Japanese Learning Thread. Perhaps Official in Some Way?

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Video_Game_King

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#1  Edited By Video_Game_King

Look, me and were having a conversation about this in 's latest blog, and it seems like this might take off. If there isn't interest in this type of thing already (although that same blog suggests there may be), then this thread might generate said interest. Besides, this could be a damn useful resource for the community. Having trouble learning the language? Post it here and see if somebody gives you decent advice! Have a useful resource to post instead? Then do it! Hell, I'll start things off with the links from the blog that inspired this (and continue from there whenever I feel like updating):

Oh, but there is just one tiny little rule I'd like to implement:

NO LINKS THAT ARE MOSTLY IN JAPANESE

Why? Why would you ever think that this is a good idea? People are trying to learn the language; how the crapping hell are they supposed to navigate a site that's in a language they've made absolutely clear they don't understand? I know that this seems like an odd thing to be angry about, but I've seen this happen numerous times in situations just like this. I don't want that happening here.

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Jay444111

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#2  Edited By Jay444111

Oh fuck yeah! gonna bookmark this page! Thank you very much!

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Bigheart711

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#3  Edited By Bigheart711

Thanks for that! :)

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ImmortalSaiyan

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#4  Edited By ImmortalSaiyan

This is a good idea. Where I to pursue learning the language by myself where should I start? Or is that a terrible idea?

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Rokkaku

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#5  Edited By Rokkaku

I'll be beginning my degree in Japanese in September so I'll take any help I can get, thanks for the links! If anyone knows sites that link Japanese study with games or pop-culture that would be especially awesome, but I might be asking for a little too much.

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Hoffafiles

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#6  Edited By Hoffafiles

I've always enjoyed the community on yesjapan.com, I'm not sure how much of their content you can access without a subscription, but the owner has been doing daily videos about various aspects of daily life. Most of what I have learned has come from that site. I haven't been studying since I have got out of the military, but I did buy the Rosetta stone software, so I should use that and see how that goes. That way I actually feel like I didn't waste the money for it.

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Video_Game_King

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#7  Edited By Video_Game_King

@ImmortalSaiyan:

Take a class. It's pretty much your only hope.

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NegativeCero

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#8  Edited By NegativeCero

I'm down for this. I feel like if I start learning that I won't apply it and subsequently forget it. Sort of the reason I haven't seriously gone for it.

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Ketchupp

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#9  Edited By Ketchupp
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TehFlan

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#10  Edited By TehFlan

I may need to make use of this thread in the future if FE12 continues to not get localized.

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TheDudeOfGaming

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#11  Edited By TheDudeOfGaming

Japanese huh? Good luck, have fun batman.

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Video_Game_King

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#12  Edited By Video_Game_King

@TehFlan said:

I may need to make use of this thread in the future if FE12 continues to not get localized.

Why do you think I'm learning Japanese? OK, there are other reasons, but it is a reason.

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Sooty

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#13  Edited By Sooty

I'm on kanji #1865 right now. Only 250 or so left!

@ImmortalSaiyan said:

This is a good idea. Where I to pursue learning the language by myself where should I start? Or is that a terrible idea?

It's not a terrible idea at all. You definitely don't need to go to classes.

Check out Tofugu, TextFugu for getting started. Once you get some basics down you'll want to sign up on Lang-8 and write stuff in Japanese to get corrections, also JapanesePod101 can be useful and websites like Read the Kanji.

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Video_Game_King

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#14  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Sooty said:

You definitely don't need to go to classes.

Yes, you do. And so the debate begins again.

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Sooty

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#15  Edited By Sooty

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty said:

You definitely don't need to go to classes.

Yes, you do. And so the debate begins again.

I'm doing fine without them, if you use the many resources available to you online you'll be fine.

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Video_Game_King

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#16  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Sooty:

*points to self*

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topsteer

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#17  Edited By topsteer

@Video_Game_King said:

@TehFlan said:

I may need to make use of this thread in the future if FE12 continues to not get localized.

Why do you think I'm learning Japanese? OK, there are other reasons, but it is a reason.

Wait, is that the 3DS one? It hasn't been confirmed to be localized yet? It damn well better come out over here.

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Video_Game_King

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#18  Edited By Video_Game_King

@TopSteer:

The one before that. It was based on the second half of Fire Emblem: Monshou no Nazo (IE the half that was actually worth a damn).

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Sooty

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#19  Edited By Sooty

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty:

*points to self*

I don't really know what to say as my experience has been the opposite of yours. The best thing about classes is having access to native speakers which Lang-8 gives you to a certain degree.

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Video_Game_King

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#20  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Sooty:

Classes can also give you structure and guidance that you're probably not gonna find through self study. I wouldn't recommend Lang-8, since you have to be good at Japanese in the first place to get any use out of it. As long as we're anti-recommending in this thread...

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Shivoa

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#21  Edited By Shivoa

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty said:

You definitely don't need to go to classes.

Yes, you do. And so the debate begins again.

How is there a debate? What is unique about the lessons? This seems like an easy thing to sort out, note the factors that make a class the 'only' way and then look at how those lessons might be taught without going to a classroom. There is a significant body of research into distance learning which is all about taking the classroom out of teaching so the only real question is what paid resources aren't available for free online and how much will that slow the learning down?

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Sooty

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#22  Edited By Sooty

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty:

Classes can also give you structure and guidance that you're probably not gonna find through self study. I wouldn't recommend Lang-8, since you have to be good at Japanese in the first place to get any use out of it. As long as we're anti-recommending in this thread...

That's why I always recommend TextFugu as a fantastic place to start, it also introduces you to Lang-8 and gives you tasks to post stuff on there. Admittedly you aren't forced to do anything like you are in classes (due to grades, exams, etc) but it's still structure. I don't know how I'd have coped without having that as my stepping stone.

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Video_Game_King

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#23  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Sooty:

I'd still recommend the class, since if you can't so much as compose a sentence, a teacher or a fellow student is going to be there to figure out why it is you can't say shit in Japanese and then figure out the best course of action as to how to fix that. Lang-8 only works if you have sentences to write; if you don't, you're kinda fucked.

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Sooty

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#24  Edited By Sooty

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty:

I'd still recommend the class, since if you can't so much as compose a sentence, a teacher or a fellow student is going to be there to figure out why it is you can't say shit in Japanese and then figure out the best course of action as to how to fix that. Lang-8 only works if you have sentences to write; if you don't, you're kinda fucked.

TextFugu and other websites will teach you basic sentence structure very quickly, it's really not that difficult to get to a point where you can start making stuff up for Lang-8, so long as you can think of random stuff/sentences to type up. e.g. I went outside and saw a rabbit to the right of the river.

The worst thing is the realisation that you have to learn around 2000 kanji, easily the biggest barrier that mind fucks people I would imagine. I'm so glad I'm nearly finished.

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notdavid

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#25  Edited By notdavid

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty:

I'd still recommend the class, since if you can't so much as compose a sentence, a teacher or a fellow student is going to be there to figure out why it is you can't say shit in Japanese and then figure out the best course of action as to how to fix that.

Ooh! I know that one! Tawagoto.

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grahf14

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#26  Edited By grahf14
http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/
 
This guy has a really good blog about learning Japanese and he's attained a really high level with this method.  I think its a pretty good strategy for learning any language not just Japanese.  You can take classes and they will help, but when it comes to learning the language, your main resource is going to be your own passion and will power to learn it.  In order to get to a high level, you have to study it for a long time and pretty consistently, I'm talking like two years.  I've been studying the language for about 7 years on and off, and while I can have conversations and know about 500 kanji or so, I'm still a long ways away from being able to understand the news, video games, anime etc.  I've learned a few languages up to a high level (French and Arabic) and for me the key has always been consistency and passion.  The materials and methods you use are definitely behind those two things in determining your success in learning the language.
 
Another good website is
 
 http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/e/index.html
 
 The forums there are an awesome resource and theres a lot of success stories of people who've learned Japanese from scratch to a high level.  Good Luck!
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Video_Game_King

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#27  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Sooty said:

so long as you can think of random stuff/sentences to type up.

That's the crux of this situation. You can know that the he particle designates a generic destination, you form the causative with saseru, you ni does....something...(I'm never been too clear on what the hell that means), etc., but still have no goddamn clue how to form a sentence.

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SuperWristBands

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#28  Edited By SuperWristBands

Kanji is such a bitch. If it weren't for that then I'd be pretty confident in my elementary knowledge of the language. I've taken Beginner Japanese and Intermediate Japanese classes. Both were hella fun and we just finished our Japanese sketch. I sadly won't be taking Advanced Japanese right away as I now have more credit hours in Asian Studies then I do in Computer Science (my major) and Japanese classes are full year things at my University, which tend to get in the way of things. But... uh... yeah... fun stuff, take a class if you can, being around people and having to actually speak it everyday probably helped me keep going with it. This thread seems like a great idea.

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Video_Game_King

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#29  Edited By Video_Game_King

@notdavid:

Huh?

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notdavid

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#30  Edited By notdavid

@Video_Game_King: Google Translate assures me that that's how you say shit in Japanese.

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SuperWristBands

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#31  Edited By SuperWristBands
@notdavid said:

@Video_Game_King: Google Translate assures me that that's how you say shit in Japanese.

うんこ?
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Video_Game_King

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#32  Edited By Video_Game_King

@notdavid:

I believe the more accurate translation is 糞. Then again, swearing in Japanese is a pain in the ass, anyway (I thought that yaru was a good way to call somebody your bitch, but I've seen it used in certain situations and nobody was shocked by it or treated it as a swear).

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Sooty

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#33  Edited By Sooty

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty said:

so long as you can think of random stuff/sentences to type up.

That's the crux of this situation. You can know that the he particle designates a generic destination, you form the causative with saseru, you ni does....something...(I'm never been too clear on what the hell that means), etc., but still have no goddamn clue how to form a sentence.

I haven't been on Lang-8 for a while, maybe 3 months (I'm in 100% kanji mode) but just posting shit like:

先週私のゆびは切るた。いたかった。
This week my finger was cut. It was painful.

Is all I do, surely you can think of lame crap like that to say?!

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Video_Game_King

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#34  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Sooty:

No. I can't. Let's go through the thought process I go through when I try to type up a Japanese sentence. "OK, time to write a sentence. Remember: you have to write from Japanese for it to count, because anything else is worthless................I can't think of fucking anything. Alright, no problem. I can still make this work. How about I think in Senastian, but only using words that I know that I know in Japanese? That's gotta be just as good........................Fuck. I don't know what words I know. I can't think of anything. Still. How about I just write out a sentence and look up all the words I don't know and all the grammar points I think I don't know and do a word for word translation. Hey, ANYTHING'S good......OK, this is fucking bullshit. There's no way this can be helping my Japanese on any level. This is exactly what I was told NOT to do when learning a language."

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Enigma777

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#35  Edited By Enigma777

My contribution to this thread:

ビングでチンチョン峰

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Sooty

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#36  Edited By Sooty

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty:

No. I can't. Let's go through the thought process I go through when I try to type up a Japanese sentence. "OK, time to write a sentence. Remember: you have to write from Japanese for it to count, because anything else is worthless................I can't think of fucking anything. Alright, no problem. I can still make this work. How about I think in Senastian, but only using words that I know that I know in Japanese? That's gotta be just as good........................Fuck. I don't know what words I know. I can't think of anything. Still. How about I just write out a sentence and look up all the words I don't know and all the grammar points I think I don't know and do a word for word translation. Hey, ANYTHING'S good......OK, this is fucking bullshit. There's no way this can be helping my Japanese on any level. This is exactly what I was told NOT to do when learning a language."

I have that same problem of forgetting words I know, but I forgot I know them. Even in English I can't think of the words I learnt in Japanese sometimes, which is really annoying. Then when I look up a PDF with tons of adjectives and see them in English I remember the Japanese instantly, or the other way around.

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Video_Game_King

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#37  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Sooty:

Only I imagine with that mindset, you're thinking in English and then converting to Japanese, right? The second thing was me trying to think in Japanese, but not knowing what I know. I can't really resort to a reference book or a PDF, since my brain's gonna say "Oh, the PDF knows it for me, so I don't have to bother learning it."

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Sooty

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#38  Edited By Sooty

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty:

Only I imagine with that mindset, you're thinking in English and then converting to Japanese, right? The second thing was me trying to think in Japanese, but not knowing what I know. I can't really resort to a reference book or a PDF, since my brain's gonna say "Oh, the PDF knows it for me, so I don't have to bother learning it."

Hmm well I think of what I generally want to say in English, then I set off trying to come up with something that will mean similar in Japanese. When I was first starting off I would always type things in full sentences, like in English, but in Japanese you take so much stuff from context. When I was playing Yakuza 3 the English subtitles would say "Yeah that is true" or "Yes sir" but the Japanese being said was just something basic like "はい" "そうだ" so you can take multiple meanings from simple sayings just from the context of what is being said to you, but in English a lot of the time you're more direct and explanatory I guess.

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Ravenlight

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#39  Edited By Ravenlight

@Sooty said:

Check out Tofugu, TextFugu for getting started.

I agree. I singed up because of your suggestion in a previous thread ;) The way the lessons are structured makes it easy to sort out what you need to learn first. Much better then diving in headfirst when there's so much to learn. I like the way Textfugu teaches kanji as well.

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Sooty

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#40  Edited By Sooty

@Ravenlight said:

@Sooty said:

Check out Tofugu, TextFugu for getting started.

I agree. I singed up because of your suggestion in a previous thread ;) The way the lessons are structured makes it easy to sort out what you need to learn first. Much better then diving in headfirst when there's so much to learn. I like the way Textfugu teaches kanji as well.

Nice, I haven't used that site for kanji in a while now but I do recall them changing the section considerably not that long ago.

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blindisaac

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#41  Edited By blindisaac

Get yourself a good textbook such as Nakama (the one my school uses) or Genki, Learn the writing systems, try your hardest in learning the grammar, and do not forget to try to integrate it in everyday life (all this coming from a student majoring in Japanese)

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blindisaac

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#42  Edited By blindisaac

Or you know take some classes

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Pepsiman

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#43  Edited By Pepsiman

@Video_Game_King said:

@Sooty said:

so long as you can think of random stuff/sentences to type up.

That's the crux of this situation. You can know that the he particle designates a generic destination, you form the causative with saseru, you ni does....something...(I'm never been too clear on what the hell that means), etc., but still have no goddamn clue how to form a sentence.

Don't expect me to contribute a whole lot to this thread because of time constraints and general life commitments, but since I'm here right now and saw you mentioning that you're struggling with ように, I thought I'd help out since that's actually a not cliche (but very valid) issue I've seen from a Japanese language learner for once.

So よう has a bunch of uses, which makes providing a corresponding English translation somewhat hard since it's grammatically contextual. The big thing to keep in mind is that it's actually a な adjective, so ような is technically its "default form." ように, on the other hand, is its adverbial form. I'll discuss how you go about properly using that in a moment, but let's stick with ような, since that's the fundamental base that ように draws off of as a grammatical point. Your most common use of ような, is for setting up metaphors/similes. In English, a sentence such as "His nose is like a dog's" would probably be translated using ような. For example, what I'd have in mind in Japanese would be something like 「彼は犬のような鼻をしている。」

Setting up ような in this capacity is therefore pretty simple and works like this:

  • Nouns: Noun+ような. Pretty easy. Another example in addition to the one I already provided would be 「彼女は性格が政治家のようだ。」 (Her personality is like a politician's.) As you probably know, when you're ending a sentence with a な adjective, you drop the な in favor of a copula, usually だ or です. (There are others beyond those, but don't worry about them at this stage.)
  • Verbs: Plain form+ような. The plain form can technically be any tense or conjugation that you need if you know what you're doing, but most of the time, it's just the raw dictionary form used here. Here's an example of a sentence that can be used in this capacity: 「バラバラに破られたような本を買った。」 (I bought a book that looked as though it had been torn to shreds [by someone/something].) In the example sentence, I used the passive form of 破る, to be torn/ripped, since that sounds most natural in that sort of context, but again, any conjugation works as long as it's properly contextualized.

Verbs, however, tend to actually be used with ように, the adverbial form, rather than ような and the reason is pretty simple: you tend to make verb comparisons to other verbs and not to nouns. It's just more intuitive. Setting up verbs in this way is the exact same, the only differences are: 1. you obviously need to change な to に to make the statement an adverb and 2. the text that comes after ように has to be another verb statement/preposition of some sort. Examples, of course, are always helpful, so here's one: 「最後のレースに参加しているように走った。」 (He ran as though he was participating in his last race.) Again, in this capacity, any conjugation and tense of the verb you want to use with ように is valid, but you need to be careful with how you apply them. In past-tense sentences like the one I just used, most of the time you're just going to go with the plain, present tense of whatever conjugation you want to use. The reasons for this are somewhat complex and probably don't need to be made apparent at your stage in Japanese learning, but if you're really curious, feel free to ask and I'll explain what I'm talking about to the best of my abilities.

Nouns can also be used as adverbs with ように and are formed in the same manner as when they're used as an adjective. The purpose for doing this is usually to make a comparison between an action that's taking place and how the noun you use in ように approaches that same situation. This allows for the sentence structure to get potentially more complex than verbal statements used with ように, although they're both deeply flexible. I'll provide two examples to illustrate what I mean. 「キリンのように首を伸ばした。」 (He stretched out his neck like a giraffe.) In that example, you're making an implicit comparison between a giraffe, which obviously has a long neck, and the guy stretching his neck out, with the end result stating that the way he's stretching it out makes him look as though he's like a giraffe. Here's a more complex example that works off of similar principles: 「オオカミから逃げ出しているウサギのように走った。」 (He ran like a rabbit running away from a wolf.) The sentence structure itself makes use of a relative clause, which I'm not sure you've studied, but even if you don't know what they are yet, the basic point I'm trying to make is that you can provide more detail descriptions of the noun you want to you before putting on ように and that can include adjectives. The basic set up remains consistent as long as you remain true to how the grammar operates in each part when you want to get detailed.

Those are the main uses of よう and ように that you should worry about for the time being. However, for future reference, ように does take on a different meaning when certain verbs are used after it. The main ones are 願う, to hope/wise for, and 祈る, to pray for. This is because ように is also often used in an entirely separate grammatical mechanic altogether, which is to express the purpose behind doing something. I won't get into the nitty gritty of that grammar point specifically right now because that would take an equally long post as this one, but it is a distinction that you'll have to learn to make the more advanced your Japanese gets. I suspect this other form is what's tripping you up if you already know everything that I just brought up in this post, but for the time being, I wouldn't worry about this other stuff quite yet.

As a side note, みたい is a な adjective that is completely synonymous with ような and can be perfectly substituted into any of these grammar points I've outlined except for the one in the previous paragraph. The differences between みたい and よう are that the former has a bit more of a casual flair to it, meaning that's it's mostly used in an informal capacity, and that for nouns, you don't have to stick a の in front of みたい before using it. It otherwise means the exact same thing and can be used interchangeable when よう is being used for similes/metaphors.

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Bocam

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#44  Edited By Bocam

Wow this thread actually took off. While I don't think classes are absolutely necessary, they do give you a place to practice what you're learning. Or you could try going the JET route.

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sickVisionz

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#45  Edited By sickVisionz

@ImmortalSaiyan: Take a class or befriend a native speaker. Self-learning a language is extremely difficult since you can't really test yourself. It would be like working math problems but never actually having them graded so you can see if you actually get it or just think you get it.

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#46  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Bocam said:

Or you could try going the JET route.

The hell does that mean?

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#47  Edited By Rokkaku

@Video_Game_King: I think it's a post-graduate program where you can live in rural Japan and work for the Japanese government, or something like that.

What do people think about using James Heisieg's Remembering the Kanji? It doesn't teach any pronunciation, which makes it inherently flawed in one way, but it also helps you get familiar with a lot of Kanji very quickly.

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#48  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Rokkaku:

AJATT recommends it, so take it from there.

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#50  Edited By Video_Game_King

@Bocam:

Wait, you have to know English? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.