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#1 Edited by barfqueen (41 posts) -

All of us are duders, but most of you are men - and it's that straight male perspective I need now more than ever.

I'm a college aged lady and my (sort of) boyfriend is a college aged dude. We've only been dating for 6 months but this is both our first long-term relationship. I thought things were sailing smoothly until a few days ago when this boy I've been seeing got drunk and informed me he wanted to break up. Not NOW though. In a few months, when he's graduated.

(Note that this took place in bed together, at a beach house, on the first night of our vacation together and I had no way to transport myself home.)

I put it off as him being a drunken idiot. So when he was sober the next day I brought it up again and he tried to explain that he didn't want to marry me (I never brought up marriage) because I want "lots of babies" (I do not). He says that he wants us to go our separate ways but wants us to be friends. This all felt to me like he was planning out my life and our relationship without caring for my input or feelings. It seemed incredibly immature to set a date for a break-up at his convenience all while claiming to love me. He apologized for making me feel this way, immediately tried to have sex with me, and needless to say I felt miserable and ended up crying in the toilet for an hour.

It's been days now and I've looked for advice from all over, but most of my friends are women or gay or super-biased. I've come to think it might be best that I break things off now, as he clearly has an end in mind and further attachment might just make this even harder for me, but I still really adore this dude. Any outsider perspectives on what I should do? What he might be thinking? On why boys are so dumb?

EDIT: Thanks for all great answers and support y'all! I've decided it would probably be for the best if we break it up and don't see each other for awhile. I still really care for this man and this hurts, but hopefully with time we can at least be friends again.

EDIT 2: I broke it off and it was more or less the fucking worst. Now what the hell do I do with our shared Steam libraries?

#2 Posted by DeadPanJazMan (64 posts) -

Yeah, his plan sounds kinda dumb, if he plans to break up at all then there's no point in putting it off . IMO I would say just call it quits now and then go play video games instead of dealing with all that bullplop drama.

#3 Posted by HeyGuys (344 posts) -

I don't want to offend you but I think that guy kind of sucks, you're probably better off moving on at this point.

#4 Posted by Erock (34 posts) -

Break up with him because he's an asshole. He's planning an out, so give him one with a boot in the ass. He wants to insure sex until college is over because he thinks after college it'll be babe-city in the real world and he doesn't want to be trapped by his school girlfriend. Unless you want to insure sex until the end of college, too, then have at it.

#5 Edited by Klei (1768 posts) -

First off, boys aren't all that dumb. I know my fair share of idiotic women, and I don't label you guys for it. Needless to say, I think you guys are definitely not meant to be together. Since you mention this is your '' first long-term relationship '' ( and consider 6 months to be long-term, which isn't, in reality ), I understand how hurt you may feel. Still, you've got a clear picture of the individual you're dating, and in a way, you should be grateful that you discovered that within 6 months, and not 6 years.

What can I say? I'm not going to be all like '' break up, you fool! '' because that is not as easy as some might think. I'm just going to advice you to take this relationship on a less meaningful level, and get to move away slowly. Because hey, you made it clear that this isn't what you want from this relationship. One day, when the time is right, you'll have the guts to do it.

Also, don't murder the dude for this. And in all seriousness, even hurt as you are, he as the ''right'' to not want a future with you. It sucks, but that's the truth.

#6 Posted by RollingZeppelin (1916 posts) -

@barfqueen: He sounds like an immature man-child. He should be talking to you instead of letting his imagination run wild about how you want the relationship to progress. I would say dump him, he doesn't sound like he's ready for a serious relationship yet.

#7 Posted by Flacracker (1600 posts) -

It sounds like he just realizes that you both are in college and when you get out you both need to go do your own things. That means moving away to find jobs in your fields. The reason he wants to stay together right now is for the ass.

#8 Edited by Zeik (2232 posts) -

I'm no relationship guru, but if he intends to break up with you after graduation and you are not okay with that then you probably have the right idea with breaking up with him now. It's either that or you come to terms with it just being a college fling and ride it out until it ends. It sounds he's made up his mind about not sticking around for the long term, so trying to convince him otherwise probably won't work out in the long run.

But again, what the fuck do I know about relationships? For all I know you should do the exact opposite.

#9 Edited by bigjeffrey (4805 posts) -

Dump em

#10 Posted by SuperCycle (332 posts) -

Well if you still adore the guy who has basically told you that you are nothing more than a pitstop until something better comes along I say go all in. Tell him you'll love him forever and that you'll wait for him until the day you die. Then get his name tattooed on your forehead. Tell him your already pregnant, and that it's meant to be forever. Really lay into the crazy and become a complete doormat. Basically he's told you what he expects from the relationship. It's now up to you to decide if that's something your willing to accept.

#11 Posted by pompouspizza (291 posts) -

@barfqueen: He sounds very immature, I find it very hard to believe that he loves you and it sounds like he is just using you. I apologise if that sounds harsh. My advice would be to end it now because you deserve someone who will treat you with respect.

#12 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5260 posts) -

He sounds super selfish to me. He's already stated he plans to end the relationship, so even if it's not immediately it's still gonna happen. I think you already know what needs to be done. I understand it can be hard, but you'll thank yourself down the road when you find someone waaayyyy more awesome and considerate.

#13 Posted by Cogzwell (228 posts) -

It's not unreasonable to view school or college relationships as something that doesn't extend into later life but it is sort of a jerk move to bring it up.

Also him labeling you as "wanting children" without actually asking you how you actually feel about it first is even less considerate and deffinitely him attributing gender roles.

Unfortunately I'm not straight and I don't identify with being male so maybe my advice is coming from the wrong place.

#14 Posted by barfqueen (41 posts) -

@cogzwell: Basically I told him I liked kids and smiled at children in public sometimes? BABY CRAZY.

#15 Edited by ArbitraryWater (11487 posts) -

Touch her shoulder. No, wait. Dump him.

#16 Edited by ripelivejam (3570 posts) -

not to make light of the situation, but kudos for cutting to the chase and posting the proper image right away.

but yeah, coming from an immature ass he sounds like an immature ass. and if you are any more emotionally invested than he is i'd say dump him yourself right away.

#17 Posted by joshwent (2136 posts) -

I've come to think it might be best that I break things off now, as he clearly has an end in mind and further attachment might just make this even harder for me, but I still really adore this dude.

It might help if you mention some reasons why you actually like him. Have you been with him for a long time? Is what you described above completely non-typical behavior and he's usually really considerate and loving? Is he great at oral sex?

If I wanted to give this dude the biggest benefit of doubt possible, I'd say that maybe he's simply apprehensive about life post college and all the unknowns attached to that and it's manifesting as him wanting to cut all personal ties, even if he doesn't necessarily actually want to. But what it really sounds like, as horrible as it might be, is that he's probably wanted to break up for a while and only had the balls to bring it up when he was piss assed drunk.

There is no "straight guy secret" to explain what you say he did. Really just sounds like a straight-up dick, no matter his gender and orientation.

#18 Edited by BaconGames (3297 posts) -

Ironically this is where my MBMBAM experience could be paying off. I think the underlying motivation may have started out as fair, that the end of college is make or break in terms of commitment and so felt certain on one. However it seems like everything surrounding it has been completely botched. First that he decided on it without mentioning his struggling feelings about it first is a mistake (clearly given your feelings), second that he sprung it on you at an awkward time (not as big but still sucks), and lastly that he assumes you can continue on as if nothing happening all while he himself having set the breakup in stone. All those to varying degrees are mismanaged communication and unfair which I emphasize because you have every right to say I have my say too and I want out. If you feel deflated and detached then I don't see anything wrong with being honest about that and asking very nicely for him to not be a part of your life anymore.

I think it's admirable to seek further advice, especially from such an esteemed romance hotline service as Giant Bomb, but I don't think you've been steered wrong by your not self-identified straight male cohort.

As for why boys are dumb is actually not generally enough. As it happens communication and interacting with other people is really hard and easy to fuck up, and when you have issues like emotions, assumptions, life course directions, and sex involved, it's any wonder people manage to line all those things up enough to make it work. So to that end the underlying problem is that a lot of people are fucking amateur hour at both this relationship thing and this being human thing. In some ways it's universal to the way we are and yet that's precisely what fuels the tendency evaluate the performance of others. So to that end you're just getting the full brunt of the boy side right now because you've been dealt this shit sandwich from that side of the fence (Gosh what a mixed metaphor).

(Sidenote: Also I'm just going to throw this out there that more women who are registered fans of the site should post more. Not that we've done much to expect it but I still think that it's unfortunate how white-male washed forum communication can get despite the diversity that definitely exists among fans and at least some degree forum goers on GB. Seeing you only have 20 posts is reasonable and understandable at multiple levels but I just think it would be nice to encourage more of a presence from women on the forums. That's all, and as some have said I could also be talking completely out of my ass and I pre-emptively apologize).

EDIT: I didn't see adjustment to the image until now. Nice work! Always great to see that thing again.

#19 Posted by csl316 (8155 posts) -

Guy doesn't seem worth it, and he seems pretty immature.

You don't have to put up with him.

#20 Posted by Video_Game_King (36062 posts) -

You see that knife? The one you're holding in your hand? Put it down. Just.....just put it down.

#21 Posted by aurahack (2264 posts) -

Is this like, the first time he's ever been some kind of grossly inconsiderate about your feelings or desires in the relationship? 'Cause if this was some kinda situation where you were writing off the small things, it's only going to get worse. I dislike telling people to end something they have some form of investment in but... you probably aren't going to get much else out of that by sticking around.

#22 Posted by SuperCycle (332 posts) -

Yeah but is this guy really immature? He has told her exactly what he wants from the relationship. There are no games whatsoever in his conversation. He want to keep sleeping with her and then when it becomes convenient for him he wants to break up with her. I kind of respect that. Not him being a complete asshat about it, but the complete no games approach. I mean look it's kind of stunned the op. She's been told this and she still has to think about whether to break up with him or not. It's Ballsy.

#23 Edited by barfqueen (41 posts) -

@joshwent said:

@barfqueen said:

I've come to think it might be best that I break things off now, as he clearly has an end in mind and further attachment might just make this even harder for me, but I still really adore this dude.

It might help if you mention some reasons why you actually like him. Have you been with him for a long time? Is what you described above completely non-typical behavior and he's usually really considerate and loving? Is he great at oral sex?

He's very smart, funny, usually quite kind and a huge GiantBomb fan. I've known him for going on a year. BUT MOST DAMNINGLY OF ALL, HE DOESN'T DO ORAL.

@bacongames: I used to have a very active account on GiantBomb! Had over a 1000 wiki points and everything. But time got away with me so I decided just to make a new account when the premium on the old one wore out.

#24 Posted by Milkman (16540 posts) -

Dude sounds like a dumbass. It would probably be best to break it off now. Or murder him, whatever works.

#25 Posted by freakin9 (1102 posts) -

Some guys have a filter that they can think things like this, but not express it to the person they are with and potentially change their mind. This man doesn't seem to have such a filter, and while he might change his mind, you might want to maintain your self respect instead. Personally, I would break up with a girl immediately if they said that, and only if they reacted like they were kidding or I misheard something would I not. No reason why you shouldn't do the same.

#26 Posted by BaconGames (3297 posts) -

@barfqueen: Pardon me then for the post-count conclusion. If anything it's encouraging to know it's still on the brain.

Back on topic though, NO ORAL?!?!?! You should have just started with that (I kid...somewhat). Still it goes to show that burning a bridge is still burning a bridge and it either reveals a lot about him or leaves him (and you) in a bad place. Regardless the ball is in your court and as hard as it is to deal with this, partially because he doesn't seem like a monster (barring that no oral business), you can and probably should cut it off now. If he truly feels this way, then you can walk with your head high away from this one.

#27 Posted by JasonR86 (9609 posts) -
#28 Edited by spraynardtatum (2614 posts) -

He's putting on a show. Tell him to cut the shit.

#29 Posted by Original_Hank (94 posts) -

That dude sounds pretty shitty. Honestly breaking it off sounds like the right thing to do. No point in staying in a relationship with someone who doesn't want to be with you. Especially around college age people don't know what the hell they want or where they are going with their lives and things change all the time, and that can lead to a lot of broken hearts. Its gonna be shitty for a while but just focus on yourself and your life. Find happiness there, and you'll be ok. And remember, one day you will find your barf KING. ( I just really wanted to write that last bit)

#30 Posted by RollingZeppelin (1916 posts) -

Yeah but is this guy really immature? He has told her exactly what he wants from the relationship. There are no games whatsoever in his conversation. He want to keep sleeping with her and then when it becomes convenient for him he wants to break up with her. I kind of respect that. Not him being a complete asshat about it, but the complete no games approach. I mean look it's kind of stunned the op. She's been told this and she still has to think about whether to break up with him or not. It's Ballsy.

The fact that he assumed she wanted certain things out of the relationship without even talking to her and then basing his decision of breaking up with her on a completely unsubstantiated assumption is not only immature but just plain stupid. There is nothing admirable or respectable about the way he acted, blurting out your dumb idiot thoughts when your bombed off your ass is not ballsy.

#31 Posted by NoK (298 posts) -

Jesus just get out of the relationship, if he gets drunk and starts saying shit like that already then just wait until you get serious. No six months is not serious, it's nothing, you're in college go enjoy this time instead of worrying about some dude that needs to figure out some life

#32 Posted by SuperCycle (332 posts) -

@rollingzeppelin: Yeah but despite his obvious and idiotic misinterpretation of what he thought she wanted. He still came right out and told her what he wanted and expected from the relationship. Even the next day when he was sober he stood by what he said. Sure he tried to back peddle his way out of the fight, but he didn't try to throw off what he said as drunken ramblings. She now should know exactly where she stands with him.

#33 Edited by ArtelinaRose (1843 posts) -

Trans girl opinion, make of that what you will

He sounds like garbage, honestly. Everything you've typed up there says to me doesn't respect you or your opinions. He doesn't want your input, he doesn't want you both to be happy, and you should get the heck out of it as soon as you can. It'll hurt, and you will be very sad, and I am truly sorry for that. But don't let this man take advantage of you.

Seriously, what kind of jerk would try to justify breaking up with you at HIS convenience and then immediately go for sex? UGH. Complete lack of respect. He does not see you as human. He sees you as a woman, and as such, beneath him.

#34 Posted by phampire (281 posts) -

You seem to want a long term relationship (which is cool), he doesn't (fine but he wasn't upfront about it), he claims to love you and he doesn't do oral. Nothing adds up, burn all the bridges and move on.

#35 Posted by NMC2008 (1231 posts) -

Yeah but is this guy really immature? He has told her exactly what he wants from the relationship. There are no games whatsoever in his conversation. He want to keep sleeping with her and then when it becomes convenient for him he wants to break up with her. I kind of respect that. Not him being a complete asshat about it, but the complete no games approach. I mean look it's kind of stunned the op. She's been told this and she still has to think about whether to break up with him or not. It's Ballsy.

I agree with this, usually people hide this type of shit for months or years and become miserable while wasting a ton of time but this guy came to the plate and swung with no hesitation, that's great, what's not great is the order of which he tried to have sex, which leads me to believe he's also either a huge fucking troll or he's genuinely oblivious to the feelings/emotional reactions of the female. Saying what he said and then ask for sex sounds like something out of a Kevin Smith film, it's pretty fucking funny tbh. Anyway, just give him his wish and leave, don't try to work it out or nothing like that, he laid his cards firmly on the table and hammered nails into them with his hands.

#36 Posted by Vuud (1943 posts) -

Just dump his ass. I don't get why some dummies try to salvage relationships when they aren't even married to the person. So what are you doing later, baby?

#37 Posted by Random45 (1057 posts) -

Haha, what? He wants to break up with you, but not NOW?

I mean, at least he's honest I guess? I would probably try to find a better way to convey the message, and I DEFINITELY wouldn't expect the person to stick around afterwards. He probably never really meant to tell you that, but was drunk and it slipped, and now he's trying to do damage control. Him saying that he still loved you and wanting to have sex afterwards makes him sound like a huge asshole though.

Also, kudos on posting the picture. At least you seem to acknowledge how dumb it is to ask a video game community a question like this.

#38 Posted by Korwin (2830 posts) -

Putting his cards on the table about what he wants in a relationship right now is a good thing, honesty in that department matters and more people should take that approach. However laying out a convenient time to break it off for him expecting you to adhere to the plan was a straight up maximum douche maneuver. One of these things would outweigh the other in my opinion (hint, it's the one where he's a dick).

#39 Edited by RollingZeppelin (1916 posts) -

@rollingzeppelin: Yeah but despite his obvious and idiotic misinterpretation of what he thought she wanted. He still came right out and told her what he wanted and expected from the relationship. Even the next day when he was sober he stood by what he said. Sure he tried to back peddle his way out of the fight, but he didn't try to throw off what he said as drunken ramblings. She now should know exactly where she stands with him.

Ok, so instead of treating the delicate situation with respect for this person you've been with for quite a while you just get the hard part over and done with when you're shit faced, and then "stick to your guns" by blaming the break-up on your made up thoughts on how your girlfriend wants the relationship to go. I can think of many ways to handle the situation better. The fact that he still tried to get sex after that just shows that he's using her and doesn't give a shit. People who use others like that are not ones to look up to, no matter how brutally honest they are about their diskishness.

#40 Posted by Slag (4044 posts) -

@barfqueen:

Well even if his intentions are good (a lot of people don't want to continue a relationship post graduation due to jobs/moving/distance etc. ), the fact he never initiated a dialog with you about his this and told you what your beliefs are (without ever bothering to actually ask you at all) and then immediately tried to have desperation make-up sex with you is a humongous red flag. I hate to say it but there's a good chance he doesn't care about you the way you care about him, or if he did maybe he doesn't now. Or maybe he is still a good person, just going through a bad phase and not treating you well. Either way he is not being a good partner here and you don't deserve to be treated that way.

A lot of college guys will try to go the passive aggressive route to make the woman the "bad guy" when they want out of a relationship, just because they don't want to be seen as the "dumper". At least at my alma mater there was usually negative social repercussions for guys who dumped well liked girls. That's what this sounds like to me, he's too cowardly to dump you and is waiting for you or circumstances to do it for him.

You gave him a pretty good chance to explain himself. And given that's been a few days and he hasn't come up and apologized or realized his error, I suspect he's a lost cause.

In any event he sounds already mentally checked out of the relationship. I don't see how you'd benefit by hanging around longer to just get hurt again. You can give him one last chance if you want, but I've rarely ever seen that go well. What usually happens there is the guy stays out of guilt, not out of actual desire to be with you, and he starts to act badly (inattentive, dismissive, wandering eye etc). In your shoes I'd kick his ass to the curb. I'd feel terrible doing it, but I'd do it. A clean break is usually best as painful as it is.

Might as well move on and hopefully find someone else if you want, but most importantly remove this Sword of Damocles from your last days of college. There are some pretty epic Senior parties and what not usually at the end of the year, might as well be in a mood to enjoy them without worrying about this guys's problems.

anyway good luck whatever you decide.

#41 Posted by joshwent (2136 posts) -

So... why haven't you already dumped him?!

Really though, I think the only other thing to say is that openness is always the best policy in relationships. If you're not okay with the "plan" he laid out, ask him if he really meant it. If yes, gtfo. If no, consider your attachment to him as an individual and your actual plans for this specific relationship, weighed against your ideal partner/relationship. As I said, that behavior can't be excused away by booze or a Y chromosome, so it's more than just a meaningless slip of the tongue. And you're young (I assume if you're about to graduate), so also consider that you're about to enter the world of literally every potential bachelor on the planet. And a few of them just might also be smart, funny, have good taste in video game related internet antics, and be a cunning linguist to boot.

#42 Edited by Manhattan_Project (2119 posts) -

@barfqueen: While its an asshole move, if its the truth he might have done you a favor. You can now decide when its over. If you wanna stay with him purely to get some of DAT ASS knowing full well that it won't lead to anything meaningful, then stay with him. If you really like him and the thought of breaking up with him down the road hurts, you should probably break it off right now. Might as well start the healing process now rather than later. Or cut it off before it even gets to that point.

Whatever you do, make sure to think it through and make sure its what you want to do.

Edit: I just saw you mention he "doesn't do oral?" What. I hope he doesn't expect any head thrown his way because I don't understand why anyone would tolerate that bullshit. Unless you're like this one girl I know who doesn't like oral because she thinks when a guy looks up at her its way too awkward?? But she's just a crazy person.

#43 Edited by SuperCycle (332 posts) -

@rollingzeppelin: Hey, I think everyone is in agreement that the guy is an ass. and she should have dumped him the minute he told her that. Honestly though, wouldn't you want to know that the guy is a complete asshole sooner rather than later? Six months isn't really that long of a time. He could've dated her all throughout college and probably would have cheated on her every chance he had. I mean he's basically told her that she is there to keep his bed warm until he find someone better. I don't know why she even needed to talk to anyone to decide that she should be as far away from this guy as possible.

#44 Edited by Sinusoidal (1299 posts) -
@barfqueen said:
...but I still really adore this dude...

Serious question: Why? It sounds like he's made his stance pretty clear at this point. You are an until-graduation, fuck-buddy. If you want more, dump his ass and find it elsewhere.

On why boys are so dumb?

He's not being dumb, he's being an asshole. You are being dumb by putting up with his shit.

#45 Edited by RollingZeppelin (1916 posts) -

@supercycle said:

@rollingzeppelin: Hey, I think everyone is in agreement that the guy is an ass. and she should have dumped him the minute he told her that. Honestly though, wouldn't you want to know that the guy is a complete asshole sooner rather than later? Six months isn't really that long of a time. He could've dated her all throughout college and probably would have cheated on her every chance he had. I mean he's basically told her that she is there to keep his bed warm until he find someone better. I don't know why she even needed to talk to anyone to decide that she should be as far away from this guy as possible.

True, your post just read to me like you were defending the guy. It's pretty late, I should go to bed. Anyway, I agree, it's good that he revealed his hand this early so she can move on before truly committing to the asshole.

Grumble grumble grumble. Why does the only conversation on forums I participate in seem to be arguing and computer advice? What am I doing with my life?

#46 Posted by barfqueen (41 posts) -

@sinusoidal: He just always made me very happy. Of course, now he decidedly isn't.

#47 Posted by Manhattan_Project (2119 posts) -

@supercycle said:

@rollingzeppelin: Hey, I think everyone is in agreement that the guy is an ass. and she should have dumped him the minute he told her that. Honestly though, wouldn't you want to know that the guy is a complete asshole sooner rather than later? Six months isn't really that long of a time. He could've dated her all throughout college and probably would have cheated on her every chance he had. I mean he's basically told her that she is there to keep his bed warm until he find someone better. I don't know why she even needed to talk to anyone to decide that she should be as far away from this guy as possible.

True, your post just read to me like you were defending the guy. It's pretty late, I should go to bed. Anyway, I agree, it's good that he revealed his hand this early so she can move on before truly committing to the asshole.

Grumble grumble grumble. Why does the only conversation on forums I participate in seem to be arguing and computer advice? What am I doing with my life?

To be fair most internet conversations can be categorized into either arguing or some sort of computer advice.

#48 Posted by slyspider (1157 posts) -

TBH i would start fucking with him and hint at his small manhood or that he sucks in bed. Ok don't do that because thats mean but yeah fuck that guy.

Also 'boys' are dumb because 'girls' are dumb, its in our genderization we go through to do stupid shit like this, its learned behavior from society

#49 Edited by Splodge (1070 posts) -

Kick him to the curb. It sucks, but it will save you a year or so of mess. I have been in relationships before that I should have ended 6 months in, but let it drag on for another year due to feelings of guilt / being emotionally manipulated. My last girlfriend was the shortest relationship I ever had because I recognized the signs straight away.... unfortunately, I seem to attract the crazy ones.

The "I want to break up in two months" thing is a classic sign of someone who is emotionally manipulative. He is effectively giving you a deadline and making you worry about it. Whether subconsciously or consciously, the idea of you agonizing over losing him gives him a serious ego boost. That coupled with the sex directly afterwards is an ego-maniacal home run. This may not be entirely his fault. There's a good chance he has some issues with abandonment or was maybe paid little attention when he was younger. But, he is an adult and should know that that is a crazy fucking thing to do, and that he is affecting your life adversely.

I know its your first real long term relationship, but believe me there are a multitude of guys who would be happy to date a girl with the same interests as them. College is certainly a time to be playing the field. This is a necessary step (not for everyone, but for most people) in figuring out what kind of guys you are in to, what kind of girl you want to be and what kind of relationship you want to have.

Just be safe, and never let any sleazeballs (we all make mistakes) talk you into sex without protection. Many folk have plenty of sex with different partners in college, not all of which is well advised. I was in college with guys who wore convincing girls to have unprotected sex like a badge of honour.

Enjoy your college life!

edit: Just realized that last line sounds sarcastic. It isn't :) ANd neither is this one. OK I'm done now.

#50 Posted by believer258 (11668 posts) -