed a lot is people ignore vast amounts of information contained within the text of the post they are aiming to argue against. The meaning of a perspective is lost if information is ignored. What the responding person ends up arguing with is then often boiled down to misinterpretations of half-read responses provided by the person the responding person has decided to yell at.

Many people also seem to think that they are funnier then they really are. They will come in to a thread that is supposed to lead to discussions and simply make some dumbass "joke" and run out waiting for member upon member to yell at them all the while laughing at the shit storm they've just created. I admit I've done this before so I can't point my finger at others without pointing the finger at myself as well. But it is a pointless thing to do. We have joke-based threads. Make your bad jokes in there.

Finally, there's a fundamental difference between debating and arguing. I'm too fucking old to argue. Arguing is a childish venture. If I want to talk about a serious topic I want to legitimately talk about that topic in an adult manner. I want to hear different perspectives while standing up for my own perspective. A serious thread should be a think-tank where clever, well-intentioned people come together to discuss a topic they all find interesting or feel passionate about. Arguing in these threads amounts individuals ignoring everyone else's perspective and screaming their own opinion the loudest until everyone gets tired of everyone else and the thread is either locked or ignored due to being so contentious and frustrating. I want to speak with adults here and not sniveling children who want to close their eyes and ears and yell their opinion the loudest until they "win".

#22 Posted by falserelic (5312 posts) -

Me personally I'm not the arguing type on the internet. I'm not going to let a random person bring out the inner demon within me.

#23 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

@YI_Orange said:

People who think advice is worthless because the preacher doesn't practice it are being stupid. In my eyes, the best person to give advice is someone who doesn't practice it. That means they know they're wrong, they know they're flawed, they know there's a better way to do something. Also, you're entirely missing one of the points of the post. Ignore the poster(not always, and not 100%, but you get what I mean I hope), look at the post. Stop making things personal and just think about the text. If you disagree with the post, fine, but don't be a douche because of the person posting.

Edit - @TyCobb: Just because the pot is the same doesn't mean it's wrong for pointing out the kettle's flaws.

No one said the advice was worthless, I'm not sure where you got that from.

#24 Posted by YI_Orange (1128 posts) -

@BraveToaster: Wow, you're right. I just looked back through the thread and feel like I read an entirely different set of posts the first time. I mean, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have made that post if I didn't that impression, but where I got it from is a hell of a good question. Apologies for my tone then(to everyone).

#25 Posted by Djnuttty (138 posts) -

Arguing on the internet is like arguing on a beach, even if you win you will still have sand in your vagina.

#26 Posted by Encephalon (1240 posts) -

Better advice: don't argue on the internet, about anything.

Take it from me, I've been trying it for about a month now, and I've never enjoyed the GB forums more.

#27 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

@Djnuttty said:

Arguing on the internet is like arguing on a beach, even if you win you will still have sand in your vagina.

Unless you're a man, because men don't have vaginas.

#28 Posted by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

#29 Posted by Djnuttty (138 posts) -

@PrivateIronTFU: I will not argue with you because I do not want sand anywhere in my body but you are probably right about men not having vaginas. I won't fight it.

#30 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

#31 Posted by Sbaitso (498 posts) -

I find it hard to argue on the internet because when I read through a thread like yesterday's, I notice that both sides have decent points and present them in an ok manner, but are simultaneously being such shitheads to each other that I want nothing to do with the discussion, even if I feel I have something to add. People should just remember that they're still conversing with other people when they're on the internet, and should show the appropriate amount of respect. Is it really so hard? Obviously nobody is innocent, but I hope threads like yesterday's and blog posts like this do something to remind us all to remain calm.

#32 Posted by Cloudenvy (5891 posts) -

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

Well, I won't say that I haven't met some less than pleasant people through PM's which is why I added the "reasonable people" part!

#33 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

@Cloudenvy said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

Well, I won't say that I haven't met some less than pleasant people through PM's which is why I added the "reasonable people" part!

That's true. I guess I've just been unlucky as of yet.

#34 Posted by AlexanderSheen (4928 posts) -

@Cloudenvy said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

Well, I won't say that I haven't met some less than pleasant people through PM's which is why I added the "reasonable people" part!

But sometimes those unpleasant people come up with something creative that makes you smile. Like when some guy called me a crazed sack-hugging GB apologist fangirl.

#35 Posted by Video_Game_King (35978 posts) -

I'm certain I've seen this topic before, and the fact that it had to come up again prompts this music out of me.

#36 Posted by JackSukeru (5903 posts) -

I seldom take part in any of the arguments about different things I see around here. I still feel that I've learned a lot by reading through those threads, unpleasant as they may be.

#37 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

@BraveToaster said:

Before I start, I just want to say that I'm not trying to be rude.

I've noticed that whenever there is a thread concerning women in gaming, you jump right in and attack anyone you identify as sexist. There have even been cases where people aren't being misogynistic and you essentially rip their throats out. It's easy to tell that you're highly emotional when you post your responses. You were probably pounding the shit out of your keyboard when you typed this, someone must've pissed you off quite a bit. What I'm trying to say is, you should really practice what you're preaching here.

This. We all know this feel

#38 Posted by HistoryInRust (6274 posts) -

@Encephalon said:

Better advice: don't argue on the internet, about anything.

Take it from me, I've been trying it for about a month now, and I've never enjoyed the GB forums more.

This is a great philosophy! I'll follow you for it!

#39 Edited by wjb (1636 posts) -

Maybe I'm out-of-touch and I don't find most things on YouTube as "important" to the overall gaming industry, but I don't think Anita Sarkeesian or whatever should have ever got as much attention as she had, on both sides. She's a dummy who convinced other dummies to give her money for her dummy project. People have their opinions -- which is fine -- but I always thought it was unnecessary to focus so much attention on someone who probably never mattered in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong, but unless she greatly affected my hobbies (which never would've happened), I doubt I would've gained much pleasure in watching her fall.

It's like Sarah Palin. For like, a month after the RNC convention in '08, people were mildly afraid of what she could have been capable of, but then, of course, the chances of her being Vice President were very slim once Election Day rolled around (John McCain as Prez, lol wut?). After that, some people still had this weird insistence in watching her fail, despite the fact that she wasn't in any governmental position and was mostly known for doing nothing.

I guess I don't need to be constantly reminded of how awful some nobody may be when it could be immediately obvious to anyone with a brain.

Apologies if I get any facts wrong and I don't mean to marginalize, but I guess I never understood why this was a big deal?

#40 Posted by Slag (3989 posts) -

@Animasta said:

1. Don't go in with preconceived notions.

...

2. Don't be afraid to admit you are wrong

....

3. BE COOL

In fairness to the internet, people have the same problems with regular conversations. Preconceived notions, confirmation bias, inability to error, you name it.Just not as obvious there imo and some subtle things like body language encourage more civil behavior.

The internet makes it a little easier to just shout over and over. The internet seems to be a place where everybody wants to talk but few want to listen. Which can make it hard to have a decent conversation. And since a lot of people don't read other comments in a thread, a lot of really pointless things tend to get said or repeated. Hopefully not including this comment

I hear ya though, don't have an answer for it and I am certainly not immune from these foibles you mentioned myself. fwiw I just tend to stay away from threads I know are going to bring out the stupid in people. Sometimes I can't resist, but usually I'm glad I don't get mixed up in it.

#41 Posted by AlexW00d (6180 posts) -

@AlexanderSheen said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

Well, I won't say that I haven't met some less than pleasant people through PM's which is why I added the "reasonable people" part!

But sometimes those unpleasant people come up with something creative that makes you smile. Like when some guy called me a crazed sack-hugging GB apologist fangirl.

The hell does sack-hugging mean?

#42 Posted by wjb (1636 posts) -

@AlexW00d said:

@AlexanderSheen said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

Well, I won't say that I haven't met some less than pleasant people through PM's which is why I added the "reasonable people" part!

But sometimes those unpleasant people come up with something creative that makes you smile. Like when some guy called me a crazed sack-hugging GB apologist fangirl.

The hell does sack-hugging mean?

You know....

...it's this, right?

#43 Edited by TyCobb (1945 posts) -

@YI_Orange: I was going off the other meaning. The pot sees its own reflection in the kettle; the kettle is perfectly clean.

Edit: Animasta, I liked your old avatar. You should bring that back. =)

#44 Posted by Doctorchimp (4069 posts) -

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Djnuttty said:

Arguing on the internet is like arguing on a beach, even if you win you will still have sand in your vagina.

Unless you're a man, because men don't have vaginas.

Stop being transphobic...

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

There was a weird swede or something that just had to let me know in a PM that Gaddafi was actually a really great man...

#45 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -
#46 Posted by LikeaSsur (1494 posts) -

@Napalm: You're not sorry at all. How dare you lie.

#47 Posted by Hailinel (23857 posts) -

@Doctorchimp said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Djnuttty said:

Arguing on the internet is like arguing on a beach, even if you win you will still have sand in your vagina.

Unless you're a man, because men don't have vaginas.

Stop being transphobic...

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Cloudenvy said:

@Encephalon: Best advice: only argue in PM's with reasonable people.

That's been my experience anyway!

Ugh, from my experience, the people that initiate PMs are always the fucking worst.

There was a weird swede or something that just had to let me know in a PM that Gaddafi was actually a really great man...

On more than one occasion, I've been attacked in PMs in which I had to forward the resulting conversation to a moderator, with the end result being the other guy being banned.

So I would strongly recommend that people be careful before they PM me. I may be cursed.

Online
#48 Edited by Demoskinos (14559 posts) -

Lets just hug it out guys.

#49 Posted by Jams (2959 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

Lets just hug it out guys.

NOW BODY SLAM HIM!

#50 Edited by EquitasInvictus (2004 posts) -

@Jams said:

@Demoskinos said:

Lets just hug it out guys.

NOW BODY SLAM HIM!

What have I missed from wrestling in the last few years?! EDIT: Never mind, I just watched the whole thing out of morbid curiosity and they totally still fought it out after as per the wrestling craziness I grew up to expect -- I haven't missed much.

Too bad there's no way for people to hug over the internet. I'm sure a lot of arguments would've been resolved without any hard feelings that way.