The big bang theory doesn't say anything about creation. Stop bringing it up. :/
Do you believe in a God? I am a...
Hey, hey, hey! People, why would you tell strangers about something so personal?
This should be discussed only around people you are close to.... Strangers don't need to know about you in this way.
Why not start a nicer, "What's your favorite food" thread?
" @torus: I didn't know there was such a thing as a "Strong Agnostic". "
It's the belief that knowledge about the existence or nonexistence God is impossible to have, as opposed to simply believing that you do not have it.
In the poll, it's listed as "Most likely not a god", which is bullshit. That's absolutely not what it is.
@Suicrat and @Adam_grif
That's science talking. Remember that the bible is a translated work from a piece that was written well over thousands of years ago. Meanings of words or phrases that mean one thing today, meant different things before. For example, the six days that God took to create the Earth, and the extra one of rest. When the Moses wrote the book of Genesis, "day" in it's literal translation was not used for a period of 24 hours, but as a period of time.
They do agree very well on the details. It's a matter of actually studying it and finding it's actual meaning, like what your teacher would make you do in high school English.
A major challenge to the big bang has come from observers using the corrected optics of the Hubble Space Telescope to measure distances to other galaxies. The new data is giving the theorists fits!
Here's a magazine article about it:
Astronomer Wendy Freedman and others recently used the Hubble Space Telescope to measure the distance to a galaxy in the constellation of Virgo, and her measurement suggests that the universe is expanding faster, and therefore is younger, than previously thought. In fact, it "implies a cosmic age as little as eight billion years," reported Scientific American magazine just last June. While eight billion years sounds like a very long time, it is only about half the currently estimated age of the universe. This creates a special problem, since, as the report goes on to note, "other data indicate that certain stars are at least 14 billion years old." If Freedman's numbers hold up, those elderly stars would turn out to be older than the big bang itself!
Cosmologists say the blast from the big bang was extremely smooth and uniform, according to the background radiation it allegedly left behind. How could such a smooth start have led to such massive and complex structures?
Geller's three-dimensional maps of thousands of clumped, tangled, and bubbled galactic agglomerations have transformed the way scientists picture the universe. She does not pretend to understand what she sees. Gravity alone appears unable to account for her great wall. "I often feel we are missing some fundamental element in our attempts to understand this structure," she admits.
Geller enlarged on her misgivings: "We clearly do not know how to make large structure in the context of the Big Bang." Interpretations of cosmic structure on the basis of current mapping of the heavens are far from definitive—more like trying to picture the whole world from a survey of Rhode Island, U.S.A. Geller continued: "Someday we may find that we haven't been putting the pieces together in the right way, and when we do, it will seem so obvious that we'll wonder why we hadn't thought of it much sooner."
That leads to the biggest question of all: What is supposed to have caused the big bang itself? No less an authority than Andrei Linde, one of the originators of the very popular inflationary version of the big bang theory, frankly admits that the standard theory does not address this fundamental question. "The first, and main, problem is the very existence of the big bang," he says. "One may wonder, What came before? If space-time did not exist then, how could everything appear from nothing? . . . Explaining this initial singularity—where and when it all began—still remains the most intractable problem of modern cosmology."
An article in Discover magazine recently concluded that "no reasonable cosmologist would claim that the Big Bang is the ultimate theory."
I never claimed to be a proponent of big bang theory. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I pretend to have certainty about the early period of the universe.
My point was more to address the notion that the pre-universal, the pre-existential is impossible. Even if there was a conscious entity that created the world, and all the galaxies we can see, and all the solar system, does not mean that thing preceded existence. If God exists, then it is not God. Part of the definition of the word God is a being that transcends existence itself. Such a thing is impossible, based on the meanings of the words in the sentence, not any lurching attempt for scientific proof.
"@Suicrat and @Adam_grif
That's science talking. Remember that the bible is a translated work from a piece that was written well over thousands of years ago. Meanings of words or phrases that mean one thing today, meant different things before. For example, the six days that God took to create the Earth, and the extra one of rest. When the Moses wrote the book of Genesis, "day" in it's literal translation was not used for a period of 24 hours, but as a period of time.
They do agree very well on the details. It's a matter of actually studying it and finding it's actual meaning, like what your teacher would make you do in high school English.A major challenge to the big bang has come from observers using the corrected optics of the Hubble Space Telescope to measure distances to other galaxies. The new data is giving the theorists fits!
" BLAH BLAH BLAH "
Here's a magazine article about it:
How about you quote your source next time? That 'magazine article' appears to originate in an unaccredited Geocities article, from a guy who's webpage looks like it was made in 1995: http://www.geocities.com/area51/2591/bigbang.html
Great job.
Haha, oh wow.
I've been trapped doing a massive assignment for the past 36 hours, and I'm very pleased to see torus keeping things in check.
That's science talking. Remember that the bible is a translated work from a piece that was written well over thousands of years ago. Meanings of words or phrases that mean one thing today, meant different things before. For example, the six days that God took to create the Earth, and the extra one of rest. When the Moses wrote the book of Genesis, "day" in it's literal translation was not used for a period of 24 hours, but as a period of time.
How would you know how "day" was used in the time of Moses, considering we have practically no surviving documents to compare it to? It doesn't matter whether you want to say "day" means "a period of time", because no fixed period of time can be substituted into the six biblical "days" and remain coherent with reality. If you say they're all variable, then why bother describing them as six units of time? Why not one? Why not twelve?
You missed the most important thing too - the order Genesis gives is wrong. This isn't a matter of opinion, this isn't a matter of belief system, the order is wrong. Your best bet is to abandon Genesis as the crazed writings of primitive people passed down to teach a moral, and that there should be no stock taken from the actual information there.
They do agree very well on the details. It's a matter of actually studying it and finding it's actual meaning, like what your teacher would make you do in high school English.
No, they really really don't agree.
Genesis 1: 25 - 27
vsAnd God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.
Genesis 2: 18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Now we play spot the semantic difference. In the first one, man is created after all the animals, and in the second Adam is created explicitly before them, and then God creates them so he won't be lonely.
That's 1 : 27 compared to 2 : 18 - 22.So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them.... And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
...
See how in the first one, Males and Females are created simultaneously, and in the second, Adam exists beforehand? The "creation week" and the "Eden Narrative" are not the same creation story.
YAY! Today is blasphemy day... not much different than any other day for me really, but I'll celebrate it nonethelss.
Here I go:
Your circular "reasoning" baffles my mind. You say, "Oh I'm a baby, and if teh bible says so, then thar's ur proof", WRONG biotch. You can't say that your document is proof for the document's truthiness.
Believing in stuff that cannot be proven should always be something you strive not to do, we all do it. But if someone points out the flaws in our observations we should stand corrected. As such, if a christian points to evidence that there is a god, I should very well be able to change my viewpoint of not believing in one. The sad thing is that believers do not need any evidence of a higher deity to believe in it, they do it because of their upbrining, which is scary in itself.
You can't ask for proof of something which transcends the concept of proof." Believing in stuff that cannot be proven should always be something you strive not to do, we all do it. But if someone points out the flaws in our observations we should stand corrected. As such, if a christian points to evidence that there is a god, I should very well be able to change my viewpoint of not believing in one. The sad thing is that believers do not need any evidence of a higher deity to believe in it, they do it because of their upbrining, which is scary in itself. "
God is an impossibility. If a Christian gave you proof that a conscious entity created millions of galaxies, he would not be giving you proof of God.
In order for something called "God" to "exist", you have to change the definition of the word "God" or the verb "to exist". The two are incompatible.
" @floodiastus said:You hit the nail on the head, thats why I believe there is no god :)You can't ask for proof of something which transcends the concept of proof. God is an impossibility. If a Christian gave you proof that a conscious entity created millions of galaxies, he would not be giving you proof of God. In order for something called "God" to "exist", you have to change the definition of the word "God" or the verb "to exist". The two are incompatible. "" Believing in stuff that cannot be proven should always be something you strive not to do, we all do it. But if someone points out the flaws in our observations we should stand corrected. As such, if a christian points to evidence that there is a god, I should very well be able to change my viewpoint of not believing in one. The sad thing is that believers do not need any evidence of a higher deity to believe in it, they do it because of their upbrining, which is scary in itself. "
Going by your definition, I suppose I would be a Strong Agnostic as well, although I voted just Agnostic in the poll based on the OP's description. I honestly thought your definition of Strong Agnostic is the correct one for just Agnostic and had never heard of Strong Agnostic before either." @Bruce said:
It's the belief that knowledge about the existence or nonexistence God is impossible to have, as opposed to simply believing that you do not have it. In the poll, it's listed as "Most likely not a god", which is bullshit. That's absolutely not what it is. "" @torus: I didn't know there was such a thing as a "Strong Agnostic". "
That aside, I guess I could also be described as a skeptical believer. It is my opinion that there is an overriding force in the universe that influences all life and creation. I do not believe there is a man living in the clouds however that if I pray to, he'll give me what I ask for. I don't think I'll be treated to some paradise in the afterlife if I follow the rules and regulations of religions that in actuality are based on nothing more than ancient cults. God is just a concept, a name for an unnameable force that affects everything. I would doubt it's even a conscious being or self-aware intelligence, but more a force like gravity or a universal pattern found in nature that links everything and can explain anything. I know most people wouldn't consider such a thing "God", but like I said, to me "God" is just a name representing an unknown in the universe, much like 'x' represents an unknown in a mathematical problem. The only difference is, in this case "God" represents a specific unknown.
" @floodiastus: My point was more directed at the notion that a Christian could ever give you proof that God exists. He can't ever, no matter what evidence he collects. "Exactly ;)
" @floodiastus: Which means it's not a matter of belief, it's axiomatic based on the meanings of the words "God" "exist". "Well, its all subjective anyway
To elaborate on this point, there is nothing wrong with being uncertain about how something functions or why it exists. It is not appropriate to claim supernatural causes as explanations to compensate for one's ignorance. The reason why certain theories, like the Big Bang, are so prolific in the scientific community is because they currently offer the best explanation for some phenomenon, supported by evidence. Theories are not perfect, and as such are amendable when new evidence is discovered. But that does not mean they should be ignored, especially not in favor of something with even less evidential support. I would advise anyone who is uncertain about and interested in something to do some actual research into the subject. Scientists are bright fellows for the most part, but it is not sufficient to claim something is true because they believe it is -- that is known as the argument from authority fallacy. Claim it is true because it is supported by reliable evidence, preferably that which is testable. But again, if you are not inclined do research into the area or what you uncover is not sufficiently convincing, then simply claim ignorance instead of making something up." I never claimed to be a proponent of big bang theory. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I pretend to have certainty about the early period of the universe. "
" @Suicrat said:My point was to illustrate that the atheist equivalent of the book of Genesis is not Big Bang Theory, because unlike the book of Genesis, Big Bang Theory is based on observation.To elaborate on this point, there is nothing wrong with being uncertain about how something functions or why it exists. It is not appropriate to claim supernatural causes as explanations to compensate for one's ignorance. The reason why certain theories, like the Big Bang, are so prolific in the scientific community is because they currently offer the best explanation for some phenomenon, supported by evidence. Theories are not perfect, and as such are amendable when new evidence is discovered. But that does not mean they should be ignored, especially not in favor of something with even less evidential support. I would advise anyone who is uncertain about and interested in something to do some actual research into the subject. Scientists are bright fellows for the most part, but it is not sufficient to claim something is true because they believe it is -- that is known as the argument from authority fallacy. Claim it is true because it is supported by reliable evidence, preferably that which is testable. But again, if you are not inclined do research into the area or what you uncover is not sufficiently convincing, then simply claim ignorance instead of making something up. "" I never claimed to be a proponent of big bang theory. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I pretend to have certainty about the early period of the universe. "
" @Suicrat: Regardless of whether it was intentional, you made the point of being uncertain while still being an atheist. I thought it was important to generalize that since the Big Bang is not the only thing subject to this criticism. And just in case you misinterpreted, when I said "you" I wasn't referring to you in particular. "But that's the thing, I'm certain God doesn't exist. As I've said several times, it's axiomatic, based on the meanings of the noun "God" and the verb "to exist". I think you're mistaking my atheism for other people's agnosticism.
I am a Monotheist, or more specifically a Roman Catholic.
@floodiastus said:
" The sad thing is that believers do not need any evidence of a higher deity to believe in it, they do it because of their upbrining, which is scary in itself. "
I'm sorry but that is not necessarily true for all people who have a religious belief. Many people may come to believe in God, or whoever or whatever else, after not being brought up to believe in anything at all.
I myself had a religious upbringing attending a Catholic Church and school e.t.c., but I was never forced to believe in God. I was taught about religions in school, not just Christianity/Catholicism, and was allowed to come to my own judgement on what I believed. I became a 'full member' of the Church, if you will, (Confirmed) nearly 2 years ago now and have found that I have 100% came to a decision to become a Catholic through my own will.
Finally, just a little thought here, I find that people who I know, who had a strict Catholic upbringing, don't believe in God/ have little faith in His existence.
EDIT:
Oh, and also for reference. This may have been said by someone else, but it is not only people with no religious belief in God that believe that the big bang happened. I believe in the occurrence of the big bang as the creation of the universe, however I believe that it was caused by God as he created the universe and everything in it. Therefore I believe like some other Christians that the story of creation contained in Genesis is not the exact word of God and the exact way that the world came to be as it is, I think that is is merely symbolic to show us that God created the world and the rest of the universe.
" @Suicrat: The uncertainty I was referring to was not that of your belief in a deity. I will again emphasize that the first response was not for you in particular, but rather a generalization of a point you made. Being an atheist does not require certainty about anything since in general it is simply a lack of belief in the existence of deities, even though in your case you do claim certainty of there being no deities. But more importantly, certainty is not required with everything. That is the main point I was making. Many people choose explanations from religions simply because they want something in which to believe, but I wanted to make it clear that uncertainty is not a flaw. Another example similar to the kind you were refuting is the claim that some make about evolution being incompatible with theism, which it is not. And nor is it necessary for atheism. "Never said it was, but God is a word that transcends the concept of existence, so the statement "God exists" is oxymoronic.
" @floodiastus said:It does now does it? ;) How can you be sure?" @Suicrat said:No, it's not. The universe exists. That fact is objective. "" @floodiastus: Which means it's not a matter of belief, it's axiomatic based on the meanings of the words "God" "exist". "Well, its all subjective anyway "
" @Suicrat said:" @floodiastus said:It does now does it? ;) How can you be sure? "" @Suicrat said:No, it's not. The universe exists. That fact is objective. "" @floodiastus: Which means it's not a matter of belief, it's axiomatic based on the meanings of the words "God" "exist". "Well, its all subjective anyway "
Cognito ergo sum. The universe is defined as "all that exists". Since we are thinking, we exist in some fashion, and we must exist inside of existence, i.e. the universe. We can't be sure that the universe we can see is the real one, but we can be certain that there is one.
" @floodiastus said:Only by changing the definitions of the words "real", "exist", and "universe" can you negate these concepts. They are axiomatic. Go ahead and practice pure skepticism, floodiastus. Your stomach will start rumbling before long." @Suicrat said:" @floodiastus said:It does now does it? ;) How can you be sure? "" @Suicrat said:No, it's not. The universe exists. That fact is objective. "" @floodiastus: Which means it's not a matter of belief, it's axiomatic based on the meanings of the words "God" "exist". "Well, its all subjective anyway "
Cognito ergo sum. The universe is defined as "all that exists". Since we are thinking, we exist in some fashion, and we must exist inside of existence, i.e. the universe. We can't be sure that the universe we can see is the real one, but we can be certain that there is one. "
" @Suicrat said:Never said uncertainty was a flaw, I'm not being defensive (at least not consciously), I'm explaining my position from a what-the-word-means point of view.I am confused as to what this is referring to. You seem overly defensive with someone who hasn't explicitly disagreed with anything you said. "" Never said it was "
" Figures I'm the first one to choose A. Apparently I'm a minority here. "I know how you feel. :p
At first I thought you were trying to equivocate certainty about non-existence of God (not based on evidence, but the word "God" and the word "existence") with certainty about the existence of God based on faith. Apologies." @Suicrat: You seem defensive in that you want to find something to disagree with or argue over. I do not believe either of us have said something that has contradicted what the other has said so far. I've said twice already that it was not a response to you, and considering you (and what you said) were essentially the example on which I based my argument I don't see how it could have even been interpreted as you thinking it was a flaw. "
"This is NOT a religious debate"
That reminds me of the candybar poll in Off Topic that isn't a candybar debate. Either way, if you set off to make a thread that definitely isn't a religious debate you've put together the perfect poll.
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