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#1 Edited by elitefury (51 posts) -

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Fatal-stabbing-follows-Giants-Dodgers-game-4845399.php

This story sums it up, and since someone is dead they is no more joy in "knife vs bat" discussion. Condolences to the family. Knife wins by the way.

#2 Edited by Nightriff (4376 posts) -

Bat used correctly should win always. Reach advantage is important.

#3 Posted by golguin (3668 posts) -

It says there were 10 people fighting. I don't see how that resolves the knife vs bat argument. It's always bat because it has reach. You'll crumble right after one hit to the body.

#4 Posted by CaLe (3678 posts) -

Seems obvious to me that the knife wielder is going to win if it's a fight to the death.

#5 Posted by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

@cale: That's crazy. A good bat shot to the head will kill in one blow...and if it doesn't it will leave them in a position where more blows to the head aren't difficult to manage

#6 Edited by LikeaSsur (1432 posts) -

@samstrife: The head is a small moving target. Also, the target has a knife. I'm pretty sure your accuracy would be way off given these factors.

In fact, anyone who thinks a bat would win is just ridiculous. Yeah, you have reach, but you need such windup to be effective that it cancels out. A knife is in 'n' out, multiple times, with little to no windup.

#7 Posted by MarkWahlberg (4499 posts) -

I'm starting a Kickstarter to address this question. To be scientifically accurate I'll need a large sample size, so I'm gonna need volunteers, if anyone's interested.

#8 Edited by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

@likeassur: I'm not saying the bat would win, just that isn't difficult to kill with one. I think you'd have to play the bat much smarter because of the reasons you've mentioned. Things like swinging for the legs first and waiting for the knife wielder to lunge first.

How has no one tried this out with a foam bat and some toy knife yet?

#9 Edited by CaLe (3678 posts) -

@samstrife said:

@cale: That's crazy. A good bat shot to the head will kill in one blow...and if it doesn't it will leave them in a position where more blows to the head aren't difficult to manage

Typical batter, overestimating your ability to swing a bat with accuracy, not to mention hoping that it isn't in any way deflected by the arms of your knife combatant. You rely on chance in a situation of life and death? That's batty.

#10 Posted by Catarrhal (813 posts) -

"All God's critters have knives." Think about it. They don't have bats.

#11 Edited by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

@cale: See my other post since. It's not that I'm banking on my accuracy, just pointing out that it's just as easy to kill with a bat as it is a knife. Your God given knife isn't all powerful and this aint COD where you can warp to your target and once shot them.

#12 Posted by LikeaSsur (1432 posts) -

@samstrife: It's not as easy, though. You swing for the knee and break it, great, but are they dead? No. Stabbing them in the leg, though? That's got a high chance to cut an artery, and that's a killing blow.

The area of what counts as a "kill shot" for a knife is the whole body, not so true with a bat.

#13 Edited by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

@likeassur: If I was to swing and break your knee, you would be out of the game already. On the floor, writhing in pain with a bat wielder above you...there isn't any way you're walking away from that.

#14 Edited by Demoskinos (13906 posts) -

How has nobody thought of the fact that the knife wielder has the hail Mary play of throwing the god damn knife. Yeah getting to actually stick in someone would be a gamble but if you scored a hit the distraction would be enough to get in close and finish the job.

#15 Posted by SharkEthic (945 posts) -

With a bat, you have to make the first shot count, because you don't get a second. You have to take the windup into consideration, plus the fact that a human can cover a short distance surprisingly quick. Also, there's a very real chance that your first blow will be blocked, which might hurt, or even break an arm, but in a life or death situation that's not nearly enough to stop a knife wielding opponent.

A deep stab wound is a pretty scary proposition no matter where on your body this might be.

#16 Edited by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

With a bat, you have to make the first shot count, because you don't get a second. You have to take the windup into consideration, plus the fact that a human can cover a short distance surprisingly quick. Also, there's a very real chance that your first blow will be blocked, which might hurt, or even break an arm, but in a life or death situation that's not nearly enough to stop a knife wielding opponent.

A deep stab wound is a pretty scary proposition no matter where on your body this might be.

That's why you have to fight smarter with a bat. If you don't have the technical finesse or fight smarts, the knife is the safer choice. If you can pull of a feint or have the skill to make the shot count more often than not, you'll win with the bat every time.

#17 Posted by LikeaSsur (1432 posts) -

@samstrife: And if you're stabbed anywhere, with any kind of force, you'd be out of the game. I appreciate your perseverance, but the knife is the clear winner in this fight, regardless of any skill level.

#18 Posted by SharkEthic (945 posts) -

@sharkethic said:

With a bat, you have to make the first shot count, because you don't get a second. You have to take the windup into consideration, plus the fact that a human can cover a short distance surprisingly quick. Also, there's a very real chance that your first blow will be blocked, which might hurt, or even break an arm, but in a life or death situation that's not nearly enough to stop a knife wielding opponent.

A deep stab wound is a pretty scary proposition no matter where on your body this might be.

That's why you have to fight smarter with a bat. If you don't have the technical finesse or fight smarts, the knife is the safer choice. If you can pull of a feint or have the skill to make the shot count more often than not, you'll win with the bat every time.

Your point being, that if the guy with a bat has various advantages over the knife wielder, and manages to pull off a feint, he'll win? Well, touché sir.

#19 Posted by Video_Game_King (34642 posts) -

"All God's critters have knives." Think about it. They don't have bats.

What about the bats?

#20 Posted by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

Your point being, that if the guy with a bat has various advantages over the knife wielder, and manages to pull off a feint, he'll win? Well, touché sir.

I'm not saying it in such a silly manner. I'm saying if you can pull off all that, you're better off with the bat. If you can't pull off all that, the knife is the better weapon to go for.

#21 Edited by LikeaSsur (1432 posts) -

@samstrife: Why wouldn't the knife benefit from weapon skills and feinting?

#22 Posted by SharkEthic (945 posts) -

@sharkethic said:

Your point being, that if the guy with a bat has various advantages over the knife wielder, and manages to pull off a feint, he'll win? Well, touché sir.

I'm not saying it in such a silly manner. I'm saying if you can pull off all that, you're better off with the bat. If you can't pull off all that, the knife is the better weapon to go for.

Cool cool. BUT! If you're a trained knife thrower, and you manage to nail your opponent right through the left eye with your first throw every time, you're better off with the knife. Agreed?

#23 Posted by Flappy (2035 posts) -

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd be scared shitless of a person well-versed in knives and the best ways to kill people with them.

The Raid: Redemption has some pretty slick knife shenanigans.

#24 Posted by Icemael (6271 posts) -

KNIFE4LIFE

#25 Edited by SathingtonWaltz (2053 posts) -

I love how everybody in this thread is talking strategy and tactics as if that actually mattered in a street fight. Life isn't a video game, and nobody in reality wields a knife like they do in the movies. Watch this video, you guys might learn something.

#26 Posted by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

@sharkethic:

Cool cool. BUT! If you're a trained knife thrower, and you manage to nail your opponent right through the left eye with your first throw every time, you're better off with the knife. Agreed?

Absolutely yes. Your sarcasm is pretty wonderful but the fight stipulation was always you were fighting an equal (lets say a doppelgänger of yourself). That being the case, you know the exact skill level you're going against...and guess what, it's your own skill level. Choose accordingly.

#27 Edited by SharkEthic (945 posts) -

@sharkethic:

@sharkethic said:

Cool cool. BUT! If you're a trained knife thrower, and you manage to nail your opponent right through the left eye with your first throw every time, you're better off with the knife. Agreed?

Absolutely yes. Your sarcasm is pretty wonderful but the fight stipulation was always you were fighting an equal (lets say a doppelgänger of yourself). That being the case, you know the exact skill level you're going against...and guess what, it's your own skill level. Choose accordingly.

I wouldn't trust my doppelgänger with a wooden spoon, but I'm guessing you're pretty good with a bat then?

#28 Posted by SamStrife (1280 posts) -

I wouldn't trust my doppelgänger with a wooden spoon, but I'm guessing you're pretty good with a bat then?

Am I hell! I would choose the knife every time. All I ever said was the bat isn't as much of a joke as some people think it is.

#29 Posted by golguin (3668 posts) -

I don't think people understand that amount of force that can be generated from the swing of a bat. There is no need to aim for the head. Just a body shot is enough to lay someone out.

There is some kind of assumption going on in the thread that the person with the knife is going to dodge the bat swing and be some kind of knife expert. You can kill a person with a punch to the head and a bat with more range and a larger target (the body) is going to miss? They aren't swinging nerf bats you know.

#30 Posted by KentonClay (176 posts) -

With a bat, you have one shot, that shot is 100% telegraphed, and you only have about a foot to work with. If you swing and they're outside of your swing radius, then you're dead. If they manage to close beyond a foot or so of your maximum swing radius without being hit, then you're also dead (Only a full swing with the end of the bat is going to have the force to stop them) The bat also demands a more awkward stance than the knife, which means the knife wielder is going to be more mobile.

I'll take the knife.

#31 Edited by Hailinel (22737 posts) -

Flagging this thread because the knife vs bat jokes are not appropriate given the context of the article. Someone died.

#32 Posted by FengShuiGod (1470 posts) -

@golguin said:

I don't think people understand that amount of force that can be generated from the swing of a bat. There is no need to aim for the head. Just a body shot is enough to lay someone out.

There is some kind of assumption going on in the thread that the person with the knife is going to dodge the bat swing and be some kind of knife expert. You can kill a person with a punch to the head and a bat with more range and a larger target (the body) is going to miss? They aren't swinging nerf bats you know.

Right. I mean, there are a lot of variables, but all things equal the bat wins. Why did people chose clubs and maces over knives for hundreds of years? Hint: They are better.

#33 Edited by SharkEthic (945 posts) -

@fengshuigod said:

@golguin said:

I don't think people understand that amount of force that can be generated from the swing of a bat. There is no need to aim for the head. Just a body shot is enough to lay someone out.

There is some kind of assumption going on in the thread that the person with the knife is going to dodge the bat swing and be some kind of knife expert. You can kill a person with a punch to the head and a bat with more range and a larger target (the body) is going to miss? They aren't swinging nerf bats you know.

Right. I mean, there are a lot of variables, but all things equal the bat wins. Why did people chose clubs and maces over knives for hundreds of years? Hint: They are better.

Why don't swords exist in this alternate reality of yours?

#34 Posted by golguin (3668 posts) -

@golguin said:

I don't think people understand that amount of force that can be generated from the swing of a bat. There is no need to aim for the head. Just a body shot is enough to lay someone out.

There is some kind of assumption going on in the thread that the person with the knife is going to dodge the bat swing and be some kind of knife expert. You can kill a person with a punch to the head and a bat with more range and a larger target (the body) is going to miss? They aren't swinging nerf bats you know.

Right. I mean, there are a lot of variables, but all things equal the bat wins. Why did people chose clubs and maces over knives for hundreds of years? Hint: They are better.

They didn't choose knives because they didn't have the expertise of knife fighting and long range weapon avoidance like the the people in this thread. Clubs and maces are nothing to a well trained knife army.

#35 Posted by FengShuiGod (1470 posts) -

@golguin said:

@fengshuigod said:

@golguin said:

I don't think people understand that amount of force that can be generated from the swing of a bat. There is no need to aim for the head. Just a body shot is enough to lay someone out.

There is some kind of assumption going on in the thread that the person with the knife is going to dodge the bat swing and be some kind of knife expert. You can kill a person with a punch to the head and a bat with more range and a larger target (the body) is going to miss? They aren't swinging nerf bats you know.

Right. I mean, there are a lot of variables, but all things equal the bat wins. Why did people chose clubs and maces over knives for hundreds of years? Hint: They are better.

They didn't choose knives because they didn't have the expertise of knife fighting and long range weapon avoidance like the the people in this thread. Clubs and maces are nothing to a well trained knife army.

And knives are nothing to a well trained club army.

#36 Posted by BabyChooChoo (4041 posts) -

I'll take the bat because fuck it. Unless you're fighting a blind cripple, there's an equally high chance you'll get hurt either way.

#37 Edited by chiablo (847 posts) -

Bat requires luck. One strike to the head or arm can disarm and disable the opponent. However, if this misses or the knifer dodges, then the knife wielder will win 100% of the time.

I bet if we got foam weapons and did some tests, we'd find that it equates to around 50% win rate of either option. Someone get Mythbusters on the phone.

#38 Edited by FengShuiGod (1470 posts) -

@sharkethic said:

@fengshuigod said:

@golguin said:

I don't think people understand that amount of force that can be generated from the swing of a bat. There is no need to aim for the head. Just a body shot is enough to lay someone out.

There is some kind of assumption going on in the thread that the person with the knife is going to dodge the bat swing and be some kind of knife expert. You can kill a person with a punch to the head and a bat with more range and a larger target (the body) is going to miss? They aren't swinging nerf bats you know.

Right. I mean, there are a lot of variables, but all things equal the bat wins. Why did people chose clubs and maces over knives for hundreds of years? Hint: They are better.

Why don't swords exist in this alternate reality of yours?

Edit: Oh my, did I not get the sarcasm?

Well, swords are relatively recent. Technology required to make steel that could actually get you a long sharp sword that would stay sharp and wouldn't break is relatively new. Knives (stone, bronze, whatever), or even basic shank like weapons vs clubs was a thing long before swords were produced in high enough quality and in large enough numbers, and until then clubs or axes or maces were favored over knives. Moreover, I said people chose clubs instead of knives. That in no way abrogates the possibility of choosing a sword over a club. Things get even more complicated with the kind of sword too. Piercing swords like fencing is different from a Samurai sword is different from a notched hunk of soft carbon steel which might as well be a club. But yeah, a sword beats the bat and the knife.

#39 Posted by tourgen (4252 posts) -

Bat used correctly should win always. Reach advantage is important.

knife beats gun most of the time in the ~8ft starting range. guns have better range than bats.

#40 Edited by golguin (3668 posts) -

@sharkethic said:

@fengshuigod said:

@golguin said:

I don't think people understand that amount of force that can be generated from the swing of a bat. There is no need to aim for the head. Just a body shot is enough to lay someone out.

There is some kind of assumption going on in the thread that the person with the knife is going to dodge the bat swing and be some kind of knife expert. You can kill a person with a punch to the head and a bat with more range and a larger target (the body) is going to miss? They aren't swinging nerf bats you know.

Right. I mean, there are a lot of variables, but all things equal the bat wins. Why did people chose clubs and maces over knives for hundreds of years? Hint: They are better.

Why don't swords exist in this alternate reality of yours?

Edit: Oh my, did I not get the sarcasm?

Well, swords are relatively recent. Technology required to make steel that could actually get you a long sharp sword that would stay sharp and wouldn't break is relatively new. Knives (stone, bronze, whatever), or even basic shank like weapons vs clubs was a thing long before swords were produced in high enough quality and in large enough numbers, and until then clubs or axes or maces were favored over knives. Moreover, I said people chose clubs instead of knives. That in no way abrogates the possibility of choosing a sword over a club. After all, a sword has the range of a club. But things get even more complicated with the kind of sword. Piercing swords like fencing is different from a Samurai sword is different from a notched hunk of soft carbon steel which might as well be a club. But yeah, a sword beats the bat and the knife.

I'm all for bats (you can see my post in the quote group). Something like a sword or a spear would win thanks to the increase in reach.

#41 Posted by FengShuiGod (1470 posts) -

@tourgen said:

@nightriff said:

Bat used correctly should win always. Reach advantage is important.

knife beats gun most of the time in the ~8ft starting range. guns have better range than bats.

Really the knife beats gun at something like 21ft if the gun isn't drawn. I'm assuming the people fighting with bat and knife are each facing each other with weapon drawn at something like 10-15ft apart. Cramped space like an elevator? Knife fo sho. Surprise attack in close quarters? Knife wins again.

#43 Posted by Nightriff (4376 posts) -

@tourgen said:

@nightriff said:

Bat used correctly should win always. Reach advantage is important.

knife beats gun most of the time in the ~8ft starting range. guns have better range than bats.

Melee weapons range is different, I can hit someone with a bat and knock 'em down but I wouldn't trust myself with a gun and a guy rushing me with a knife. Can't compare guns and melee weapons

#44 Edited by zels (204 posts) -

@hailinel said:

Flagging this thread because the knife vs bat jokes are not appropriate given the context of the article. Someone died.

20000 posts and I bet you haven't read a single thread properly. Read the contents, nobody's making jokes, they're just having silly arguments.

#45 Edited by ElixirBronze (356 posts) -

Holy shit and that's like two blocks away from the GB office? Crazy.

#46 Edited by FengShuiGod (1470 posts) -

@zels said:

@hailinel said:

Flagging this thread because the knife vs bat jokes are not appropriate given the context of the article. Someone died.

20000 posts and I bet you haven't read a single thread properly. Read the contents, nobody's making jokes, they're just having silly arguments.

Silly arguments? Silly? Go to hell, sir.

#47 Edited by Seppli (9762 posts) -

@catarrhal said:

"All God's critters have knives." Think about it. They don't have bats.

Gaben has all of God's knives. None left for the rest of us. Think about it!

Knives? All hail the once and future king!

#48 Posted by insane_shadowblade85 (1326 posts) -

As someone who has been hit with a bat (fractured ribs) and had someone try to stab him (small cut on my chest) I can tell you that a bat usually wins if they're standing face to face. Sneak attacking? Sure, a knife wins. But if you're facing each other a bat usually wins, because that other fucker didn't get very close.

#49 Edited by RenegadeDoppelganger (396 posts) -

@kentonclay said:

With a bat, you have one shot, that shot is 100% telegraphed, and you only have about a foot to work with. If you swing and they're outside of your swing radius, then you're dead. If they manage to close beyond a foot or so of your maximum swing radius without being hit, then you're also dead (Only a full swing with the end of the bat is going to have the force to stop them) The bat also demands a more awkward stance than the knife, which means the knife wielder is going to be more mobile.

I'll take the knife.

You're assuming the only attack a bat is capable of is a full-on two-handed baseball follow-through swing. Even a one-handed short snap of the wrist would be capable of disabling your opponent long enough to make your escape or finish the job.

I would say that it is actually the knife-wielder who only has one shot and it's a long one. They need to get inside your considerable range and once there avoid any and all attacks while also doing a enough damage to you to prevent further attacks. Being struck with a bat is going to send a shock through your entire body sufficient to stun if not totally disable no matter where it lands. Counter to what TV and Movies would have you believe, a knife has only a few places it can go on a body that will have that same stopping effect and those areas are pretty hard to strike accurately on an unarmed opponent never mind one wielding a giant club with bad intentions. Add to that the fact the that the person with the knife needs to rush in order to do their attack, that most people who carry knives for 'self-defense' are mall-ninjas and that fact that most people in the US have trained to swing a bat to hit fast moving targets since elementary school: Advantage Bat.

#50 Posted by RandomHero666 (3174 posts) -

I don't know what kind of bats you knife supporters have, the one I have would explode a head, and smash any bone it hit, so even if the knife guy put his arm out to deflect it to get a stab in.. bye bye arm