John Wick Vs. Jack Reacher?

John Wick is so much better than Jack Reacher it's not even funny.

Incidentally The Raid shits on both of them, but that's a Different discussion for another time.

I like The Raid, but no, it doesn't beat John Wick. The Raid is an action movie purely for the showcase of cool moves. John Wick is cool moves while building on a character and telling a revenge story. It's a very simple story obviously, but a good and entertaining one. The Raid essentially has none, really.

They are different movies.

@zevvion: They are extremely similar in that regard. What do think you think John Wick develops about the John Wick character over the course of the film? He has hardly any depth at all. Which is fine, but I have no idea what you're referring to them developing in your post. It's not possible to describe what his personality is like with any depth because the movie just does not go there at all. He's purely an icon and, as others have said, a boogeyman figure.

@bojackhorseman said:

You say that as if Fury Road didn't come out just last year.

John Wick is a film, Jack Reacher is a series of books.

I might be a crazy person, but I did not like Fury Road. Something about that universe just doesn't fit with me. Actually watched the first Mad Max film the other day, and was surprised by how bad it was. I mean, tonally it was all over the place, shifting from comedy to romance flick to that Saw-like ending. And speaking of that ending, how insanely anti-climactic was that? I was surprised to see the credits roll, because I didn't understand the film was over when it was. Weird film that one.

I hear people say that, but I don't share that sentiment. I actually like the John Wick character a great deal, and the world it builds is also very interesting. And there's a lot about his character in the film, it just isn't front and center. For instance, the emotional climax of that film is the church torture scene, when the character finally just breaks his persona and releases that epic, angry monolog. Great stuff. And the small stuff like the collar on the night table along with the wedding ring says a lot about him with few words.

@bojackhorseman: describe his personality. There is not much to his character. It's cool, it's an action movie and that is most often the way to go in one of those, but you guys are both reaching. Him being angry and wanting revenge are not anything being developed about his character beyond any action movie. The moments you're describing are credit to good direction but they are extremely simple character work.

@zevvion:

Eh, I disagree. I think both Wick and the raid exist to satisfy the same crowd in the same way. They are stylish and incredibly well executed action spectacles that are both paper thin on plot, because they rightly realize that that isn't why people watch those movies. I personally got more enjoyment out of the raid and it's more martial arts centered style as well as it just being so wildly creative with the way it played within those parameters. On top of that it just BEAUTIFULLY shot and is a cinematographic masterclass in terms of visuals.

John wick is beautifully shot and staged as well and is just a visual treat altogether but I just don't think the action sequences touches what happens in either of the raid movies.

@artisanbreads: John Wick develops a lot, not on the character, but on the world he is on. The hotel, the bar, the cleaners, even the police, they all have rules that everyone in the world knows and respects, yet we are not introduced to almost any of that. We have to fill the gaps because the characters never bother to explain them to us. To me this puts the world of John Wick on par with examples like Pulp Fiction, with a fraction of the exposition. I would be quite happy if John Wick was not the protagonist of the next movie, has nothing but a five minutes cameo in it, and the movie is based entirely around the adventures of some other character in that world.

The script of John Wick is a master class on world building, even if the characters are pretty conventional. In fact, that seems intentional... why else bother to cast Alfie Allen to have him be anything other than the annoyingly delusional greedy brat? or Ian McShane to be anything but the shady and mysterious badass even the mobs wouldn't want to cross, and yes, Reeves was casted because he embodies the detached badass with a past that transmits almost nothing through his face like nobodies business.

You are free to dislike John Wick if you want (my opinion is that the movie drags a bit in the second half), but please don't fool yourself thinking the cast and the setting are there by chance or by accident. They are extremely well thought out decisions (I would bet they thought out the world before they even thought out the script), better than most modern movies casting based around marketability (which is the admitted reason of, for example, Johansson as Kusanagi in GitS), and far better than "lets cast Tom Cruise as a protagonist, since he is also the main producer".

@hermes: Well said.

@bojackhorseman: The first Mad Max is only impressive because it was made in everybody's spare time for basically no money. The moment you compare it to an actual budgeted feature...yeah, it doesn't hold up super well.

Fury Road quickly became just about my favourite movie of all time (which surprises the hell out of me, because I've seen *a lot* of movies).
But, I can see your point. If you don't buy into that world, there is nothing in Fury Road for you. Incredible practical effects are great and all, but you need to be invested for any of it to matter even slightly. I just happen to adore that world and aesthetic.

I thought the first Jack Reacher film, was okay, I was not familar with the books and my sister said Cruise was a bad fit for how he is described in the books, so that might have cloused my judgement.

I thought John Wick was okay, but not really worthy of the fanaticism people here have for it.

But, neither movie is bad at all. These movies however are middle-age actor/man revenge fantasy films. Not bad movies, but they are a bit silly because isn teh world of reality it woudl be John Wick which woudl be dead and Jack Reacher would be moldering in a jail cell for multiple assaults. However if YOU liked John Wick or Jack Reacher I would recommend the following movie (Add your own movies if you wish so we can get a list going.)

Killing Them Softly (2012)
Don't believe the poor reviews by critics or bloggers. People are idiots or maybe 'idiots are just idiots' when reviewing movies over their heads. Killing Them Softly is brilliant and darkly humorous. It is a hero-less, unsentimental story about capitalism...not crime. Oh, it won't change you life or open your eyes - not that sort of film - but it IS a fun watch. It is not a staged, testosterone fantasy like as Reacher and Wick.

Payback (1999)
Yes, Mel Gibson's politics are abysmal. But, the movies is great and Gibson plays his role well. If you can separate the 'art' from the 'artist' than you will find this dark and violent movie of a bad guy fighting worse guys enjoyable.

A History of Violence (2005)
A much quieter and less frantic revenge movie, but still very good. It is not flashy or bold like any of the movies above, but very solid.

Harry Brown (2009)
This films swing more towards the typical middle age (or even older guy) having a testosterone fantasy. But, it is fracking Michael Caine who is wonderful as always, and unlike Harrison Ford or some other older American actors playing these revenge roles you actually believe Cane woudl shoot someone.

I never claimed it had depth. In fact, I said the opposite: it's very simplistic. But there is something there at least. Clearly, it's a revenge story about the dog. There is a reason he took another dog at the end of the movie. He loved his wife, gave up his career for her. She changed him clearly, making him not want to go back to it. But what remains of him after she's gone, is a shell of a man. He was loveless. Just a husk. The dog as this symbol of a message from beyond the grave from his wife, was to love again. Ultimately, at the end of the movie he has learned to love again, which is why he wanted another dog.

Super simple, but it's something. Something which The Raid does not have. It's 100% moves and nothing else. I find the core of John Wick far more enjoyable precisely because it has something to push it forward, even if that stuff was all super simple. The character interactions and dialogue are entertaining to listen to. I couldn't tell you the ones in the Raid, if it even had any at all. To me it felt like there was absolutely nothing there apart from: 'There's a guy behind you!' type dialogue.

To me, there is very clearly a difference. Perhaps I'm not good at articulating what that difference is and we're discussing this from two different realms.

@hermes:Was I talking about the setting? No. I never said anything about the world building. They do a pretty good job with that with minimal effort (good efficient directing for an action movie) but Wick is just a simple character, as I was saying. All the characters are simple as hell.

The movie is solid but not some amazing thing to me. I specifically am calling out a few posts because they are saying things are in the movie that are not there, mainly character development. I also like that it really knows its an action movie but I just don't think the action is all that amazing and what else is there isn't so great either, if intriguing.

You can do a lot more to develop a character in an action movie if you want, even with minimal effort. That's honestly part of the aim of Wick in my mind. He's practically like a slasher movie killer or something in vibe. To me that only works for so long in a movie before I find it boring. The action better be truly amazing to carry that set up and I just don't think it is in that movie.

@zevvion: The things you say are mostly true, the character is still just very shallow though. I just think the quick establishment of his character and lack of effort towards characterization is so deliberate and some really like that. Which is fine but lets just realize there is hardly any depth there. No one could describe his personality.

Yeah they take a couple more shots to develop his character than something like The Raid, but its hardly more. I do think it's commendable as efficient directing for an action movie. Mad Max Fury Road is a masterclass along those lines.

@artisanbreads: I wouldn't use the word 'shallow' since it has such a negative implicitness. As you said, the fact there is little there but still something is precisely the reason I and many others enjoy it, which is why I feel 'shallow' doesn't describe it as well. But yes, as I said before I never claimed or would claim there is a tremendous amount of depth there. But it is absolutely perfect for what it is. It's a revenge story that builds the character in such a way that his quest for revenge is completely understandable to me as a viewer. Absolutely nothing more than that, but also definitely nothing less. For how little is there, there is still emotion in what is there, which made me really like the story for what it is.

I didn't really like Mad Max though as a side note. Not saying it's bad, just not my type of movie. I found it rather dull, whereas I was never bored watching John Wick, not once. In fact, I've already seen that movie 7 times like a child. Different things for different people.

John Wick is a revenge, action movie. The only other movie that comes to my mind that is sort of similar is that Korean film, The Man From Nowhere.

Okay, seriously, Jack Reacher as a character bothered the fuck out of me because he was a complete and utter bellend but the movie seems convinced that you will find him likeable. Fuck that guy. The movie is okay.

John Wick likes dogs so that makes him about 89 times better than Jack Reacher.

I quite enjoy John Wick, but Pahleeeeeeeeaze. Jack Reacher times a billion.

If you haven't seen it, The Raid 2 has more story than The Raid and John Wick put together. It's actually quite deep, and focuses on more than just one or two characters. It's also really good at fleshing out its characters, rather than just alluding to an underground world of assassins that it doesn't really explain. Not that this was a fault with John Wick, and it works well to create a mysterious organization, but it does mean that The Raid 2 has much more of a story.

And I know it's been said, but as far as similarities go, John Wick has more in common with The Equalizer than Jack Reacher.

@spaceinsomniac: I actually own them on blu ray. I've only seen The Raid 2 once though. But that more or less illustrates my point. However simple John Wick's story is, it was a memorable one for me. Whereas The Raid and 2, I honestly couldn't tell you.