Game of Thrones Season 4 - The Thread

Have you been watching The Wire?

Probably just that Jaime has been back for some time and she hasn't been putting out. He probably doesn't like being treated like a child or her pet. Shes been being a bitch, she isn't putting out, tells him to kill Tyrion, and sprinkles some kissing in there, IMO as a like "you miss this? well do what I say and you might get some again" and he was just like.. fuck this emasculating bullshit I'm taking you now.

I've never been a big TV person, but jesus I love this show. Tyrion and that horny prince guy are awesome.

(why I love this show is that I find myself saying different characters are awesome with each season/episode)

@nightriff: My friends asked exactly the same thing. I thought he sounded the same, but maybe I'm insane.

I don't get the hate for "Dragon Girls" storyline. I think just seeing her amass power and knowing she has this seemingly unstoppable force builds tension and anticipation. When she eventually crosses the sea, all hell is gonna break loose. Plus she has cool characters hanging around with her.

Anyways I think this season has been pretty rad so far, which is surprising considering I saw a few people saying this season wouldn't be great because of the books it was coming from or something.

Yeah that Jaime scene was really weird. All I could think was "Whoa, sure don't remember this in the books." It really flies in the face of all the things they've done to make him more likable. I imagine they'll try and clean it up a little in the next episode somehow, because it really doesn't make any sense for the arc of his character. Other than that I thought it was a great episode. I'm concerned with how quickly they're burning through Arya plot though. All I remember after this was something with a boat, The Hound somehow sustaining a wound and dying, and then Arya heading to Braavos, and I'm not sure how they're going to stretch that across the next seven episodes.

Also if people are growing impatient with Dany's story right now, I can't wait to see their reactions over the next couple of seasons. I do think it would be better if instead of 6-7 minutes of Dany time every episode we got 20 minutes every 3 or so.

Also I love Davos (Captain Beard), and I feel like I'm the only person, because my friends all think he's boring as shit. Can someone tell me if I'm alone or not?

Absolutely. If this wasn't incest it would be totally understandable.

From the perspective of someone who hasn't read the books, I don't find Jamie's scene to be all that out of place. He's finally been pushed to the breaking point, as he's been formally disowned, literally unhanded, the only person he has ever loved is trying to get him to kill the only man he is friends with, his only female friend is riding his ass about a promise that he's in no position to fulfill, his only great accomplishment makes him universally reviled, and now he's had two kings die under his protection.

Well, three, but, y'know. One of those was a bit more intentional on his part. Hell, that fucker wanted him to kill his father, so maybe he's drawing a parallel to that?

I just think he figured shit couldn't possibly get worse after losing his damn hand. Things were finally looking up! I mean, he made a friend, traveled back to familiar ground where the woman he loves is waiting, and had a "I'm going to do positive things!" sort of attitude going for him (at least as far as keeping Brienne happy, although his outlook on the whole hand thing is understandably dour), and everyone just starts shitting all over him from the moment he tries to say hello.

Except for Tyrion, who has to be killed. By him. Because his sister said so.

I think he just snapped. I don't know if he's going to stay snapped, or immediately regret fucking his sister hard enough to nearly knock the corpse of his son off its plinth, but he needed a tiny moment of power, so he took it. Fucked up as it was.

@hunter5024: I think Davos' storyline is a great counterpoint for many of the story arcs. While everyone is diving headlong into wars of succession or praying to fire gods or running from ice zombies, he's trying to learn to read while remaining the last sane voice on an increasingly crazy island. Plus, they approach his literacy status with the same kind of gravitas as Danny's dragons torching a town. He's a breath of fresh air.

@singingmenstrual: Woah, chill. I said in my post that I haven't read ahead. It's pure speculation.

Well, there goes Jaime's heel-face turn!

Ok then I apologize.

I really like this show, but I don't like how almost all of it is just postponing the stuff you want to see played out. I can't help but feel I will ultimately be disappointed. For instance, the death of Joffrey in the second episode of season 4 was something I was looking forward to (as probably many did) but he ultimately only gets poisoned? No confrontation whatsoever? Meh. Also, I feel like they need to quickly establish a new active threat. Ever since they killed off a bunch of characters at the Red Wedding it all seems a little tame. I am certainly not enjoying the stuff post-Red Wedding as much as I did before. A lot of potentially awesome stuff is missing.

I agree so much. GRRM, it seems to me, has really taken it too far with his postponing of the major resolutions and confrontations we've been waiting for all along, as well as his.. edgy way of refuting our expectations and doing the unexpected when it comes to character deaths and how some wars turned out. You've hated Joffrey for three seasons and have been expecting Sansa to impale him with a light saber on top of his palace while Tyrion slaps him to death with explosive palms? Here, he choked on poison and died in his mother's arms at his wedding. Next episode, he's already old news and his brother is the new king. What about the fact that he wasn't really Robert's son? What about the fact that the rightful king taking the throne was a really important thing? No? His little brother takes the throne and that's it? I dunno man, it's disappointing as fuck.

The Stannis situation has become even more tedious and filler than Dany's situation. Theon's destiny after he fucking destroyed our beloved Winterfell is also dumb and unsatisfying. I mean, sure not everyone gets revenge in the real world, but at least SOMEONE should succeed in their plans.. The fact that literally only Tywin is getting what he wants is ridiculous. GRRM didn't want all the good guys to get what they want, so he made the bad guy get everything? Stupid.

We have the bluest balls right now and the things that were supposed to be important are fading away, I dunno what the point is any more.

I mean sure it seems more life-like and realistic that things are turning out the way they are, as opposed to a typical fantastical good-versus-evil plot development, but it's getting ridiculous.

I've highlighted the part in bold as tot he reason the show runners did it. Jamie Lannister became too likeable in the show. Everyone seems to have forgotten he is in fact, a massive dick.

Onion Knight rocks duder. You are not alone.

@griffinmills: Onion Knight and that pimp black pirate dude from season 1 or 2 need to get a spin off show in which they adventure around the world getting into crazy situations and arguing over pirates vs smugglers.

**Season 4 episode 3 spoilers**

I'm sorry but I don't understand how what he did is supposed to be bad or makes the viewer like him less? The two have loved each other since forever and have done it for ages, what else is new? It was bound to happen after his return, and the death of their child made them emotional and helped make it happen. Are you saying you expected him to no longer desire this incest, and he flushed that 'goodwill' down the crapper when he made love to her? I expected many good things from him after his traumatic experience, such as being more humane and less cocky, and to be aware of his evil past and feel remorse, but his love for his sister I did not expect to change. It's love, not a shitty attitude or bad manners that you can 'improve.'

Needless to say I'm against it and find it despicable, I'm just talking from his perspective as a lover. Basically, if you remove the fact that they're siblings, it's totally understandable.

He's probably my favourite character. Seems to be one of the few people with their head screwed on right.

I'd also like to see more of the assassin that helped Arya. I haven't read the books, so I wouldn't know if he has a significant role or not.

@singingmenstrual: Judging by the reactions of people on the internet, on twitter, my friends lists and in the office, most people are shocked at seeing Jamie raping her and doing it next to their dead child.. A lot of people I know, and as shown by Sanj themselves, started rooting for Jamie, because Jamie on the tv show was becoming too likeable. People were forgetting all the bad things he's done because of his stint as Mr. Comedy with Tall Fighter Woman.

The part where it's rape.

Daenerys is a boring Mary Sue, this season they're losing or making irrelevant most of the best actors on the show (number 2 already gone) so while this season will be good and has been good I can't see the show being quite as interesting down the road when things become less about intrigue and more about magical bullshit plot macguffins.

@singingmenstrual: It's not about the fact that he's still in love with his sister, but the fact that he raped her.

I still really like the show though. I'm just worried I will be left disappointed eventually because of how things seem to play out. I have to admit, I am the kind of guy that likes to see good guys win after going through all kinds of shit, so that might reveal why I feel this way. So far, it is a lot of 'evil' winning and Joffrey was just an example of 'evil' finally losing, but then in a very anticlimactic way.

I just hope not the entire series will go like that. For instance, if we finally get to see Aria in a combat situation and it turns out she gets immediately killed or she is just 'average', I will be seriously disappointed. I like building tension and I admit there is something to having that be for 'nothing', but if all of it is for nothing always, then that just seems like a cheap trick. I want to eventually finish watching this series feeling satisfied and I am slightly worried if that will happen.

Of the top of my head I can't really think of a moment that panned out rewarding to watch for me after the conflict reached its end. We are in the fourth season and that is what is making me worry. As I said, postponing can be very cool, but I just hope I won't have to wait 4 more seasons before I can see some of it panning out.

Oh boy..

Ok, this topic is a landmine, especially on the internet. Rape is the most despicable and horrible act a man can commit, but if you are unaware of the very realistic situation where some women 'hold out' for a variety of reasons while they actually crave the love making and end up enjoying it, well, to each their own. And, to be honest, it tells me you were never in a 'hot' relationship.

I'm not saying that when a man forces himself on a woman, she 'totes wants it.' Hell no. I'm saying that in some cases where there's affection and a sexual past between the two, some girls do this. Neither one of us knows what Cersei actually had in mind. But based on their past, how much they madly loved one another, how much she craved him while he was away, how she blamed him for being away for too long when he returned, how emotional they both were over the death of their child, how they french kissed before she stopped because, and I quote, "it's not right," and how while saying no she grabbed his cheek and frenched him again before he lay her down on the ground (picture below), this sure as hell looks like that romantic scenario to me.

I never had sex, but I groped and was groped by some girls in my time. It only got serious once, in a dorm's park, less than two years ago. She said no while giggling and pushed me away, I forced myself into her blouse based on her signals and our sexting past, and we sure as fuck had fun afterwards. She texted me all the way home. If you believe I just told you that I raped someone, with all due respect you're in denial.

The crazy thing about internet justice is that I feel like I just committed a crime by saying this, even though it totally fucking happens in real life when there's affection involved and I experienced it first hand.

@singingmenstrual: By knowing this am...am I an accessory to a crime..?

Episode 3 spoilers.

The thing about the rape scene that sort of annoys me, is how people are applying modern, "real world" values to fictional characters living in one of the most fucked up place there is. In this world, you get killed for treason or desertion, but if you rape someone? Eh I guess we'll send you to the wall or something... Tywin basically ordered Tyrion to rape Sansa last season, if you remember. In this context, a rape scene isn't a problem in itself. I think that part of the "controversy" is ridiculous. No, this show doesn't say "rape is okay", it simply depicts a world in which women are often just a commodity and rape is, sadly, commonplace.

At the end of the day though, after reading the book version of the scene (without context, granted), I absolutely think it was unecessary. Parents having sex in front of their dead kid was disturbing enough I think, I'm not sure what rape adds to the equation. And yes, it was rape.

@singingmenstrual Your post made me cringe.

totally, guy's loyal as fuck.

My girlfriend also thought his voice had changed, yet I didn't notice a thing. Also neither of us watch The Wire.

The books are FULL of rape. If it's not to do with the main characters, it's mentioned quite often. Any kind of medieval setting would of course be filled with rape. Rape was extremely commonplace hundreds of years ago, especially in the dark ages. Not to mention that women were seen to be "of age" the moment they started menstruating. There is misogyny and sexism and rape in the TV show because the world in which the story is set is full of misogyny, sexism, and rape. Unless you are a powerful woman with influence, you are basically cattle, because that's the way shit was in medieval times. You cant compare it to our reality, because it is a fictional world. I don't understand how anyone can get up in arms about that.

I like the Onion Knight's chapters. There's something about them. One of my favourites is probably when he's stranded on the island after the Blackwater battle. He's in his head and there's a dream like quality to it. Not a good dream for Davos.

Also I think I think the actor is a good fit for the role.

Been thinking about Littlefinger and the "Purple Wedding".

Reasons Littlefinger would conspire to kill Joffrey:

• Revenge for killing Catelyn Stark, the woman he's always loved
• Gain favour with Lysa Arryn (nee Tully, Cat's sister from season 1) who he was sent to court (if successful he'd become the Lord of Vale)
• Power vacuum is an opportunity for chaos to erupt again in Westeros, Littlefinger seems at his best when working with chaos (opportunity to increase standing)

Reasons the Queen of Thorns would conspire with Littlefinger:

• Release Margaery from commitment to Joffrey
• Gain favour with the the Vale
• Gain favour with possible claimant to the north (Sansa)
• Diminish Lannister reputation

Reasons the Onion Knight (Sir Davos) is awesome:

• He's learning to read (stay in school kids)
• He carries his knucklebones around his neck as a reminder of where he came from and where he is
• Survived a wildfire explosion
• He's a neutral good smuggler
• Beard

You know what? It's a fictional show and Cersei deserves worst. Period. I'm not going to try to make some kind of real world vs fiction comparison because the world in a Game of Thrones is a fucked up place. Considering all the terrible things that have happened to various character over the course of the show it's a bit laughable to see stories pop up about the scene.

Where the hell was all the outrage over what happened to Daenerys in season 1? That scene was so much worst because she was a young girl that was sold off to a barbarian by her own brother. He knew Daenerys was going to get raped and he didn't give a fuck. What was the reaction? You had book people telling new viewers, "Don't worry. Daenerys is actually a very strong female character so just wait and see."

Comments in those stories have rightly called them out as being click bait. What about Theon Greyjoy? Where were the articles written about that scene? The internet cheered when he was brutally tortured and eventually raped to prepare his penis for the chopping block.

@hunter5024 said:

Love him! He's totally worthy of Sea.

@singingmenstrual: Did your lucky lady also say "Please not here." "Stop, it's not right." "Stop please." while attempting to push you off? Did she have her dead child that she was just grieving over in the room with you? Were your responses to her "Don't." and "Please don't" something along the lines of "I don't care?"

Since you admitted to be inexperienced, small tip: what you did and what you saw here are not the same things.

@golguin: I thought the reaction to Danny in season one was "That's fucking brutal, I hope Viserys and Drogo get fucked up for this" which morphed to "Drogo and Danny really seem to care for each other, but Viserys still needs to get his" and finally "Yeah, that's what Viserys deserved." Dunno, that was my reaction at least.

I think it's simply that this incident is much more similar to the most common form rape takes today, which is date-rape. Two people in an established relationship, the woman says "no" and the man goes for it anyway. Ignoring the fact that Cersei is participating in this act, by modern, real-world standards this is sexual assault--and a kind that makes people uncomfortable due to its familiarity. I certainly don't think there's anything to be upset about, and frankly, I think it's questionable whether this is actually an instance of rape.

I don't believe it has anything to due with date rape or any other form of rape. It is click bait through and through. I've been reading the comments for various stories and there is an overwhelming consensus on the hypocrisy of making this scene an article in the face of every other terrible thing that has happened. These are comments coming from both men and women that are clearly fans of the show.

They were hoping for another "Girls" controversy where a character willingly went along with a sexual encounter that she didn't really want, but instead they got a slap in the face from Game of Thrones fans who could smell the BS.

EDIT: The comments in these articles have been very civil and they make their point very clear. I really liked this comment.

http://time.com/70829/game-of-thrones-rape/

JeanetteBarrett

To Eliana Dockterman: Rape is a very serious crime and not one to be made light of. And I believe that at whatever point a woman says no is the point at which the man should desist. Having said that, this was no rape. These are two actors portraying a scene that is, I would imagine, disturbing to many people, on many different levels. And while I agree that the popularity of the show had garnered a large audience, in which there undoubtedly are many younger viewers, the rape scene was no more disturbing, I dare say, than Catelyn Stark's throat being sliced to the bone, or Ned Stark's beheading, or the very idea that these two "lovers" are brother and sister. Further, I would add, that any children in the audience should absolutely be supervised by their parents in the watching of this TV series, since it contains much violence and adult content.

And for that reason, I think your article was superfluous. I can't imagine there were many of us sitting around after the show discussing whether Cersei was actually raped or not. It didn't matter, since it was fictional. We do not condone the beheading of people in our society just as we don't condone the rape of individuals. It goes without saying that we, in our ordinary lives, do not encounter such encounters and if they were that disturbing on our television sets, we could always just turn the channel. And block the channel from our children if we felt strongly enough about this series and its depictions of sex, violence and darkness.

*sing*

Everywhere you go,

People want to know,

"Game of Thrones

Do you watch it?

It really pwns

All other shows"

All this Onion Knight love. It warms my heart.

(S4E3)

@lunnington: Ah, of course. It never even occured to me how Tyrion would fit into it all. It couldn't have been known that Joffrey would pick a fight with him, but Sansa disappearing from the capitol might've been enough on its own to cast suspicion in his direction. Littlefinger really has it out for Tyrion huh? First blaming him for Bran's assassination attempt and now this.

Breaking apart their marriage make sense. Although I don't think he can marry both Lysa and Sansa at the same time. Perhaps instead he'll try to bring Sansa under his wing? Or maybe marry Lysa, become Lord of Vale, kill Lysa and marry Sansa, and then become Lord of the North? Oof, dastardly.

@theht: Those are all certainly possible. He might think Sansa is weak enough to manipulate to his will and sort of "puppeteer" the North for him. He seems greedy enough for his end-goal to be the Iron Throne, so I imagine he wouldn't absolutely need to be the Lord of Winterfell.

One thing is certain though: If he has Sansa then he has a very valuable key to the North, no matter how he plans to use it.

I'll be honest, I didn't like the first season at all, and most of the rest outside of the red wedding. But fuck, I think I now genuinely am a fan of the series now that we're at Season 4. Took me long enough I guess. Having said that, I don't plan to read this thread because people that have read the books are kinda obnoxious about it.

It's also important to factor in what appears to be a situation in which Jaime has abstained from sex the entire time he has been back while Cersei seems to be unclear about what she actually wants from him, if anything. This of course doesn't mean that it's Cercei's fault, but when you add it to what you said (factoring in the cultural values/laws of this imagined world/time period) you get a man who feels insulted, as well as incredibly sexually frustrated, and probably doesn't see it as that bad of a thing to rape a woman essentially in payment for killing Tyrion (just speculating; don't read the books), a brother he cares about (or possibly being asked to kill his brother just angered him enough to push him over the edge, and he hasn't actually yet decided if he's going to go through with it).

For anyone offended, just remember we're talking about the motivations of fictional characters in a fictional universe, so don't think we apply any of this logic to the modern-day real world.

Putting that Jaime scene aside for a moment (since it's still a point of contention, worryingly...), other than being very disturbing and horrendously flippant, the argument of “it’s a really fucked up fictional world, no need to apply real world logic, it's not as big a deal in GOT” is a load of horseshit. Despite it being a fucked up world, rape is still a crime in that world. People are still people, victims are still victims; the crime is no less horrific in that world than it is real life. People are executed or sent to “The Wall” for raping. You could never see Jon Snow, Eddard Stark, Tyrion Lannister or Rob Stark attempting to rape anyone, because we know they're decent people. We judge these characters by our own standards of morality, and so humans will always be humans, regardless of the fictional setting. Obviously no "good guy" is squeaky clean in GOT, but again, that's also the case in real life. There's a lot of killing in GOT, but the world and stakes are such that there's no real way of getting around it. However, the same cannot be said for men and their dicks in GOT when it comes to something as fucked as rape.

Edit: I edited/inserted more text for clarity. I don't think I had expressed my outrage adequately enough. This discussion alone has left me feeling extremely uncomfortable.

Rape is literally one of the nicer things that can happen to you in the world of Game of Thrones compared to how bad things could go for you. Think about that for a second and let it sink in. Would you prefer the Theon Greyjoy situation?

So what? If someone tries to rape in this world, should he tell his victim "well, it could be worse, I could also be dismembering you with a rusty saw" to make his crime seem less awful? It'd make absolutely no difference to the victim. And the horrible things that can happen to you in GOT are not exclusive to that world. It may not be a dragon setting you on fire, but it can be a psychopath with a flame-thrower.