#151 Edited by TruthTellah (8534 posts) -

@dudeglove said:

@truthtellah: If anyone is dismissing anything here, it's CNN. Sure, "forced Ukrainization" might not be happening now, but just because someone says they weren't affected by it and writes a nice little sentimental article for a biased news site complete with some pretty pictures thrown in doesn't mean it isn't an issue. That way of thinking is comparable to "I've never seen gays/blacks/Jews/insertminorityofchoicehere being persecuted, I can't see a problem, therefore there isn't one."

But credit where credit's due: if the average idiot manages to read past that line, you get to the meat of the issue:

Yuri in Simferopol told me that it's a handful of pro-Russian extremists in the streets trying to make a scene for Russian video cameras -- they are showing that these are the Russians who request protection!

...

I got a similar report from Luda in Kharkov. She said that a large group of Russians were brought across the border by buses, and they were the ones inspiring and instigating unrest that resulted in putting a Russian flag on a municipal building.

This is the sort of shit you should be concerned about. These are the same tactics pulled by the Americans in Kiev, they're the same tactics Northern Irish "Unionists" pulled in Belfast during last year's "flag protests" (literally busing in people from other towns and cities) and voila, a lightbulb suddenly goes off in the Kremlin's head and someone there realizes they can do the exact same thing. It's easy peasy: all you do is find unemployed people with a grudge and nothing better to do, wave some money in their face and stick them on the bus.

I'm pretty sure she wasn't dismissing that there are problems. You're acting like unless someone says the sky is falling they aren't taking things seriously enough. She acknowledges that there are divisions but that they aren't as big as Russian propaganda would like people to believe. Do you think that's not possible? That the Kremlin hasn't been trying to feed those problems and push people apart to further their ends?

No one is saying there aren't serious problems or enduring divisions. Some are simply saying that a lot of those problems are being made to seem far worse than they are to cause unrest in the country. Some people seem intent to divide and conquer Ukraine through any means necessary. You mention manipulative tactics quite a bit, and I think that certainly is a likely thing opponents of Ukrainian unity would want to see. To poke at wounds and feed festering strife. To discourage hope and any chance at resolving conflicts.

And yeah, it's unfortunate how easily media can be manipulated, even in a time of mass media. Ukrainians showed a tense video today of Russian troops shooting to keep Crimean soldiers out of a post, but the Internet also latches onto a bunch of selfies local Crimeans took with Russian soldiers hanging out around town. And only those protests that are pro-Russian seem to get out, whether in Crimea or Russia. A lot of this is absolutely a war of media narratives.

#152 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

I think you took the words right out of my mouth. I could have saved myself a couple of hours the past couple of days. Please for the love of god everyone write that on a post it note and keep it in mind every time you see a story about Ukraine:

A LOT OF THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A WAR OF MEDIA NARRATIVES.

05/03/2014 - truthtellah

#153 Posted by TruthTellah (8534 posts) -

I think you took the words right out of my mouth. I could have saved myself a couple of hours the past couple of days. Please for the love of god everyone write that on a post it note and keep it in mind every time you see a story about Ukraine:

A LOT OF THIS IS ABSOLUTELY A WAR OF MEDIA NARRATIVES.

05/03/2014 - truthtellah

Thanks, I try.

#154 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -
#155 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

Doesn't look like Russia's going to give up the Crimea barring military force, and their troops are probably the most combat ready on the planet.

#156 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

99 people have died as a result of this revolution. Russia is starting to finance some help to Crimea, and imposing economical sanctions on Ukraine.

#157 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

99 people have died as a result of this revolution. Russia is starting to finance some help to Crimea, and imposing economical sanctions on Ukraine.

And how do you respond to the revelation in a phone conversation (leaked by the SBU and posted online yesterday) between the Estonian foreign minister and the EU foreign affairs chief that the Maidan leaders purportedly hired the snipers that shot and killed both police and protesters during the violence in Kiev?

http://rt.com/news/estonia-confirm-leaked-tape-970/

#158 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

I can't believe I actually have to bump this thread; this is literally the most interesting thing to occur in 30+ years. This is world shaping shit people.

I found this article to be pretty interesting, including the following fascinating quote:

"President Xi said the situation in Ukraine is "highly complicated and sensitive," which "seems to be accidental, (but) has the elements of the inevitable."'

Yep, China is aware of the necessity of the proceedings.

#159 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@dudeglove: I had my suspisions, as I said before almost nothing is clear in this shit-show, the only thing I know for sure Ukraine cannot be separated.

#160 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

OBSE soldiers (without weapons) were blocked by russian soldiers upon entering Crimea.

Also http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?putins_fraud_are_there_russian_troops_in_ukraine_video&objectId=417834&lang=en

And EU still has not imposed any sanctions upon Russia - http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?eu_not_to_impose_sanctions_against_russia_at_the_moment&objectId=417644&lang=en

#161 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -
#162 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -
#163 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

@dudeglove: China do care about Russia (they share one of the largest borders in the world after all), China don't care about the West.

It does sound like Russia has overwhelming local popular support in Crimea so this is not only a good move strategically but tactically as well; acting with the support of the people is a virtual guarantee of success historically.

#164 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Any particular source about Russia support in Crimea?

#165 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: You could find quite a few I imagine, here's one and another. It is directly counter to the common narrative in the west to even acknowledge the possibility that the majority of people in the Crimea are supportive of joining Russia or gaining independence, so any sort of references to this mean that the feeling must be very strong. While our propaganda machine isn't nearly as efficient as the Russians it does still exist; objectivity is not a large concern for major news networks, but a fair number of them have had local on site reporters citing popular support for the vote for independence. It doesn't sound like Russia has to fix the vote at all to have it pass overwhelmingly; though I'm sure people will say it was held by the occupying force etc. Again it doesn't seem like Russia is going to budge an inch on this if all the West does is impose fairly weak sanctions; the media is also saying Putin is acting erratically and shit like that; this is absurd. This is an obviously calculated move that came at an extremely precise time for a specific reason. Putin might be crazy in 20 years or something, for now he's perfectly lucid.

For what it is worth joining a much more powerful/economically stable country and abandoning a much weaker one that doesn't have your cultural interests at heart strikes me as perfectly reasonable. Obviously the Russian military action is what makes this set a pretty big precedent; but it does sound like the Ukrainian government would not allow for any possible secession peacefully (which is a colossally stupid move).

Assuming Russian success: Within 5 years China sits on Pyongyang and gets rid of the moron in power, annexes Dennis Rodman, and advocates the unification of Korea.

#166 Edited by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: Putin might be crazy in 20 years or something, for now he's perfectly lucid.

As Bloomberg wrote the other day "he's not crazy, he's KGB".

He is a calculating former career KGB officer, who has just carried out an almost perfect operation, using hard power, covert tactics and disinformation to secure his goals. (I’ll get to the “almost” part in a moment.)

In my years of being in and out (currently in) of Russia, I can't say I've ever seen Putin being outrightly "mad" or "crazy". There was that one time he told a French journalist to essentially go and fuck themselves. The context was in light of a recent terror attack in Russia and Putin's response was something along the lines of "If any of you happen to want to take part in some jihad, I can recommend plenty of Moscow doctors who will circumcise you" (but as his tone suggests, he meant "we will chop your fucking dicks off you terrorist pieces of shit"). And last year or so he seems to be a bit off the rails in his PR campaign to dress up as a friggin bird and help a bunch of rare cranes or whatever migrate (ironically the idea was a flop and they ended up migrating back soon afterwards).

Other times he's perfectly capable of being frighteningly calm, such as back in 2007 during a German press conference (more famous for the wide-eyed guy at the end). Notice his effortless transition to German, and what he actually says as well.

Meanwhile, fuckwit John Kerry can barely speak English, whereas most Russian politicians have the courtesy to learn the fucking language of the people they're dealing with.

The only public instance of Putin seeming bonkers was, during a wander about in the public, he kissed boy on the stomach back in 2006 for no apparent reason (he later said "because he was like a kitten"). I have yet to see him take his shoes off in the UN, bang them on the table and scream "we will bury you", but I don't doubt that some savvy media organization out there hasn't yet planned to photoshop his head in such a manner.

Also, nice potatoes, John.

Diplomacy sure is a hoot.

#167 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/03/06/crimea-reactions-referendum/6116631/ this particular source do not state that this refferendum was initiated by not legitimate goverment in Crimea, last time I cheked only 12% of people in Ukraine want to join Russia.Not to say that new goverment in Kiev is totally legit but as I said before there are elections coming.After the elections I think it would be reasonable to host a refferendum and people in Crimea or other regions would decide what to do next.

#168 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: I'm not talking about Ukraine as a whole, which seems to be kind of a mess politically (granted a mess that no one would be paying attention to without the Russian intervasion (seems like a good word)); just the Crimea which by default is likely to support the Russians due to ethnicity and the relative standard of living in either country.

Here's a pretty good article, though it does have a Western bias.

#169 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Yeah and we will have to prove to them that Putin doesn't giva a fuck about them or Crimea in general.

Also this http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?fields_are_seeded_with_mines_and_pits_are_dug_for_frontier_marker_in_kherson_region&objectId=418647&lang=en

and this http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?column_of_trucks_moves_through_simferopol_headed_with_russian_traffic_police_car_photo&objectId=418623&lang=en

#170 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: I'd say it is pretty clear Putin cares quite a lot about the Crimea and for good reason, it is strategically valuable and well positioned. It is an ideal staging area for an offensive on any number of regions; even if those offensives don't happen/aren't planned for just having it is threatening/dangerous and thus improves your global clout. I'm also positive Putin cares deeply about Ethnic Russians no matter where they are, he might be more even interested in himself/the power of Russia but on the whole I can't imagine he doesn't passionately care for his people as well, this is a virtual necessity for any successful leader.

#171 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: I think you are wrong, I think he doesn't care about people in Crimea nor in Russia.About territorial stuff and strategic positions yea you are right.I cannot believe that man who so tightly and manaicaly controls Russia,cares about people.I mean you don't have to go far recent demonstrations in Moscow and Saints Peterburg, when people with sines"Peace in whole world" were taken to police station,and given 3-5 years of jail time.And I understand that there will never be more democratic Russia, because empires like that can only be controlled in that way,which brings me to another question does Russia and it's people even want or need to be that big.Also closing last real tv channels,and blocking most of websites doesn't strike me as caring about people,if he feeds them bullshit information.

#172 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

Latest update:

1.http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?patrol_aircraft__of_state_border_service_of_ukraine_was_shot_with_automatic_weapons&objectId=418653&lang=en

2.http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?crimean_tatars_demand_russian_trops_to_be_withdrawn&objectId=418662&lang=en

3.http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?today_kyiv_celebrates_200th_anniversary_of_taras_shevchenkos_birthday&objectId=418818&lang=en

#173 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: One doesn't have to believe in democracy to care about his people; one could even say that democracy leads to manipulation and cynicism on the part of politicians (and it certainly leads to that on the part of the voters). Also it's not like the present Ukrainian government was democratically elected anyway. Control of dissent/propaganda are the hallmarks of a successful dictatorial regime; China is probably the best at both of these and it's no coincidence that they're the most successful country over the past decade or so. Does it mean that it's "just" that Putin remains in power? Probably not, but popular opinion is not much of a concern relative to the efficiency of the leadership; especially when they make the most prudent move in dozens of years. I think you'd have to go back to Otto Von Bismarck to find a comparable maneuver.

#174 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Yep,it's all true, and I never said that new goverment was officially ellected,as I said before there will be two elections in next 6 months.

On a side note there are aproximately 18000 russian troops in Crimea,yesterday there were reports about specnaz mining some fields.

Referendum in Crimea shechuled for 16 of march.There are only two options either Crimea joins Russia,or they return to the 1992 constitution of Crimea(which basically means Crimea will become independant country,and will decide what power it will give to Ukraine) fuck me.

#175 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: I still feel for you man, it's certainly frightening for your country but I feel it will ultimately lead to some improvements in global diplomacy/bargaining and a shift away from strictly merchant-class power (which is inherently exploitative).

#176 Edited by slyspider (1153 posts) -

First and foremost duder, stay safe

#177 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: No it won't, refferendum is busted I can tell you results right now,they are gonna vote yes,russian goverment will say yes,and than they will invade for real,and all this unknown troops will suddenly became russian,and sadly I will go to war.And our country do not have war economy,as a amatter of fact we have almost no economy,sorry if I sound so down,but as times go I realise that nobody gonna help us,and American and EU troops will not fight for us,and sactions about Russia well let's just safely assume Putin doesn't give a fuck about those.

#178 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@slyspider: I will try my best, but I don't think that will be enough.

#179 Posted by Aetheldod (3511 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: Why would you go to war? Arent the people of Crimea sayin "we dont want to be of Ukraine" , or has the Ukraine gebernment said that they will try to not let go of Crimea ?

Hope Im not coming out as a douche or anything , just that war seems like the worst thing for Ukraine at the moment

#180 Posted by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

@aetheldod: (Hot) War is unlikely but it would definitely have to come because of Ukraine being aggressive; they'd have to have an exceptional commander and probably a few months training at least to do it successfully though; so I doubt it. If Russia gets Crimea for (essentially) free they're unlikely to do anything in the immediate future in Ukraine; despite interest in Odessa.

#181 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@aetheldod: Because I doubt new goverment will give up Crimea, and I will be fighting russian troops not crimean people,as why I have to go it's stated in our constitution that every man between 18-55 have to protect Ukraine in a few specific cases,such as interventions from another country,oh and also I am officer of reserve do not know how to say it right in english.Most of forward thinking people in Crimea DO NOT want to separate,they just want more power for their goverment and their people,also nobody wants to go to war I mean really nobody.

#182 Posted by Aetheldod (3511 posts) -
#183 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -
#184 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

and American and EU troops will not fight for us,and sactions about Russia well let's just safely assume Putin doesn't give a fuck about those.

Not to distract from the seriousness of what's happening "on the ground" in Ukraine, but it's quite possible a lot of this could have been avoided had the West given a fuck about Russia in the first place. Mark MacKinnon wrote quite the article the other day for the globe and mail.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/how-the-west-lost-putin-it-didnt-have-to-be-this-way/article17384414/?page=1

In it he points out the stark contrast in Western policy towards Russia pre- and post-Cold War. And it's very telling too in that there's very much a deficit of academics providing insight into Western foreign policy towards Russia, especially when supposedly reasonable political figures throw out childish schoolyard "Vlad is Mad" jabs at Putin.

Also for those stateside that don't know, America did itself absolutely no goddamn favors (or maybe they really did do it on purpose to specifically be insulting to the Kremlin) by having that boob Michael McFaul as its ambassador to Russia. The man is a colossal embarrassment, who - aside from getting into twitter slap fights with Russia Today Editor in Chief Margarita Simonyan among other things - never even took the time to learn the Russian language properly in all his years supposedly as an academic, (and now he's a goddamn professor at Stanford). If you ever see his idiotic smug face appearing on your screens, bear in mind that one of the first inflammatory things he did when he came to Moscow was officially invite members of the opposition to a meet n'greet at the US embassy. He is not an intellectual powerhouse, and at least Obama had enough sense to recall him from his Moscow post before he could cause complete destruction.

TL;DR? Ignoring your "enemies" after you "beat" them is a bad move, and then proceeding to disrespect them while they're down is even worse. I mean, good lord, had either Russia or the States been trained in the same dark administrative arts as the British Empire, either of them could be completely dominating the world. But they don't.

#185 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@dudeglove: Yeah he doesn't sound much like a good specialist, also I never understood ambassadors who can't really speak the language.On the side note a lot of shit started popping in Luhansk,and there are more and more reports that our former president is dead,but I think he is still alive,but the second he becomes useless for Putin he will be executed.

#186 Edited by bill_kerans (12 posts) -

@dudeglove: I'll to my bit to distract from the seriousness then:

#187 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

@dudeglove: Yeah he doesn't sound much like a good specialist, also I never understood ambassadors who can't really speak the language.On the side note a lot of shit started popping in Luhansk,and there are more and more reports that our former president is dead,but I think he is still alive,but the second he becomes useless for Putin he will be executed.

I'm pretty sure Yanukovych became useless to the Kremlin (not that he was all that useful to begin with considering his back n' forth between Moscow and the EU) the moment he left Kiev. I can't exactly see why he would be "executed", unless he were somehow thrown to some of the ultranationalist wolves currently attempting to run the capital, or what that would even achieve.

#188 Edited by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

@bill_kerans said:

@dudeglove: I'll to my bit to distract from the seriousness then:

I highly doubt the veracity of any photo or carefully shot piece of media, particularly one coming from a twitter account named "Euromaidan PR". About the only piece of information I can gleam from that is the "pikabu.ru" water mark on the photo, which is one of Russia's many answers to reddit/9gag-esque garbage clickbait sites (wait why is a supposedly anti-Russian movement taking pictures from a Russian site?). So yeah, I'm sure it's bound to be completely accurate and not a set up shot or still from some obscure film no one's heard of at all.

If we want to be serious, assuming it's "real" for all we know that picture might not be recent in the slightest, considering the soldier seems to be carrying something similar to a single shot M80 (I'm not an expert on small arms, sorry edit: apparently it's closer to an RPG-26), and the fact that someone is currently down two geese, so it doesn't narrow it down. I can't actually tell if the guy belongs to any particular army, even though I've seen plenty of Russian soldiers, but even without any identifying insignia the gear looks appropriately post-sov shitty, but the crappy pair of rubber boots he's wearing are throwing me off.

#189 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

Latest update:

1.Our goverment again officially requested military and economical help from countries who sighned 1994 Budapest memorandum.

2.There was a pressconferrence with our former president today in Russia - what a fucking idiot he is

3.There are aproximately 20000 russian troops in Crimea.

4.Goverment in Russia started adopting laws, to this mascarade.

On a side note, read a good headline today:"People in Crimea will not talk russian after joining,they will be silent in russian"

#190 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

YANUKOVYCH said the he IS GOING TO APPEAL TO THE US CONGRESS AND THE US SUPREME COURT - how dumb does he think american goverment is,fucking idiota, for those who don't know this fucker gave another pressconfference in russia,in which he said that he will appeal to us goverment,and also he said that he will return to Ukraine.Oh and that american goverment couldn't give money to this new goverment terrorists,what a fucking joke he is.

#191 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: I'm not sure how he's going to pull that off considering in that video he just called those in the West supporters of the fascists and neo-Nazis (even though he's sort of right). Good luck to him trying to return to Kiev in May.

What about that Kharkov mayor, eh?

#192 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@dudeglove: About what you said yesterday that Putin had no interest in Yanukovych I think you are wrong because he wouldn't let him in Russia in the first place,and Yanukovych never done anything by himself he was always a russian puppet,about Kerns let's just say he is a fucker big time,but this time it looks like it's a personal feud,he should be in prison but for other reasons.

#193 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

@dudeglove: About what you said yesterday that Putin had no interest in Yanukovych I think you are wrong because he wouldn't let him in Russia in the first place,and Yanukovych never done anything by himself he was always a russian puppet,about Kerns let's just say he is a fucker big time,but this time it looks like it's a personal feud,he should be in prison but for other reasons.

Outside of Italy, off the top of my head I can't think of another country whose politicians are as flat out nuts as yours. Has there literally been a politician with any semblance of honesty in your country in the past 20 years?

#194 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@dudeglove: To tell you the truth I can only think of one :Viacheslav Chornovil, I am sure there are maybe few others,but yeah almost all of them are corrupted so much and so hard.Oh Klichko Vitalij former WBC champion,but he is really not suited to be a president or even a good politician,he means well,but there a lot of shitty advisors in his party and he doesn't really know what to do by himself.

#195 Posted by dudeglove (7686 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: the fuck is going on in Kharkiv? I'm hearing reports of 14 dead.

#196 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@dudeglove: 2 dead 5 injured, don't have a lot of information now, but seems like a planned setup.

#197 Edited by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

exitpolls in Crimea says 93% of people in Crimea supported joining with Russia,tomorrow is gonna be busted,also not like anyone where thinking otherwise

#198 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5338 posts) -

Well it does kind of look like Putin is going for it; and still no one in the US is talking about it at all. I don't think it's a smart move unless he has contingencies that aren't apparent as of yet (entirely possible); but even in the absence of those contingencies it could work; such is the total disinterest in any war from the West/NATO.

#199 Posted by SnakeVSGiantBomb (287 posts) -

@fredchuckdave: Yeah, we sighned political part of assosiation with EU, but it doesn't mean shit so far.Also a little fan fact dude is now a official candidat to run for president of Ukraine.I always loved Star Wars.

#200 Posted by Aetheldod (3511 posts) -

@snakevsgiantbomb: I would be weary for voting on him .... heard he wishes to dominate the galaxy with his son D:

Joking aside , I hope you are all ok duder.