I'm Christian, unless you're gay

This is sort of relevant to my posting history down here in the deepest recesses of Giant Bomb. I read this and was awestruck by how well formulated and... pure the message is. I've been going about this the wrong way. Whether being gay is a choice or not, the point of the matter is it's irrelevant. We are all just people, and we should respect each other as such.

I really encourage you to read this and spread it. If one person can change his position, it would be worth it.

I'm Christian, unless you're gay

Make sure you read the follow-up post with some of the replies the writer received as well. They are really powerful.

I'm not going to argue the right or wrongs of homosexuality in this thread, that is not the purpose. The purpose is to try to spread some acceptance of people different from you and me. Do post your reactions though, that would be interesting to read.

If you didn't bother clicking the link and reading it, please don't bother replying either. I don't want to see any "I didn't read it but blah..."-posts.

Yeah, please do read more because this is not about religion at its core. There is no need to be defensive.

@Anund: Page 1, complaints about Westboro.

Page 2, Complaints about various religions. In doing so I believe he is trying, rather pathetically, to show some form of hypocrisy on their part or some other banal shit.

It isn't about religion you say?

Here is what I say.

Tolerate before telling others to be tolerant.

It is essentially, at the core, a guy complaining that people don't accept his gay friend. Somehow, this turns into something bigger regarding intolerance and disliking people who are different.

Cliche. Seen it so many times before. The pictures of happy people meant to contrast the overly melodramatic emotive language accentuating the tale of the struggling homosexual who no one accepts. He can't be happy due to the intolerance of religious people and those who are ignorant. He is different and unaccepted. Woe is he. Right down to the desperate grabs for attention and sympathy the author makes when he talks about everyone leaving his friend when they hear. I half expected to read "he sat alone, in the dark room, nobody loved him, he wept bitterly because all of his friends left him due to his sexuality". In fact, I read something like that in there I believe.

This is funny because it is not true unless you're looking at teenagers (even then) or ignoramuses, which is essentially what he is calling anyone who disagrees with the homosexual lifestyle.

I'm not trying to turn this into a religious debate but goodness, did this guy really think that he could convince people to side with him with that post?

I can't stand people who whine about not being accepted because they are "different" because I find it to be a falsehood. He is no longer the pariah due to his sexuality that the article so desperately tries and fails to portray him as.

Maybe if he stopped making a big deal about it and looked for people that were "tolerant" of him instead of lamenting over losing people on facebook and dwelling on those who allegedly aren't, he wouldn't have as much to complain about.

I suspect someone will respond attacking Christianity or something along those lines.

Also, before people start stating I am "intolerant", I can assure you that I am not. I simply loathe people who exploit their "tragedies" in an attempt to make commentary on a bigger picture. It is not done well here, it comes off as preachy, overly melodramatic and his argument was lazily constructed. Relying on the old "Westboro" and "God hates gays" arguments that have been proven wrong time and again. Then he tries to state that people who are "different" are not accepted (Cue eye roll).

:D

Edit: deleted my other post and combined it with this one to save space so I don't have to keep looking back at my posts to see what people are responding to.

Lol, Sweater bro and hugging girl on page three look like rapists.

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

@GunslingerPanda said:

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

Lol

@Axxol said:

@GunslingerPanda said:

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

Lol

Stabbed... with love.

It started out all right but then it became obnoxious and preachy.

@crusader8463 said:

@Axxol said:

@GunslingerPanda said:

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

Lol

Stabbed... with love.

Stabbed by love duuude :P

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Anund:

"God hates homosexuals" or "Christians believe God hates homosexuals" or some such jargon does not coincide with any of the Christian beliefs I have heard. In fact, "Love thy neighbor" springs to mind. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". There are more, God does not hate human beings, nor does he hate individuals. I'll take the guy seriously when he doesn't fall into the category of "hey gaiz guess what? (insert ignorant statement that shows lack of understanding regarding Christian teaching towards homosexuality here)".

Maybe I missed something cause it looked like there was a conversation that got edited or deleted here, but didn't the dude writing that piece totally agree with what you said here? On page two? I don't get it?

admittedly I started skimming it halfways through because preachiness but it seemed pretty consistent with the whole "hating is wrong".

@PeasantAbuse said:

Lol, Sweater bro and hugging girl on page three look like rapists.

Lol, I was thinking the same exact thing!

There are churches that have gay pastors. Cant get much more "accepting" than that. I don't get annoyed very easily but after reading the first few paragraphs I felt like kicking a chicken. See how you make me feel!

The guy is just preaching to love one another regardless of our differences, seems like a good message to me.

I'm going to come off sounding REALLY bad by bringing this up, but didn't he mention he lived in Utah? Like, Mormon-heavy Utah? Look, I'm REALLY not wanting to sound anti-religion here, but what I'm perceiving here is that the "extreme" situation with his homosexual friend is partly caused by the orthodox practices of the Mormon church. While the country still has a fairly negative outlook on gays and gay marriage (or at least, I myself have perceived this outlook, granted I live in conservative Oklahoma) I get the impression that most of the christian churches have become fairly more tolerant (hate using that word) of the gay community.

tl;dr version: 
 
be nice to everyone.

@TheFreeMan: This is the reason I'm not even bothering replying to Still_I_Cry... I specifically asked people to read before posting. He read the first two sentences, then wrote an essay.

@Anund said:

@TheFreeMan: This is the reason I'm not even bothering replying to Still_I_Cry... I specifically asked people to read before posting. He read the first two sentences, then wrote an essay.

Actually, I read up to and part of page 2.

So before assuming I barely read the thing did you actually read my entire post?

@TheFreeMan said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Anund:

"God hates homosexuals" or "Christians believe God hates homosexuals" or some such jargon does not coincide with any of the Christian beliefs I have heard. In fact, "Love thy neighbor" springs to mind. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". There are more, God does not hate human beings, nor does he hate individuals. I'll take the guy seriously when he doesn't fall into the category of "hey gaiz guess what? (insert ignorant statement that shows lack of understanding regarding Christian teaching towards homosexuality here)".

Maybe I missed something cause it looked like there was a conversation that got edited or deleted here, but didn't the dude writing that piece totally agree with what you said here? On page two? I don't get it?

admittedly I started skimming it halfways through because preachiness but it seemed pretty consistent with the whole "hating is wrong".

He was using the statements "God hates gays" etc as a basis for showing how religions are intolerant or rather, religious people are intolerant (at least that is what I believe he was stating and I only started skimming at about halfway through the second page). I may go look at it again, if that isn't what he was saying, then sorry for rushing to conclusions.

Overall though, the main point of the block you quoted was to point out that the "God hates x people" statement is an incorrect one due to the reasons I stated above.

im atheists and find it ludicrous that we still give any credence what so ever to these ancient desert fairy tales.

@crusader8463 said:

@Axxol said:

@GunslingerPanda said:

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

Lol

Stabbed... with love.

Stabbed with a meat sword?

@Vodun said:

@crusader8463 said:

@Axxol said:

@GunslingerPanda said:

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

Lol

Stabbed... with love.

Stabbed with a meat sword?

You bigot religious fanatic intolerant person!

Except for how preachy and long-winded this is, he has a fairly solid message.  

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Vodun said:

@crusader8463 said:

@Axxol said:

@GunslingerPanda said:

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

Lol

Stabbed... with love.

Stabbed with a meat sword?

You bigot religious fanatic intolerant person!

Koscher meat sword?

@Vodun said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Vodun said:

@crusader8463 said:

@Axxol said:

@GunslingerPanda said:

Well, that was pretentious.

That man can't write for shit; I have no idea what point he was trying to make. Also please don't go around putting an arm around every homeless person you find after reading this. You'll probably get stabbed.

Lol

Stabbed... with love.

Stabbed with a meat sword?

You bigot religious fanatic intolerant person!

Koscher meat sword?

You Anti-Semitic bigot intolerant atheist!

Ok, I'll stop :P

@Still_I_Cry: Hah, yeah better to stop derailment in time =P

that was gay

I'm Christian and i don't hate gays. I can never understand why a dude would want to exchange vagina for penis, but i don't hate him.

@jetsetwillie said:

im atheists and find it ludicrous that we still give any credence what so ever to these ancient desert fairy tales.

this. Any form of indoctrination will produce the kind of confusion and angst which the author says he had for 12 years. No religious instruction until 12-13 would be great.

People that get all up in arms over something that has absolutely zero impact on them are idiots. I will never be able to understand why people hate someone just because they are gay or why some people are so vehemently opposed to the idea of gay marriage.

As my avatar says, "Be excellent to each other."

@Still_I_Cry: I agree with just about everything you said. I've never met a conservative Christian who treated gay people badly at all (and trust me when I say I've spent most of my life surrounded by conservative Christians). A lot of it is cultural misapprehension. Like the idea still popular in culture that if a teenage girl announces to her conservative parents that she's pregnant that they're going to kick her out of the house. Perhaps this was true back in the 50s or 60s (although people I know of that age say it was mostly a myth, even back then). It's mostly believed because people want to believe it. Truth is, most religious people don't hate gay people or even treat them badly. They just don't like their lifestyle. The attitude is, in fact, similar to how most secular gay people think of religious people: they don't hate them, they just don't like how they live their lives.

And I say this as a libertarian, agnostic, gay-marriage-supporting, evolution-believing person. The article came off as preachy and trying not to sound intolerant, but the writer clearly didn't realize their underlying intolerance was showing the entire time. Granted, it's impossible for most people to talk about these things. They've taken sides, and when people take sides it becomes very difficult not to buy into the lies each side tells themselves about their opponents. Homosexuality isn't going to destroy our culture, and religious people (even those who disagree with gay marriage and who think homosexuality is immoral) don't hate gay people. If everyone would disinvest their emotions a bit on the issue, we'd all be better off.

I wonder if he lost people on Facebook because he was gay, or because he was pushing his views on everyone else. I had a similar experience, wanting to unfriend someone on Facebook for posting rants about vaccines every other day. I wouldn't care if they believed such things on their own, but being irritating about it ... I can see unfriending someone over it. I've even done it a few times to people who get overly political on Facebook.

I enjoyed the article well enough. It expressed a lot of important feelings that I would find hard to express on the same subject. It is important to be nice to everyone. You never know when you will be in a position where you need help. How can you go for help when you have burned all of the bridges around you? It just makes sense to be nice to people. Even if you never get anything tangible back from it, it is important to be nice and tolerant of others......except the person who cuts you off in traffic. That person gets to watch me scream, yell, and gnash my teeth at them from the sanctity of my car.

Nice read, nothing to add.

@haggis said:

@Still_I_Cry: The attitude is, in fact, similar to how most secular gay people think of religious people: they don't hate them, they just don't like how they live their lives.\

Glad I'm not the only one to find fault with the way it was written.

It may be just the gays that I have met but in discussing religion, they all vehemently attacked it. It was openly mocked as well in Gay Pride parades in NYC.

I'm not saying all gays are like that though, just the ones I have come in contact with (for the most part). I know a gay dude on XBL and I have no issues with him regarding religion.

I really have no issue with what they do in the privacy of their own homes, the problems start when they try and force their beliefs down my throat.

Also, looking at the comments from other Atheists in this thread. Intolerance.

It is not imperative one be religious to oppose gay marriage by the way. There are Atheists that oppose it as well I'm sure.

no way a dude can just like another dude. satan gone and messed with his head.

@EdIsCool said:

@jetsetwillie said:

im atheists and find it ludicrous that we still give any credence what so ever to these ancient desert fairy tales.

this. Any form of indoctrination will produce the kind of confusion and angst which the author says he had for 12 years. No religious instruction until 12-13 would be great.

i think until 18. it should be an adult decision. keep those kids away from the clergy

@Still_I_Cry: There are absolutely atheists who oppose it, but that's because atheism isn't really signified by any dogma. It's the lack of a belief in a deity, there's NO dogma tied to it besides that. So atheists run the gamut really, whenever anyone (not saying you are, just in general) tries to attach some kind of value or belief structure to atheism...it just falls flat. Living in an almost entirely secular country where the default position is atheism, I still see a lot opposed to gay marriage or homosexuality.

But yeah, I pretty much agree with you on the way the article was written for the most part. Though I may disagree on some points here or there, like how Westboro is a cult and not truly Christian. That just strikes me as a 'no true scotsman' type argument, how would you propose to differentiate between a religion and a cult? Wouldn't a cult be a subset? Or I am just totally misunderstanding you. There are also some parts of the bible or qur'an that do indeed come across pretty strongly as anti-homosexual, depending on interpretation. Not agreeing with said interpretation, but it'd be the basis for why some sects of christianity are more anti-homosexual than others.

Outside of nitpicky details though that are entirely tangential (just a point of curiosity for me) I agree that his writing just comes across as really preachy.

@Still_I_Cry: @haggis:

Half of the posts in this thread are extremely disappointing. Especially the ones commenting on the article without reading it in full. It may be preachy but the message needs to get out, there are kids killing themselves because everyone around them is bullying them into depression, that's just plain wrong and it needs to change. You completely undermine the argument be calling it "too preachy".

@RollingZeppelin said:

@Still_I_Cry: @haggis:

Half of the posts in this thread are extremely disappointing. Especially the ones commenting on the article without reading it in full. It may be preachy but the message needs to get out, there are kids killing themselves because everyone around them is bullying them into depression, that's just plain wrong and it needs to change. You completely undermine the argument be calling it "too preachy".

It is too preachy. If you are going to try and convince people of your point you should not be undermining their intelligence in the process. Furthermore, you essentially stated that the article is long-winded and pointless due to the fact that bullying is already a known issue in schools and people are trying to take actions to diminish it at present anyway. Lastly, he was using the example of his gay friend in order to make it appear as if his friend is being bullied because of his sexuality and yet the article appears to be vague in regard to why people removed him on FB and so forth. The article author then attempts to create a direct parallel between the fact that his frined is homosexual and the fact that large amounts of people stopped talking to him. I find the preposterous and nonsensical due to the fact that yeah, maybe some, a small portion, of people removed him on FB for that reason, although I doubt the huge swathes of people removing him (supposedly) is due to the fact that he is gay. I am led to believe there are more reasons than simply that one reason due to the fact that homosexuality is generally an accepted thing in today's society.

@Addfwyn said:

@Still_I_Cry: There are absolutely atheists who oppose it, but that's because atheism isn't really signified by any dogma. It's the lack of a belief in a deity, there's NO dogma tied to it besides that. So atheists run the gamut really, whenever anyone (not saying you are, just in general) tries to attach some kind of value or belief structure to atheism...it just falls flat. Living in an almost entirely secular country where the default position is atheism, I still see a lot opposed to gay marriage or homosexuality.

But yeah, I pretty much agree with you on the way the article was written for the most part. Though I may disagree on some points here or there, like how Westboro is a cult and not truly Christian. That just strikes me as a 'no true scotsman' type argument, how would you propose to differentiate between a religion and a cult? Wouldn't a cult be a subset? Or I am just totally misunderstanding you. There are also some parts of the bible or qur'an that do indeed come across pretty strongly as anti-homosexual, depending on interpretation. Not agreeing with said interpretation, but it'd be the basis for why some sects of christianity are more anti-homosexual than others.

Outside of nitpicky details though that are entirely tangential (just a point of curiosity for me) I agree that his writing just comes across as really preachy.

I wasn't trying to attach any set of beliefs to atheists. Quite the opposite. The posters that my response was directed at seemed to think that only religious people hate atheists.

Regarding Westboro:

"The WBC is not affiliated with any known Baptist conventions or associations."

"The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an independent Baptist church known for its extreme stance against homosexuality and its protest activities, which include picketing funerals and desecrating the American flag."

Perhaps my statement that they aren't Christian was too strong. Yet, they appear to condemn everyone to Hell unless they are Westboro members. I don't know, I wouldn't consider their beliefs Christian nor would I consider their actions Christian. I think my primary point was that people use them as a means of finding an angle to attack Christians at large, which is quite lazy and ineffective. You cannot base an argument against an entire group based on a cult, which is not the same as a religion, "The word cult in current popular usage usually refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult. Whereas a religion is commonly defined as, Religion is a collection of cultural systems, belief systems, and worldviews that establishes symbols that relate humanity to spirituality and, sometimes, to moral values" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion. So I think it is unfair to consider Westboro a Christian sect, seeing as they go against the very basic teachings of what God is as a Supernatural Being.

At the most basic level Christian teachings state that God is a benevolent being. This means that he cannot hate human beings because it contradicts his nature Westboro states that God hates and that they are the personification of his hatred on Earth, which completely contradicts the basis of Christian beliefs regarding God. Westoboro's beliefs towards Christ are also abnormal, bizarre and self-serving. Technically, I suppose you could call them Christians, though I would certainly not use them as the structure or angle in an argument as the man in the article did. As I said, it is lazy because he is choosing an extreme example of an outer organization that most, if not all other Christians, consider Non-Christian and trying to use this weak basis as the foundation for his argument in an attempt to garner sympathy for his case. This shows ignorance in regard to both what Westboro actually believes and how far away from the actual teachings of Christianity they are.

They also don't seem to want to be affiliated with Christians.

"The Westboro Baptist Church considers membership in most religious groups, such as the Roman Catholic Church or Islam, as akin to devil worship, and states these other churches to be "Satanic frauds preaching Arminian lies. All non-Christian entities, non-Protestant Christian churches, and all Protestant Christian churches that do not strongly condemn homosexuality are said to be sending their members to Hell."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church#Views_on_religions

Isn't hating gays a pretty Christian thing to do?

@Still_I_Cry said:

@TheFreeMan said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Anund:

"God hates homosexuals" or "Christians believe God hates homosexuals" or some such jargon does not coincide with any of the Christian beliefs I have heard. In fact, "Love thy neighbor" springs to mind. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". There are more, God does not hate human beings, nor does he hate individuals. I'll take the guy seriously when he doesn't fall into the category of "hey gaiz guess what? (insert ignorant statement that shows lack of understanding regarding Christian teaching towards homosexuality here)".

Maybe I missed something cause it looked like there was a conversation that got edited or deleted here, but didn't the dude writing that piece totally agree with what you said here? On page two? I don't get it?

admittedly I started skimming it halfways through because preachiness but it seemed pretty consistent with the whole "hating is wrong".

He was using the statements "God hates gays" etc as a basis for showing how religions are intolerant or rather, religious people are intolerant (at least that is what I believe he was stating and I only started skimming at about halfway through the second page). I may go look at it again, if that isn't what he was saying, then sorry for rushing to conclusions.

Overall though, the main point of the block you quoted was to point out that the "God hates x people" statement is an incorrect one due to the reasons I stated above.

Well, this was what I was talking about on page 2:

This isn’t just a Utah phenomenon. I’ve lived outside of this place. I’ve worked outside of this place. It was just as bad in Denver. It was just as bad in California. I see it on blogs. I hear it on television shows and radio programs. I hear it around my own family’s dinner table from time to time. Usually said so passively, so sneakily, and so “righteously.”
From Christians.
From Buddhists.
From Hindus.
From Muslims.
From Jews.
“God hates fags.” “God hates addicts.” “God hates people who shop at Salvation Army.” “God hates people that aren’t just like me.”
People may not be holding up picket signs and marching around in front of television cameras but… come on. Why is it that so many incredible people who have certain struggles, problems, or their own beliefs of what is right and wrong feel so hated? Why do they feel so judged? Why do they feel so… loathed? What undeniable truth must we all eventually admit to ourselves when such is the case?
Now, I’m not religious. I’m also not gay. But I’ll tell you right now that I’ve sought out religion. I’ve looked for what I believe truth to be. For years I studied, trying to find “it”. Every major religion had good selling points. Every major religion, if I rewound far enough, had some pretty incredible base teachings from some pretty incredible individuals.
Check this out, and feel free to correct me if I get this wrong…
According to Christians, Jesus taught a couple of interesting things. First, “love one another.” Second, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” (“Her” being a woman who cheated on her man.)
According to Buddhists, Buddha taught a couple of thought-provoking things. First, “Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.” Second, “Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.”
According to Hindus, a couple of fascinating teachings come to mind. First, “Do not get angry or harm any living creature, but be compassionate and gentle; show good will to all.” (Krishna) Second, “Love means giving selflessly, excluding none and including all.” (Rama)
According to Muslims, Muhammad taught a couple interesting things as well. First, “A true Muslim is the one who does not defame or abuse others; but the truly righteous becomes a refuge for humankind, their lives and their properties.” Second, “Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.”
According to Judaism, their scriptures teach a couple remarkable things. First, “Love your neighbor like yourself.” Second, “Examine the contents, not the bottle.”
The greatest spiritual leaders in history have all preached love for others as the basis for all happiness, and never did they accompany such mandates with a list of unlovable actions or deeds. They never said, love everybody except for the gays. Love everybody except for the homeless. Love everybody except for the drug users. Love everybody except for the gang members, or those covered in ink, or the spouse abusers. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody with the exception of the “trailer trash,” those living in poverty, or the illegal immigrants. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody except for our ex-lovers, our lovers’ ex lovers, or our ex-lovers’ lovers. The mandate was pretty damn clear, wasn’t it?
Love others.
Period.

. . . Don’t get me wrong. I know a lot of incredible Christians, too. I know some incredible Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Jews. I know a lot of amazing people, devout in their various religions, who truly love the people around them.
I also know some atheist, agnostic, or religionless people who are absolutely hateful of believers. They loathe their religious counterparts. They love only those who believe (or don’t believe) the same things they do.
In truth, having a religion doesn’t make a person love or not love others. It doesn’t make a person accept or not accept others. It doesn’t make a person befriend or not befriend others.
Being without a religion doesn’t make somebody do or be any of that either.

seems like you two share an opinion!

I think the point he was trying to make was that there are people out there who are intolerant for no good reason, or even in spite of their religion telling them not to be, and that everybody should just quit hating. seems like an alright message to me.

@Anund:

I think it is cool this guy is putting this out there and that you're trying to help spread this belief. I still think that a homosexual will still feel a little weird about this belief because, after all is said and done, the underlying belief behind this is that "homosexuality is wrong BUT we're tolerating it". I know he's using words like 'love' but I still got that feeling from reading what this guy wrote.

That said, I think he's putting out the effort to overcome and side-step that underlying belief just like many of us do for many of our beliefs (though we don't usually wear those beliefs on our sleeves like Christians usually do). So, I think that he is doing something really cool as are you.

@Still_I_Cry: "That only religious people hate homosexuals" I assume you meant homosexuals, and yeah that is most certainly not the case. Though in a twisted sort of way, depending on the religion, it is almost more rational for some of the religious groups to hate homosexuals (depending on the particular religion's belief structure). Those who are more secular rarely can express much of a reason besides simple homophobia, at least from my experiences.

I'm still not sold on Westboro not being a Christian sect. A very extremist one that I wouldn't use as a basis for attacking the religion as a whole, sure, but I'd say that for a lot of other sects as well (though Westboro is by far one of the more extremist). I wouldn't use the Catholic denomination to attack Baptists anymore than I'd want to use fundamentalist evangelicals to attack more moderate protestants. We're arguing semantics there though, because we are both in agreement that they can't be used as representative for the entire religion as a whole. Almost nothing can, there are SO many sects of Christianity that it's generally more productive to ask somebody what their personal beliefs are rather than what sect they are. Even within the same sect, I get very different dogma from different individuals. I'll cede you the semantics though, because my English is pretty poor, so I am sure you have a much better understanding than I do.

So short answer, I agree that they shouldn't be used to straw man the entire religion. No one individual sect can really, unless you're solely discussing the merits of that particular sect, which is a much easier undertaking.

@oatz said:

Isn't hating gays a pretty Christian thing to do?

Not necessarily.

@TheFreeMan said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

@TheFreeMan said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

@Anund:

"God hates homosexuals" or "Christians believe God hates homosexuals" or some such jargon does not coincide with any of the Christian beliefs I have heard. In fact, "Love thy neighbor" springs to mind. "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". There are more, God does not hate human beings, nor does he hate individuals. I'll take the guy seriously when he doesn't fall into the category of "hey gaiz guess what? (insert ignorant statement that shows lack of understanding regarding Christian teaching towards homosexuality here)".

Maybe I missed something cause it looked like there was a conversation that got edited or deleted here, but didn't the dude writing that piece totally agree with what you said here? On page two? I don't get it?

admittedly I started skimming it halfways through because preachiness but it seemed pretty consistent with the whole "hating is wrong".

He was using the statements "God hates gays" etc as a basis for showing how religions are intolerant or rather, religious people are intolerant (at least that is what I believe he was stating and I only started skimming at about halfway through the second page). I may go look at it again, if that isn't what he was saying, then sorry for rushing to conclusions.

Overall though, the main point of the block you quoted was to point out that the "God hates x people" statement is an incorrect one due to the reasons I stated above.

Well, this was what I was talking about on page 2:

This isn’t just a Utah phenomenon. I’ve lived outside of this place. I’ve worked outside of this place. It was just as bad in Denver. It was just as bad in California. I see it on blogs. I hear it on television shows and radio programs. I hear it around my own family’s dinner table from time to time. Usually said so passively, so sneakily, and so “righteously.”
From Christians.
From Buddhists.
From Hindus.
From Muslims.
From Jews.
“God hates fags.” “God hates addicts.” “God hates people who shop at Salvation Army.” “God hates people that aren’t just like me.”
People may not be holding up picket signs and marching around in front of television cameras but… come on. Why is it that so many incredible people who have certain struggles, problems, or their own beliefs of what is right and wrong feel so hated? Why do they feel so judged? Why do they feel so… loathed? What undeniable truth must we all eventually admit to ourselves when such is the case?
Now, I’m not religious. I’m also not gay. But I’ll tell you right now that I’ve sought out religion. I’ve looked for what I believe truth to be. For years I studied, trying to find “it”. Every major religion had good selling points. Every major religion, if I rewound far enough, had some pretty incredible base teachings from some pretty incredible individuals.
Check this out, and feel free to correct me if I get this wrong…
According to Christians, Jesus taught a couple of interesting things. First, “love one another.” Second, “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.” (“Her” being a woman who cheated on her man.)
According to Buddhists, Buddha taught a couple of thought-provoking things. First, “Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.” Second, “Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned.”
According to Hindus, a couple of fascinating teachings come to mind. First, “Do not get angry or harm any living creature, but be compassionate and gentle; show good will to all.” (Krishna) Second, “Love means giving selflessly, excluding none and including all.” (Rama)
According to Muslims, Muhammad taught a couple interesting things as well. First, “A true Muslim is the one who does not defame or abuse others; but the truly righteous becomes a refuge for humankind, their lives and their properties.” Second, “Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.”
According to Judaism, their scriptures teach a couple remarkable things. First, “Love your neighbor like yourself.” Second, “Examine the contents, not the bottle.”
The greatest spiritual leaders in history have all preached love for others as the basis for all happiness, and never did they accompany such mandates with a list of unlovable actions or deeds. They never said, love everybody except for the gays. Love everybody except for the homeless. Love everybody except for the drug users. Love everybody except for the gang members, or those covered in ink, or the spouse abusers. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody with the exception of the “trailer trash,” those living in poverty, or the illegal immigrants. They didn’t tell us it was okay to love everybody except for our ex-lovers, our lovers’ ex lovers, or our ex-lovers’ lovers. The mandate was pretty damn clear, wasn’t it?
Love others.
Period.

. . . Don’t get me wrong. I know a lot of incredible Christians, too. I know some incredible Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Jews. I know a lot of amazing people, devout in their various religions, who truly love the people around them.
I also know some atheist, agnostic, or religionless people who are absolutely hateful of believers. They loathe their religious counterparts. They love only those who believe (or don’t believe) the same things they do.
In truth, having a religion doesn’t make a person love or not love others. It doesn’t make a person accept or not accept others. It doesn’t make a person befriend or not befriend others.
Being without a religion doesn’t make somebody do or be any of that either.

seems like you two share an opinion!

I think the point he was trying to make was that there are people out there who are intolerant for no good reason, or even in spite of their religion telling them not to be, and that everybody should just quit hating. seems like an alright message to me.

So he's cherry picking one case from each religion in order to find things that support his claims. Great.

It does not change the fact that he is making broad statements about religious people. He tries to counter these statements by claiming ,"I know a lot of incredible Christians, too. I know some incredible Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Jews. I know a lot of amazing people, devout in their various religions, who truly love the people around them".

People generally try to negate or lessen their prior claims by stating things like that.

Sure, love everybody. That doesn't really work in practice though. I also don't share that opinion completely.

@Addfwyn said:

@Still_I_Cry: "That only religious people hate homosexuals" I assume you meant homosexuals, and yeah that is most certainly not the case. Though in a twisted sort of way, depending on the religion, it is almost more rational for some of the religious groups to hate homosexuals (depending on the particular religion's belief structure). Those who are more secular rarely can express much of a reason besides simple homophobia, at least from my experiences.

I'm still not sold on Westboro not being a Christian sect. A very extremist one that I wouldn't use as a basis for attacking the religion as a whole, sure, but I'd say that for a lot of other sects as well (though Westboro is by far one of the more extremist). I wouldn't use the Catholic denomination to attack Baptists anymore than I'd want to use fundamentalist evangelicals to attack more moderate protestants. We're arguing semantics there though, because we are both in agreement that they can't be used as representative for the entire religion as a whole. Almost nothing can, there are SO many sects of Christianity that it's generally more productive to ask somebody what their personal beliefs are rather than what sect they are. Even within the same sect, I get very different dogma from different individuals. I'll cede you the semantics though, because my English is pretty poor, so I am sure you have a much better understanding than I do.

So short answer, I agree that they shouldn't be used to straw man the entire religion. No one individual sect can really, unless you're solely discussing the merits of that particular sect, which is a much easier undertaking.

To your first paragraph: Sure, I agree some people most likely use religion as a crutch or support for their hatred. Religion in and of itself should not be blamed for that (generally speaking).

I still find them to be more cult-like but eh :P

Also, support for my statement regarding Atheists here:

Post by JasonR86:

" many of us do for many of our beliefs (though we don't usually wear those beliefs on our sleeves like Christians usually do)."

These generalizations are what I find aggravating, which is the only reason I really bothered responding to this thread at all.

Is your basis for this statement reliant on Jehova's Witnesses or Westboro?

@Still_I_Cry said:

So he's cherry picking one case from each religion in order to find things that support his claims. Great.

It does not change the fact that he is making broad statements about religious people. He tries to counter these statements by claiming ,"I know a lot of incredible Christians, too. I know some incredible Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Jews. I know a lot of amazing people, devout in their various religions, who truly love the people around them".

People generally try to negate or lessen their prior claims by stating things like that.

Sure, love everybody. That doesn't really work in practice though. I also don't share that opinion completely.

Isn't the cherry picking exactly what you did in your original post, except it was just for Christianity? I still don't get it What do you mean? Are you talking about when he posts all the "love stuff" messages from various religions?

He's making broad statements about religious people that bully other people, sure, but I don't think he's making broad statements about religious people in general. That's why he clarified with the "I know a lot of incredible [religious persons]" bit - to show that he's only talking about the crazy ones that hate. At least, that's what I think. Maybe I'm missing something.

It's fine if you disagree with his message.

@Addfwyn said:

Though I may disagree on some points here or there, like how Westboro is a cult and not truly Christian. That just strikes me as a 'no true scotsman' type argument, how would you propose to differentiate between a religion and a cult? Wouldn't a cult be a subset? Or I am just totally misunderstanding you.

The only members of his church are his family. There are no outside members. Fred Phelps strictly controls them. He's not affiliated with any Christian denomination. Sociologists have a fairly clear definition of what constitutes a cult as opposed to a mainstream religious sect, and Westboro fits that definition like a glove. A quick google search on Ernst Troelstch should give you a primer on what differentiates churches from cults.

@RollingZeppelin said:

@Still_I_Cry: @haggis:

Half of the posts in this thread are extremely disappointing. Especially the ones commenting on the article without reading it in full. It may be preachy but the message needs to get out, there are kids killing themselves because everyone around them is bullying them into depression, that's just plain wrong and it needs to change. You completely undermine the argument be calling it "too preachy".

Well, I did read it in full. I wouldn't have commented at all if I hadn't. The problem with it being preachy is that it's predicated on not being preachy. It loses its moral high ground when it starts sounding like every other criticism of churches out there and by focusing on a fringe group rather than actual religious people. I think the writing undermines itself. It's preaching to the choir. Bullying of gay youth may well be a problem (I haven't looked at any statistics) but I'm not sure it has anything to do with religion. A friend of mine who is gay has talked about being bullied back in the 90s, and the people doing it weren't doing it because they were religious. They were just pricks. I doubt any of them went to church. In fact, I'd be surprised if many doing the bullying were members of church-going families. Again, I haven't seen any statistics.

But I'm also not one to not call things as I see them just because it might undermine a favorable argument. The article is preachy and ineffective. I could lie and say it isn't, but what good does that do? I don't believe in lying for the good of a cause.

@punpun said:

@haggis: Yeah from my experience, rather than "hating them/treating them badly", most Christians only look down on/feel pity for gays, for they have been corrupted by the devil.

Most Christians I know wouldn't put it that way. They don't look down on gay people. The most common sentiment is that they're sinning like everyone else does, but they've convinced themselves that they aren't. From the Christian's perspective, it's a source of inner conflict that fuels self-destructive behavior and more sin, all signs of being separated from God. But talk to them more deeply about it and they'll tell you that it's the same with any other sin people are in denial about, whether adultery, lying, stealing, etc. But from a theological point of view, homosexuality isn't any different from any other sin. What gets them in a fit is being forced to say that it isn't sin, through supporting gay marriage. That's one reason they get upset about gay marriage. It's like they're being asked to say that homosexuality isn't a sin.

Honestly, I think the solution to that is just to get government out of marriage altogether. Why do I need the government's permission to get married? It's none of their business. It's also worth noting that gay people can get married if they want, and have always been allowed to: they can go to any church that performs such unions and go right ahead and have their ceremony. The question over gay marriage isn't about marriage per se, it's about access to government benefits.

But now I've written a book. I spent a lot of time working with people on both sides of this issue, both in DC and out, and I've never been so frustrated with the complete lack of understanding on both sides of an issue. I see where both sides are coming from, and it pisses me off that it is never really going to be resolved.

@TheFreeMan said:

@Still_I_Cry said:

So he's cherry picking one case from each religion in order to find things that support his claims. Great.

It does not change the fact that he is making broad statements about religious people. He tries to counter these statements by claiming ,"I know a lot of incredible Christians, too. I know some incredible Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Jews. I know a lot of amazing people, devout in their various religions, who truly love the people around them".

People generally try to negate or lessen their prior claims by stating things like that.

Sure, love everybody. That doesn't really work in practice though. I also don't share that opinion completely.

Isn't the cherry picking exactly what you did in your original post, except it was just for Christianity? I still don't get it What do you mean? Are you talking about when he posts all the "love stuff" messages from various religions?

He's making broad statements about religious people that bully other people, sure, but I don't think he's making broad statements about religious people in general. That's why he clarified with the "I know a lot of incredible [religious persons]" bit - to show that he's only talking about the crazy ones that hate. At least, that's what I think. Maybe I'm missing something.

It's fine if you disagree with his message.

No, I was not cherry picking. Christianity as a whole teaches primarily, love thy neighbor etc.

He chose the example from Christianity because it supported his claim. He could have just as easily cited "Love thy neighbor" or one of the many other statements. The reason he picked the "let he who is without sin" statement is because that section was about the hypocrisy of religious people who hate gays. He picked an extreme case in the Bible in order to add weight to his claim.

Thus, cherry picking.

TIL to be nice to people.

@oatz said:

Isn't hating gays a pretty Christian thing to do?

No. Even for the most theologically conservative Christians, there is a theological separation of sin and the individual created by Christ's sacrifice. It may be an oversimplified cliche, but "hate the sin, love the sinner" is actually a fair representation of what Christians believe. Outright hatred of people is a sin, even if those people are gay. I've never met a Christian who claimed otherwise. Christians who actively hate gay people are sinning in the process of doing so. At least, that's what I've been told by Baptists, Methodists, Catholics, Orthodox, Episcopalians, Evangelicals, and Anabaptists. That's about 99% of Christians, so unless I'm missing someone ... Strange, it's one of the few areas of commonality between all of these denominations.

Honestly, I find all this pretty silly. It doesn't much matter to me what people do with their bodies. As Thomas Jefferson said, "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."