#1 Posted by ALavaPenguin (181 posts) -

Hello I have a question, I need to know if there is a logical fallacy for this. Let me give an example:

There are a few people playing a game online together, using voice, chat, in a busy game where of course lots of little conversations are going on along with the conversations of strategy of the game ect ect.

Someone says something, not incredibly loud but audible enough very mean in the midst of other conversations. Only one person notices it. This person brings it up, but the only defense is "everyone else didn't hear it, so it didn't happen." But they stand by this defense as if someone didn't hear one little thing is more valid than someone actually hearing a very specific thing. You could probably take this example to a crowded room of conversations where someone doesn't pick up on everything.

I am no master of logic or anything, but this doesn't make sense to me. Just because you don't perceive something, it means people who did notice it are wrong? It doesn't make sense to me that the evidence would be stronger of someone who didn't see something, compared to someone who did without a doubt see something. Just because you didn't see it happen, does not mean it didn't happen, but if someone sees it happen, it proves it did!

I know this is dumb personal drama but lets just say something like this was very hurtful that happened to me. Someone said something mean about someone else I heard, and I asked them about it, sternly but peacefully and not even that confrontational of a way, went into a rampage about how no one else heard it, and then started making fun of me for being a "lonely cripple with no friends" [I have a permanently broken hand] and everyone then removed me from every type of friends list ever in the group [and these were close friends, we even had RL trips planned together no joke], all mostly on the basis of how no one else heard it [this person who said this had a long well known history of being a pain in everyone's side in the group though too about stuff like this] so it couldn't have been true.

Thank you for your help. I know this is dumb drama between friends none of you want to hear about but I need to know thank you.

#2 Posted by Video_Game_King (34613 posts) -

That's not even a fallacy. That's just run-of-the-mill idiocy.

#3 Posted by EXTomar (4125 posts) -

That isn't a fallacy. That is just simply someone lying.

#4 Edited by joshwent (1778 posts) -

Anyone who would ever do anything like that isn't worth your time. Flip them off as hard as you can with your permanently broken hand, and move on.

#5 Posted by Panelhopper (155 posts) -

If these people actually did those things, they are not your friends.

#6 Edited by ALavaPenguin (181 posts) -

Ok thank you for your help just what I wanted to know. I will admit they do have strong bias tendencies in this situation too which would make sense of this "it never happened" [despite the rude comment was about them]. However, I don't know if it really was lying, in the situation it was very likely for not everyone to have heard that, and reasonably so, but that doesn't make sense to discredit the person who does testify to hearing it. [it wasn't even a big deal, just was made a big deal out of the reaction by everyone]

[and on that subject, my hand isn't even noticeably "crippled" to the average person, just in a number of my fingers I can't move any of the joints, like my index finger only moves at the knuckle, no one even notices unless I point it out (but it is still a significant factor in my life)

#7 Edited by Itwongo (787 posts) -

Yeah, lack of evidence doesn't prove or disprove anything. Anecdote isn't much better, but if they were really your friends, they would have taken your word and at least looked into it instead of dismissing it outright.

Sorry duder.

#8 Posted by MB (11302 posts) -

This person sounds like a real dick who is not worthy of another minute of your time.

Moderator
#9 Edited by spraynardtatum (2125 posts) -

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it the tree never existed in the first place.

#10 Edited by ALavaPenguin (181 posts) -

@spraynardtatum said:

If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it the tree never existed in the first place.

Well but I heard it, if by tree you mean what he said. I think a good way of putting it would be that I was by the tree, I heard it fall, but my friends were a mile away, so they didn't hear it, so they deny it ever fell. Thank you that is a great way to put it when you put it in that old saying.

#11 Posted by BiffMcBlumpkin (3719 posts) -

Just because you don't perceive something, it means people who did notice it are wrong?

It's probably not the most popular opinion here but I agree with your friends. If my dog accidentally watches me masturbate and my buddy stops by afterwards, and noticed the dog is acting strangely which he almost always does, my buddy doesn't know why and he will never know why. Only dog knows.

#12 Edited by ALavaPenguin (181 posts) -

But the dog isn't testifying to that specific act. All your friend is noticing is your dog is acting weird, and has no reason to know any reason why he would be acting weird.

If the dog was saying this happened, and the friend was saying it didn't because he didn't see it, that would be the same thing.

It would also be similar to say the friend knew your dog acted weird because this happened, and he then said to the effect, "I know your dog is acting weird and that means this happened, but I don't believe it actually happened as I think that dog is just lying/ect."

I think this is a really loose analogy that doesn't even match up to the situation not trying to be rude.

And the non specificity of it with the dog not speaking and saying this happened, as the dog could even then be "acting weird" for some random reason who knows why. That is just a real loose analogy. Sorry not trying to be rude really just I don't see at all how this is relevant.

#13 Edited by BiffMcBlumpkin (3719 posts) -

I agree that no analogy is perfect but that particular one would be as close to perfect as an analogy could be if my dog could speak. If my dog approached me when I was hanging out with my buddy and threatened to tell my buddy what he had seen me doing in the other room, to be honest, I would flip out on him too. He's supposed to be my friend. Man's best friend, and it's hardly my fault he walked in on me when I thought he was sleeping on the couch.

#14 Edited by kerse (2039 posts) -

Those don't sound like good friends to me.

#15 Posted by ALavaPenguin (181 posts) -

@kerse said:

Those don't sound like good friends to me.

Honestly, it is rather freeing to be free of them, but it still hurts.

#16 Posted by Itwongo (787 posts) -

@biffmcblumpkin: sorry, guy, but if someone's shit-talking me or my friends, I'm gonna call you out on it. If other people are around when it happens, tough luck.

#17 Posted by mlarrabee (2760 posts) -

If you're a jerk in the woods alone, are you still a jerk?

Yes.

#18 Edited by guiseppe (2833 posts) -

They knew you were right, got scared (automatic defensive) and ignored you instead of owning up to their mistake. It happens all the time unfortunately. Mostly with people who are insecure.

#19 Posted by McGhee (6091 posts) -

There is a logical fallacy known as an "appeal to numbers," as in claiming that because so many people believe something, it must be true. In other words, so many people believe that god exists, so it must be true.

It does not completely fit here, but it is close: "all of us didn't hear it, it must not have happened."

#20 Posted by Random45 (807 posts) -

If these people actually did those things, they are not your friends.

No kidding.

#21 Posted by Stonyman65 (2406 posts) -

A fallacy is "a plausible argument using a false or invalid inference". A logical fallacy is the same thing, but with false or invalid logic, if that makes any sense.

What happened isn't a fallacy, or even a logical fallacy, it's just someone being a stupid asshole.

For reference, here's good list of the types of logical fallacies https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/pdf/FallaciesPoster24x36.pdf

#22 Edited by TheHT (10285 posts) -

I can respect an argument for nothing outside of the self being actual, but only specific things to be actual while others are not because an arbitrary threshold of experiencers has not been reached it is a bad argument.

As others have said, that person was just being an asshole. You should slapped him upside the head when no one was looking and used his excuse. But then violence isn't always a worthwhile endeavour. Maybe you'd be better off not associating with fuckwads.

#23 Edited by Video_Game_King (34613 posts) -
#24 Posted by Karkarov (2622 posts) -

Here is a protip, when a tree falls in the woods it definitely makes a sound. You being there to hear it has nothing to do with it. Just like someone saying something assholian doesn't mean it wasn't said because no one heard it. The fact that they had to apparently be defended indicates someone did in fact hear it. Meanwhile this sounds like something out of highschool, to quote an applicable commercial "live and learn, then get luvs".

#25 Edited by audioBusting (1304 posts) -

Here's a handy Wikipedia link for the philosophy. And another one for the fallacy. Also this video:

(Yay, internet.) But yeah, shit, that got nothing to do with logic. Your friend is just an asshole. He might have freaked out over it but that's too far across the line.

#26 Posted by BiffMcBlumpkin (3719 posts) -

My dog watches me masturbate.

#27 Posted by ch3burashka (4906 posts) -

My dog watches me masturbate.

Does your cat avatar also watch you? Is that why it's wearing swimming goggles?

#28 Edited by Levio (1781 posts) -

I'm confused. If the friends didn't hear what was said, how do they know they didn't hear what was said? If the speaker was able to convey the message to the one person who listened, then it could be said that the speaker exists in so much as the listener has a conceptual idea of the speaker and that existence is defined not by the facets of the material world that float through space but by conceptualization of ideas within our consciousness. But even given that, how could the other friends possibly know the speaker even existed at that point in the time-space-interdimensional continuum if their consciousness was not focused on even the absence of the sound which represents their conceptualization of the original speaker, much less consider the possibility that he is being rude based upon preconceived social norms that differ between each individual and across each individual's infinitely divisible lifespan?

#29 Edited by development (1591 posts) -

I'm not super sure I understand the situation, but it's probably in your best interests to listen to Biff.