#1 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

For the past few years I have felt something wrong was with this movie. It was just so awesome yet I still felt there was something completely and massively wrong with it. You see, I am one of the folks that does believe that the first two movies are canon while the other two... never existed. However the more I think about it, the more I think on how fucked the timeline is!

You see, I got a simple thing here to explain.

1. Kyle goes back in time, goes to town with Sarah Conner and John Conner is born.

2. John Conner grows up into a kid, gets hunted and a T-800 and his mom team up.

3. John is able to throw every piece of future technology in the lava chamber. (I don't care if it is called a smelter! It has a fucking lava lake!)

These solutions make it so this happens with every point.

1. With no future war, Kyle either may not exist anymore, or does but can't go back in time to do Sarah Conner to create John Conner.

2. John would cease existence as soon as he threw that technology in the lava lake due to PARADOX!!!

3. John Ceases to exist and is removed from reality just as Kyle is. The future war never happens and everyone lives a happy life without death machines.

So yeah. John should CEASE existence upon throwing that shit in the lava lake! I have tried to reason on how it CAN'T have happened... or that reality just... doesn't seem to care that he exists...

Isn't it obvious! You're your own Grandpa!!!

Hell... the Futurama paradox works BETTER than the Terminator 2 one. This basically means that as long as John exists, he will cause a machine war to happen just because he exists!

Well isn't that a good fucking ending!

However, there is one theory which may explain this plothole and completely ignore the crappy 3 and fourth movies!

Multiverse theory!

The basic theory is that in one universe you choose one thing, while in another you choose another! This happens and infinite number of times, creating practically endless amounts of other universes. Many the same as your and many not the same at all.

Here is a basic sketch of the two timelines in which things diverged in this series!

Terminator 1 is the black line.

Terminator 2 is the red one.

Terminator 3 is purple.

and Terminator 4 is Blue.

While the time when Kyle goes back in time at the end is Black once more.

GE stands for Good Ending of Terminator 2.

Basically, Kyle proves multiverse theory correct while also saving his own timeline. Since John Conner was born after he arrived, that means two things, ONE, this moment in time just split into another universe completely while with the multiverse theory creates a future that is much like his.

My brain is officially hurting... but hey, that is the nature of Multiverse theory.

But yes, Kyle just created himself and destroyed himself with a SINGLE act... So, quite literally, he sexed divided zero... That is funny and scary as hell.

So yeah, this means that Kyle went back into his own universe and created two/more of them in one action... Damn... This series just got Kingdom Hearts level confusing...

So yeah, either the Terminator Universe has a multiverse theory or it is a major fucking plot hole the size of Montana!

What do you guys think of this?

#2 Posted by JasonR86 (9611 posts) -

@Jay444111:

I think you're thinking too much about Terminator and its story.

#3 Posted by MooseyMcMan (10556 posts) -

Time travel never makes sense when you think about it. It's because time travel is impossible, so there's no way to have it make logical sense.

#4 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -
@MooseyMcMan said:

Time travel never makes sense when you think about it. It's because time travel is impossible, so there's no way to have it make logical sense.

Basically this. Every piece of time travel fiction has its own set of rules and always seems to break them.
#5 Posted by JeanLuc (3574 posts) -

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

#6 Posted by SuperSambo (2854 posts) -

Imagine what you could do if you spent your many empty hours thinking of something useful.

#7 Posted by TorMasturba (1095 posts) -

Yeah but the way they explained it away was to say that even if destroying the T-800 tech gets smelted it only pushes the rise of the machines back, not stops it from happening, ie: kyle is still sent back in time, he's just a couple years older.

#8 Posted by AjayRaz (12418 posts) -

@MooseyMcMan said:

Time travel never makes sense when you think about it. It's because time travel is impossible, so there's no way to have it make logical sense.

this should be the bullet in the head of every time travel thread

#9 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

Da ja vue did time travel like i like to think it works, but usualy when its done like that its not a intresting story. because there is no danger of people messing up the time stream, because, like they say on lost "What happened happened".

#10 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@TorMasturba said:

Yeah but the way they explained it away was to say that even if destroying the T-800 tech gets smelted it only pushes the rise of the machines back, not stops it from happening, ie: kyle is still sent back in time, he's just a couple years older.

However there IS a good ending to Terminator 2. (Only with... weirdly enough, DVD cheats... not joking.) Where Sarah Conner grows old and John grows up and haves some kids and the war never happened...

So yeah... I would far rather go with that then the two other movies. With my theory though, BOTH of them happened!

#11 Posted by pornstorestiffi (4909 posts) -

@TorMasturba said:

Yeah but the way they explained it away was to say that even if destroying the T-800 tech gets smelted it only pushes the rise of the machines back, not stops it from happening, ie: kyle is still sent back in time, he's just a couple years older.

I even remember them saying in T3, that there is no escaping Skynet going online, it will happen no matter what.

#12 Edited by Landon (4130 posts) -

You can look at this in two ways.

1: Time moves in a straight line, meaning, they didn't save the fufure. If John Connor is still continuing to exist, then that means that destroying Skynet wasn't the final nail in the coffin, which I think is the plot to Terminator 3 (never saw it so dont quote me on that)

2: They created an alternate timeline. John Connor is already born, his father may not exist yet but it doesn't matter because time moves like an ocean and he did exist at one point, which is all that matters in the circle of life.

#13 Posted by Video_Game_King (36097 posts) -

@MooseyMcMan said:

Time travel never makes sense when you think about it. It's because time travel is impossible, so there's no way to have it make logical sense.

So we're all frozen in time?

#14 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3803 posts) -

Time travel dog.

Time travel.

#15 Posted by Brendan (7696 posts) -

@AjayRaz said:

@MooseyMcMan said:

Time travel never makes sense when you think about it. It's because time travel is impossible, so there's no way to have it make logical sense.

this should be the bullet in the head of every time travel thread

Substitute "time travel" for "zombie apocalypse" and "zombies" and you have another perfect statement that I think about sometimes.

#16 Posted by Flaboere (344 posts) -

@Video_Game_King said:

@MooseyMcMan said:

Time travel never makes sense when you think about it. It's because time travel is impossible, so there's no way to have it make logical sense.

So we're all frozen in time?

How'd you get to that conclusion?

No, what he's saying is, that time travel where the traveler goes back to interfere in stuff that interferes with the time traveling is impossible, as it should be in Terminator.

Time travel is almost always stupid in movies, maybe except that one where the two dudes go into a box to travel back, and plan it really well.

#17 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@Flaboere said:

@Video_Game_King said:

@MooseyMcMan said:

Time travel never makes sense when you think about it. It's because time travel is impossible, so there's no way to have it make logical sense.

So we're all frozen in time?

How'd you get to that conclusion?

No, what he's saying is, that time travel where the traveler goes back to interfere in stuff that interferes with the time traveling is impossible, as it should be in Terminator.

Time travel is almost always stupid in movies, maybe except that one where the two dudes go into a box to travel back, and plan it really well.

Or do a multiverse thing... then suddenly time travel doesn't seem as worth it anymore if it doesn't affect your timeline... Kinda like how in Legend of zelda. Link basically abandoned his original timeline to death and saved the future and the past!

#18 Posted by Video_Game_King (36097 posts) -

@Flaboere said:

How'd you get to that conclusion?

Our own forward movement through time.

#19 Posted by TheHT (10930 posts) -

@pornstorestiffi said:

@TorMasturba said:

Yeah but the way they explained it away was to say that even if destroying the T-800 tech gets smelted it only pushes the rise of the machines back, not stops it from happening, ie: kyle is still sent back in time, he's just a couple years older.

I even remember them saying in T3, that there is no escaping Skynet going online, it will happen no matter what.

Que the Reapers.

#20 Posted by Akyho (1586 posts) -

See that's why you have to include the next two films and the tv series. Since its basically says. No matter what you do the war comes. It just depends on how and when it happens.

#21 Posted by Spoonman671 (4565 posts) -

Or what about how there shouldn't have been a Terminator 2 in the first place because Skynet was destroyed before Kyle Reese traveled back in time?

#22 Posted by Fattony12000 (7097 posts) -
#23 Edited by FLStyle (4595 posts) -

@Jay444111: Please stop misspelling Connor, you've got doing it as well now, thanks.

EDIT: Also this.

And there you have it, time explained by The Doctor himself.

#24 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@Spoonman671 said:

Or what about how there shouldn't have been a Terminator 2 in the first place because Skynet was destroyed before Kyle Reese traveled back in time?

Wait... wut...

Okay my brain imploded a bit and had to think on this one. But there IS a deleted scene at the end of Terminator 1 which shows the factory that the original Terminator was killed in WAS Cyberdyne... the company that made Skynet. So yeah... I think I solved that one... maybe... I think.

#25 Posted by believer258 (11682 posts) -

Well, your problem is that you completely discount the third and fourth movies, which while not masterpieces aren't bad either. They wrapped up your plot hole in the third one ("You only postponed it").

Still, I can't berate you much for discounting something as canon. I have a strong dislike of the movie that wrapped up the original Full Metal Alchemist anime and I try to forget that it happened.

#26 Posted by Liquidus (946 posts) -

@JeanLuc said:

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

Yeah, if you can possibly make sense of that movie.

#27 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

@Liquidus said:

@JeanLuc said:

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

Yeah, if you can possibly make sense of that movie.

Ugh. That movie would have been so much better if those actors could, ya know, actually act. The plot was interesting, but everybody in it was terrible.

#28 Posted by Ramone (2960 posts) -

@JeanLuc said:

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

Fuck that movie. I watched it once and I felt my brain crying out in pain. I should probably watch it again just to see if I can make any sense of it.

#29 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@believer258 said:

Well, your problem is that you completely discount the third and fourth movies, which while not masterpieces aren't bad either. They wrapped up your plot hole in the third one ("You only postponed it").

Still, I can't berate you much for discounting something as canon. I have a strong dislike of the movie that wrapped up the original Full Metal Alchemist anime and I try to forget that it happened.

I have to admit, I liked that movie... sure it isn't perfect and it seems to have tried to create some other new series where Ed and Al fight nazis or something but I still liked it... However Brotherhood is kick ass! Love that show more than the original IMO at least.

Also, I think that the Terminator series HAS to follow a multiversal timeline, heck there is a hidden ending IN T2 which is a damn good ending while the other one creates a damn apocalypse!

#30 Edited by Liquidus (946 posts) -

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Liquidus said:

@JeanLuc said:

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

Yeah, if you can possibly make sense of that movie.

Ugh. That movie would have been so much better if those actors could, ya know, actually act. The plot was interesting, but everybody in it was terrible.

Right, as oppose to talk about complicated things in complicated terms and stand around with ties and shirts and look smart. Agreed.

#31 Posted by TeflonBilly (4713 posts) -

@JeanLuc said:

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

I love that film. It really sent my mind for a loop.

#32 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

@Liquidus said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Liquidus said:

@JeanLuc said:

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

Yeah, if you can possibly make sense of that movie.

Ugh. That movie would have been so much better if those actors could, ya know, actually act. The plot was interesting, but everybody in it was terrible.

Right, as oppose to talk about complicated things in complicated terms and stand around with ties and shirts and look smart. Agreed.

What?

#33 Posted by believer258 (11682 posts) -

@Jay444111 said:

@believer258 said:

Well, your problem is that you completely discount the third and fourth movies, which while not masterpieces aren't bad either. They wrapped up your plot hole in the third one ("You only postponed it").

Still, I can't berate you much for discounting something as canon. I have a strong dislike of the movie that wrapped up the original Full Metal Alchemist anime and I try to forget that it happened.

I have to admit, I liked that movie... sure it isn't perfect and it seems to have tried to create some other new series where Ed and Al fight nazis or something but I still liked it... However Brotherhood is kick ass! Love that show more than the original IMO at least.

Also, I think that the Terminator series HAS to follow a multiversal timeline, heck there is a hidden ending IN T2 which is a damn good ending while the other one creates a damn apocalypse!

Wait, what? As far as I know, there's only one ending to Terminator 2, and it's not apocalyptic. Unless you're talking about this one, which I believe is officially non-canon or was made officially non-canon by the release of T3.

#34 Posted by Liquidus (946 posts) -

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Liquidus said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

@Liquidus said:

@JeanLuc said:

@MrKlorox: The closest I've seen to sticking to their rules is Primer.

Yeah, if you can possibly make sense of that movie.

Ugh. That movie would have been so much better if those actors could, ya know, actually act. The plot was interesting, but everybody in it was terrible.

Right, as oppose to talk about complicated things in complicated terms and stand around with ties and shirts and look smart. Agreed.

What?

I wasn't being sarcastic...maybe, I should have made that more clear, sorry.

#35 Edited by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@Jay444111 said:

@believer258 said:

Well, your problem is that you completely discount the third and fourth movies, which while not masterpieces aren't bad either. They wrapped up your plot hole in the third one ("You only postponed it").

Still, I can't berate you much for discounting something as canon. I have a strong dislike of the movie that wrapped up the original Full Metal Alchemist anime and I try to forget that it happened.

I have to admit, I liked that movie... sure it isn't perfect and it seems to have tried to create some other new series where Ed and Al fight nazis or something but I still liked it... However Brotherhood is kick ass! Love that show more than the original IMO at least.

Also, I think that the Terminator series HAS to follow a multiversal timeline, heck there is a hidden ending IN T2 which is a damn good ending while the other one creates a damn apocalypse!

Wait, what? As far as I know, there's only one ending to Terminator 2, and it's not apocalyptic. Unless you're talking about this one, which I believe is officially non-canon or was made officially non-canon by the release of T3.

Lol... is it just me or is every post in this topic started with a 'wait wut' or is that just me seeing this.

Anyways. My version doesn't actually include that ending unless you put in a VERY specific cheat code. yes, My copy of T2 has a cheat code to unlock that ending... Very weird I know.

But I consider the ending just as canon as the two other movies... thanks to the multiverse theory literally fixing all the dang problems with this ending and with also creating the next two movies.

#36 Posted by believer258 (11682 posts) -

@Jay444111 said:

@believer258 said:

@Jay444111 said:

@believer258 said:

Well, your problem is that you completely discount the third and fourth movies, which while not masterpieces aren't bad either. They wrapped up your plot hole in the third one ("You only postponed it").

Still, I can't berate you much for discounting something as canon. I have a strong dislike of the movie that wrapped up the original Full Metal Alchemist anime and I try to forget that it happened.

I have to admit, I liked that movie... sure it isn't perfect and it seems to have tried to create some other new series where Ed and Al fight nazis or something but I still liked it... However Brotherhood is kick ass! Love that show more than the original IMO at least.

Also, I think that the Terminator series HAS to follow a multiversal timeline, heck there is a hidden ending IN T2 which is a damn good ending while the other one creates a damn apocalypse!

Wait, what? As far as I know, there's only one ending to Terminator 2, and it's not apocalyptic. Unless you're talking about this one, which I believe is officially non-canon or was made officially non-canon by the release of T3.

Lol... is it just me or is every post in this topic started with a 'wait wut' or is that just me seeing this.

Anyways. My version doesn't actually include that ending unless you put in a VERY specific cheat code. yes, My copy of T2 has a cheat code to unlock that ending... Very weird I know.

But I consider the ending just as canon as the two other movies... thanks to the multiverse theory literally fixing all the dang problems with this ending and with also creating the next two movies.

Wait, what? Your DVD has a cheat code?

Dude, if the alternate ending is that well-hidden, then it wasn't meant to be canon at all in the first place. Just sayin'.

#37 Edited by Gravier251 (217 posts) -

Well, the terminator movies used conflicting takes on time travel, namely Predestination Paradox in Terminator 1 and Grandfather Paradox in terminator 2. (seems there are 2 topics today with me rambling about those theories, odd hehe).

Anyway, in Terminator 1 Skynet tried to prevent John Connor from being born, but that actually resulting in Kyle going back to prevent it, fathering John, etc. Esentially fulfilling how things had always been. John was born under those circumstances, always. Skynet merely fulfilled it's role in the set flow of time. John would grow up and eventually lead the resistance, etc.

Terminator 2 on the other hand goes the grandfather paradox route of having them trying to stop skynet from ever coming into being. They are shown to succeed, so spawn a parallel universe in which John is present despite all the factors that would cause him to even exist no longer being present.

Terminator 3 goes back to the roots with Terminator 1 and predestination. They essentially fail and get sealed away in a bunker. But there is a radio present, with a means of contact to various leaders which John will advise. Essentially implying that this is the way things have always been, and that the cause of John becoming the head of the resistance is because of his life till this point and being sealed in the bunker.

As for Terminator 4 i'm not sure, between screaming terminators and painful plot holes I just couldn't watch it all the way through.

Series as a whole though is a pretty canonical mess, to say nothing of the Sarah Connor Chronicles and it's myriad plotholes. Time travel makes for a messy narrative contrivance, especially if time is something that can be changed through time travel.

#38 Posted by Village_Guy (2507 posts) -

The story of any of the Terminator movies never made sense, as soon as you introduce time travel into a story, plotholes will appear and suspension of disbelief is king. Don't think about it, even Back to the Future gets kinda screwy with the plot in some spots because of the time travel.

#39 Edited by NTM (7286 posts) -

http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/The_Terminator_timeline

I don't think it's so much as fucked up as it is interesting. There's not really anything in it that's fucked up, it's just unexplained. I don't think it can be explained. I mean, what would have to happen first, the future where John sends back Kyle, or the past where Kyle impregnates Sarah to give birth to the future resistance leader (which is as we know it, John Conner)? There's no alternate universe that it started out with another father, it's always Kyle Reese sent back in time, but what are the alternatives? That's left up to the viewer to think of.

#40 Posted by Contrarian (1143 posts) -

Time is a loop. Whatever you do to the timeline becomes the timeline. Whatever you do is what you were going to do anyway, nothing changes. It is not variable. You can't change time.

How do I know this? I am from the future, along with all my Australian and New Zealand friends. It is Sunday and I am feeling fine.

#41 Edited by BirdkeeperDan (400 posts) -

This seems pretty similiar to all time travel plotholes. You can't travel back in time so don't waste time thinking about it. As far as I understand it Multiverse theory is some bullshit scientists developed to explain why all the unexplained physical constants are at the percise values that enable more complicated atoms can be created in stars with nuclear fusion. This is based on absolutely no observations so it's not really a scientific theory in my opinion.

#42 Posted by Hunkulese (2656 posts) -

Any story with time travel can't stand up if you analyze it. Multiple universes and timelines is the easiest way to explain things but if you want to believe in a single timeline then you have to accept all four movies of having happened. The only way the first movies can happen is if there is a future war.

#43 Posted by bartok (2430 posts) -

If your wondering why John Conner still exist and other science facts.  Just remember it's a movie and you really should just relax.

#44 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@Village_Guy said:

The story of any of the Terminator movies never made sense, as soon as you introduce time travel into a story, plotholes will appear and suspension of disbelief is king. Don't think about it, even Back to the Future gets kinda screwy with the plot in some spots because of the time travel.

That is true... in the third movie there are TWO deloreans stuck in the past. They could have easily fixed the delorean with the other and just include a list of part/stuff in order to make parts later on... So yeah... they could have prevented that train shit if they were willing to dare time and paradox's!

#45 Posted by JCGamer (659 posts) -

And the fact that John Conner is supposed to be 10 years old in that movie.

#46 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

@bartok said:

If your wondering why John Conner still exist and other science facts. Just remember it's a movie and you really should just relax.

Robot Rollcall?

#47 Posted by iam3green (14390 posts) -

i think you're looking at this the different way.

i never got into the show.

#48 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7056 posts) -
@Dagbiker

@bartok said:

If your wondering why John Conner still exist and other science facts. Just remember it's a movie and you really should just relax.

Robot Rollcall?

Cambot! Gypsy! Tom Servo! Croooooooow!