How can music be "pretentious"?

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Bulldog19892

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#1  Edited By Bulldog19892

I have never understood the use of this word in conjunction with music. From what I understand, it's making a song seem more grandiose, or epic, or important than it really needs to be. But how much does it "need" to be? What defines what a song needs and what it doesn't?

I've heard people use the word pretentious when talking about someone playing guitar. Huh? How exactly can musical notes form a sense of false importance? Can anyone explain this to me?

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#2  Edited By Megalon

It's more about the person playing the music than the music itself, in my opinion. Whether we acknowledge it or not, the presentation of the music and the musician does affect our perception of the music itself.

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#3  Edited By Bulldog19892
Megalon said:
"It's more about the person playing the music than the music itself, in my opinion. Whether we acknowledge it or not, the presentation of the music and the musician does affect our perception of the music itself."
So it applies more so to musicians than the music? Like take this for example: I think Green Day and U2 are pretentious because they make music about how we need to change the world and how the U.S. government is terrible and corrupt, but they do not present any solution or do anything real to fix it themselves. They believe they can use their "immense" popularity to change the world.

However, I do not believe that The Mars Volta are pretentious simply because they make grandiose music and are very improvisational.

Is this a correct assessment?
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#4  Edited By h8smikemoore

if someone is playing music just to fit in, the music suffers and usually sounds pretentious

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#5  Edited By Bulldog19892
h8smikemoore said:
"if someone is playing music just to fit in, the music suffers and usually sounds pretentious"
"just to fit in"? What does that even mean? Like "fit in" to a certain genre or what?
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#6  Edited By h8smikemoore

usually.

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#7  Edited By Megalon
Bulldog19892 said:
"Megalon said:
"It's more about the person playing the music than the music itself, in my opinion. Whether we acknowledge it or not, the presentation of the music and the musician does affect our perception of the music itself."
So it applies more so to musicians than the music? Like take this for example: I think Green Day and U2 are pretentious because they make music about how we need to change the world and how the U.S. government is terrible and corrupt, but they do not present any solution or do anything real to fix it themselves. They believe they can use their "immense" popularity to change the world.

However, I do not believe that The Mars Volta are pretentious simply because they make grandiose music and are very improvisational.

Is this a correct assessment?"
Dude, when I read the title of the thread initially I almost just typed: "U2". That's funny as hell, I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees that. I remember an old George Harrison interview where he totally called out Bono as being a pretentious dude, and it totally made my day.

That being said, I think Bono (I'm not sure about Green Day or the rest of U2 actually does do a lot for the world, rather than just singing about it. I just wish he would do it without those stupid fucking purple glasses, because I think it's pathetic to dress like a rock star while hanging around kids with AIDS or something, just because he knows there will be cameras there. To me, that is what makes him and all of his music pretentious, and I just can't get past it.

I'm not familiar with the Mars Volta beyond the fact that the dude has a crazy voice, but I think I would agree with you in that I'd have a hard time calling them pretentious unless there was something about them that colored the music that way for me.
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#8  Edited By StaticFalconar
Megalon said:
"It's more about the person playing the music than the music itself, in my opinion. Whether we acknowledge it or not, the presentation of the music and the musician does affect our perception of the music itself."
I agree, if someone writes an original song with all the epic chords and solos (but its original), and the work is billed as original as no one has ever heard of this before. But if someone just basically just rips certain parts of the song, have similar but different chords and such, but claims it as their own, then it starts to be pretentious.

The thing is, its only pretentious if you bill yourself as serious as opposed to a tribute or parody of some kind.

Now this song could be pretentious if they didn't say they where doing a tribute, and being overly comedic about it in almost a parody way.
I don't listen to actual pretentious songs so an opposite example is the best I can do.

  

































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Edit:
Megalon said:

That being said, I think Bono (I'm not sure about Green Day or the rest of U2 actually does do a lot for the world, rather than just singing about it. I just wish he would do it without those stupid fucking purple glasses, because I think it's pathetic to dress like a rock star while hanging around kids with AIDS or something, just because he knows there will be cameras there. To me, that is what makes him and all of his music pretentious, and I just can't get past it.



Well, Bono does actually do something about it, and the rock star get up is only worn during the rock concerts. I doubt he wears that when he's in Afica trying to pick a spot to build a school. btw even if he does, it shouldn't make him pretentious as opposed to someone that does the same but dresses differently (The difference is he actually does do something about it as oppose to only talking about it).

Websters definition - 1: characterized by pretension: asa: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) <the pretentious fraud who assumes a love of culture that is alien to him — Richard Watts>b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature <pretentious language><pretentious houses>

With that definition in mind, the song comes to mind is Gwen Stefani's
"Harajuku Girls", since one trip to Japan and this ultra white girl thinks she's down with all J-pop culture. What's worse is that "Harajuku Girls" was a total fad, but Bono's saving the third world, he's been doing for a while and I don't see him stopping.




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#9  Edited By KiddSushi

I think it depends on the person listening. Some people would say Pink Floyd and Radiohead are pretentious, whereas I look at musicians like Lifehouse and Nickelback as pretentious.

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#10  Edited By Bulldog19892

So pretension is subjective? If that's true then how can pretension even exist at all? If it all depends on who's looking at it, then nothing, and everything is pretentious, much like right or wrong, or good or bad, right?

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#11  Edited By get2sammyb

For me - Radiohead are so pretentious it's untrue. Because you totally know when you listen to their record that they chose the sounds not because they thought it was for the good of the music but because they knew their fanbase of phony knob-wits would lap up the stupid time signatures and "playing the radiator".

I'm all for creativity and varied sounds, but I actually like to hear a melody first. Radiohead are phonies wet dream. They can go around pronouncing the "genius" until kingdom come but... well to my ears, it's wank.

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It's hard to call the music itself pretentious.  I think the musicians are the ones who are pretentious, where as the music can be portentous.  The latter is more like having the shadow or framework of significance, but not following through with the metaphysical or thematic explorations. 

When I think of portentous music, a band like Death Cab for Cutie springs to mind.  The band's lyrics often have clever metaphors, but they have little else in the way of thematic explorations, and it's not inaccurate to say the band beats the listener over the head with the aforesaid metaphors.  Ultimately, nothing further comes of the repetition.  It's just a dead-end.  It's like they're saying "look what we did once, isn't it self-evidently great?"  I would also classify the musicians who compose that particular band as "pretentious," since they often bill themselves as the musical equivalent of Jack Kerouac (as stated in an issue of Filter magazine some months back). 

Music is difficult, though, because there is a lot of role-playing, as it were, on the part of the listener, and certain musical cues can trigger different intellectual reactions in different people.  Something like Nickelback may just as well strike a chord with a person in the same way a band like Sigur Ros or Radiohead strikes the same chord with me.  It's probably the most strangely subjective of the major arts.  There are objectivities about it, to be sure, but there is an equal amount of opinion.

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#13  Edited By Bulldog19892
get2sammyb said:
"For me - Radiohead are so pretentious it's untrue. Because you totally know when you listen to their record that they chose the sounds not because they thought it was for the good of the music but because they knew their fanbase of phony knob-wits would lap up the stupid time signatures and "playing the radiator".

I'm all for creativity and varied sounds, but I actually like to hear a melody first. Radiohead are phonies wet dream. They can go around pronouncing the "genius" until kingdom come but... well to my ears, it's wank."
This person furthers my point. I think Radiohead are absolutely fantastic. It seems that pretension falls into the simple 'music is subjective' truth.
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#14  Edited By get2sammyb
Bulldog19892 said:
"get2sammyb said:
"For me - Radiohead are so pretentious it's untrue. Because you totally know when you listen to their record that they chose the sounds not because they thought it was for the good of the music but because they knew their fanbase of phony knob-wits would lap up the stupid time signatures and "playing the radiator".

I'm all for creativity and varied sounds, but I actually like to hear a melody first. Radiohead are phonies wet dream. They can go around pronouncing the "genius" until kingdom come but... well to my ears, it's wank."
This person furthers my point. I think Radiohead are absolutely fantastic. It seems that pretension falls into the simple 'music is subjective' truth."
I like Sigur Ros and Imogen Heap, which I suppose could both be considered pretentious aswell.

I guess what I hate most about Radiohead is not the band itself but the way the fanbase only seem to like the music because they are The Guardian's darling and apparently listening to Radiohead makes you a more intellectual individual than someone who listens to Stevie Wonder.

"Sure Stevie Wonder is a great musician but... that's all in 4/4," they'll scoff, "He should have diminished into the lower 5th...." etc. Of course they haven't the foggiest what they're talking about any more than I have but because The Guardian said it, it must be true right?

"Besides disco sucks."

Isn't it ironic how Radiohead's biggest song is actually pretty straightforward?

Paranoid Android clearly tries SOOO hard to take the listener to "another place" - and I'm sure if that's what The Guardian tells you about the track then it must do.

Personally I like a bit more honesty in my music. Britney Spears might not have written a single bar, word or note of her records but it will always resonate with a greater number of people because it is what it is. It's good honest pop music.

So to concede, maybe it is the audience itself that are the pretentious ones.

EDIT: Quote Wikipedia on "Creep":

"When the song shifts from the verse to the chorus, Jonny Greenwood plays three blasts of guitar noise ("dead notes" played by releasing fret-hand pressure and picking the strings). Greenwood said he did this because he did not like how quiet the song was; he explained, "So I hit the guitar hard - really hard". Ed O'Brien said, "That's the sound of Jonny trying to fuck the song up. He really didn't like it the first time we played it, so he tried spoiling it. And it made the song."

According to Yorke, "Creep" tells the tale of an inebriated man who tries to get the attention of a woman he is attracted to by following her around. In the end, he lacks the self-confidence to face her and feels he subconsciously is her."

My there's a hidden meaning to everything isn't there. *rolls eyes*
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get2sammyb said:
So to concede, maybe it is the audience itself that are the pretentious ones."
How true this is.
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#16  Edited By get2sammyb
Sir_Ragnarok said:
"get2sammyb said:
So to concede, maybe it is the audience itself that are the pretentious ones."
How true this is."
Nah man, The Guardian said it wasn't so. Can't be true.
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#17  Edited By Megalon
Sir_Ragnarok said:
"get2sammyb said:
So to concede, maybe it is the audience itself that are the pretentious ones."
How true this is."
Dude, totally. Look no farther than the Rock Band forums to see this. Someone will say "oh, I like this band" and then someone else will say "oh, they suck and so do you and your mom and your dog". It's not as bad on this site, but on sites like gamespot the pretentious ones really show their colors.
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#18  Edited By KiddSushi

get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.

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#19  Edited By Bulldog19892
get2sammyb said:
"Sir_Ragnarok said:
"get2sammyb said:
So to concede, maybe it is the audience itself that are the pretentious ones."
How true this is."
Nah man, The Guardian said it wasn't so. Can't be true."
I'm assuming 'The Guardian' is some kind of publication?
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#20  Edited By Megalon
KiddSushi said:
"I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it."
Ultimately, this is why everyone should be listening to the music they do. And I think overall, they do. Some of them just act too cool for school about it.

Now if you'll excuse me, Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass beckons.
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KiddSushi said:
"get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.
"
No, no.  That's the whole crux of his subjectivity claim.  It's totally cool if you like Radiohead.  I think the point is to emphasize that people often like certain musicians for the wrong reasons. 

Take the hate against Linkin Park, for instance.  If you like them, so be it.  If there are identifiable, logical reasons why you like them, and the source of your interest for the band stems not from a following of "authoritative" voices in the music press but from your own culled tastes, then there's no arguing against it.
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#22  Edited By get2sammyb
KiddSushi said:
"get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.
"
I agree with your last sentiment. That's what everyone should do. Sadly the world doesn't work like that does it?

"According to Yorke, "Creep" tells the tale of an inebriated man who tries to get the attention of a woman he is attracted to by following her around. In the end, he lacks the self-confidence to face her and feels he subconsciously is her."

If that's not pretentious then I don't understand the word because, I'm sorry, but that's Catcher In The Rye cynicism exaggerated right there. Gah, it's like a Media Studies graduate commented on it or something.

Bulldog19892 said:
"get2sammyb said:
"Sir_Ragnarok said:
"get2sammyb said:
So to concede, maybe it is the audience itself that are the pretentious ones."
How true this is."
Nah man, The Guardian said it wasn't so. Can't be true."
I'm assuming 'The Guardian' is some kind of publication?"
It's a British broadsheet, yes. It's so deep.
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#23  Edited By Bulldog19892
KiddSushi said:
"get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.
"
Exactly. I hate it when people generalize fans of... well, anything. I've heard people call someone a dumbass for liking Gears of War, because it doesn't have a deep, intelligent story. "If you like something that shallow then your intelligence must be so low as to not be able to tell the difference! It's so obvious! Har har *scoff* *scoff*!" Seriously, it's like assuming someone loves black coffee simply because they listen to The Killers.
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Bulldog19892 said:
"KiddSushi said:
"get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.
"
Exactly. I hate it when people generalize fans of... well, anything. I've heard people call someone a dumbass for liking Gears of War, because it doesn't have a deep, intelligent story. "If you like something that shallow then your intelligence must be so low as to not be able to tell the difference! It's so obvious! Har har *scoff* *scoff*!" Seriously, it's like assuming someone loves black coffee simply because they listen to The Killers."
I believe very strongly in the existence of "Brain Candy"--pulp science-fiction novels, or bombastic action films (or action video games)--and so these sorts of claims, the claims that one's stray choice of entertainment is directly correlative to one's intelligence, are pretty grating.  
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#25  Edited By get2sammyb
Bulldog19892 said:
"KiddSushi said:
"get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.
"
Exactly. I hate it when people generalize fans of... well, anything. I've heard people call someone a dumbass for liking Gears of War, because it doesn't have a deep, intelligent story. "If you like something that shallow then your intelligence must be so low as to not be able to tell the difference! It's so obvious! Har har *scoff* *scoff*!" Seriously, it's like assuming someone loves black coffee simply because they listen to The Killers."
... But it works both ways doesn't it, as you just totally pointed out.

I'm not saying all the people that listen to Radiohead listen to it for the sake of elitism; what I do think is that a great majority of Radiohead's fanbase is based on "but dude, you should totally read this article about the way In Rainbows varying time signatures represent the sequence of pi to the  674th significant figure. It's fascinating."

If you like Radiohead because you enjoy the tunes, then power to you people! No one, not me, nor anyone else should tell others what to like. That's kinda my whole point.
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#26  Edited By Bulldog19892
get2sammyb said:
"Bulldog19892 said:
"KiddSushi said:
"get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.
"
Exactly. I hate it when people generalize fans of... well, anything. I've heard people call someone a dumbass for liking Gears of War, because it doesn't have a deep, intelligent story. "If you like something that shallow then your intelligence must be so low as to not be able to tell the difference! It's so obvious! Har har *scoff* *scoff*!" Seriously, it's like assuming someone loves black coffee simply because they listen to The Killers."
... But it works both ways doesn't it, as you just totally pointed out.

I'm not saying all the people that listen to Radiohead listen to it for the sake of elitism; what I do think is that a great majority of Radiohead's fanbase is based on "but dude, you should totally read this article about the way In Rainbows varying time signatures represent the sequence of pi to the  674th significant figure. It's fascinating."

If you like Radiohead because you enjoy the tunes, then power to you people! No one, not me, nor anyone else should tell others what to like. That's kinda my whole point."
Maybe so, but you certainly counteract your own point when you generalize an entire fanbase like this.
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#27  Edited By get2sammyb
Bulldog19892 said:
"get2sammyb said:
"Bulldog19892 said:
"KiddSushi said:
"get2sammyb,

You're totally generalizing. There are a lot of people who like Radiohead because they think it will make them look smarter, but there are enough people (like me) who just think they make great music. You're hating on the band because of shallow fans, which I admit I used to do (with a lot of musicians), but I don't think you should let that dictate what you like. I know I'm going to be looked at as a pretentious snob for liking Radiohead, but I just don't care. I enjoy the music and it makes me feel good, so fuck it.
"
Exactly. I hate it when people generalize fans of... well, anything. I've heard people call someone a dumbass for liking Gears of War, because it doesn't have a deep, intelligent story. "If you like something that shallow then your intelligence must be so low as to not be able to tell the difference! It's so obvious! Har har *scoff* *scoff*!" Seriously, it's like assuming someone loves black coffee simply because they listen to The Killers."
... But it works both ways doesn't it, as you just totally pointed out.

I'm not saying all the people that listen to Radiohead listen to it for the sake of elitism;what I do think is that a great majority of Radiohead's fanbase is based on "but dude, you should totally read this article about the way In Rainbows varying time signatures represent the sequence of pi to the  674th significant figure. It's fascinating."

If you like Radiohead because you enjoy the tunes, then power to you people! No one, not me, nor anyone else should tell others what to like. That's kinda my whole point."
Maybe so, but you certainly counteract your own point when you generalize an entire fanbase like this."
But that's because that's what I think. I don't doubt there are a ton of people out there that are into Radiohead for the tunes but it's my opinion that there are a great deal of Radiohead fans out there who are into Radiohead for the sense of intellect security.

Maybe I am generalizing but I'm not exactly telling anyone to not listen to Radiohead am I?

Like I said, people should listen to what they like, regardless of what other people think. That includes you, me, The Guardian and the next door neighbour. See what I'm getting at?

EDIT: And I didn't generalise an "entire fanbase". I've made the bits from the quote "slanty" for you to mull over.