#1 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

Hello dear GB users. My name is Roman, I am 22 years old, born and raised in Ukraine. I love my country, and I want to ask the most prominent community that I know of on internet to help spread the word.

First of all let's start with revolution. On 30 of November President Yanukovich decided that he had enough with peaceful demonstration, and forcefully tried to remove people that had legitimate cause to be there(it's in our Constitution), then after few month thing started to escalate, I do not want to get into detail, but we now have a new government and for better or worse(time will tell) they started functioning. Second on 28 of February Putin have deploid military troops in Crimea(violating Budapest treaty of 1994, as well as other international treaties and laws). Russian military troops are trying to take our bases, so far no shots fired, and civilian people are defending our troops and military bases along with our soldiers.

So I am asking for your help please spread the word, neither ukrainians nor russians want war, If you know any reporters or people in high places please open their eyes, Putin is invading our country, so if anybody chip in I think we can make a difference. Because it's not 1993 we cannot live in a world like this, there informational war, people all over the world are being brainwashed. I am not saying I know everything but I know for sure he must be stopped. Sorry for typos if you have any questions, I will gladly answer.

news channel with mostly true information :

http://24tv.ua/?lang=en

#2 Edited by Humanity (9017 posts) -

This will sound overly harsh but Ukraine will need to first and foremost help itself and overcome this crisis in order to once and for all determine independence from Russia. I'm afraid the EU and United States will for the most wag their fingers for weeks on end while Russia continues to do as it pleases, as it always happens.

#3 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@humanity: All I am asking is to spread the word, and do not act like nothing is happening.This can lead to World War.Also we declared our independence in 1991.And how we can deal with all of our problems, if we are being invaded.

#4 Posted by Chaser324 (6394 posts) -

It definitely looks like some shifty stuff going on over there. Hopefully NATO and the EU can apply some pressure behind the scenes to push this toward a peaceful resolution.

Keep yourself safe.

Moderator
#5 Posted by Abendlaender (2779 posts) -

Great to see the worth of the Budapest Memorandum in action. I'm sure this will really convince other nations to give up their nuclear arsenal.

#6 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@abendlaender: Yeah I am starting to think that was a bad move.

#7 Posted by Stonyman65 (2657 posts) -

The word IS getting out. The problem is that nobody on the other side of the world cares enough to do more than finger wagging and talk of imposing sanctions on Russia. I really hope that changes.

#8 Edited by Devil240Z (3314 posts) -

I'm not very up on current events so I don't know what if anything is being said about it in the US media. Are major news outlets even saying anything about this situation?

#9 Posted by Humanity (9017 posts) -

Great to see the worth of the Budapest Memorandum in action. I'm sure this will really convince other nations to give up their nuclear arsenal.

It was incredibly foolish to ever think that Russia will keep their word when it is no longer convenient for them to do so.

#10 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@devil240z: Can't say for sure, but just minutes ago I've seen John Kerry commenting on situation.

#11 Posted by Abendlaender (2779 posts) -

I'm not very up on current events so I don't know what if anything is being said about it in the US media. Are major news outlets even saying anything about this situation?

Dude....it's basically every headline right now.

#12 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5352 posts) -

We actually talked about this sort of thing happening way back when Russia invaded Georgia in a class I was taking about Russia at the time; sort of wish I could just take that class every year since there were so many current events involved. The late 80's teacher (who was a part of the literati in the USSR) accurately predicted that Putin would let Medvedev serve one turn prior to taking back the Presidency. It's very interesting to me as are all Crimean conflicts; though being powerless I can't do much more than observe. If only Sebastopol was still an impregnable fortress.

Here's a few good books about Crimean history: Crimea and Lost Victories

#13 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@humanity: Yeah but how much longer people will tolerate this, for example people protesting war between Ukraine and Russia in Saints Peterburg were arrested, and now have a criminal charges brought against them.

#14 Posted by Demoskinos (14730 posts) -

I tell ya Putin is just a fucking scumbag.

#15 Posted by Devil240Z (3314 posts) -

@devil240z said:

I'm not very up on current events so I don't know what if anything is being said about it in the US media. Are major news outlets even saying anything about this situation?

Dude....it's basically every headline right now.

I don't even really know how to see a headline... And I'm a couple weeks behind on the dailyshow/colbert report which is really my only real source of news.

#16 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: No you are not powerless, write,tweet, tell friend,colligues.

#17 Posted by MannyMAR (424 posts) -

I've been letting people know about the situation since I first heard about it 3 weeks ago. Your pleas do not fall on deaf ears my friend.

#18 Posted by ShadowConqueror (3050 posts) -

Secretary of State John Kerry is going there in a few days, but I doubt it will do much good. Russia hasn't bothered listening to the US regarding its affairs much in the past few years.

#19 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5352 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: People are too busy talking about the Oscars; that's America in a nutshell.

#20 Edited by Brodehouse (9776 posts) -

I'm afraid the best I can do for you is to gawk from the sidelines and try to learn something from it. My power amounts to informing others that Russia is acting like a thug.

#21 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Yes, and it's a common problem, people stopped carrying, they are forgetting 1914, and 1939 and it's a shame.

#22 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5352 posts) -

@brodehouse: Russia/Putin is acting to expand their own diplomatic power and to test the waters for expansion, back in 2008 we were more Jingoistic and economies weren't quite turned to shit yet so the global community was more interested in preserving the interests of a somewhat near country; the question is does an even more proximate country generate a similar response in a shittier time period. If the answer is no then a larger war is on the horizon.

#23 Edited by Tennmuerti (8059 posts) -

I am kind of on the fence in this situation. I have Ukrainian coworkers by the way, both in my office in Cyprus right now and in our Kiev office as well. Myself being born in Russia for full disclosure but not living there for a long time now, i have no love for that country left really. My perspective is also colored by working in one of the countries that are now finding out that belonging to EU is not all sunshine and rainbows these days with our own economical collapse and effectively Germans dictating economic terms as well as wanting to privatize parts of the now bankrupt country. Mostly writing this post just to provide a look at the other side of the coin for those interested.

Firstly Russia has held off doing anything for a while, Putin basically delayed action until the Sochi Olympics were over (out of self interest obv). There were also many reports of American trainers teaching drills to demonstrators, as well as straight up bribing people to provoke unrest. Secondly there was no singe Ukrainian people agreement of opinion, there were at least 2 major social factions from the different regional sides of Ukraine that wanted conflicting things, with only one of the factions doing most of the hostile actions, some want to split Ukraine. Thirdly while there was no direct intervention Ukrainians have been happy killing and maiming their own people up till now, with law enforcement personnel dying, getting burned with molotov cocktails and filling in hospitals with pretty grisly sights. Finally for the sparking "motivation" of this clusterfuck of a situation Ukrainians from my understanding wanted to join the EU and government said, no. But really I question the results of actions of people who want a theoretical economical improvement of their country (and last I visited a couple of years back things were on the upswing anyway) is to decimate their own towns and burn people, way to show the EU that Ukraine is ready for joining. But hey that's practically every revolution for you, you want a better lot, start the fires. America then went on to make comments that they would be willing to bring in troops along with Nato or by themselves to "peace keep" as usual. This was before Russia did anything by the way. Now say you are Russia/Putin, would you allow US to bring in troops into what is basically your backyard? I'd say - nah. Anyone with 2 braincells to rub together could have predicted this happening.

Again this is all only from information provided to me by my Ukrainian coworkers, of which there are people on both sides of the opinion of the situation, so there is going to be bias and there will maybe be misinformation in what I wrote.

You are right it was an informational war up to this point, with many sides spinning their own yarns.

But no there is going to be no World War, because the powers that be are too big for their own good, pitting such powers of equal power is suicidal. Which is why over the last decades both Russia and America have been dick waving and maneuvering at the expense of other countries, bullying and bring in their respective military's into countries that can't fight back. Russia brought in their troops first this time, they are closer, too close to allow US to do anything there, they flexed their muscles now, swung their dick. And the only thing that will push them out are going to be long diplomatic talks by very big boys.

And yes I agree it's fucked up, and that it's totally shit. And yes Putin is a ruthless scumbag (you have to be as a politician in Russia). But Ukraine got into this place by their own actions first of all. Unfortunately asshole Putin bringing in troops was inevitable as soon as other foreign powers got involved in the internal conflict (or even hinted at possible involvement). For what it's worth I want nothing more then for the troops to fuck off and for Ukraine to get back into functioning state again and start repairing the damage.

#24 Posted by Random45 (1119 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: People are too busy talking about the Oscars; that's America in a nutshell.

I hate this cynical attitude, come on now. What is the average US citizen supposed to do in your eyes? I'm positive that most US citizens are well aware of what is going on in Ukraine, but we can't really do anything about it. It's not like the issue is being ignored, the US government is doing what it can, but it's not like the government can really do much. Russia's involved, and chances are, the same thing will happen in Ukraine that happened in Georgia six years ago.

I think at this point we're just going to have to wait for Putin to bite the dust before any significant changes can be made.

#25 Posted by jakob187 (21662 posts) -

In all honesty, the whole situation is...well...I can't even fully decipher what the fuck is going on.

The people of Kiev started protesting and rioting against the douchebag heading the country because he was being a douchebag to the people. He was also trying to make deals with Russia rather than make deals with the EU to do...something about economy or something?

In turn, the douchebag ordered for the police force to start opening fire on people, killing something like 70 people and injuring a fuckload more.

The Ukrainian douchebag that headed the country was impeached...or left...or something, and now he's on the lamb...possibly in Crimea.

Putin sent troops into Ukraine because the douchebag wasn't in office anymore and he wants to...take control of the country? Take control of Crimea? Take control of nothing? Take control of everything? Just wave his dick around like he's a badass?

Meanwhile, there are some people in Ukraine that are doing pro-Russian demonstrations, and something about a ship that sided with Russia...

It's all so goddamn convoluted, and there doesn't seem to be any one place that has a full story on all the shit that is going on. This is why no one knows what the fuck is even going on, let alone what should be done about it.

More power to all the human beings that are trying to dodge bullets and stay alive. That's all I know. Beyond that, my father always told me two things about politics: "don't side with a party because parties are fucking stupid" and "don't even meddle in the politics of the East because it's more convoluted than anywhere else."

#26 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@tennmuerti: Most of what you said is true, yes we failed as people by choosing(mostly falcificated)president and government.Yes there are some people that want to join EU and others to join Russia.But nobody forced nothing apon anyone.Even if we signed that damned document it didn't meant we would join EU in at least 5-10 years.But tell me what joice do we have, our country is first line of defense for Russia territorially speaking,and it's not like we hate them.I understand that Putin afraid that maybe there will be revolution in Russia,after people in Russia saw that you can overturn corrupt government(at least partially), as far as World War don't be so sure, people like Putin can surprise you in big ways.Oh almost forgot this intervention was planned a long time ago, operation like this does not happens overnight.

#27 Edited by TruthTellah (8720 posts) -

Personally, I'm trying to bring it up as much as I can. It's getting a -lot- of news coverage, at least nationally, but the primary feeling I've seen is of powerlessness. Many people recognize how messed up it is, but after recent conflicts in Libya, Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere, a lot of people appear to be more skeptical than ever whether there's anything that can really be done to help.

Online, there's also the issue of competing narratives. I've primarily seen people condemning what seems like a rather blatant invasion by Russia into Ukraine, taking advantage of a moment when the country is more chaotic from recent protests and changes in the government, but there are also many, particularly in Russia and the Middle East, which seem to think Ukraine has been taken over by a Western-led coup and Russian forces are bravely saving their countrymen in the country or it's just a regional issue that the rest of the world shouldn't get involved in. They talk as though anyone that is not a "Soviet" or anti-Western is a "Nazi" or "Fascist". Even amongst those who recognize that what's going on appears to be wrong, a lot of people online seem to be of the opinion that they should be able to work it out themselves. Which I think is a good bit absurd. Ukraine has no way to genuinely put up a fight with Russia; if they want to take part of Ukraine, they can basically do so.

I understand a wide weariness with trying to resolve regional conflicts like this, but as you said, this is important. Putin shouldn't be able to get away with this. Not because Russia is evil or some trite cold war stereotype, but because Putin's grasp on the Kremlin is actively dragging Russia backwards. The Russian people deserve better, and Ukraine shouldn't be left to fall apart just because he's making a power play. Ultimately, Russians will have to resist the regime themselves, but as far as Ukraine goes, the international community does need to make sure part of their country is not simply taken away during this moment of unrest. The new Ukrainian government may have many of its own issues which need to be resolved, but their problems do not mean the Russian military can do whatever it likes.

Hang in there, @snakevsgiantbomb. The problems in Ukraine are starting to gain more traction globally, and especially after the Russian action today of surrounding Ukrainian military bases and setting up more of an occupation in Crimea, I think more and more people will be talking about it and pressuring their leaders for action. Hopefully military action will not be necessary and diplomacy can end the conflict, but with the Russian military digging in, I fear this won't be resolved very soon.

And the worst part is that Ukraine has enough other issues with the shakiness and corruption of its new leaders and festering civil divisions to deal with, and those won't go away in the face of the invasion. Ultimately, the ones most losing out in all of this are the average Ukrainian citizens, and for your sake, I pray a diplomatic solution can be found soon and progress toward repairing the country can be made.

#28 Edited by EuanDewar (4873 posts) -

How has the economical situation been in Ukraine for the past few years leading up to this? Every report I've seen on this whole incident has made it sound like Ukraine is still struggling to recover from when the recession properly hit in 2008. But @tennmuerti's post seems to imply he saw it as otherwise.

No facetiousness meant by any of my questions and good luck to you my friend and your country.

#29 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5352 posts) -

@jakob187: I would assume the objective is to achieve independence for Crimea as a sovereign nation (which would basically be a puppet state for Russia for the time being); Crimea definitely has a legitimate claim for sovereignty historically and culturally/ethnically. Ukraine is not a small nation though so even if it took a while they could probably still muster somewhere around 100,000 men and they're not exactly easy to occupy with such a large land area.

Edit: Evidently there's a whole shitload of Ethnic Russians in the Crimea so internally that's probably the justification.

#30 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@jakob187: First of all you father is a smart man.Second yes but our President is hiding in Russia, Protests most of them are funded by Russia, normal people in Crimea do not want a war, and nobody does, and as a matter of fact a few hours ago there was a political/civil debate on tv(the best one in last 5 years if you ask me)and people from government are saying that they are willing to give more power to people in Crimea if they want.I mean if you get to bottom of this nobody in Crimea are being devoted of their rights,and we are willing to give them more.I for a fact can say that our laws are not the worst in the world nor is our constitution, they just weren't being used properly because of corrupt government.

#31 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5352 posts) -

@random45: You haven't really brought up a particularly good reason to not talk about it. It's not so much cynicism, that's just reality; Americans are more interested in bullshit on Television than stuff that's happening in Eastern Europe/Africa/Asia; but Ukraine isn't that far from Western Europe so who knows what that will lead to in the future. The US is definitely on the road to being at least somewhat isolationist just as a result of the cultural disinterest in world affairs; might not happen immediately but you can kind of tell in the political sense because the two parties have essentially an identical foreign policy (because the only reason they'd have to have a difference is because the people cared about it for some reason or other).

#32 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Yes you are right about people in Crimea to have a claim for independence.But I think it took us two WorldWars to see that things like this should be resolved diplomatically on referendums.About our army yeah we don't have much, but I will say this we will fight to the end, our country was always abused by someone.Wright now there call to mobilize troops, so if this does not go away peacefully I will probably take part in this(it's in our constitution, every man that can must protect Ukraine, when there is a legitimate threat) , God I hope it doesn't come to that.

#33 Posted by TruthTellah (8720 posts) -

How has the economical situation been in Ukraine for the past few years leading up to this? Every report I've seen on this whole incident has made it sound like Ukraine is still struggling to recover from when the recession properly hit in 2008. But @tennmuerti's post seems to imply he saw it as otherwise.

No facetiousness meant by any of my questions and good luck to you my friend and your country.

Economic issues appear to be a big part of this. One of the main divisions has been over whether to take assistance from Europe or Russia to help the country during a difficult period. Originally they were to receive European help, but the government backed out when Russia convinced them that they'd offer support instead. People were upset, as many were hoping to move more toward the EU, and it was a spark that ignited the many reasons for unrest in the country. Ukraine has had a difficult and complicated time for a long time now, but in this case, many people were at least trying to make some changes. Now a military conflict has developed and it's a real mess.

#34 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@truthtellah: Yeah EU resolution had it's part in what is happening, but mostly corrupt government(and mean really fucking corrupt) plus a dictator for a president, and also poor economical state of things.

#35 Posted by TruthTellah (8720 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Yes you are right about people in Crimea to have a claim for independence.But I think it took us two WorldWars to see that things like this should be resolved diplomatically on referendums.About our army yeah we don't have much, but I will say this we will fight to the end, our country was always abused by someone.Wright now there call to mobilize troops, so if this does not go away peacefully I will probably take part in this(it's in our constitution, every man that can must protect Ukraine, when there is a legitimate threat) , God I hope it doesn't come to that.

I really hope it doesn't come to that. I can't see Russia believing an actual military conflict will be the answer. They may flex their power in Crimea, but they'd have to be nuts to escalate into a war that they would obviously win. It would be condemnable on its face. Hopefully they'll get some concessions they desire and then roll back. Let Crimea decide its political status without Russian troops all around them. You shouldn't have to go out to a battlefield for this to be resolved.

If it comes to that, please stay safe, man.

#36 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5352 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: That's tough man. I do think it is possible for Ukraine to win a war with Russia without foreign troop assistance, but it would probably take a pretty good commander to do it. My blog has received quite a lot of views from Ukraine in the past couple of weeks and in addition to games/movies I talk about random vaguely revolutionary shit and a lot of hardcore military strategy stuff so that makes me curious. I guess what I can do is write another post in the Great Captains series.

#38 Edited by EuanDewar (4873 posts) -

@truthtellah: I understand the situation itself (although I must say you do a much better job of explaining it than most others do. Professional outlets should hire you just to explain it to people). I'm just trying to get an idea for exactly how severely in the shitter Ukraine is economically.

Although I guess the fact that any of this is happening at all is a pretty good indicator of how bad the Ukraine has had it.

#39 Posted by Crembaw (353 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb How dire is the situation for your nation's military, should the worst of all possible things come about? Are their vehicles and other armaments in as much of a mess as I have been led to believe? I heard earlier today that the new chief of the Navy defected to Crimea, is there any truth to that?

I'm also going to repeat a sentiment that many of my colleagues have shared: while the news in the US has been trying very hard to portray this as the People v. Evil Russia, the situation is obviously far more complex, and even a rudimentary degree of investigation leads to confusion. Who or what exactly acts as Ukraine's governing body currently? Do they have a set plan or agenda? Do they have popular support?

Additionally, there were a flurry of rumors regarding the protests - that there was Western money involved, that CIA instigators came in to rile things up, and so on. These seemed far-fetched but I am interested in hearing from someone who was actually there whether or not the rumors hold any truth. I certainly do not mean to do any discredit to the protesters and their efforts, however.

#40 Posted by Fluttercry (188 posts) -

So, does anyone think that things are going to start popping off over there, and if they do, is the US/NATO/UN/EU just going to throw Ukraine under the bus? I certainly don't want a war, but if it came to that, I don't think the West has the stomach for fighting anymore.

#41 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@crembaw: I would say military situation is dire,but not all is lost, roughly I would say about 100000 soldiers, also others are being called up(as I said anyone between 18-60 can be being called to arms), tanks I can't say for sure,but for our first tank division , that I had a please to visit last year had about 80-90 tanks,new government does have support of majority of people, c.o.president is kind of a dickish,greedy goul,but seems like he is at least trying, also I wouldn't think too much about new government because there president election scheldued for 25 of May, and after that we might vote for new parlament,as far as CIA funding yeah I heard some stuff like that, wouldn't exclude it.

#42 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@euandewar: Thank you,you kind of have to know stuff in situations like this, also it helps to have a law degree, about economic side of things let's just say we owe a lot of money,and we have almost none to run country, EU and America were saying about it,but so far only words,no action.I would say we need probably like 14 billion to stabilize things, and then another 10 to make stuff happen and keep economics up and running again, that of course if people in high places wouldn't steal them.

#43 Edited by csl316 (8356 posts) -

Problem is the Oscars are on tonight, so many people are distracted by that. There have been headlines here and I've been keeping tabs. Problem is that the public being aware of the problem hasn't helped change anything.

It's a scary situation, and I was born in Poland so I'm worried about its forces getting ready.

I hope cooler heads prevail.

#44 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Yeah but there a lot of factors to consider, and most important of them most of Russians are our brothers,cousins,mothers and fathers.

#45 Posted by EuanDewar (4873 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: Jesus those are some rough numbers. Hope you come out of the other end of this all for the better duder.

#46 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (307 posts) -

Okay really have to go and have some sleep it's 3:24 am , I will up in about 7hours, if anyone have any question please send them.

#47 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5352 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: Oh I'm not saying that justifies the war in a global/ukranian sense, that just seems to be a political thing in Russia itself (and a frequent enough claim in other wars throughout history), defending our citizens; even if they don't actually care about Russia anymore. This is somewhat similar to the overwhelming concern shown when a random American civilian dies in a terrorist attack in another country that kills 300 people; Americans will care about the 1 American dying and totally ignore the other 299 people; or at least that's how the news media portrays it. Similarly if China wanted to occupy Taiwan the claim would be that the vast majority of the Taiwanese are members of the Han ethnic group; doesn't seem like China actually has any need to do that but if Russia is successful they might have more impetus.

#48 Posted by TruthTellah (8720 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: I think that's a salient point. It is in the international community's interest to prevent Russia from taking Crimea in this manner, because it would show other large powers that they can get away with doing the same. As you mentioned, China has regions it would like to take, and Taiwan being a prime example. They can't be under the impression that in the modern world you can simply occupy a nearby territory and keep it with no recourse. If people in Crimea really want independence or even eventual annexation to Russia, they should be able to decide that themselves and not with the Russian military surrounding their homes and local government.

Hopefully Russia can be bargained with diplomatically and will accept some beneficial concessions to return to their bases and back off of Ukrainian territory. Then Ukraine can continue to work out their internal issues without a potential war at their doorstep.

#49 Edited by i_Dead (45 posts) -

Russia is stopping the World Banking Cartel taking over Ukraine trough America. Since the World Banksters own American politics or simpler who ever is in the white house at the time

#50 Edited by TruthTellah (8720 posts) -

The Internet is a weird place at times.