I think I know who did the poisoning, thanks to fucking Kotaku... They had an article that was called "things you might have missed during the episode" and I thought it was just going to be cool little Easter eggs. Instead they went ahead and posted pretty much who did it. So unless they're also just guessing, then screw them. So freaking frustrating.
Game of Thrones Season 4 - The Thread
@liquidprince: duder, the same thing happened to me. I guess I won't read anything Kotaku posts about GOT? It was filed under spoilers and mentions there will be spoilers but I was thinking the spoilers were referring to the events that happen in episode 2, not the fucking identity of the murderer.
@marcsman: Considering how almost universally hated the Kingsmoot plot is (along with pretty much all of the Ironborn storylines) I wouldn't be surprised if they drastically rewrite that stuff. They are the worst characters (I'm looking at you, Damphair), it's boring as hell, almost entirely irrelevant to anything else going in the series, there's no real need for it. Asha, in the show, has a brand new plot point about saving Theon, so it looks like it's not going to happen.
I'd take a guess they will skip straight to the important parts of that plot, the return of Euron and the Ironborn setting our for Mereen.
Oh, right! It will probably be mentioned soon I think, considering it happens off-screen in the books and only rumors go around.
@dudeglove: I haven't read the books, but from what I can tell Stannis isn't all that important and it's Melisandre that's the integral part of that faction. And Liam Cunningham's character maybe.
@dudeglove: yes. Stannis is THAT boring. It is part of his character that he is so unsimpathetic he couldn't claim the iron throne, even when he is the older brother, due to lack of public support.
the most interesting part of his side is Melisandre.
@dudeglove: Afaik the main reason Stannis (or rather Baratheon) is part of the storyline is because they are really the only major military force other than Lannister left. They do a terrible job at showing it in the show, but most of the storyline has been all about warfare. They just need some more establishing scenes, rather than just seeing Stannis in his chambers with a few advisors over and over and over.
About time this waste of time dies. GoT writers and/or George R.R. Martin are so fucking terrible at making you hate characters. The only way they know how is to make them exceedingly unpleasant. Wrestling does a better job than them with their heels. That's saying something.
This was a painful episode to watch. Getting embarrassed of what is going on is not my definition of entertainment and having that ridiculous wedding go on for so fucking long was just bad. After 3 seasons it has been established well enough that Joffrey is a worthless piece of sub human trash and really there was no need for that. The character didn't deserve so much attention for his death after the piss poor job everyone involved with his creation did.
Anyway maybe now the rest of the season will be more tolerable. Might even become interesting and not just an embarrassment like this.
@amyggen said:
@pr1mus: You seem to hate the show a bit too much for having watched over three seasons of it (to be fair I did watch almost three seasons of TWD, and I ended up hating almost everything about that show except the visual effects work).
Yeah, maybe you should stop watching if you don't like it. You have better things you can do with your time.
@amyggen: I hate everything about Joffrey. The character, the way he is written and the actor who i think is terrible (but maybe that's the writers fault) and essentially every single scene he has been in since the start. Everything and everyone else range from alright to excellent.
So basically the actor/writers did their job right then.
@xyzygy: Yup, I totally remember why she was going to do it. I wouldn't put it past her to see things in a similar vein with Margaery having Joffrey wrapped around her fingers. It's a stretch, but I think it's possible. I don't think it was actually her though. I'd really like for it to have been Littlefinger, cause that'd be the most fuckin badass outcome. One of the things I was really curious about after the Red Wedding was how Littlefinger would take it. I'm just not gonna pin my hat to any theory and accept that it coulda been a bunch of people. Hopefully we'll find out next week.
Bah, I shouldn't be responding. Last thing I need is to be thinking about whether someone read the book or not and if they're leading me on or not. Last time I did the Red Wedding was spoiled for me, and this thread has kinda been a mess of people who read the books talking around things and indecipherable spoiler blocks. Fuckin minefield.
@kishinfoulux: No they didn't, not even close.
Ramsay is a character you're supposed to hate and is well written. He's a disgusting character just like Joffrey no doubt but is also actually smart and knows what he's doing. That scene where he gets scolded by his father regarding what he did with Theon and how he turned things around and proved he isn't just some idiot who just screwed everything up was well written and acted.
Joffrey never actually accomplished anything, he's not smart enough, he's oblivious to everything around him and does nothing other than embarrassing himself and everyone around without even realizing it. Frustration on the viewer's part is not a compelling way to make you hate a character. It always feels completely out of place with how every other characters are written. It's also so overdone over the length of 3 seasons and 2 episodes.
In how they treat others, characters like Joffrey, Ramsay and even Tywin are very similar but Ramsay and Tywin are not frustrating to watch.
@kishinfoulux: No they didn't, not even close.
Ramsay is a character you're supposed to hate and is well written. He's a disgusting character just like Joffrey no doubt but is also actually smart and knows what he's doing. That scene where he gets scolded by his father regarding what he did with Theon and how he turned things around and proved he isn't just some idiot who just screwed everything up was well written and acted.
Joffrey never actually accomplished anything, he's not smart enough, he's oblivious to everything around him and does nothing other than embarrassing himself and everyone around without even realizing it. Frustration on the viewer's part is not a compelling way to make you hate a character. It always feels completely out of place with how every other characters are written. It's also so overdone over the length of 3 seasons and 2 episodes.
In how they treat others, characters like Joffrey, Ramsay and even Tywin are very similar but Ramsay and Tywin are not frustrating to watch.
In other words, he's a teenager with too much power. That's kind of the whole idea.
@spoonman671: Absolutely. Seems like a weird thing to get hung up on.
@theht: @spoonman671: We'll simply have to agree to disagree on that. If a character is written specifically to not contribute anything of value AND be annoying throughout this is never going to be good enough writing for me. There are ways to better write this kind of character. Just consider Ramsay again for a second. He's also a teenager with too much power. He's also a fairly minor and unimportant character (at least at the moment, i'm not familiar with the books) that i think is written way better than Joffrey who has been one of the main antagonist of the show.
I thought it was pretty clear who poisoned him. Firstly, I did kinda suspect it was coming in this episode because I accidentally read about him being poisoned on the wiki a year ago, and this episode really seemed to be leading up to it. With that in mind while watching, one character made a few comments that I think pretty strongly foreshadowed their knowledge of the poison. My suspicions: look at the way Marge (fuck trying to spell that name) shovels that shit into Joffrey's mouth. She knew about the plan, along with her mom. Her mom even went over to Sansa and basically said "I'd welcome you with open arms back at home." Then you have the terminator telling Sansa to come with him if she wants to live (presumably on a boat to Mom's Country).
Those who have read the books, without telling me anything else: am I right?
edit: @pr1mus Hah. Dude. You just don't like sniveling teenagers born out of incest. It's understandable. It's intentional, though. His acting is actually very good.
I thought it was pretty clear who poisoned him. Firstly, I did kinda suspect it was coming in this episode because I accidentally read about him being poisoned on the wiki a year ago, and this episode really seemed to be leading up to it. With that in mind while watching, one character made a few comments that I think pretty strongly foreshadowed their knowledge of the poison. My suspicions: look at the way Marge (fuck trying to spell that name) shovels that shit into Joffrey's mouth. She knew about the plan, along with her mom. Her mom even went over to Sansa and basically said "I'd welcome you with open arms back at home." Then you have the terminator telling Sansa to come with him if she wants to live (presumably on a boat to Mom's Country).
Those who have read the books, without telling me anything else: am I right?
That's her grandmother, not her mother.
@spoonman671: you're her grandmother. Yeah, I forget pretty much everything between seasons. I really had to struggle to remember Sansa's name in my previous comment.
Also, are they gonna keep playing variations of the same 2 songs the entire series?
They really need to just make up some new ones. The Rains of Castamere has done a superb job at setting up some of the most intense scenes of the series, but not every episode is a Red Wedding. That song should have a specific meaning, and using it in situations not suited to it dilute it's effectiveness.
@development: I know there's the Lannister song, but what's the second?
@theht: I think he's probably talking about the main Game of Thrones theme. The only other song I can think of is The Bear and the Maiden Fair. The former is used frequently, obviously, while the latter was used a lot in one or two episodes last season, but not really anywhere else.
The Hound and Arya scene(s)...fucking great. Oberyn seems like a really cool character, I hope he gets more screen time in upcoming episodes and not just fade away now that the wedding's over.
SO glad that finally happened! I knew they were gonna show that episode at the beginning of the season. For those who didn't read the books, WHO DO YOU THINK DUN IT. Discuss. I always like hearing what people think while knowing it was... how evil of me :P
Cersei is/way my immediate guess. Rationally, the old lady who's marrying her granddaughter off to him would be my best guess. Littlefinger would be most entertaining :)
@pr1mus: Honestly man, if the character makes you feel that frustrated, he's doing his job. He's supposed to be playing a character that does exactly that. That's his entire purpose. He's supposed to be hard and embarrassing to watch.
@dudeglove: Stannis isn't necessarily boring... he's just apathetic and stern. It's been said many times about him that he isn't fit to rule because he cannot connect with the small folk. I personally like the character because he puts so much trust in Melisandre and to me that speaks volumes. His character IMO is also very closely tied with that of Melisandre and in some sense I see the two of them as one power.
@deegee: Are the Iron Islanders universally hated? I never heard that before. I think they're actually one of the most interesting families and I think Euron, Victarion, and Asha are all insanely cool in their own ways. Aeron is a little weird but that's exactly what he's portrayed as.
@theht: @spoonman671: We'll simply have to agree to disagree on that. If a character is written specifically to not contribute anything of value AND be annoying throughout this is never going to be good enough writing for me. There are ways to better write this kind of character. Just consider Ramsay again for a second. He's also a teenager with too much power. He's also a fairly minor and unimportant character (at least at the moment, i'm not familiar with the books) that i think is written way better than Joffrey who has been one of the main antagonist of the show.
Ramsay is supposed to be a teenager? O_O I thought he was supposed to be late 20's, early 30's!
@theht: I think he's probably talking about the main Game of Thrones theme. The only other song I can think of is The Bear and the Maiden Fair. The former is used frequently, obviously, while the latter was used a lot in one or two episodes last season, but not really anywhere else.
Actually I think it's just the one song; you're right. I re-watched the brothel scene in episode 1 and it's the same song; thought it was another for whatever reason.
Well fuck. Okay. I've been looking at the wedding stuff all evening and I think I know who did it. I said I wouldn't post any more wild theories but... fuck it I like talking about Game of Thrones.
I'll spoiler block what I noticed in these scenes, just to be safe.
So, as I said I was looking through the wedding stuff, looking to see if anything weird happens with some character or another. Maybe a sigil shows up somewhere, someone gets close to Joffrey's goblet, maybe the flower on their table is too close, anything. Eventually I started looking at jewelry. Maybe one part of Margaery's necklace is missing on one scene but not in a prior scene. Nothing. Cersei's necklace didn't look up to task, and I've kind of given up on that theory. Joffrey's rings all seem to still be in place when he dies.
I looked at the scene where Sansa picks up the goblet, where she holds it in a way she might have dropped something in it. Maybe a ring, but there's no good shot of her hands before she goes to get the goblet. Her necklace looked like I remembered it, the one Sir Dontos gave her. I looked back to see if there was a scene that gave us a look at her hand but there wasn't. The earliest scene with Sansa at the feast is when the Queen of Thorns goes to give her condolences.
Thing is, when the Queen of Thorns goes to fix up Sansa's hair, she touches Sansa's necklace. It looks almost like she pulls something off of it. Nevermind the fact that everything she's saying to Sansa about being a monster sounds totally disingenuous. In the shots of Sansa afterwards, you can clearly see that of the triangles the jewels are attached to, one is without a jewel. I looked back at the book scene to see if her necklace was always like that, but she wasn't wearing the necklace there. Back at the wedding ceremony she was wearing it, but we don't get a very good look at it.
So I went back to episode one when Sir Dontos gives her the necklace and there it looked like all triangles had a jewel attached. Considering that Sir Dontos knew shit was going down, and he's the one who gave Sansa the necklace, the necklace that the Queen of Thorns touches and is then missing a jewel, I think she orchestrated it all.
I think she got Sir Dontos to give Sansa the necklace so Sansa would wear the poison itself to the wedding. Then she could take the poisoned "jewel" and then put it in Joffrey's goblet (or their bottle of wine of which Margaery doesn't seem to have a sip) when she walked back to her chair. Or pass it to Margaery to do so, or put it in the pie that she fed to Joffrey.
I don't think they planned for Tyrion to be blamed.
@theht: I think you nailed it. Though I'd have to watch it again to see if this missing jewel thing is legit.
Storm of Swords was the book I was reading just before I got married. Not recommended reading before a wedding.
@theht: That was my theory as well.
THe Queen of Thorns is the smartest person on the show right now and all you have to do is look at her motives to see why she would assasinate Geoffrey. With Geoffrey out of the way, who becomes the King/Queen now? Her daughter is now the queen of the land, and she has enough control of her daughter that she is the real power behind the crown.
@monetarydread: Season 2 episode 2 spoilers:
But Margery is definitely in on it as well. I just re-watched the scene: she's totally distracted much of the party, she keeps trying to get Geoffrey to come and "toast" or have super dry pie, and she noticeably flinches every time an opportunity for him to drink some wine goes to waste (when he pours some on Tyrion's head, for instance). Because they couldn't have predicted when he'd drink it, I suspect it was in the carafe, not the cup itself.
And yeah that jewel is totally missing and you can actually very clearly see Grandma pinch it off with her fingers.
@monetarydread: Prince Tommen is next in line of succession. Margaery is not the queen, since the marriage was not consummated.
Season 4, Episode 2 Spoilers.
This part of the story makes me feel bad for Joffrey. Sure he was a horrible piece of shit, but what could you expect from a child born of incest, raised by a father who didn't like him or care for him, and a psycho for a mother. The things he did were rather irredeemable, but you could say the same thing about the Kingslayer, only Joffrey was just a boy who never had the opportunity to grow up and redeem himself. Still, I'd be lying if I said that seeing that teenager die wasn't satisfying.
As someone who has read the books, it was really hard not to just shut out the answer when my house mates were discussing who poisoned Joffrey.
Really enjoying this season so far, it is interesting to see the changes they are making from the books. Seems like they are already taking stuff from the later books and adding it now (like Roose Bolton meeting Theon/Reek)
Season 4 Ep 2 ending -
I haven't read the books - but with the way Arya was portrayed as becoming a total bad ass in the previous episode, I kind of thought they were setting her up to take Joffrey out later on. Oh well, still pretty awesome. Things are moving right along in Season 4!
HBO show spoilers. Do not click if you're not up to date.
Man, the joy I feel when the thing happens is freaking me out! Fourth time I see it, same excited reaction.
Season 4 Ep 2 ending -
I haven't read the books - but with the way Arya was portrayed as becoming a total bad ass in the previous episode, I kind of thought they were setting her up to take Joffrey out later on. Oh well, still pretty awesome. Things are moving right along in Season 4!
That was my impression when she repeated the names of her enemies in season 2, but I've really come to lose all expectations and just go with the journey. GRRM clearly created expectations so he can break them later, he doesn't abide by any classic storytelling plots, and intentionally so. It's really awesome that he breaks all the rules and has a completely random plot, but at the same time it feels weird for this to be so random..
I wonder if 20 years from now he will be hailed as the pioneer of completely unpredictable events in storytelling.
Just going with the gut feeling I got from the shows set up:
It seems that show tries to make us think that it was either the Fool, Sansa or the guy with a kickass mustache. But it is more likely to be Cersei, Jamie or Tywin. Each of the three have motive and would benefit from the situation. Most suspicious is Tywin, since he is the hand of the king and would have the power to rule while Cersei's other kids grow up. Joffrey was too unpredictable for his grand schemes.
But that is just my guess, it could have just been very effective bird-flue from the unsanitary catering conditions.
Sadly, my guess (with no insight whatsoever) is that Mr. Left Picture did not focus test well enough. Viewers liked Robb/Jon more and when it came time for Season 4 they evaluated who they could get to be the new heartthrob for the ladies and Daario made sense to get a do-over. I guess no one likes Fabio anymore. =(
I don't think HBO gives a fuck about focus testing. They ran The Wire for 5 seasons for gods sake. That guy left to go film a reboot to the Transporter movies and replace Jason Statham. And honestly I didn't even remember what the guy looks like. It has been a year. I just remembered the character as that one other dude who was rolling with Daenerys so I went along with it.
I think they replaced him because he was fucking awful. He came off extremely sleazy, whereas the new guy has exhibited some measure of charm that could result in him believably wooing Daenerys. Left Dude shows up in a scene, Dany gets all googoo eyes for him, and all it gets out of me is a groan and an eye roll--the Khaleesi has become too self-assured to fall for that kind of behavior in my mind. Mr. Generic certainly doesn't stand out like Old Daario, but I find that preferable to having a caricature where a character should be.
I haven't read the books so I don't know which actor is more accurate, but I prefer the new one. Michael Huisman's character in Treme went from the least liked in season one to one of the most liked by the end of the series. That show was so boring and over-rated, but he was such an unexpected surprise and one of the few relatable characters on that show; he was one of the few reasons why I kept watching it.
I agree with @spoonman671. At least Huisman has already shown some level of charm. For me, he's done more in a few scenes than the first guy did all last season. The other guy was kind of a tool and I wasn't buying Daenerys' attraction towards him. Being reasonably good-looking and decent with a sword only went so far.
It's cool if the first guy went on to do better things, but him leaving was a blessing in disguise. No offense to the first actor, but I would’ve preferred a change even if there wasn’t a Transporter reboot.
Sadly, my guess (with no insight whatsoever) is that Mr. Left Picture did not focus test well enough. Viewers liked Robb/Jon more and when it came time for Season 4 they evaluated who they could get to be the new heartthrob for the ladies and Daario made sense to get a do-over. I guess no one likes Fabio anymore. =(
I don't think HBO gives a fuck about focus testing. They ran The Wire for 5 seasons for gods sake. That guy left to go film a reboot to the Transporter movies and replace Jason Statham. And honestly I didn't even remember what the guy looks like. It has been a year. I just remembered the character as that one other dude who was rolling with Daenerys so I went along with it.
I think they replaced him because he was fucking awful. He came off extremely sleazy, whereas the new guy has exhibited some measure of charm that could result in him believably wooing Daenerys. Left Dude shows up in a scene, Dany gets all googoo eyes for him, and all it gets out of me is a groan and an eye roll--the Khaleesi has become too self-assured to fall for that kind of behavior in my mind. Mr. Generic certainly doesn't stand out like Old Daario, but I find that preferable to having a caricature where a character should be.
I haven't read the books so I don't know which actor is more accurate, but I prefer the new one. Michael Huisman's character in Treme went from the least liked in season one to one of the most liked by the end of the series. That show was so boring and over-rated, but he was such an unexpected surprise and one of the few relatable characters on that show; he was one of the few reasons why I kept watching it.
I agree with @spoonman671. At least Huisman has already shown some level of charm. For me, he's done more in a few scenes than the first guy did all last season. The other guy was kind of a tool and I wasn't buying Daenerys' attraction towards him. Being reasonably good-looking and decent with a sword only went so far.
It's cool if the first guy went on to do better things, but him leaving was a blessing in disguise. No offense to the first actor, but I would’ve preferred a change even if there wasn’t a Transporter reboot.
Hah. I'm sorry, guys, but I gotta say I'm pretty amazed none of you bothered to look it up. Took me five seconds:
http://time.com/51699/game-of-thrones-daario-naharis/
Original-Daario wanted to instead try his hand at The Transporter franchise reboot. I guess he figured he'd be better off trying his hand in a lead role, rather than a fairly minor character in a role that might not last that long (I haven't read the books, but I'm assuming he's more than likely to be gone before the series is over).
And I liked the original guy way more. New-Daario looks super generic; like they just wanted another Jon Snow (my least favorite character by far), though we've only seen a few lines of dialogue from him, so I'm still ready to have my mind changed.
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