Is this an appropriate response from a government teacher?

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kishan6

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#151  Edited By kishan6
@FancySoapsMan said:
don't be a dick and stand up for the pledge
@Evilsbane said:
She isn't right and neither are you, if I was in another country I would stand and show respect for their culture and beliefs. So your both dicks.
@dungbootle said:
If everything was as you describe, then yeah she was being dickish.
No offense but you sound like "that kid".
These
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Twitchey

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#152  Edited By Twitchey
@AlexW00d: I could not describe it any better way. This is word for word how the conversation occurred.
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#153  Edited By PrivateIronTFU
@Scapegoat said:

@PrivateIronTFU: Do you remember half of the crap teachers are exposed too - let alone substitute teachers? (That said this doesn't mean that teachers can't be crappy/wrong)

I get that teachers get shit on from time to time. But that doesn't excuse her from acting the way she did. And in the grand scheme of things, not saying the pledge of allegiance is a relatively minor thing to get worked up about.

This whole thing reminds me of the episode of Seinfeld where Kramer doesn't want to wear the AIDS walk ribbon. And everybody blows it out of proportion.
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Extreme_Popcorn

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#154  Edited By Extreme_Popcorn
@Twitchey said:
@Buck_Sexington: I'm trying not to bring attention to myself, that's why during the pledge I am silent and during the moment of silence I do not talk either. The reason I don't say the pledge is because it is hypocritical to our modern society. I stand up for my opinion by, uhm, not standing up for the pledge. I didn't expect this thread to become the behemoth it is now. I was expecting a few replies.
You clearly were with this thread and the way you reacted to the teacher. 

I'm not American but just how is it hypocritical? I can understand you not liking it because of the 'Under God' part but you could easily just no say that and give the pre-1954 pledge
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Vinny_Says

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#155  Edited By Vinny_Says

She was acting inappropriately but your responses didn't help the situation.

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#156  Edited By napalm
@Evilsbane said:
She isn't right and neither are you, if I was in another country I would stand and show respect for their culture and beliefs. So your both dicks.
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Animasta

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#157  Edited By Animasta

I never said the pledge either, but I never said it because I was too busy reading and due to the way announcements were handled, I could get a good 5 minutes of reading in before that class actually started.

so fuck all y'all saying he should, because it's a dumb fucking thing to do EVERY DAY

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Commando

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#158  Edited By Commando

She was right. When in Rome, do as the romans.
In America, we say the pledge of allegiance. When you're old enough you can leave and we won't miss you.

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#159  Edited By zels
@Commando: And when you're in nazi germ...
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#160  Edited By ryanwho

Sounds like you're not very good at when people ask you why you do what you do. Maybe you should figure out why you don't stand for the pledge, that way next time you're asked you don't flounder then cry about it to the internet.

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#161  Edited By ryanwho
@MariachiMacabre said:
She was in the wrong but your actions seem like you're doing it just to get attention.
And he got attention, and now he's angry that he did something for attention that got him attention. Teenagers in a nutshell.
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Turambar

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#162  Edited By Turambar
@AlexW00d said:
@Turambar said:
@AlexW00d said:
@Turambar said:
@AlexW00d: Well, considering the OP already admitted that he said something like "If you're willing to pay my way then sure"for the sake of egging his teacher on, I think he's pretty much shown his true colors.  Not pledging isn't the disrespectful part, but the verbal exchange following that shows dickishness coming from both sides.
True, but it seems it was the teacher who started the little 'exchange' so it seems he was just replying in the same manner. But obviously I can't be sure of this.
Honestly, I am highly doubt the tone of the verbal exchange actually went the way the OP claims it did.
Again, this is probably true, but as we only have OP's account to go by, then that is all I am going to go by.
I'm just a doubting Thomas =P
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Twitchey

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#163  Edited By Twitchey
@Buck_Sexington: I use to say the pledge like that in middle school since I've been an Atheist since 7th grade. Except after a while I realised more and more of the pledge is against what America use stands for. People have the freedom to "unalienable rights" except many places refuse to allow same sex marriage because, guess what, Christians claim marriage is a holy. I doubt their God intended being married in a court house holy. This also relates to the separation of church and state. I know I'm using the gay marriage topic a lot but it is a very common topic and a lot of people are familiar with it.
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Commando

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#164  Edited By Commando

OP is an attention craver. He could have just as easily stood up, put his hand on his heart, and remained silent.

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@Twitchey: What an ignorant cunt. I would probably tell your parents and bring it up with the principal. 

Sounds like disciplinary material to me.
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@Commando said:

OP is an attention craver. He could have just as easily stood up, put his hand on his heart, and remained silent.

Instead of sitting down and actually standing up for what he believe in.

What is this bullshit about standing up somehow being different from saying the words? You're still acknowledging the pledge, which the OP apparently is opposed to.
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Extreme_Popcorn

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#167  Edited By Extreme_Popcorn
@Twitchey said:
@Buck_Sexington: I use to say the pledge like that in middle school since I've been an Atheist since 7th grade. Except after a while I realised more and more of the pledge is against what America use stands for. People have the freedom to "unalienable rights" except many places refuse to allow same sex marriage because, guess what, Christians claim marriage is a holy. I doubt their God intended being married in a court house holy. This also relates to the separation of church and state. I know I'm using the gay marriage topic a lot but it is a very common topic and a lot of people are familiar with it.
I've read this 4 times but after the first sentence I really don't know what you're talking about. 


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#168  Edited By McShank

If you could prove she said all that she would be fired. But also to not stand at least is showing disrespect, you don't have to say the pledge or put your hand over your heart but to not stand at least is probably what pissed her off. It is like not standing whena judge comes into a court room, you may not like them but you need to at least show enough respect since they are the boss.

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#169  Edited By Gabriel
@TheSeductiveMoose said:

@Commando said:

OP is an attention craver. He could have just as easily stood up, put his hand on his heart, and remained silent.

Instead of sitting down and actually standing up for what he believe in. What is this bullshit about standing up somehow being different from saying the words? You're still acknowledging the pledge, which the OP apparently is opposed to.
Bullshit you don't acknowledge the pledge unless you put your hand over your heart and say the words, the OP is just being deviant and got mad cause his teacher called him out on it. 
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PeasantAbuse

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#170  Edited By PeasantAbuse

Most people in my school don't stand for the pledge, it seems rather pointless.
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#171  Edited By Turambar
@Twitchey said:
@Buck_Sexington: I use to say the pledge like that in middle school since I've been an Atheist since 7th grade. Except after a while I realised more and more of the pledge is against what America use stands for. People have the freedom to "unalienable rights" except many places refuse to allow same sex marriage because, guess what, Christians claim marriage is a holy. I doubt their God intended being married in a court house holy. This also relates to the separation of church and state. I know I'm using the gay marriage topic a lot but it is a very common topic and a lot of people are familiar with it.
I'm not gonna harp on your lack of eloquance, but your supporting statements don't match what you're trying to say at all.  If you've already ceased saying "under god", then how does the hodge podge of sentences on on gay marriage actually relate to the remainder?  Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the current state of American policy on marriage actually falls short of the ideals given in the pledge, of liberty and justice for all, and not vice versa?
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@Gabriel said:
@TheSeductiveMoose said:

@Commando said:

OP is an attention craver. He could have just as easily stood up, put his hand on his heart, and remained silent.

Instead of sitting down and actually standing up for what he believe in. What is this bullshit about standing up somehow being different from saying the words? You're still acknowledging the pledge, which the OP apparently is opposed to.
Bullshit you don't acknowledge the pledge unless you put your hand over your heart and say the words, the OP is just being deviant and got mad cause his teacher called him out on it. 
If there was a pledge over here I sure as hell wouldn't stand up for it, not because I want to show disrespect to anyone, but because I'm not a fan of all this nationalistic bullshit and I don't think it has any place in school.

I'd sit down and make it clear that I'm not liking nor am I accepting this particular custom, and it should be my full right to do so.
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No0b0rAmA

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#173  Edited By No0b0rAmA

@Twitchey said:

@Buck_Sexington: I use to say the pledge like that in middle school since I've been an Atheist since 7th grade. Except after a while I realised more and more of the pledge is against what America use stands for. People have the freedom to "unalienable rights" except many places refuse to allow same sex marriage because, guess what, Christians claim marriage is a holy. I doubt their God intended being married in a court house holy. This also relates to the separation of church and state. I know I'm using the gay marriage topic a lot but it is a very common topic and a lot of people are familiar with it.


What the fuck am I reading? What does gay marriage have to with the pledge? See, liberals do hate America. And I'm not even American.

 

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@Lifestrike said:
@laserbolts said:
Having to recite a pledge everyday in school is pretty funny. Silly America.
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#175  Edited By Turambar
@Bamsen said:
@Lifestrike said:
@laserbolts said:
Having to recite a pledge everyday in school is pretty funny. Silly America.
Yeah, it is.  Good thing the American government made a law 58 years ago saying you don't.
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#176  Edited By Vodun

Wait...so...kids are forced to pledge allegiance to their country during school? And where was this, the Soviet Union in the '80s or what?

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#177  Edited By Alexander
@laserbolts said:
Having to recite a pledge everyday in school is pretty funny. Silly America.

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#178  Edited By FunExplosions

I had a teacher tell me I was going to be sent to the principal's office. This went on until a week or so later when she basically told us (me and my friend who took to my ways) that it was actually illegal, as evidenced through some court case or something. So we basically just started standing again... because... who the fuck cares? It's honestly laughable... even if I did love and respect every word that's in the pledge, I wouldn't stand up for it in class. We shouldn't be forced to show our allegiance to anyone, especially not in this day and age. It's just weird. Not a single person standing actually enjoys it, or enthusiastically chants the words. Everyone hates it, and they just mindlessly follow through with it without asking questions.

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I'm stunned by the number of people in this thread who somehow think that refusing to participate in the pledge of allegiance is somehow just as wrong as a public school teacher haranguing a student for that student's political opinion.
The courts have ruled multiple times that no one can be forced to participate in the pledge of allegiance.  Respect doesn't enter into it  - you don't have to say it, you don't have to stand for it if you don't want to.  So even if you are offended by the OP not standing, he was well within his rights to do so.  Even if he is some punk teenager just rebelling for the hell of it, his rights deserve as much respect as anyone else's. 


The idea that it's OK to not say the pledge, but that you should still stand up to "show respect" for your classmates who do say it is an idiotic, false distinction.  That's arguing that the act of people saying the pledge is somehow always due some token respect, and that it's wrong to disagree.  If the OP disagrees with the pledge, why should he show any respect for the act of saying it at all?  How is it possible to respect a concept that you disagree with

The teacher reacted unprofessionally and inappropriately.  Her students' political beliefs are not a matter for the classroom.  The school board (or the state legislature, more likely), forced the pledge to be said, the OP responded as he saw fit, and as he was allowed to do.  The teacher should have let it pass, rather than create a disruption over it.
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TheDudeOfGaming

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#180  Edited By TheDudeOfGaming

Holy shit, i would have simply smiled at that bitches ignorance. 


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Turambar

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#181  Edited By Turambar
@Vodun said:
Wait...so...kids are forced to pledge allegiance to their country during school? And where was this, the Soviet Union in the '80s or what?
@Turambar said:
@Bamsen said:
@Lifestrike said:
@laserbolts said:
Having to recite a pledge everyday in school is pretty funny. Silly America.
Yeah, it is.  Good thing the American government made a law 58 years ago saying you don't.
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#182  Edited By laserbolts
@Turambar. The fact that people actually still participate in this is still pretty sad. Pledge allegiance to bombing other countries for oil and killing thousands?
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#183  Edited By DeadlyWolverine

Fuck the pledge, it's not paying your bills, but that bitch sounds racist so she can go fuck herself to the pledge hardcore.
You are in the right dude, don't worry about it.
Report her and make your school a better place!

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hockeymask27

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#184  Edited By hockeymask27

I remember in elementary school before they banned the morning pray thing out right. It was the student's choice.

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#185  Edited By Vodun
@Turambar: What? It obviously still happens so just because the government doesn't force it on ya doesn't make it more ok. I would say it some how makes it even less ok if the country you're forced to pledge allegiance to doesn't even require it.
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#186  Edited By Turambar
@Vodun said:
@Turambar: What? It obviously still happens so just because the government doesn't force it on ya doesn't make it more ok. I would say it some how makes it even less ok if the country you're forced to pledge allegiance to doesn't even require it.
Except my point was not at all that it was more ok, but rather no one is somehow forced to make such a pledge under law in the country, so as to clear up any idea about it otherwise?
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#187  Edited By Vodun
@Turambar: Then maybe you should've stated this instead of throwing out other peoples quotes. Moving on.
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#188  Edited By Turambar
@Vodun said:
@Turambar: Then maybe you should've stated this instead of throwing out other peoples quotes. Moving on.
You mean quotes of myself saying previously that under law teachers are not allowed to do that?  Ok.
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KarlPilkington

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#189  Edited By KarlPilkington

Reminds me of forcing children in China and North Korea to read nationalist propaganda at school.

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Dude it's just a few seconds, why didn't you just stand for that? 

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#191  Edited By Dain22
Dissent is this highest form of... something, something...

@Gooddoggy said:
I'm stunned by the number of people in this thread who somehow think that refusing to participate in the pledge of allegiance is somehow just as wrong as a public school teacher haranguing a student for that student's political opinion.

The courts have rule multiple times that no one can be forced to participate in the pledge of allegiance.  Respect doesn't enter into it  - you don't have to say it, you don't have to stand for it if you don't want to.  So even if you are offended by the OP not standing, he was well within his rights to do so.  Even if he is some punk teenager just rebelling for the hell of it, his rights deserve as much respect as anyone else's. 

The teacher reacted unprofessionally and inappropriately.  Her students' political beliefs are not a matter for the classroom.  The school board (or the state legislature, more likely), forced the pledge to be said, the OP responded as he saw fit, and as he was allowed to do.  The teacher should have let it pass, rather than create a disruption over it.
Agreed. As far as I know, sitting in silence isn't rude or disrespectful. If he was flipping the bird to the flag and making fart nosies, that'd be different. If his body language conveyed juvenile defiance (e.g., folding his arms and putting his nose in the air), then I'd call his foul. Based on his side of the story, I can't find any fault in his actions. I can't blame him for the responses he gave to the teacher's biased, weighted questions/comments. She had an opportunity to attempt to open up an interesting discussion that required some critical thinking, but instead jumped right into pushing her own political beliefs. I could see how some might infer his comments as behaving like a smart-ass, but I can't imagine any other junior in high school being ready for such an on-the-spot attack from their own teacher.

If you're really not happy with your country, why not make your voice heard in some non-violent matter? As long as he's not doing harm to himself or others, what's the problem?

I remember making the choice not to bow my head in prayer at assemblies in my high school (how they manage to continue to allow the church into the public school system [Newfoundland, Canada], I'll never understand). I didn't make a fuss - and I don't think anyone else noticed (their heads were bowed, so duh), but I listened to what the pastor was saying and thought critically about what I agreed and didn't agree with what was being said. I agreed with the positive messages about treating others well, but I didn't agree that Jesus was my one and only savior or that the reward of heaven (or threat of hell) should be the ultimate determining factors on how I decide to live my life. If I thought my country was in a terrible state and that it was hurting those I cared about, I'd probably stop participating in the national anthem too.

Make the change you want to see in the world.
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MariachiMacabre

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#192  Edited By MariachiMacabre
@EpicSteve said:
That's a completely approprite response. You were being a complete dick. I mean, not respecting your country!? That's twisted shit. It's your freedom to be disrespectful. But you're obviously going through a rebellious teenage stage. Probably watched some Liberal Iraq war documentary or something. Most people I saw go through their "fight the man" stage, grew out of it. It offends people like me that people like you can't appreciate the sacrifices that have been made. Especially in a time of war were we have 1-3 soldiers die everyday, at least stand up. 
If there were one thing in the last 10 years that is justifiable to be angry about in America, I'd say it'd be the Iraqi Conflict. Just saying, brah.
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ryanwho

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#193  Edited By ryanwho
@Gooddoggy said:
I'm stunned by the number of people in this thread who somehow think that refusing to participate in the pledge of allegiance is somehow just as wrong as a public school teacher haranguing a student for that student's political opinion.
The courts have ruled multiple times that no one can be forced to participate in the pledge of allegiance.  Respect doesn't enter into it  - you don't have to say it, you don't have to stand for it if you don't want to.  So even if you are offended by the OP not standing, he was well within his rights to do so.  Even if he is some punk teenager just rebelling for the hell of it, his rights deserve as much respect as anyone else's. 

The idea that it's OK to not say the pledge, but that you should still stand up to "show respect" for your classmates who do say it is an idiotic, false distinction.  That's arguing that the act of people saying the pledge is somehow always due some token respect, and that it's wrong to disagree.  If the OP disagrees with the pledge, why should he show any respect for the act of saying it at all?  How is it possible to respect a concept that you disagree with

The teacher reacted unprofessionally and inappropriately.  Her students' political beliefs are not a matter for the classroom.  The school board (or the state legislature, more likely), forced the pledge to be said, the OP responded as he saw fit, and as he was allowed to do.  The teacher should have let it pass, rather than create a disruption over it.
So the kid can wield his freedom of speech but the teacher can't wield hers? Sounds like a double standard to me. If you don't want to stand for the pledge, fine. You're free to do that. And other people are free to ask you why. It works both ways. You wanna "be a rebel" and fade into the wallpaper at the same time, it doesn't work that way.
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ryanwho

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#194  Edited By ryanwho
@Chabbs0 said:
Reminds me of forcing children in China and North Korea to read nationalist propaganda at school.
What are you, bizzaro world Glenn Beck? I guess the left needs its cartoons as well.
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#195  Edited By KarlPilkington
@ryanwho: I bet Glenn Beck gets all the sexy Fox news ladies. 
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#196  Edited By Kazona
@EpicSteve said:
That's a completely approprite response. You were being a complete dick. I mean, not respecting your country!? That's twisted shit. It's your freedom to be disrespectful. But you're obviously going through a rebellious teenage stage. Probably watched some Liberal Iraq war documentary or something. Most people I saw go through their "fight the man" stage, grew out of it. It offends people like me that people like you can't appreciate the sacrifices that have been made. Especially in a time of war were we have 1-3 soldiers die everyday, at least stand up. 
Are you serious? So if America says jump, everyone living in it should unamously shout, "how high?" And call me rude if you want, but no one forced people to become soldiers and make those sacrafices. Maybe in the old days when people were forced to fight for their country, but nowadays that argument holds no water in my opinion since it was your own choice to join the army. 
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#197  Edited By fisk0  Moderator

As far as I know you have the right to sit down at the pledge, if I remember correctly, that has been tried in court numerous times, and every time it has been ruled in favour of the student who didn't want to participate. I might be wrong or not up to date though, I remember hearing about it in 80's and 90's talk radio, and the world has obviously gotten more fucked up since then.

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President_Barackbar

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@Dany said:
Also, its the fucking pledge, just stand in respect of the people around you.
@FancySoapsMan said:
don't be a dick and stand up for the pledge
@No0b0rAmA said:
Stop being a prick and show some respect. Neither of you are right.
I have respect for this country, and that is why I think all three of you are wrong. You have the freedom to do whatever you want in America. If you don't want to stand during the pledge, it is your right not to.
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PaulRevere

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#199  Edited By PaulRevere

I had a similar thing happen to me. My friend and I never said the pledge. We always went to a different homeroom in the mornings and were working on the newspaper, so we didn't really ever think to stand and say the pledge. One day, the teacher in the room we usually worked in was out sick so she had a sub. We didn't say the pledge as usual but this guy came up to us fuming after it was over and starting yelling about how disrespectful we were. He kept saying that he had had friends serve in the military, so of them even losing their lives. I thought it was inappropriate of him to do so. His friends fought for the rights of Americans... including my right to not say the pledge.

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Example1013

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#200  Edited By Example1013
@nosiwohL: Did you say that to him? I would've. Then again, I've never had any trouble mouthing off to teachers.