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#1 Posted by astrotriforce (1326 posts) -

"There is nothing in which people more betray their character than in what they laugh at." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that moral decay can be a cause of school violence. Case in point: back in my dad's day, the Bible was read before class each and every day and prayer was lead by the teacher before school work began. If respect is not taught to a child and consequence is not learned, then no one should be surprised when lack of respect and lack of caring about consequences are what is dolled out to society.

For those who are not "in the know", I'm going to quote for you what the Bible teaches. What used to be taught, front and center, in every classroom. What's engraved at the roof of the Supreme Court:

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself an idol.

3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.

4. Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

5. Honor your father and your mother.

6. You shall not murder.

7. You shall not commit adultery.

8. You shall not steal.

9. You shall not lie.

10. You shall not covet (desire what others own that is not yours to take).

I know posting these ten well known rules will be "controversial" on these here GiantBomb boards, but I ask a simple question. Christians are taught to fear God. Fear His might. Fear His power. Fear His ability to judge your soul once death comes, as it comes to us all.

Here is the challenge. Give me a more convincing counter-argument to prevent such tragedies like the Ohio school shootings, than the argument that a Christian who follows the rules of his Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, someone who follows the rules above, is less likely to do what that kid and all kids involved in school shootings have done to their fellow man.

I will end by quoting Jesus, who sets the example that all believing Christians follow:

"There is a saying, 'Love your friends and hate your enemies.' But I say: Love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way you will be acting as true sons of your Father in heaven. For He gives His sunlight to both the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust too. If you love only those who love you, what good is that? Even scoundrels do that much. If you are friendly only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even the heathen do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." - Luke 10:25-37

Romans 13:10: Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

#2 Posted by VierasTalo (741 posts) -

Yeah, let's make our kids experience immense fear toward malovelent deities so they won't do bad stuff any more. Yay, ruling with fear is so much fuuun! Kawai!

Online
#3 Edited by dabe (299 posts) -

Christianity has worked so well in culling/curbing violence in the past..

#4 Posted by Village_Guy (2544 posts) -

Fair enough. I counter your decently well constructed argument with two words: The Crusades.

On a more serious note though. You are talking about forcing Christianity on to a multi-cultural and multi-religious society, it just wouldn't be accepted to force a religion upon anyone in public schools these days.

Also, this won't end well.

#5 Posted by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -

@astrotriforce: You are wrong.

#6 Posted by StarvingGamer (8135 posts) -

I'd rather teach my children compassion and empathy so that they can develop good morals on their own rather than scare them into following an archaic set of rules put forth by an intangible boogeyman who promotes, among other things, the degradation of women and persecution of homosexuals.

#7 Posted by CountMacula (234 posts) -

Fairly certain that according to the Augustinian numbering method, which is what the Roman Catholic Church uses for the numbering method (versus two others whose names elude me at present), the first and second of your points are combined into a single commandment, while the last one is split into two separate commandments - coveting neighbour's house and coveting neighbour's wife. It's why most depictions of the stone tablets have 1 - 3 on the a single tablet (the commandments dealing with God) and 4 - 10 on the second (commandments dealing with the rest of the world).

But hey, it's been a long time since I've read the bible, so that could be completely wrong.

#8 Posted by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -

@dabe said:

Christianity has worked so well in culling/curbing violence in the past..

...and nowadays.

#9 Posted by Drebin_893 (2909 posts) -

I think your point is 100% valid, however I believe it's fundamentally flawed in that you assume these are exclusively Christian values. Any good, moral man, woman, Christian, Muslim, Jew or Buddhist would adhere to those 'commandments'.

#10 Edited by AlisterCat (5531 posts) -

The commandments are reflective of qualities that are good and beneficial regardless of whether you are religious or not. Do not teach fear, or put such power on a pedestal. If rule through fear and power is good enough for your god it's good enough for you, and I in no way condone that behaviour.

I've seen people saying Obama isn't a real Christian, or is not supporting Christians, but he understands the importance of separation between church and state. It is so important. He gave a great speech about it.

#11 Posted by dabe (299 posts) -

@CptBedlam: Indeed. Don't worry though, living in fear is a good thing according to the OP.

#12 Posted by Matfei90 (1288 posts) -

This thread is a troll, right?

#13 Edited by believer258 (11785 posts) -

*checks to see if troll*

1101 posts? Still entirely possible...

Anyway, you seem to be assuming that atheists don't have morals. Strangely enough, I hear many Christians hating on homosexual relationships and looking down on them...

To be honest with you, we all need a kick in the teeth every now and then, but chucking Bilbe verses helps precisely no one. You cannot be truly afraid of something that you do not believe, a concept which many Christians don't seem to be able to fathom.

#14 Posted by Drebin_893 (2909 posts) -

@StarvingGamer said:

I'd rather teach my children compassion and empathy so that they can develop good morals on their own rather than scare them into following an archaic set of rules put forth by an intangible boogeyman who promotes, among other things, the degradation of women and persecution of homosexuals.

#15 Posted by Rittsy (77 posts) -

These work a little better...

#16 Posted by DarkShaper (1325 posts) -

because christians never kill anyone... morality has nothing to do with faith at all.

#17 Edited by Stonyman65 (2669 posts) -

... I'm going to assume this is a joke.

If its not... Well, I respect your views, but this isn't exactly viable these days. Not everyone is Christian, and not everyone holds religion in such a high esteem as you do.

#18 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3782 posts) -

@astrotriforce: The Bible causes just as much moral decay as it prevents. Gay-bashing in the name of the bible, hatred and fear of Muslims, anti-Semitism, the Crusades, Westboro Baptist Church, the huge rash of child rape going throughout the church which many in the church have known about and hidden and protected for years; morons use the Bible in the name of all of these things, and they're much more common than school shootings. This country is being torn apart because Christians can't accept that not everyone agrees with them, and with their own sense of entitlement and moral-superiority. You know, the same beliefs that caused Muslim extremists to murder thousands of civilians on 9/11.

The Bible is not the source of all morals. I'm atheist, or agnostic at best, and I still know right from wrong. I still know not to kill people, and to care about my family. That has nothing to do with the Bible, it's ingrained in people. Those rules were informed by man's natural goodness and common sense, and inserted into the Bible, not the other way around. That's why most of those rules are included in all major religions. Don't point out that certain religions say it's okay to murder in certain situations, because so does the Bible. God tells Abraham to kill his son, Isaac. What about when God ordered Joshua and his people to kill every man, woman and child in Canaan?

Christians are taught to fear God. Nice. Well, I like to live my life without fear. I like to think I can be a good person without the constant threat of punishment. I can be good on my own without some giant invisible deity threatening to hurt me if I don't.

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2012/February/Five-Students-Hurt-in-Ohio-Shooting/

Instead of trying to force your religion into this situation, the clear problem here was that the child was an outcast and bullied. Instead of assuming he didn't know right from wrong and that he needs a 2,000 year old book of allegories to teach him that, maybe we should address the fact that nobody taught him proper social etiquette, or that nobody had systems in place at the school to prevent bullying, or that the kids picking on him wouldn't leave him alone.

Oh, and along with the increasingly secular nature of our country, violent crime has dropped pretty dramatically.

You gave your opinion on the matter, that's fine, but please don't preach where it's not wanted. If Christianity is so great, people would come to it without you forcing it upon them. Don't try to claim that people just haven't heard the word of Jesus Christ, because your people have been forcing that down our throats in this country for the last hundred years and it just pushes people away.

Edit: Added when Christians thought murder was okay in the Bible, and the whole child-rape thing...

#19 Posted by astrotriforce (1326 posts) -

I'll only reply to convincing arguments.

@Village_Guy: Like this one. And who said the Crusades weren't wrong? By their very nature, did they not break the rules God set forth as listed above? This is not about the rules of the church, it is about the rules of God.

It only won't end well if people make it not end well. Which I agree with you, that will probably be the case since decency, respect, and intelligence left Giantbomb ages ago, but a man can try.

@CptBedlam: Nice.

@VierasTalo: I'm sure the dead kid wishes it was so, eh.

#20 Posted by AlexW00d (6235 posts) -

What you're saying is because I don't believe in a fucking imaginary being who controls everything I am more likely to go on a high school killing spree?

I think you need taking to a goddamn asylum.

#21 Posted by AlisterCat (5531 posts) -

@Rittsy: I had a good laugh watching that video. Great stuff.

#22 Posted by TobbRobb (4596 posts) -

Indoctrinate the young! That way they won't shoot each other!

Or you know, teach ethics and morals instead and BAN FUCKING GUNS.

#23 Posted by Drebin_893 (2909 posts) -

@astrotriforce: Would you be equally happy if Islamic values were taught in school? Because by your logic you should be.

#24 Posted by Equal_Opportunity_Destroyer497 (559 posts) -

Fear-mongering isn't the answer to anything. One shouldn't need to be told by anyone that killing, stealing, and cheating are wrong, let alone by some religious dogma that's been misused consistently since it's inception. Any remotely healthy-minded person inherently knows you shouldn't do these things. Whenever any young person goes off the rails, the blame is to be placed squarely on bad parenting and/or neglect. It's their responsibility to tweak their kids' moral compass, not some "holy" book. And, yes, this thread is not going to end well.

#25 Posted by CaLe (3957 posts) -

Why teach a bunch of myths and lies? It will just make them believe it because they are too young to question what adults tell them. I think it's better stick to reality and the truth. It's possible to get the message across without resorting Christian (this is Christian religious stuff you mention right?) tales.

#26 Posted by Stonyman65 (2669 posts) -

@Drebin_893 said:

I think your point is 100% valid, however I believe it's fundamentally flawed in that you assume these are exclusively Christian values. Any good, moral man, woman, Christian, Muslim, Jew or Buddhist would adhere to those 'commandments'.

THIS.

/Thread

#27 Posted by Doctorchimp (4074 posts) -

@astrotriforce: Convince me this won't lead to people abusing it and raping little boys....

#28 Posted by Matfei90 (1288 posts) -
@astrotriforce said:

 since decency, respect, and intelligence left Giantbomb ages ago

Well, isn't that a presumptuous and arrogant thing to say.  Just because the majority of us don't subscribe to your flavour of mythology doesn't mean we're devoid of the above qualities.
#29 Edited by Canteu (2821 posts) -

And tell me oh wise Christian lunatic, who is going to enforce these "commandments" of yours? Since the only way they seem to be in place for you is fear of retribution from something that does not exist.

I will end by quoting Jesus:

"What's this day of rest shit? What's this bullshit? I don't fuckin' care! It don't matter to Jesus. But you're not foolin' me, man. You might fool the fucks in the league office, but you don't fool Jesus. This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha! I would have fucked you in the ass Saturday. I fuck you in the ass next Wednesday instead. Wooo! You got a date Wednesday, baby!"

#30 Edited by nori (17 posts) -

@TobbRobb said:

Indoctrinate the young! That way they won't shoot each other!

Or you know, teach ethics and morals instead and BAN FUCKING GUNS.

Do you really think that guns are the issue here? Really think about that... For a kid to go around murdering people there is quite obviously a deeper issue that "banning guns" isn't going to fix. I'm sure you've heard it before, guns don't kill people, people kill people. Banning guns has never and will never fix violence issues. Assuming you could get rid of all guns, criminals will just use knives, baseball bats, fists, etc... Criminals are the problems here...

#31 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3782 posts) -

America is self-professedly one of the most Christian countries in the world. Why then, do we have more school shootings than Canada, or England, or Wales, or all these other countries that are undoubtedly "less Christian"? I know that facts and numbers consistently mess with your religious beliefs, but if you could address that one, then maybe we could get to the bottom of this discussion.

#32 Posted by dbol (92 posts) -

Christ, this is the most retarded thread.

#33 Edited by zels (206 posts) -

Great idea.

#34 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8698 posts) -

Oh come on.
 
Silly that its you posting this.

#35 Posted by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -

@nori: Guns make it easier to kill people and one can do more harm with them if you intend to harm other people.

#36 Posted by Conformunist (105 posts) -

@astrotriforce: Here's my counter-argument. You can't prevent random acts of violence because they are random. Despite your insistence that this is "moral decay" (a christian buzz-term with little to no meaning) in action, it isn't. It's crazy people doing crazy things. It's been happening since the beginning of the human race. Thousands upon thousands of factors affect us on a daily basis, sometimes they are mental disorders, sometimes they are bullying, and sometimes is kids wanting to get the attention they crave. You think reading kiddie stories about a big scary ghost man to the school kids before class will help? Please. It just gives the disenfranchised something else to target their angst at. Forcing religion on the people simply makes said religion the target for the people who do not want it. Instead of school shootings, you'd have church bombings. It's happened. It still happens.

For someone who liberally quotes Goethe, you seem to have a tenuous understanding of the human condition.

#37 Posted by N7 (3580 posts) -
@Matfei90 said:
This thread is a troll, right?
If you need to ask, he's already won.
#38 Posted by YoThatLimp (1900 posts) -

How about that christian fundamentalist that killed 69 people in Norway just last year?

#39 Posted by Drebin_893 (2909 posts) -

@YoThatLimp said:

How about that christian fundamentalist that killed 69 people in Norway just last year?

BANG!

#40 Posted by pyromagnestir (4291 posts) -

Fear of God can't fix a broken brain (You shoot up a school, your brain is broke). Which is bound to happen with as many people on the planet as exist. So I'm gonna go ahead and say, respectfully, that you're wrong. Nice try, I guess.

#41 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3782 posts) -

If you wanted to argue that every student should get an hour or half an hour of therapy every week, I might listen.

#42 Posted by Simplexity (1382 posts) -

Weird how a nation Japan who has no religion really to speak of has no school shootings, or murder in general at all.

#43 Posted by yoshisaur (2701 posts) -

Religion or not, ,an will always sin. It just so happens that religion has made me a better person because it gave me the rule-set and ideas that make me a good person. I agree with this post as much as I am against it.

#44 Posted by Piqued_Interest (63 posts) -

A school should not have to teach morality. That responsibility is reserved for the parent/guardian outside of the institution. -And I thought this was a video game site.

#45 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4701 posts) -

@ccampb89 said:

Religion or not, ,an will always sin. It just so happens that religion has made me a better person because it gave me the rule-set and ideas that make me a good person. I agree with this post as much as I am against it.

That's called parenting, man. Whether by your parents or a pastor, give credit where it is due.

#46 Edited by Djratchet (669 posts) -

Because pushing Christianity on everyone is the answer. Right. Fuck off.

#47 Posted by Demoskinos (14752 posts) -
@TobbRobb Banning guns will do nothing. Most gun related crime happens with unregistered guns.
#48 Posted by Sargus (726 posts) -

@astrotriforce: As a Christian I agree with the intent behind your argument, and in terms of logic it should work, right? Jesus teaches against violence and multitudes of other crimes, so just get that into people's heads and everything should be awesome!

Unfortunately, history has proven time and time again that it doesn't work that way. Even if you can force people to listen to the Bible (which you shouldn't but that's another discussion), you can't force people to take it to heart. Some utterly atrocious crimes have been committed by people who claimed to be Christians - some even claim God made them do it. As much as I, as a very spiritual man who hates seeing the torment all of over the world would love to say, "Learning the Bible will solve everything!" It won't. That sucks, and I wish it wasn't the case, but Bible knowledge isn't enough.

You have to change people's hearts in order to make them become better people, and trying to shove religion in their faces actually hurts that more than it helps.

#49 Edited by yoshisaur (2701 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

@ccampb89 said:

Religion or not, ,an will always sin. It just so happens that religion has made me a better person because it gave me the rule-set and ideas that make me a good person. I agree with this post as much as I am against it.

That's called parenting, man. Whether by your parents or a pastor, give credit where it is due.

Actually, no. My parents were never a part of my religious life and gave me more freedom than I probably should have had. I never went to church either. My Grandmother gave me a bible as a child and I used my brain-power to form opinions for myself. The way I treat women, myself, and my approach to challenges in this world are self-bred. I will give credit in other areas, but the man I am today is born of the painful, long, and sometimes enjoyable experiences I put myself into that molded me here. Simply put, I used parts of the Bible (if we really got into a discussion about it, you would know that my opinions differ vastly from the majority of Christians) to guide me into being a better person. It's a tool, not a crutch.

#50 Posted by TheSeductiveMoose (3617 posts) -

What's convincing about your argument? You stated a lot of things, but you provided no facts to back them up.