#151 Posted by deadmoscow (261 posts) -

Rape apologists ITT. Is this...Reddit? Did I walk into Reddit?

#152 Posted by Slag (4008 posts) -

@jasonr86:

I apologize, I was trying to be careful with my word choice to avoid putting words in your mouth. I do not think you are a bad person and was not attempting to portray you as one. Since it's your opinion, I'll take your word for it that I got it wrong.

I went back edited the post to something I don't think can be misconstrued as your viewpoint. Let me know if it works better for you.

Obviously I can't fix anything that quotes the old post, but figured I'd meet you halfway as best I could.

I'll respond to your other arguments in a minute but just wanted to let you I did that ASAP so you could edit it out of yours (that quoted it as well) if you wanted.

#153 Edited by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

Brian Banks people, after that I really can't fucking tell who's right or wrong. He too was convicted of rape in a court of law and if a jury finds someone guilty... well fuck, those 12 people must be infallible.

#154 Posted by JasonR86 (9608 posts) -

@slag said:

@jasonr86:

I apologize, I was trying to be careful with my word choice to avoid putting words in your mouth. I do not think you are a bad person and was not attempting to portray you as one. Since it's your opinion, I'll take your word for it that I got it wrong.

I went back edited the post to something I don't think can be misconstrued as your viewpoint. Let me know if it works better for you.

Obviously I can't fix anything that quotes the old post, but figured I'd meet you halfway as best I could.

I'll respond to your other arguments in a minute but just wanted to let you I did that ASAP so you could edit it out of yours (that quoted it as well) if you wanted.

It's ok dude. This is a really hard issue to talk about let alone try to write about online. I think if we were all in person we would all be able to fully understand where we're all coming from and would be ok with where we all stand.

#155 Edited by Ares42 (2576 posts) -

Do people just not agree with the idea of a juvenile court ? The entire construct of a seperate legal system is specifically for cases like this. The point people are making is that there is a difference of responsibility between minors and adults. That's not to say that minors should have a free ride, but the consequences should be different. There is a reason why this was a juvenile court case, which seems lost on a lot of people in here.

Online
#156 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3557 posts) -

@ares42 said:

Do people just not agree with the idea of a juvenile court ? The entire construct of a seperate legal system is specifically for cases like this. The point people are making is that there is a difference of responsibility between kids and adults. That's not to say that kids should have a free ride, but the consequences should be different. There is a reason why this was a juvenile court case, which seems lost on a lot of people in here.

I'm not watching the video that Anonymous apparently obtained--because I don't know what exactly it shows, and I'm not about to watch potentially uncensored video of a naked minor--but if what was said is true, and these two really did sodomize and urinate on her, then I've basically lost all possible sympathy for either of them.

Put them both away until 21, and give them both life-long status as sex offenders.

#157 Edited by Stonyman65 (2591 posts) -

You guys are really surprised by this?

I stopped watching CNN, MSNBC, CBS, ABC, FOX and HLN years ago.

Why? Because of bullshit like this. It's not news-journalism anymore, it's agenda and sensationalism.

Turn off the news and start thinking for yourself. Don't just believe something because the "talking heads" in the media want you to.

#158 Edited by Stonyman65 (2591 posts) -

Lets all hope those fuckers get what's coming to them in jail.

I heard Big Bubba was looking for a new wife AND a new girlfriend.

Edit: is there a cool-down period between posts now? I can't reply to anything else in this thread. I'll try a little later.

#159 Edited by dgtlty (153 posts) -

@slag Thank you for expressing the most important opinion in this thread, you summarised my feelings exactly.

@haffy said:

I'm sorry that you're such a boring fuck and don't understand what it's like to be young drunk and around women.

#160 Edited by mikethekilla (328 posts) -

I find it real hard (impossible) to feel sorry a rapist and ones dumb enough to snitch on themselves at that.

#161 Edited by SlashDance (1804 posts) -

Did that guy really say "I didn't mean to do it" in front of the victim ? Yeaaaaaah, fuck him.

#162 Edited by Stonyman65 (2591 posts) -

I find it real hard (impossible) to feel sorry a rapist and ones dumb enough to snitch on themselves at that.

Well, if they were smart they probably wouldn't have been in that situation to begin with.

When you are at a party and see a girl drink until she passes out and is unresponsive, the first thought isn't "rape that bitch", it should be "let's get her to a hospital just in case she goes into alcoholic shock"

They are damn lucky she didn't die in the process.

I don't care how drunk you are, there is no excuse for what happened there. The word disgusting can't even begin to describe what happened, and worse yet how the community (and the news media, to an extent) treated the situation.

#163 Posted by Rowr (5480 posts) -
@aiurflux said:

@animasta: Studies have shown that the majority of sexual offenders turn into repeat offenders. 5.3% turn into repeat sexual offenders but 87% commit other offenses. Fact is that we like to think the prison system is used to rehabilitate people when in reality they turn into massive recruitment centers for organized crime or at the very least places to learn or hone criminal skills. So no, I don't have to have faith in them because they're teenagers. Statistically speaking of course. And like somebody said dumb teenagers steal, fight, vandalize. They don't rape a girl (finger or otherwise it's still rape) and take photographic and video evidence or the whole rape throughout the night.

@video_game_king: No. But it couldn't hurt at this point. People that do these heinous acts, again statistically speaking, are beyond redemption for any hope of becoming productive members of society. Thus then they become a burden on society. Society shouldn't be forced to carry such burdens.

@rowr: Yeah. Because being drunk, or possibly even roofied, really means that she wanted to be fingered and have photos and videos of it all taken while she was completely unconscious. You're right. It's obviously her fault. How could I be so preposterous.

Jesus fucking Christ. Maybe you, and apparently several other people in this thread, should do some research about something before commenting about it with such stupidity and blatant ignorance. An apologist for a pair of rapists that raped a 16 year old. Congrats. I've now seen rock bottom.

Link for said "statistics". Just a quick Google search, feel free to find anything else on it if you want.

The only way this poor girl was going to get any sympathy from CNN was to parade her around and show her tears, much like Newtown. Boy do they love the waterworks there. Feel sorry for these two pieces of shit if you guys want, I don't but we're all entitled to that individual opinion. This thread was about a news outlet, a major news outlet, sympathizing with a perpetrator instead of the victim. That isn't right. It should be lauded and they should have their asses chewed out by the public, not ignored.

Yeh your right, i apologise. That was a lazy comment that came without any research into the circumstance and a bit of assumption. I guess i was coming from a perspective that during my mispent youth i witnessed a lot of situations involving drunken women being ridiculously obnoxious and sometimes these situations aren't as clear as they seem on paper. Although after reading into the details on this one it seems like it is indeed clear.

#164 Posted by insouciant (710 posts) -

@aiurflux said:

and this fucking BITCH is being sympathetic to them.

I know! This dumb cunt is practically BEGGING for it!

lol

#165 Posted by egg (1450 posts) -

OP is overreacting maybe a little? If it's any consolation, the sympathy those two guys are getting is not doing them much good... or any good for that matter.

#166 Posted by Stonyman65 (2591 posts) -

@egg said:

OP is overreacting maybe a little? If it's any consolation, the sympathy those two guys are getting is not doing them much good... or any good for that matter.

That's true, but the problem is that they shouldn't be getting any sympathy at all, much less from the news media. That's so wrong on so many different levels.

#167 Edited by AlexanderSheen (4929 posts) -
#168 Posted by WinterSnowblind (7613 posts) -

@aiurflux said:

Since when are we supposed to show sympathy for a fucking rapist, murderer, pedophile, and on and on and on?

We're not supposed to show sympathy, we should condemn such scumbags, but we're also not supposed to immediately burn every culprit at the stake, completely disregarding the million social and psychological factors that our sciences and research have taught us. You sound like you'd say the same thing about witches if you lived in the middle ages.

But heeey it's too sensitive and tricky to actually think about what kind of guy(s) and girl(s) were involved, consider any circumstances or actually realize that we're not them so we're not in their shoes, and we need our daily fix of spouting sentences that make us feel good about ourselves so fuck the rapists and murderers to hell! Disgusting and outrageous and they should know better! I'm a great person, I can feel it now.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about these two guys, I watched the video and clearly they're fully to blame, I was responding to your very general question.

I think the problem is that they feel sorry for themselves. Their actions before and in court show that they were clearly worried about their own futures and are now upset because their own lives have been ruined by these events. There seems to be little regret for what they actually did, just that they got caught doing it.

I hate to use the term "rape culture" but there really does need to be more done about this and personally, I think they deserve far harsher punishments.

#169 Edited by Sanity (1891 posts) -

Fairly minor for the major news networks, i stopped being shocked years ago.

#171 Posted by Gladiator_Games (443 posts) -

Ooo! Maybe the rapists will get raped in jail! ... Well shit.. Thats a naaty vicious cycle by OPs logic...

#172 Edited by Brodehouse (9588 posts) -

I'm often taken aback by how people say that rape is the worst thing a person can ever live through, and then get absolutely giddy at the thought of prison rape. If you want to talk about rape cultures where rape is not only made marginal but encouraged, that's what rape culture looks like. I think the greater Internet reaction is proof enough that western society kind of looks down on rapists.

I'm also surprised by how much Ohioans love football, enough that rape is just some thing that happened to some one. Then again, we just had a murderer win the Super Bowl so I guess this all fits together in some way. Play football, get away with murder. You murdering murderer.

As to the truth of the actual case, who knows. I tend to stand with police and prosecutorial investigations in general, but the defense's case just doesn't cut it. As Brian Banks showed, stranger things have happened, but I'm not sure that happened here.

Also agree with whoever said that modern prisons do shit all for rehabilitation. Modern prisons turn criminals into career criminals, not instill any sort of discipline or respect for the law. But that's a way larger issue.

As for having sex with drunk people, I will just tell any guy to not do it. Even if you are more drunk than her, it will be assumed that she is completely vulnerable and you are completely in control (because we infantilized women). Do not have sex with any drunk strangers, probably should be extremely careful with sex with strangers anyway. Because as soon as you do, you give them complete control over your life. So be careful. And that comes from someone who is actively pro-sex and pro-sluttiness and whatever. Hey, if you want to have sex with no threat of having it called rape after the fact, have group sex. Get a witness to back you up!

#173 Edited by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

Violence and hate in exchange for violence and hate, and the cycle continues.

Eye for an Eye, right?

This is my problem with the death penalty, every time some one tells me why it exists its for a diffrent reason.

Is is for justice, or is it for determent? No one can make up there mind. If its for justice then logically it makes no sense because the only reason death is any kind of justice is for emotional reasons, and the reason we have a justice system is to rid our self of emotion.

If its for cost then it fails, because it costs more to execute someone then to lock them up.

If its for determent then it fails because, very rarely do people think criticly about killing some one.

#174 Edited by stryker1121 (1345 posts) -

@egg said:

OP is overreacting maybe a little? If it's any consolation, the sympathy those two guys are getting is not doing them much good... or any good for that matter.

That's true, but the problem is that they shouldn't be getting any sympathy at all, much less from the news media. That's so wrong on so many different levels.

For the networks they needed some slant as the girl was not (or not supposed to be at least) ID'd. So the rapist bawling in court was the angle they took.

#175 Edited by Intro (1206 posts) -

#176 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -
#177 Posted by Video_Game_King (36013 posts) -
#178 Edited by thomasnash (539 posts) -

Could the problem between people who think the reporter is reprehensible, and those that understand the sadness be that they see the expression of sadness as expressing different things?

I guess the first thing I'll say is that I'm obviously not cool with rape, and I don't think that many people are. I don't want to get into arguments about what constitutes legitimate rape but I will say that I am never going to be someone who contradicts a woman who feels she was raped. Also, I'm not going to say that they don't deserve the punishment or anything. But with that said, I don't think sadness about the fall of the defendants is mutually exclusive from sympathy for the victim - in fact I'm not sure that the sadness is really the same thing as the sympathy.

I'm not sure how exactly to articulate what I mean, but I'll try by using an example that comes to mind, which is that of French Footballer Zinedine Zidane's ignominious exit from professional football, during the final of the world cup. For those who don't know or remember, Zidane, probably France's most popular footballer at the time, not just in his home country but around the world, was due to retire from professional football after the world cup final in 2006. What could and should have been a wonderful full stop on a pretty amazing career was ended with a red card after he violently headbutted Materazzi during a gap in play. It was a weird moment to watch, because no one was quite sure why he'd done it - more so because in a sport where theatricality is the norm, it was startlingly abrupt and brazen. I don't think there can have been a single person watching who was on his side, or felt that he shouldn't have been given a red card.

Nonetheless, I think most people who cared would have watched him going into the tunnel, his final time on the pitch, who wouldn't feel sad about the way his career was ending. It feels like this is somewhat similar? You can feel like the reaction to the event was totally correct, justified, whatever. You can hate the action, believe that it was a situation and punishment entirely of the Zidane or these boys' making, and still feel a sadness. Not the sadness of sympathy - I feel your sadness because I felt invested in this going some other way, in you winning, in her losing - but a general lowing of sadness that something beautiful or great, or with the potential to be so, has been stupidly, senselessly sullied forever.

Of course, after the moment there's all sorts of hand-wringing retrospective justification, the attempts to find a reason that a monumental blot might be made less monumental. I remember how much energy was spent working out what Materazzi had said to Zidane to provoke him, especially in the French media, and how much hyperbole over how what he said deserved such a reaction and so on; and now we have the people quick to apportion blame to the victim for being drunk, quick to inflate the potential of the defendants to the size of their crime and make the punishment seem more devastating - less utilitarian - in the process. It's disingenuous, but for as much as it might be borne out of that initial sadness (I won't deny that some are probably advancing their own agenda with regards to the definition of rape) it has nothing to do with at the same time. The sadness is just itself, an aesthetic reaction to the totality of the situation.

I might just add, just so that I move away from sport as that seems to be a connecting factor here that I don't mean it to be, that we can certainly find examples of similar experiences in art, literature, cinema and so on. The death of Harry Lime is sad, certainly his girlfriend is sad, his friend is sad, despite his abject moral failure. Nowadays people will turn on Romeo and Juliet, stupid teenagers who rush into something on errant and erroneous feeling, who fail to assess the truth of their final moments and die for it - but the power of the play testifies to the sadness that I'm talking about.

Which I suppose is the key to what I'd like to say about this really. For every teen who swoons over the romance in Romeo and Juliet, perhaps another will think about the benefits of circumspection. Some of us are fortunate enough to have already realised what constitutes rape, and what our moral position on that is, so perhaps we override the initial sadness, perhaps we ignore it, or perhaps we have seen the situation too many times to feel it at all anymore. But I would say don't deny the power and importance of that feeling, not to condone, excuse, marginalise or deny (as much as it can be used for such), but as a protean force giving form to our own attitudes, ambitions and opinions.

Sorry for such a long, pretentious rant. It doesn't necessarily bear on the issue at hand (CNN's reportage), more just a general principle; I think it's unfortunate that we would jump on people for opinions they probably don't share just because they see a sadness in the situation.

#179 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4286 posts) -
#180 Edited by Sergio (2050 posts) -

I'm not sure why people keep saying they "made a mistake." A mistake is drunk dialing an ex. A mistake is drinking while underage. I've made that mistake before. They didn't commit a mistake, they committed a crime - rape.

#181 Edited by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

Can these people be made contributing members of socity, and how?

@sergio said:

I'm not sure why people keep saying they "made a mistake." A mistake is drunk dialing an ex. A mistake is drinking while underage. I've made that mistake before. They didn't commit a mistake, they committed a crime - rape.

Drinking underage is also a crime.

#182 Posted by avidwriter (667 posts) -

Fuck them. They knew what they were doing and they knew it was wrong. You fuck up, you do time, deal with it. No sympathy.

#183 Posted by Sergio (2050 posts) -

@dagbiker said:

Can these people be made contributing members of socity, and how?

@sergio said:

I'm not sure why people keep saying they "made a mistake." A mistake is drunk dialing an ex. A mistake is drinking while underage. I've made that mistake before. They didn't commit a mistake, they committed a crime - rape.

Drinking underage is also a crime.

Yes, but I consider that more of a victimless crime. I expect more charges to come from the grand jury for the adults who hosted these parties that served alcohol to minors.

#184 Edited by golguin (3843 posts) -

For every teen who swoons over the romance in Romeo and Juliet, perhaps another will think about the benefits of circumspection. Some of us are fortunate enough to have already realised what constitutes rape, and what our moral position on that is, so perhaps we override the initial sadness, perhaps we ignore it, or perhaps we have seen the situation too many times to feel it at all anymore.

They know what rape is. They openly admitted to their actions in the texts and videos and bragged about what they did. It's what got them convicted. Are you aware of the details of this case?

#185 Edited by thomasnash (539 posts) -

@golguin: Perhaps I wasn't clear, although I thought I did say this; What they did was wrong, I have no complaints about the punishment, I am not in any way on their side. All I was trying to say was that saying that it is sad to see is not saying that you are on their side.

The section of my post you quoted had nothing to do with the moral competence of the rapists, only about the way in which we react to sad situations. I wasn't saying they might not have raped her if they'd read romeo and juliet.

#186 Posted by Ares42 (2576 posts) -

@sergio said:

I'm not sure why people keep saying they "made a mistake." A mistake is drunk dialing an ex. A mistake is drinking while underage. I've made that mistake before. They didn't commit a mistake, they committed a crime - rape.

It's because they are minors and might not have realized the severity of their actions at the time. I know for certain that I did several things as a youth that could be considered crime that I didn't realize at the time. As I've talked about earlier, this is why we have juvenile court, because we're judging people that (legally) may not have fully developed their sense of morality yet. Just because they said some of the things they said it doesn't mean they actually fully grasped how fucked up it was.

Online
#187 Posted by golguin (3843 posts) -

@golguin: Perhaps I wasn't clear, although I thought I did say this; What they did was wrong, I have no complaints about the punishment, I am not in any way on their side. All I was trying to say was that saying that it is sad to see is not saying that you are on their side.

The section of my post you quoted had nothing to do with the moral competence of the rapists, only about the way in which we react to sad situations. I wasn't saying they might not have raped her if they'd read romeo and juliet.

Well, I'll say that I have enough empathy to nearly cry during The Walking Dead with Clem and Lee and I've almost cried watching a few movies.

That being said I feel nothing in this case for the rapists. I do not care what becomes of their lives because they decided to rape. I do not care if their promising future has been shattered and leads to a life of ruin. I don't care if they come back and never do a bad thing in their life. I don't waste emotional energy on things I do not care about.

I think the general consensus on why people view situations in certain ways is because their own lives have shaped their values. We had a guy in here that was sexually abused and had no sympathy for the rapists and went so far as to say he'd kill them. His life and circumstances created that view.

On the other end of the spectrum we have Mr. "I'm sorry that you're such a boring fuck and don't understand what it's like to be young drunk and around women" and his opinion on this matter probably came from his past experience where someone he knows raped someone or he himself probably got in a rapey situation with a girl.

Both are valid opinions to have. The wrongness or rightness to have such opinions is of course a matter of public opinion and that opinion is to treat rapists as the worst. People can justify murder in their minds. We do it all the time with war. Justifying rape is a sort of mental gymnastics that can only be pulled off by a very few.

#188 Edited by WarlordPayne (694 posts) -

@sergio said:

I'm not sure why people keep saying they "made a mistake." A mistake is drunk dialing an ex. A mistake is drinking while underage. I've made that mistake before. They didn't commit a mistake, they committed a crime - rape.

That's been really bothering me, too. This isn't something that happened on the spur of the moment. This was a prolonged attack on a helpless girl. They dragged her to different parties and passed her around. They even used the word "rape" themselves when talking about it so they knew what they'd done, yet they kept right on doing it and laughing about it and documenting it and posting it online.

If they felt so safe raping a 16 year old girl that they would record it and post pictures of it to Facebook, can you imagine what they must've already gotten away with, or what they've done that they weren't comfortable putting up online?

They're fucking animals. This wasn't a mistake, this was them being themselves, and it's disgusting that they may be out in as little as 1 or 2 years.

#190 Edited by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@fourwude: You'r right about their Isreali bias in that interview, that was really bad I'm glad you brought that to my attention, I guess now the only news channels worth watching are Al Jazeera and RT...

#191 Edited by EpicSteve (6471 posts) -

I have zero sympathy for those that break society's rules to such a dramatic degree. I don't see that there reporters are "sympathizing", they were just going into how this will impact the accused lives. It's terrible to see someone with potential to ruin their life. Not that I feel sorry for them. I'd honestly be ok with them being in prison for life. Or even face the death penalty, because fuck them. Too many serious crimes get swept under the rug because the criminal was a minor. In cases like this, I don't buy mercy on that platform.

#192 Posted by martyarf (250 posts) -
@dagbiker said:

Can these people be made contributing members of socity, and how?

@sergio said:

I'm not sure why people keep saying they "made a mistake." A mistake is drunk dialing an ex. A mistake is drinking while underage. I've made that mistake before. They didn't commit a mistake, they committed a crime - rape.

Drinking underage is also a crime.

Yes, there are many programs aimed at rape rehabilitation. They are vitally important because most rapists are serial rapists - that is to say, the majority of rapes are carried out by persistent rapists, and so when we discover one, we need to work very hard to try and break that mentality. Of course, when our society continues to push the blame on to victims, shrug it off with "boys will be boys" and frame these crimes as "mistakes", these programs are first on the chopping block of an already fucked up and broken prison system. Do you think the private companies paid to run prisons give a shit about rape rehabilitation?

It takes a lot of work to rehabilitate rapists, and it has a very high recidivism rate. Rape is fundamentally about power, exerting it and withholding it (this is vitally important, because it explains why the more vulnerable you are - young or old, disabled, drunk, imprisoned etc - the more likely you are to be raped). How do you change someone who wants to exert power over others? They rarely see any harm in their actions, supported by our narrative of a just-world (she was asking for it, etc).

#193 Edited by kkotd (290 posts) -

I'll say this much about it all... It made my mom, a woman 10x more ranty than myself, get on CNN's facebook and complain about how immoral and just plain wrong it was for the reporters to focus on the rapists' future like this... She barely knows how to use Facebook but she got there and posted a wall message. First day it had 1,000 likes and now that it's been about a week, it has 251,729 likes on it and it's still going up. So... Yeah, I'd count this as a big deal. I hope all of the reporters rot in hell for this, there's a difference between doing your job and being a sensationalist prick for the hell of it.

#194 Posted by HrMagni (94 posts) -

#195 Edited by Karmum (11517 posts) -

Maybe I'm fucked up but I'm going to be honest, I didn't think it was that bad. But it shouldn't be reported like that, this is about the victim, not the criminals. Who cares if they were very good students? Not smart enough to know rape is a bad thing, apparently. Forget what the father thinks or his lack of professing his love for his son, nobody really cares. They raped someone, period.

I have further opinions on this but I feel like I'd get blasted for being not completely sympathetic for the victim. Regardless, it's about the victim, not the criminals.

#196 Posted by TheHT (10889 posts) -

Good lord, going through this thread is like going through a field post battle. Deleted posts everwhere.

Online
#197 Posted by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

@theht said:

Good lord, going through this thread is like going through a field post battle. Deleted posts everwhere.

Yeah these are fantastic forums the moderators delete posts left and right.. has it always been like this?

#198 Posted by TheHT (10889 posts) -

@theht said:

Good lord, going through this thread is like going through a field post battle. Deleted posts everwhere.

Yeah these are fantastic forums the moderators delete posts left and right.. has it always been like this?

They get rid of the vitriolic stuff, but deleted posts never left tombstones behind.

Online
#199 Posted by PillClinton (3290 posts) -

Somehow I feel like these kids wouldn't be getting this kind of sympathy if they weren't star football players. What that says about American pop culture, I'm not sure, but it's definitely disturbing.

#200 Posted by PeasantAbuse (5138 posts) -

lol @ rehabilitating rapists