I was hit by my parents when I was a kid, and to be honest, I think some of the parents are abusing this. Luckily, as time goes by and I mature, they eventually stopped doing so, maybe when I was 11 or something.
In a society obsessed with scores rather than talents, parents often have high expectations on their children. <80% in dication? Spanking. Left your homework at home? Spanking . Didn't practice piano? Spanking. (Note: We don't play pianos for fun, we play it so our resumes look a little better.) Older sister slaps you and not a word from the parents (Actually that happened to a friend of mine)
No, spanking is never the right way to raise children, but through understanding. I believe parents have to be strict, but I never believed in scolding or physical punishment. This can be achieved by punishments, but never ever physical ones.
Anyone who takes the COPS show at 100% face value and belief might need a bit of help when it come to real police stuff. (As in non 90% drunken rages and what not)
As for spanking. I got poped once and a wile when I was little *This was before computers where widely in homes. And before video games. Course now most likely my parents would have just taken those away lol*
Course...there is a difference between a "Spank" And grabbing the kids arm. Jerking them down and smacking them on the ass.
@Tennmuerti: The reason laws such as these (or driving, voting, etc.) differentiate between adults and children is due to children not having the adequate capacity to reason. Also, the reason society places more concern in protecting children is due to children being a vulnerable population. Take these reasons why particular laws apply differently to adults and children - capacity to reason and vulnerability - and apply them to one's in (in your opinion, an adult's) right to not be disciplined or punished through physical harm. If anything, such a right is more applicable to a vulnerable population.
Take the example of a mentally disabled, adult individual often misbehaving, for example throwing things around the house. Let's assume that spanking this adult (inflicting physical harm to discipline) works, in that the individual ceases to throw things around the house after he/she is hit. Would that make it morally justifiable for one to hit this person? Should vulnerable people not have the same human rights as non-vulnerable people? Again, I am speaking of a basic human right here.
The fact that most US states don't have these laws in place is a failure to protect one of our most vulnerable groups of people - children. In certain cases it may be a slight spanking that doesn't cause any serious physical harm, and in other cases such a law (or lack of one) may lead to serious physical abuse. A right such as to not be disciplined or punished through physical harm should not only apply to the non-vulnerable population, but should also apply to vulnerable people - the elderly, the disabled, and children - and if anything, more so, due to such people often being defenseless, lacking the capabilities to protect themselves.
Absolutly... but there is a difference between a spanking and a beating. My mom use to take a wooden spoon to my butt when I was really in trouble, which doesn't cause any injury... it just stings really badly. If it leaves bruises, it is probably abuse. It should be more like a pink belly on the part of the body with the most padding.
Animals learn best from pain, and slap on the ass is a safe way to give negative reinforcement to a child. This shouldn't be the first resort, but some kids just don't listen to a scolding or the word 'NO'.
@foggel: Do parents have a right to punish their child? I don't think I understand your question due to the answer being so obvious. But yes, it alright for parents to spank their children because I would rather have that happen to me than to be grounded for a week. Physical punishment is weakest form of punishment with the highest being a parent hating their own child - now tell if you agree with that scale?
@SofaKing Adult's are punished by physical harm all the time for not adhering to social standards, that's called prison. It's just a different sort of physical harm. And there are mental institutions for the mentally unstable that are dangerous to society, basic human rights of those people are being constrained just like the kids. Spanking and the like are the lowest form of physical punishment for societal misbehavior that prevent the requirement of more severe methods such as fine or imprisonment that are not applied to children as equally as they are to adults. Also used as a tool for developing that capacity to reason you have mentioned in an unformed mind. Please stop hiding behind the human rights argument, we limit those every day all the time because they have to be limited by social norms. They only extend so far. As individuals lacking the full capacity to reason (as you agreed) for themselves it becomes up to the parent to decide what is or is not harmful and not socially acceptable for their children to do. Just as a parent is legally/financially liable and responsible for the child under his/her care, so a higher degree of control allowed to be exercised is given to the parent or guardian.
By the way, like I have mentioned before (I think, if not will do so now) I am very much against the use of physical force/punishment as a parenting tool. It is the absolute last resort and should never be lightly used. I do not ever want to spank or otherwise apply force to my own children. I find it crude and abhorrent. There are indeed better ways of handling things most of the time. However one has to be a realist and not wear rose tinted goggles thinking that all situations and all children upbringings are the same, parents are not the only thing that matters, children are also influenced by the environments they grow up in and their peers. Things aren't always the same for all kids nor all situations controllable with no use of force. It's also completely pointless and harmfull past a certain age (or mental level of development)
" @foggel: 15 is less than 18 and parents have the right. Is it a good thing to spank a child? Fuck no. But its shit like that why there's bad parents around. "
How does spanking your child make you a bad parent? Childrens minds are not complete yet and can be molded, if the parent punishes the child when they do something bad the child will know not to do it. however if you need to spank your child often or at the age of 15 then you are a bad parent "
And if those same scientists told you that violent games lead to violent behavior, you would be up-in-arms about the whole thing.
My mom got spanked as a kid, and she's not violent at all. My nephew gets an occasional spank when he gets really out of line, and he's not aggressive at all. Also, there is a massive difference between a spank, and repeatedly spanking. The whole purpose of a spank is not to hurt the kid, but to shock them. My dad never had to spank because his voice was loud and booming enough to make you shit your pants if he yelled. For parents who don't have the same volume in their voice, however, a simple swat to the ass is just as effective.
" @foggel: 15 is less than 18 and parents have the right. Is it a good thing to spank a child? Fuck no. But its shit like that why there's bad parents around. "
How does spanking your child make you a bad parent? Childrens minds are not complete yet and can be molded, if the parent punishes the child when they do something bad the child will know not to do it. however if you need to spank your child often or at the age of 15 then you are a bad parent "
I call bullshit and shenanigans on that study. By that logic, the Chinese should be one of the most violent people around, given a spanking is an accepted form of discipline. But that's not exactly the case, now is it? You don't spank a kid and leave them to "think about what they did." You make it clear to them why they are being spanked. If your child doesn't understand why what they did is wrong, then hell, you're not spanking properly. "
The chinese will spank their kids if thier kids woke up screaming from a nightmare just because it had disturbed the parents sleep.
While some people define spanking as one swift stroke to shock the kid, most people I know that have been spanked got simply got an ass whopping, past having tears, past screaming for their lives. Even though that may be in your mind the wrong way to spank someone, it should volumes to you that it is the only definition of spanking I have in my mind.
@StaticFalconar: Actually spanking them until they're in tears is very much within my idea of a spanking. A "proper" spanking is to actually make them know why they are being spanked, that a spanking is a punishment for something they did wrong, instead of just giving them the impression that you're justifying being violent towards other people. Consider the spanking the physical part to a verbal explanation of why what they did was wrong.
Also regarding your idea of how the Chinese spank their kids, sorry to burst your that bubble of yours but it's pretty wrong picture that you painted for yourself in your mind.
@Turambar: There is no right or wrong, other than the truth of what really happens in real life.
@Kazona: I agree with scientist saying violent video games are bad for kids since most of those studies are done on 5 or ten year olds (just like these spanking studies were done on), and no kid that young should be playing a violent games like that anyway.
" You're a pretty shit parent if you cant control a CHILD with words, regardless of how old they are. There's an example in a Critical Thinking book I have. Spanking has immediate punitive and (for the parent) anger-releasing effects. Parents should not spank their children,for spanking gives children the message that inflicting pain on others is an appropriate means of changing their behavior. Furthermore, spanking trains children to submit to the arbitrary rules of authority figures who have power to hard them. We ought not to give our children those messages.Instead, we should train them to either make appropriate behavioural choices or to expect to deal with the related natural and logical consequences of their behavior. Everyones entitled to their own opinion and if you want to hit children go for it. If my opinion angers you, what? You gonna hit me? Yeah, that fixes everything "
That is a bs claim, and I can't take this seriously after you used a BOOK as a example as to why spanking is bad.
There's a line between spanking and beating a child. It is a very fine line. However, if you ask people with children I think more of them would be in favor of spanking than those asked who don't have children. I don't think the actual spanking issue is up to non parents. However, in clear cut cases of abuse, it is just wrong. If a parent is just taking out their personal frustration on a child they should be punished. If a parent is using spanking as a tool to shape the child without harming them then it is fine.
Personally, my mom broke a half inch thick paddle on me for mouthing back at her and I am better for it. The paddle didn't hurt as much as the shock that it broke. And I learned not to be a smart ass to people that are my superiors/seniors. Seeing how some people act in public with constant disrespect for others, I wish their parents had used a bit more punishment.
You can't make spanking illegal. First off because it's a large cultural component of child rearing for many cultures. Second, where do you draw the line for physical contact? It's necessary to sometimes grab or hold a child to control where they are, and grabbing a child by the wrist can be just as physically traumatic as a slap to the bottom.
Not that I condone spanking; anything but! Spanking is an incredibly archaic and ineffective form of correction - really, you want positive reinforcement to strengthen good behaviors. But it's hard to isolate spanking as a "right." The better question is whether spanking is a form of child abuse.
Source: 2 years of assistant teaching at pre-k daycares
"You can't make spanking illegal. First off because it's a large cultural component of child rearing for many cultures. Second, where do you draw the line for physical contact? It's necessary to sometimes grab or hold a child to control where they are, and grabbing a child by the wrist is just as physically traumatic as a slap to the bottom. "
Great point. It's the sticky mess you get into when PC starts to take over society. Eventually you enter the realm of grey, and a line has to be drawn. If someone feels spanking their child is wrong then don't do it, but don't judge othersbecause they think differently. I work with a lady who couldn't have children of her own. One day an elderly lady came in with her grandson. The older lady asked her grandson to do something and he gave some smart remark back, and the lady slapped him. My coworker called social services on the grandmother. Fast forward ten years and I just listened to the same coworker talk to me about how she spanked one of her adopted children for talking back to her. That's why you cannot make these judgements when you are some childless citizen. You have no perspective.
@Turambar: Its not about what you nor I believe but what actually happens, after all, you nor I may not personally run a dog fighting ring, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
@Kazona: Because your life is one data point while scientist study more than just one person. You can jump off a bridge and survive but that doesn't mean everybody else will.
Respect is a complex emotion most people don't fully comprehend until they're nearly adults. Fear is easier, kids get fear. They can fear you now and respect you later, or you can pussy out and they'll probably never respect you.
" Anyone who can't control a 15 year old with words probably doesn't know where children come from. "
Nicely said. "
Anyone who believes that absolutely 100% doesn't have children of their own. Im guessing you guys are still at that age where you think you know everything yet still somehow depend on everything. Well when you grow up you'll understand what a twat you were right here at this age, and a slap probably would have done you good. Seriously? Have you ever dealth with a 15 year old? Ug, the wiki generation are more clueless than any other and its made worse by their perception of being the most intelligent. No kid, intelligence is experience, something you clearly don't have here.
It says in the Bible that it is OK. My wife and I spank our kids because there is no debating with a 2 or 3 year old of course it´s a completely different story when kids get to 8 or 10 years of age though...
My parents are good, kind people, and they smacked me as a child. My nan regularly gave me a quick tap with the newspaper until she died when I was 21, and she was a god damn saint. You can't reason with a two year old, and I didn't understand that I shouldn't pour my dad's boiling hot tea on my self, try and touch the pretty fire in the pretty fire place, or stick anything in the plug sockets. That short sharp shock is a lot better than burning and scalding myself, or worse, through the kind of empirical testing our cave ancestors did to do determine how things would affect them. That pain response is there for a reason, to teach us not to do things that are bad for us, but we don't want to subject our children to that do we? So we apply it in a controlled and proportionate manner. If everyone were always reasonable all the time, from birth to death, you wouldn't need to smack children. Or have armies, jails, contracts, policemen, laws, traffic light food labelling, or any of the stuff we've developed to create a functional society.
@ryanwho: I haven't dealt with 15 year olds as an adult, i'm only 18, but i can remember being 15 easily and i and my friends were never hit. The only 15 year olds that got hit were ones from homes with bad parents and that just turned them in to complete dicks. It is okay to spank a younger child because they won't understand reasoning and they would just associate pain with the bad thing and won't want to do it. But it should never get to the point where you have to hit a teenager because they do wrong, that's down to bad parenting. And this
@Yukoei
said:
" If a parent hits you, you should have the right to defend yourself. "
I have a 4 year old and he gets spanked or whipped as I call it when it comes to it, and my 11 year old step son gets it when it comes to it. The older one has not gotten it in a while because when I met his mom when he was six the frequency of them have decreased. Every time I lay the hammer down on one of my kids they know why I'm doing it and most of the time dont make the same mistake again. I wonder how many of you here actually have kids... Also for the most part I just have to say something to my boys and they know what the deal is, now when they are around their mom they act different she has issues with them I just dont have. So yes I agree with whipping your kids, my parents were and they are very successful individuals and their parents the same. So next time you see that kid busting around the store throwing tantrums and shit I would bet the mom believes in not putting their hand to the backside of that child.
" If a parent hits you, you should have the right to defend yourself. "
How old are you? I have an 11 year old and if he does some dumb shit the hammer will come down. I instilled shit in him when I became his step dad five years ago and he is a very responsible kid and knows right from wrong. I talk first and let you know right from wrong and if I feel like shit was done and I know for a fact that me and your mom has had that talk many times, yep hammer commin down. And I WISH he would try to strike back.... all i can say is lol.
" If a parent hits you, you should have the right to defend yourself. "
How old are you? I have an 11 year old and if he does some dumb shit the hammer will come down. I instilled shit in him when I became his step dad five years ago and he is a very responsible kid and knows right from wrong. I talk first and let you know right from wrong and if I feel like shit was done and I know for a fact that me and your mom has had that talk many times, yep hammer commin down. And I WISH he would try to strike back.... all i can say is lol. "
Yeah that's right, don't talk to him like a civil person just hit him with your hammer!
" If a parent hits you, you should have the right to defend yourself. "
You also have a right to get a job and feed yourself and house yourself when they kick you out. You wanna talk about rights, you need to weigh what your parents are giving you relative to what you're giving them. Its like you think you're entitled to all these things by default yet you're immune to their methods of discipline. A parent's number 1 job is to make sure their child grows up to contribute to society. You wanna put yourself on the cross because you thought you could do anything and not be punished, well that's probably because you weren't disciplined early enough and now you're so spoiled and entitled you've convinced yourself its a good idea to punch your mom, you landlord, your chef, your maid, and (as your generation seems to forget) your judge/ jury/executioner, because she slapped you for skipping school. This next generation is so full of fail, dear god.
Comeback here and post a few years later when you have your own kids Yukoei. Also did you read...... I talk to my 11 year old about right from wrong long before hand, also in an earlier post I did say its been a long time since I had to whip him, but like I said... post back when you have kids.
" If a parent hits you, you should have the right to defend yourself. "
You also have a right to get a job and feed yourself and house yourself when they kick you out. You wanna talk about rights, you need to weigh what your parents are giving you relative to what you're giving them. Its like you think you're entitled to all these things by default yet you're immune to their methods of discipline. A parent's number 1 job is to make sure their child grows up to contribute to society. You wanna put yourself on the cross because you thought you could do anything and not be punished, well that's probably because you weren't disciplined early enough and now you're so spoiled and entitled you've convinced yourself its a good idea to punch your mom, you landlord, your chef, because she slapped you for skipping school. This next generation is so full of fail, dear god. "
" Comeback here and post a few years later when you have your own kids Yukoei. Also did you read...... I talk to my 11 year old about right from wrong long before hand, also in an earlier post I did say its been a long time since I had to whip him, but like I said... post back when you have kids. "
Yeah your right, I have no fucking idea what I am talking about...I just want to be loved :(
@Yukoei: Dude when you have your own kids shit changes. Matter of fact its an art, no I dont have to whip my older son as much or barely anymore because he knows right from wrong, yea he makes mistakes but now we can talk about it. Im rearing 2 boys that have to become men in this world and I want to give them the best that I can from what my parents and family gave me. Now my 4 year old, he gets spanked much more often because he cant sit down with me and talk about mistakes and why they are bad, also for the most part I raise my voice and he knows the deal. And also I dont think my 11 year old would want to raise his hand against his 6'4 275 pound step dad.
" If a parent hits you, you should have the right to defend yourself. "
Sure I don't see a problem with that. Kids should not be abused and should not be punished by law for self defense. @Prymet1me:@ryanwho: (at your responces to Yukoei) Look at it from this perspective. Not in regards whether or not it is right or wrong for the kid to hit/defend against his parents (that is between the kid and the parent). But from the point of where the parent should not be able to bring about civil action (or police) into the matter if is done in self defence. From the example in the original post where the 15 year old now has a criminal record becouse of the incident (defending herself). I think it is wrong she got charged for that. Likewise I agree wih you both that physical punshment may be warranted in some cases and the parent should (and do in most cases) have the right to punish their kids.
@Yukoei said:
Yeah your right, I have no fucking idea what I am talking about...I just want to be loved :( "
Being loved is not mutually exclusive to being spanked. In fact the more you parents love you (and you them) the bigger the emotional impact is when you are punished since it means so much more.
I think it's pretty clear that the situation presented on that episode of cops is way more complex, and probably much more messed up, than that 3 minute look in can really give the viewer. Edit: This is totally a side note, but I really don't like Cops, the TV show. That whole "all people filmed are innocent until proven guilty" disclaimer bull doesn't wash with me.
All you do when spanking your children is showing them that that is a legitimate way to get what you want.
edit: Reading all these responses, I am a bit shocked, I mean, I would expect it if it were the general public, but somehow I though the Giantbomb community was a bit more educated.
@Kaineda77: Yeah. This ryanwho guy, somehow linking all of the problems of this generation to a lack of spanking, is a thread highlight. Also Prymet1me laying the hammer down and showin' 'em who's boss.
I guess people are so accustomed to it that they have trouble taking a step back and analyzing the phenomenon rationally. I hate to use personal experience in an argument, but since so many seem to be doing it, me and my two younger siblings were never spanked, and all of us either have university degrees or are on our way. I like to think we're a relatively successful bunch anyway.
I also don't think that those who spank their kids are "bad parents", I'm just somewhat embarrassed that it's taking us this long to progress. Corporal punishment in schools existed not long ago. Laws were passed and we now (most of us at least) view it as an abomination. The same will happen in regards to corporal punishment in the household. It's only a matter of time. As for now though, we'll continue to have discussions like this where one side promotes pulling a kid's pants down and slapping him/her in the ass.
@StaticFalconar: I agree, my life is just one point of data. But this scientific study is also a limited study. Just compare the amount of children used in the study against the population of children in the world. Not to mention that I'm absolutely certain that there are other scientists who would completely disagree with this assessment.
My point is that there is no full-proof way of knowing whether spanking is wrong or not. And there's also the fact that people have different views on what a spanking actually is, some of which I strongly disagree with. And in some cases, spanking can do more harm than good, but in others cases it'll prove to be very effective in raising children.
Should we spank our kids to the point of them not being able to sit down, or whack them with a belt? Hell no, that's abuse. At least in my opinion it is. In some countries (and some people's eyes), that's perfectly acceptable. But is someone a bad parent simply because they give their child a firm tap on the ass to get them in line when they really won't listen? If that is really the case, then the world is full of bad parents, and the large majority of us should never have kids in our entire life.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, it's not all black and white.
@Kazona: I never said it was black and white but only that it it is generally a bad decision. You can name a number of specific cases where it would seem so logical, just like under certain circumstances it would very logical to beat a dog if you are trying house train them as well (the dog may cower in fear (and live in fear) or bite back and run away). Yet violence will only breed more violence either against other kids, or straight back at the parents until the kids grow up and they are strong enough to fight back effectively using violence of thier own (like the OP's original story if you haven't forgotten how all this got started). Next thing you know, you got kids moving out of thier parents house and there can only be one of two ways it can go down: The kid basically lives on the street and doesn't contribute to society = bad parents, OR kid scraps by working dumb jobs forever hating thier parents and essentially cuts off all ties with them = bad parents.
Spanking a child may be a very powerful tool, but it can quickly turn on you if used wrong. Seeing as how many dumb ass people there are in the world, I would gladly bet a lot of them have used the spanking tool improperly, since i doubt any of the families that these scientist study would actually let them see the actual spanking process and how far they are willing to go before they stop.
Log in to comment