GoT: Did George R.R. Martin ruin it?

Duders...

If you haven't seen/read Game of Thrones, well, consider this your spoiler warning.

I'm getting kinda tired of Game of Thrones. It's just so damned unbalanced, and (surprise) the Red Wedding scene really bothered me. I read a interview with George R.R. Martin, where he openly admits that he only wrote the Red Wedding scene for the shock factor.

"I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do." - George R.R. Martin

At a certain point, if you keep killing off your only likeable characters, there won't be any reason to follow the series. It doesn't matter if the bad guys lose in the end, if you've got no one to root for on the way. There are literally three characters that I care about at this point: Jon Snow, Arya and Jorah Mormont.

Let's take a look at what the three main factions have lost:

• Starks: Ned, Robb, Cat (who also died thinking all/most her children were dead), Lewyn, Grey Wind, Lady, Winterfell and the damned war.
• Lannisters: Jamie's hand. Literally, his hand.
• Kahleesee: Her child and Dhrogo

It's obvious to me that Martin created the Starks for a single reason. He created a noble, honorable and likeable family, that you basically have to be a serial killer to dislike, and then use them as the punching bag of Westeros, to force a totally undeserved emotional response.

Eddard, Robb and Jon were my favorite characters. Now, only one of them are still kicking. Considering the first FUCKING thing that shows up is "Jon Snow dead", in the suggestions if you Google him, I don't exactly have high hopes for him either.

So, duders, what do you think? Did George R.R. Martin create one of the best fantasy stories of all time, and subsequently ruin it for the sake of being unpredictable? I think yes. At least the setting is cool...

And two reminders:

• Keep this civil
• Don't spoil future events!

I still love it. Its not about any singular characters, its about telling the story of a world. At the end of the fifth book, what's happening is really interesting.

No. Of course not. Most people who have read the books see the war as a relatively minor story arc. I think it's stupid to boycott the show over this before you've bothered finding out what happens next.

And in a way it breaks the traditional romantic story. I kind of knew going in that anyone can go at any moment but my mentality still drifted towards, "Well, there'll be a hero and he won't die the whole time". But That last episode really kind of broke that for me. As much as I hated everyone I like dying, I like that it's something different for me to experience in the long run and not the run of the mill hero saves the day.

@mariachimacabre: not surprised people are doing that. Everyone always clings to the familiar and comforting, even in violent fiction.

Your rage and disappointment at the loss of these characters is proof of your investment. And don't worry... it's still a very good series, up until the very end of the most recent book.

And as far as likable characters? Tyrion, Arya. End of story. Those are the only two you'll ever need. Fuck Sansa, even though I've never heard ANYONE say they like her.

Edit: Actually, Jon Snow's a pretty BAMF too.

Hordor

Can't wait for the people raging at this to see how they feel at the end of the next season. YOUR TEARS SUSTAIN ME!

I haven't watched the show, but I am currently on Book 4 of the series. I like it because it is different. Life is unpredictable. Bad things happen to good people. Good doesn't always win out in the end. There are way too many fantasy stories based around the usual tropes of an "all hero" who struggles against a generic bad guy and prevails to get the girl and live happily ever after.

Who needs to see that again? When Ned Stark lost his head, I knew this story was going to be something different. And it hasn't disappointed. The characters are interesting and multi faceted. There generally isn't a defined "good" and "bad" side. It is what it is.

Well not spoiling anything past the TV show, yea it does seem like a dark place, but your still 2.5 books behind in the series. The world is a dark, dangerous place with little-to-no room for the romantic heroes the Starks want to be. I.... Just keep watching. or, better yet, get the books and read them, you'll be years ahead of the show and have a much more complete view of the story.

I don't read game of thrones but your question is so hilarious.

DID THE AUTHOR OF GAME OF THRONES RUIN GAME OF THRONES?

everyone knows it's not a good dark fantasy story until you kill everyone likable.

CHANGE THE ENDING TO MASS EFFE....THE RESULT OF THE RED WEDDING RARRRR (Go book nerds!)

The thing with GoT that I've noticed from talking to friends/family/message boards is that a lot of people say "Why you kill off the loveable characters!?", usually referring to the Starks, but then a whole lotta people come out to defend other character as their favorites. I have personally talked to people who have liked characters like Joffrey. And where I think he is a royal douche, I have never really liked any of the Starks except Arya.

The point of GoT is to show that no one is above the axe, and it falls on everyone, eventually. The Red Wedding is a great scene for me because it does 2 things, 1) Shows that nothing is sacred in the savage land of Westeros, and 2) Kills off 2 characters I really didn't like, thus increasing time for characters I do like.

If the final book is just Roose and Littlefinger plotting against eachother for 800-1000 pages I'd be happy.

Defeats make the victories that much sweeter

Hated Robb. Didn't love Catelyn. Robb's wife was pretty vestigial. I was so happy during this scene. More focus on the interesting characters, now. You people seem to forget about Ned stark and the fairly-popular prostitutes/handmaidens that've been killed off. Play me that Stannis anthem and let's do this shit.

Episode three of Puella Magi Madoka Magica I'd like to bring up as a similar example, for jerks who watch anime (and maybe the final of School Days while at it). Made my jaw drop physically and mentally, as did this only far far harder. Never read the books but I think better of GRRM after this.

Especially considering the real meat of the story is the White Walkers returning. The whole 'game of thrones' being played is more or less nothing in the grand scheme of things. Besides, sure Robb and Catelyn were pretty important characters to the story, but there are plenty of other characters that are still doing extremely important things.

I love the fact that anyone is fair game to get killed off. It's not some lame attempt at shocking the audience, it's meant to show that anything can happen and nobody is safe just because they are a main character.

Believe me. George knows what he is doing.

Apparently it's a catalyst for where the series goes from here and is probably the most pivotal moment in the books. Not really surprising considering what it is, so I wouldn't question it until we know what precedes it. Martin definitely didn't ruin the whole show because of two deaths, at least for me anyway. Out of all the characters Robb is somewhere near the bottom in terms of interest, and Cat has barely featured this season. That didn't diminish the scene's impact, but I'm also not angry like a lot of the internet seems to be. It was a fantastic scene and completely unexpected despite the foreshadowing, and I'm invested in so many other characters, as well as the whole universe, that two substantial deaths isn't going to deter me. I'm just excited to see where it goes from here. Unpredictability is always good, especially when it comes to a character's fate.

I also don't know how that Martin quotes says he only did it for the shock factor. That may be part of it but it's much more about the story and creating suspense, letting the audience know that anything can happen to anyone.

I think the Red Wedding is brilliant because it continues the trend starting with the death of Ned Stark that no one has protagonist immunity in this series, and if anything he plays it a bit too safe in the next two books.

The side effect of it is that the Stark family isn't really the center of the story anymore, and I could see that as a valid complaint, since it leads to perhaps two of my least favorite supporting characters getting their own chapters in book 4 and the plot starts taking its sweet time to progress to anything relevant.

Seeing the Lannisters win every single time in the first season was more nerve-racking for me. Robbs death seems logical, although I didn't expect it so soon...

NOTE: Some very, very vague "spoilers" may follow.

The titular question isn't even worth addressing, as it is absurd. I will simply say that I do think the TV show makes it harder to 'latch' onto a breadth of characters. In the books, this is quite easy. For example, Jamie quickly became one of my favorite POV characters after Martin introduced him in A Storm of Swords. Furthermore, while some families seem extraordinarily loathsome in the first 2 novels, the introduction of multiple/new POV characters make these families/factions interesting, if not sympathetic.

As a sweeping and perhaps unhelpful generalization, people who I've talked with tend to really enjoy following story arcs in the books: Tyrion, Jon Snow, Daenarys, and Arya. For what it's worth, I've always found the entire Greyjoy family, Jamie, Tyrion, and Daenarys to be among my favorites. Arya is a great Stark character, and I think the show does Sansa's arc and character a bit of a disservice. As I recall, she is supposed to be quite young - and naive - and in the show she just appears a bit older than I imagined her. Few people I've spoken with ever mention Cat Stark as a "favorite," though it was from her POV that we heard the most about Robb's war efforts. I think people, ESPECIALLY show watchers, will have a hard time detaching from the Starks because we were introduced to so many of them so quickly (and the wolves are bad fucking ass); they were our first lens through which we could experience this violent world. I hope you keep up watching, as the plots continue to thicken and the political/familial intrigue continues - just from new angles.

And, just as a general bit of extremely vague foreshadowing: major characters will continue to die. If you simply cannot accept that, I'm not sure what will help you. By the end of A Dance with Dragons, Martin makes it exceptionally clear that characters who continuously make ill-advised decisions that put them in immediate danger can and will die. Also, a lot of seemingly savvy characters are in grave danger, too. Look out!

This post is already too long - hopefully you stick with the show!

@development: +1 for use of Stannis. And yeah. I remember some people I know complaining they ruined the show when Ned for his head chopped off. They seem to have forgotten that event and latched back onto the show.

@tonic7: That post didn't make me want to continue watching the show. It made me want to read the books. Might as well, because I'm way to curious to sit on my hands and wait for the next several years.

And let's be honest here. In the books there wasn't exactly a lot of development for Robb and Cat. Robb was especially kind of blah. He was more of a figurehead than an actual character like Arya, Tyrion, Jon, etc etc.

George RR Martin is a writer who isn't afraid to go where the story takes him and never spares a character or event just because it will upset the reader. If this kind of storytelling upsets you there are more very high highs and very low lows to come. For me personally I adore the man as a writer who takes chances, which is something many don't attempt anymore from fear of alienating the reader. Almost every event in ASoIF plays out on a global stage, the events that television viewers and readers see as major are just a droplet in the ocean of this worlds story and fiction.

I'd say "he did it for shock value" is a vast misinterpretation of Martin's words.

Anyway, the series already has an Ancient Evil for everyone to defeat, so I feel Martin's got his traditional fantasy stuff covered. Frankly, I'd give up the White Walkers entirely if it meant all political backstabbery, all the time - that trope is not a favorite of mine, at all - but I'm cool with it because Martin has demonstrated himself, through developments like the Red Wedding, to be very genre-aware.

GoT/ASOIAF is good (for what I'v read) but it's nowhere near one of the best fantasy books. Malazan Books of the Fallen is much smarter, less obvious and just a higher quality over all.

You know I have no attachment to Game of Thrones but I'd like George to write a script for a Dragon Age Series/Movie because that fiction is the same kind of grim-ass the world sucks and everyone dies kind of dark fantasy. I think he could do it justice.

It is a bit like Homefront.

"See, you have to crawl through a pile of dead bodies, because, hey, that's controversial and emotional."

Abrupt twists for the sake of abrupt twists and cutting surprises for the sake of forcing emotion can make for fascinating reading, but it's a bad habit in writing.

From what I've heard, it's difficult to find in the books, but that quote of Martin shows that he's completely fallen prey to it.

@legion_: I recommend them wholeheartedly to just about anyone who has the free time or is an avid reader (not even just a typical "fantasy reader"). I've blown through all of them, and I've even had to wait on the releases of the last 2; the changing and world-traversing POV chapter style keeps you reading like you have a kind of addiction. Martin has truly mastered the end of chapter 'cliffhanger' - to an almost frustrating extent.

The books will certainly open up a lot of the different POVs to you, and the show has undoubtedly focused on a few characters who get less time in the books - namely Robb.

As another bit of foreshadowing: all of the Stark family members have really interesting and important stuff coming up for them in future seasons.

Hell no. The problem with the Starks is that they always want to do the right thing in a world where that's the absolute dumbest option. That is why Ned and Robb are dead.

So the thread title is "Did GRRM ruin GoT?" Ironically, the answer is the exact opposite. Here's a quote from showrunner David Benioff from an interview about season 3:

The scene that we cannot mention. I just remember reading the book before we’d even written the pilot and thinking, “Oh, my God, we’ve got to get this. We’ve got to get this show to happen because if we can make this scene work, it’s gonna be one of the greatest things ever on television or film.”

So the Red Wedding didn't ruin Game of Thrones. It caused it to be created in the first place.

So is this another complaint from someone that hasn't read the books and is now judging Martin just because he killed off characters unexpectedly?

Please. Come up with valid complaints instead, like how he focuses on too many characters at once and can be often very wordy. Still good reads, though.

Exactly. I haven't read the books, but it's so refreshing to have a show whose lead writer actually has balls. I guess this thread is an example of the collateral damage that decisions like that are guaranteed to make.

why doesnt George RR Martin use Twitter?

cause he killed all 140 characters ;)

No. It keeps getting more and more compelling. I love his decisions (except for the Theon torture fest.. please let it end).

Never read the books but the show is sinking its claws into me ever deeper.

What is the point of this thread? Seriously the show or books aren't over, you have no idea how things are yet to play out. If you haven't read the books you should read them, if you want to wait for the show then stop complaining about things that you could easily find out by reading the books.

All I have to say is ... be patient and stop clinging to any one particular character. Enjoy the story for what it is.

I'm absolutely with you. The biggest problem is that he is killing the most interesting characters and introducing subpar ones to continue the story (to be honest, any character introduced after the first book aren't that great). For example, I couldn't give a damn about Stannis, being one of the first post-first book characters introduced. He is a boring politician. And soon when all the most likeable or evil characters die off, nothing really matters anymore. I feel like the books have already dragged on longer than they should.

Dragon Age steals liberally from A Song of Ice and Fire and then waters it all down with traditional fantasy tropes to questionable effect. It'd be a decent match, but only because of some of the direct parallels between those two franchises are a bit too obvious to ignore.

I think some people are more suited to watching Castle or House where they put a character in a dangerous situation, play some dramatic music, cut to ad break and then come back with the same character perfectly fine and safe. After the first few times those shows never get any sense of suspense back and deservedly so.

Such weak television right there.

@legion_: One more thing the Starks lose: Bran's ability to walk.

Anyway, the books get progressively worse. The last one was terrible, and I only read it for Arya. *spoiler* she's still alive in that book.

Robb Stark was never an important character in the series. Also OP, the first completion for pretty much all characters are such and such dead or such and such dies, etc. These are people asking if they die, or things like that, which brings these results up.

Dragon Age was explicitly drawing inspiration from the series Game of Thrones is based on, so the similarities are definitely there.

Very last book. Hordor will actually talk and say something silly. Everyone laughs. Fade credits.

Reminds me of watching Beast Wars, where every episode the Maximals clashed with the Predacons, but nothing ever happened! So ridiculous.

@excast: You should check out The First Law if you haven't already.

His logic seems quite flawed. If you have as a goal to not do the predictable thing you're just predictable in a different way. The way he describes it it seems like he's just writing the "anti"-story. If anything I don't think he killed the series at all, but the way the storytelling has changed from season 1 to now makes the format of a weekly TV show less and less viable. I don't think necessarily the "game of thrones" needs to be the overall arc of the show but this last season has definitely lacked any sense of connective tissue between the stories and the character bloat has also put a real damper on things moving forward.

I think letting the bad guys win would be shallow of George. Not only does that go against what art stands for in general, but it would just be a bad story then. I would feel like the whole story would be a waste of time if the Lannisters came out triumphantly in the end. One thing to note though is that in the book, Robb's character is not as "likable". He's not a main perspective and is more obnoxious towards his mother than in the show. The show probably made it seem like his character was more honorable in order to build drama up to the point where he gets killed.

@jonny_anonymous: I read Gardens of the Moon last year, and it's really interesting, and has some really strong aspects of it, but the worldbuilding is less appealing - it's obvious that Martin's world is based on history and Erikson's is based on fantasy games, and I find the former significantly more appealing in literature - the way it uses magic as a plot device is much more heavy handed, and Erikson just isn't as good of a storyteller as Martin is IMO. I guess maybe whether you like one or the other says something about one.

The two main characters are still alive, I think only 2 PoV characters have died so far. Robb is a side character at best and his death shouldn't have been a shock. If you make dumb decisions in this universe you die, simple as that.