Legal Tender: The Root of all Evil.

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Suicrat

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#1  Edited By Suicrat

As I've long since promised (and long-since neglected to write), this is my thread discussing how and why taxation are forms of theft, and why adding to the debt burden of the U.S. Taxpayer adverseley affects the purchasing power of the world's working poor. This will be a long post, and I'm betting that even the people who asked me to write this to explain myself will want to consume it piecemeal (or simply not at all). Because of this, I've decided to break it down into sections:

1: A Brief Discourse on Gresham's Law

2: What is Legal Tender?

3: The Folly of “Progressive” Tax

4: The Hidden Regressive Tax

5: Aren't Tax Cuts Good?

6: Towards an End to the Slave State

You can read this in segments (or not at all) if you wish. If you wish to read a particular section, simply “ctrl+F” the beginning of the title you want to jump to (including the numbers and colons) and hit enter twice, the exact text you see above will directly connote each of the six sections.

 

1: A Brief Discourse on Gresham's Law


I have always been fascinated by 'scientific' laws that constitute attempts to frame human behaviour in either a pessimistic or optimistic light. Gresham's Law is an example of the former. For those of you who don't know what it is, it's an observation made by 16th Century banker, Sir Thomas Gresham. The observation was in regard to bimetalic standards of the English economy during his lifetime. Bimetalism is an economic system whereby there are two precious-metal-backed currencies occupying the same jurisdiction, and a government (or some other entity) attempts to codify a standard of value between the two currencies. The theory was that it enabled market-based trade of the two currencies. What resulted was defacement of the good currency (i.e.,the currency whose commodity value is more commensurate with its face value than that of its counterpart), and the eventual monopolization by the bad currency (i.e., the currency whose face value is greater than its commodity value).
 
This is why Gresham's Law is usually stated as “Bad money drives out good”. Of course, we have governments whose primary purpose is to prevent the pessimists from winning the argument, don't we? I mean, if we lived in a Hobbsean “state of nature”, and some philosopher attempted to codify a “scientific law” that said “People will murder each other” based on the observation that people do in fact murder eachother, wouldn't we want a government to come along to pass an act of legislation that said “People can't murder each other”? How this bizarre analogy relates to finance is addressed in the following section. In some ways, establishments (and nationalizations) of Central Reserve Banks represent governments' and the banking industry's attempt to combat this law, but in one very crucial way, these attempts are universal failures.


2: What is “Legal Tender”?


Defacement was the phenomenon that drove out the use of “good” money. This isn't simply drawing ruby lipstick on Queen Elizabeth or Thomas Jefferson's face, this was the process whereby a few enterprising individuals found a way to double the benefit of their money. They would shave the metal on the face and edges of their coins, collected the shavings and sold their collected weight for the metal's commodity value, and then redeemed the 'defaced' money for goods and services in the coin's notional value. This process was weakly combated by criminalization of “defacement” and then eventually the defaced money was simply phased out. 

 Two government-issue lies
 Two government-issue lies


To prevent this process from occurring again, and to mitigate the potential harm caused by bank runs (i.e., the phenomenon of depositors en masse claiming their savings while the savings are being lent out, causing the bank to collapse), private banks came together and formed central banks, and their existence was usually codified in law. This process also replaced commodity-backed money with what is known as “legal tender”. Look on your bills, and you will notice the political symbols of your jurisdiction, and the words “legal tender” somewhere on most of them. This is what we plaebians use as currency, but it is not money in a strict sense of the word, they are political documents. That is to say, they are instruments of coercion. These notes are promises to pay, not payments themselves. And the only payment promised is the coercive power of government to collect if you fail to pay your taxes. Legal tender is not redeemable for anything in particular (that is not to say they lack any purchasing power), they do not reflect a quantity of anything, and their purchasing power continues to decay as a result of inflation in the supply of these currencies. Essentially, trading in dollars, euros, and pounds is trading in promissory notes of taxation. This is why the greater the volume of commerce you make in your jurisdiction's currency means the greater amount you are taxed. This is the crux of the next segment of this post.


3: The Folly of “Progressive” Tax

 
Many statists (on both wings of the political divide) insist that progressive taxation is the best way of funding government services in a mixed economy (anyone who says any sort of tax is a good thing for a capitalist economy needs to check his premises). The conventional wisdom goes that because the poor are just as deserving of services like plumbing, roads, education, and healthcare as the wealthy are, but are unable to afford them in the current mixed economy, taking a greater amount from the rich and a lesser amount from the poor is justified. After all, does this not mirror transactions in the markets that do operate somewhat openly? Does the wealthy man not pay more for his Jaguar than a poor man pays for his Kia? Indeed this logic seems to bare out some sense, but it does not entirely square with what ends up happening in reality.
 
Poor people buy products and services from those with the financial wherewithal to hire other poor people to provide them. As taxes on the wealthy increase, so to do the pressures increase on both their capacity to demand and their capacity to supply. For instance a tax on capital gains is a tax on loanable or funds. If that wealth was not taken from the earner of the capital gain, it could be used to invest in a new employee, a new business venture, or a new charitible project. This wealth could be used to create new wealth, and to drive up the productive capacity (and therefore drive down costs) for the economy as a whole. The other side of it is the price that is then charged to the consumer in exchange for goods and services. The cost of a good or service tends to reflect the cost associated with the endeavours that went into producing the good or service. Machinery and knowledge to make the item, workers to assemble and package it, and shippers to distribute it. When you buy something, the money you put down is paying for all of these things. But there is another cost that producers must contend with: the cost associated with being taxed.
 
In order to recoup those losses, prices on goods are driven up in the wider economy. When prices increase, the wealthy and the moderately wealthy have a portion of that wealth base in savings to insulate them from a higher cost of living. Whereas the working poor generally save a smaller portion of their income than the wealthy, and subsequently a larger portion of their earnings goes to day-to-day sustenance than that of wealthy people. This makes them more acutely sensitive to increases in the cost of living, which is a similar problem, but not identical to the problem of inflation, a subject to be discussed presently.


4: The Hidden Regressive Tax

 
Many people (understandably) tend to mistakenly equate increases in prices and cost of living with inflation. While these tend to have similar deleterious effects on the purchasing power of the working poor, they are not always of the same source, and do not always reflect the same types of government interventions in the economy. The reason why these things get mistakenly equated is because there are basically two different ways inflation is measured. The first reflects this common mistake, the second is something slightly different. Governments of various jurisdictions, and the United Nations as well keep extensive statistics on economic activity. Inflation is one of the phenomenae government statistics bureaus tend to focus a great deal on, but the way they measure it is a reflection of selection bias.
 

Governments tend to track inflation by various methods, but the most common is known as the “Consumer Price Index” or CPI. This data is based on measuring the cost of a weighted “basket” of consumer goods that the average household will tend to consume in a given period of time. But at various times, various items are not reflected in inflation. For instance, the cost of food and energy no longer are reflected in U.S. Federal measurements of CPI, and federal reserve interest rates, and other monopolistic price policies (e.g., minimum wage) are reflective of the CPI, not the other way around. This means crucial areas of the economy are blind spots when statisticians are trying to quantify something as nebulous and furtive as purchasing power. If stock prices, energy, labour, and food are not included in CPI measurements, then one's attempts to use CPI as an index of purchasing power fluctuation will fall somewhat short because, energy, industry, food, and investment are the means by which our lives are sustained, and planned for in the future.
 
So again, this is not what I refer to when I call “inflation” a form of theft, what I am referring to is inflation of the supply of money relative to the amount of productive capacity in a given economy. By any objective measure, this rate has increased rapidly in the last couple of decades, and precipitously in the last year.

No Caption Provided

 As you can see, the rate of increase in the supply of U.S. Dollars is approaching the rate of singularity (which is in and of itself completely fucking insane). Unfortunately, the Real GDP graph (i.e., the bottom graph) doesn't go back all the way to the founding of the federal reserve, but as you can see there is nowhere near a 1:1 correlation between GDP growth and money supply growth, they are not at all related. One fluctuates wildly, while the other is in a continuous upward trend. This upward trend reflects the continuous theft of purchasing power from the private economy by the U.S. Government, its Federal Reserve bank, and the Private banks who borrow money from the Fed.

When government budget requirements fall short of its revenue, the government's recourse is to print the shortfall. This process obviously does not take the 20 dollar bill sitting in your wallet out of your wallet, but what it does do is diminish that 20 dollar bill's purchasing power. How does it do that?

Well, as you can see, the amount of legal tender in an economy has no real relation to the amount of productive capacity of an economy, so when a government commandeers currently-existing productive capacity in order to achieve an objective (such as building a road, buying your grandma her prescription drugs, et cetera), it takes the access to that portion of capacity away from the marketplace. This is how inflation is a form of theft, it is not a theft of dollars directly (like taxes are), it is a theft of purchasing power from the dollars that previously existed.
 
This is why the working poor are most adversely affected by inflation of money supply. Wealthier people, companies, and and those with superior credit ratings, when they have a funding shortfall, are able to borrow money (either from investors, depositors, or from their own currently-existing savings) to cross that gap, whereas the working poor are have no such recourse, and can only bargain collectively for an increase in purchasing power, or simply work more hours. However, the solution to this problem is not necessarily precipitous tax or funding cuts by governments, and I will explain why in the following section.

5: Aren't Tax Cuts Good?

 
The conventional wisdom on the part of conservatives is that since “all taxes are bad”, it would logically follow that “all reductions in tax are good”, and generally speaking, I tend to side with the notion that the less victims of theft there are in the world, the better off the world is, but the problem is that tax credits, cuts, and subsidies usually constitute net transfers of wealth, not reductions in state-imposed burden.

Consider, for example, the “Bush tax cuts”. These tax cuts were done in the wake of military spending increases, which increased the debt for FY 2003 by $60 000 000 000 and was estimated to add to the deficit $340 000 000 000 by the end of the Bush Administration. In other words, the wealthiest were required to pay billions of dollars less in taxes for a few years (which is a good thing, but only marginally) at the expense of everyone (and, as illustrated earlier, the least wealthy most acutely) for years to come (which is a very very bad thing). This means, on the balance, this tax cut actually increased the amount of theft the government would need to commit in order to fund its future operations, which illustrates that cutting taxes isn't always a way of mitigating the amount of theft a government commits. If simply cutting taxes is not the solution, what could be? Let's discuss this matter in the final section.

 

6: Towards an End to the Slave State

 
 As I have asserted, cutting taxes are not the cure-all to the problem of the ever-diminishing value of labour. Government spending must be decreased, commensurate with these cuts in taxes, and eventually federal reserve systems of finance need to be phased out, but what can we replace it with that wouldn't lead to total anarchy and chaos?

As I have insisted in the past, liberty and anarchy are not one in the same. Quite simply you cannot have a free society without an institution whose role is retaliation as a means of deterring the initiation of force. And it has to be one institution (per given geographic area), you cannot have a competition in this field. Competitions in the use of force are wars. No sane person thinks war is preferable to slavery. A true moralist would realize that both are evil, and ought to be avoided. But how can we go about freeing ourselves from both? Well, no one believes there is a pure, perfect, or permanent solution to this problem. But adding to the financing responsibilities of governments, and increasing their power over the private economy are the causes, and so they should be avoided.

The best replacement for a system of taxation (after, not before dismantling monopolies in industries that do not involve the act of governance) I have come across is what is referred to by some as contract insurance. In essence, a government already has the responsibilities that secure its role as the primary deterrent against force: courts of law, criminal justice, military, and the police, and all of these convey genuine value to citizens (when they are employed justly and equitably). It is good that people get punished if they commit a crime, and it is good that a written contract can be backed up in a court of law, and these endeavours have value. However, you can't justly set up a system whereby citizens voluntarily pay to be protected from criminals, because this would simply devolve into a system where people pay to be protected from criminal prosecution. Such a system would not be free, since all the victims would be oppressed by all the wealthiest of criminals.
 
However, governments can and do receive funds commensurate with economic activity. Charging this payment on a voluntary basis, and making it more direct – i.e., insuring the obligations expressed in a contract for a deductible – can prevent a system of bribery from taking place. This is because the only contractual obligations that would be insured by the government are those contracts which both parties agree the government should insure it. Now you might say “corporations are cost-cutting entities. If they can avoid paying a cost, they will, then the government will end up with nothing, and society will end up without a government.” This is partially true. However, corporations do not shy away from all costs: they do not shy away from the cost of production, the cost of marketing, or any other cost that brings their profit margin an over-all benefit. The same would be true of contract insurance. Companies and individuals exchange billions of dollars every day in mercantile and stock markets. These transactions occur at a fast pace because the contractual obligations that underwrite these activities have the protection of Civil Law. That is to say, for example, if the millions of dollars company A paid for x amount of barrels of oil does not get them their oil, they can sue the company B for the damages incurred for having that contract breached. In other words, contracts that are actually backed by Civil Law (and not just word-of-mouth obligation) have value in the marketplace. So, a pre-defined portion of these billions of dollars could be taken voluntarily from both parties by the government, and used to fund its limited scope of programs.

Of course, you cannot replace income, capital gains, sales, property, and inflation taxes with a single system of payment over night. What needs to happen first is a cautious and prudent dismantling of government-controlled (and government-protected) monopolies and oligopolies, parallel with decreases in taxation, alongside a refusal to recognize the contract of any bank with a reserve ratio of less than 100%, and after all that, but not before, can we replace arbitrary theft of wealth with voluntary systems of payment across the entire economy.

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#2  Edited By nail1080

This is giantbomb.com right?

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#3  Edited By ververdan0226

I'm not sure if I should read through this and put it in my spotlight or silently weep in the corner.

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#4  Edited By Gizmo

*glances thread title*
 
*clicks into thread*
 
 

*scrolls to bottom*
 
*clicks on return button*

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Suicrat

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#5  Edited By Suicrat

Ack, just realized I promise to tie this whole process in to the world's working poor, but failed to do so in the text body. That can be demonstrated by examining what commodities and properties can be traded in global markets using the U.S. Dollar. Oil and steel are two such commodities, and these commodities are used indirectly and directly by corporations, governments, and individuals around the world.

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#6  Edited By Gizmo
@Suicrat said:
" Ack, just realized I promise to tie this whole process in to the world's working poor, but failed to do so in the text body. That can be demonstrated by examining what commodities and properties can be traded in global markets using the U.S. Dollar. Oil and steel are two such commodities, and these commodities are used indirectly and directly by corporations, governments, and individuals around the world. "

 It's been a long day
 It's been a long day
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RsistncE

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#7  Edited By RsistncE
@nail1080 said:
" This is giantbomb.com right? "
I put forth this same question.
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#8  Edited By kirisame

Thanks for the post Suicrat. After reading your replies in other threads I was interested in where you were coming from. Since you kept away from hyperbole and hubris even when there was a lot of.. clever shouting?.. going on, it stood out.
Your warning's right, this would take a couple readings. The last section's a bit harder to parse than the others, but that might just be because my grammar/vocab comes up short.

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Suicrat

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#9  Edited By Suicrat
@RsistncE: I appreciate your bumping of my thread, but this is in the Giant Bomb Off-topic forums, and guess what: finance is off the topic of video games, which means it can be discussed in a forum called "Off-topic" on a website about video games!
 
Surely you are capable of processing the meanings of the words "off" and "topic", right?
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#10  Edited By ninjakiller

Fuck, Suicrat is Ron Paul. 

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#11  Edited By kirisame
@RsistncE: I think he did this as a request.. a couple of times Suicrat replied in some other Off-Topic and General Discussion threads, and mentioned some of his political/economic views. A couple of the posters he was debating with wanted him to explain what he meant in detail but he said he didn't want to put a wall of text in the middle of a thread. Someone suggested that he should put it in a blog post instead.
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#12  Edited By CactusWolf

I haven't had time to read this just yet, I need to get going, I'll read it when I return.. But I thought I'd ask whether or not you've ever read Marx's Capital (or Das Kapital initially) before? 
 
It is in a bit of contrast when it comes to your specific opinions on the matter, but it's certainly an interesting read.

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#13  Edited By Suicrat
@ninjakiller said:
" Fuck, Suicrat is Ron Paul.  "
Ugh, Godlessness, no. While he was certainly the least of the evils of the 2008 election, his views and mine do not square on a number of issues.
 
Primarily:
 
  • his views on abortion (you can't be a capitalist and opposed to abortion at the same time. It breaks the law of identity. Either all persons have liberty or they do not. Foetii are not persons and are not capable of liberty, but let's NOT discuss that in this thread.)
  • his belief in the supremacy of the gold standard (capitalism is opposed to government-dictated standards. If the market wants standardization, the market will pay for standardization voluntarily, it will not be imposed.)
  • His inability to provide a moral defence for capitalism. (The Conservativist argument from tradition does not hold any water.)
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#14  Edited By Crocio

Well, Great work!
Quite an interesting read.
Bookmarked.

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#15  Edited By crunchUK
@Suicrat said:
" Ack, just realized I promise to tie this whole process in to the world's working poor, but failed to do so in the text body. That can be demonstrated by examining what commodities and properties can be traded in global markets using the U.S. Dollar. Oil and steel are two such commodities, and these commodities are used indirectly and directly by corporations, governments, and individuals around the world. "
but what about the not working poor?
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Suicrat

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#16  Edited By Suicrat
@wordsgohere: I look forward to reading your response (whenever it comes, no rush ;)).
 

I've read my share of Marx. I haven't read Das Kapital, but I have read (a translation of) The Communist Manifesto. His flaw is in his premise of labour theory, not his observations. He is right that Europe during the 19th Century was a slave society, but what he wanted to replace it with was nothing better. Moreover his labour theory of value is flawed because, while labour is one important source of value in economics, it is not the source of value -- nor is it the primary source of value. Ideas that shape labour and guide it toward productive endeavour are what give labour its value. It can best be conceptualized by the following thought experiment.
 
Imagine Sisyphus, rolling his boulder up and down for eternity, except there are no gods to force him to do it, he rolls the boulder of his own voliton. Imagine he one day gets the notion from his friend Karl Marx that his rolling of this boulder up is somehow valuable to people, and that he deserves people's money by virtue of his torturous effort, rolling the boulder up the hill, seeing it fall back down again, and repeating this process. His friend Karl Marx would tell him "Okay, the way you convince the people of your labour's value to them is by a violent revolution and massive, coercive transfer of wealth from everyone else, to you." His other friend, Suicrat, would tell him he's wrong. The best, noblest, and most sustainable way to convince people of the value of your labour is to find a way to put resistors on your boulder, and turn your effort into electrical energy, which can light homes, power computers, and televisions, and electrocardiograms. If Sisyphus were intellectually lazy, he'd take the hatchet given to him by Marx and cut me down, and then proceed to cut down everyone else who stood in his way. If Sisyphus were capable of long-term, self-interested thought, he would either: a) realize I'm right that the best way to prove your value to someone is to demonstrate it materially, and work towards inventing a turbine system for his boulder, or (b) realize I'm right that the best way to prove your value to someone is to demonstrate it materially, and torturing yourself by pushing a boulder up a hill until you die conveys no value to anyone.
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#17  Edited By CactusWolf
@Suicrat: Alright. I'm heading home now, and I'll see about typing up an extended response later on. Keep in mind, my memory is awful. If you find I don't respond, send me a PM reminder at some point. 
 
While I'm at it here's Capital: Volume I if you're ever interested.
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Suicrat

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#18  Edited By Suicrat
@crunchUK: That should not be a matter settled by force either.
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#19  Edited By Icil

Good wall-o-txt. I agree with your problems in regard to our legal tender, but I disagree with your views on taxes.

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#20  Edited By lilburtonboy7489
@wordsgohere said:
" @Suicrat: Alright. I'm heading home now, and I'll see about typing up an extended response later on. Keep in mind, my memory is awful. If you find I don't respond, send me a PM reminder at some point. 
 
While I'm at it here's Capital: Volume I if you're ever interested. "
Yea, my favorite part of that book is on the labor theory of value..... That's priceless.  
 
According to Mr. Marx, if 1 man finds a diamond, that diamond is worse less than a chair which took 2 people to make it.  
 
That's a fantastic economist there. 
 
@suicrat, i'll read it all in about 2 hours :)
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#21  Edited By CactusWolf
@lilburtonboy7489: Uhh... Perhaps you'd be better off with this one.
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#22  Edited By lilburtonboy7489

I guess I only disagree in two places.  
 
1) GDP growth and the money supply are correlated. When you inflate the money supply, the GDP skyrockets due to the expansion that happens from the low interest rates. However, this is what creates the bubble. Right now, the bubble is bursting. Since interest rates cannot drop lower than 0%, inflation won't keep expandint the bubble. The recession/depression HAS to happen in order for the bad loans and misallocation of resources to clear.  
 
So while we both agree that inflation and central banking in general is evil, the whole purpose of politicians adopting keynesianism is to give short run bursts of economic expansion from printing money. They don't care about the bubbles they create, only the next election.  
 
2) Of course, I don't agree that there should be any legitimate initial coercive power for the same reason I disagree with government. So I do prefer anarchy. And in my view, spontaneous and unsystematic scuffles are preferrable to legitimized, systematic, ever expanding and never ending slavery. 

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lilburtonboy7489

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#23  Edited By lilburtonboy7489
@wordsgohere said:
" @lilburtonboy7489: Uhh... Perhaps you'd be better off with this one. "
Nope. I know all about him. Perhaps you should read up on this. 
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#24  Edited By CactusWolf
@lilburtonboy7489 said:

" @wordsgohere said:

" @lilburtonboy7489: Uhh... Perhaps you'd be better off with this one. "

Nope. I know all about him. Perhaps you should read up on this.  "
About who? Marxism is a Socio-Economic ideology. Not a person. 
 
At any rate, I recommended that, because to understand a part of Marxism, you have to understand the whole of it... Which apparently you do not. I suppose it's taken me years of study though to get to this point. 
 
This is, after all, a very basic reading list: 
 
 Marxist-Leninist classics:
The Communist Manifesto - Marx/Engels
Socialism: Utopian and Scientific - Engels
The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State - Engels
What is to be Done? - Lenin
The Rights of Nations to Self-Determination - Lenin
Imperialism, The Highest Stage of Capitalism - Lenin
The State and Revolution - Lenin
"Left-Wing" Communism, An Infantile Disorder - Lenin
Anarchism or Socialism? - Stalin
Marxism and the National Question - Stalin
The Foundations of Leninism - Stalin
Dialectical and Historical Materialism - Stalin
Report to the VII Congress - Dimitrov
Toward Soviet America - William Z Foster
Working Class USA: The Power and the Movement - Gus Hall
Dialectical Materialism by V.G. Afanasyev
Historical Materialism by V.G. Afanasyev 

 History:
Socialism Betrayed: Behind the Collapse of the Soviet Union by Roger Keeran and Thomas Kenney
Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti
Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II by William Blum
To Kill a Nation: The Attack on Yugoslavia by Michael Parenti

 And that list is pretty sparse. 
At any rate, I've got little more to say about this today. I feel like shit, so I don't plan on going any deeper into this topic until tomorrow probably. Hope you don't mind , Suicrat.
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#25  Edited By Suicrat
@lilburtonboy7489: GDP and "Real GDP" are not one in the same. The second graph in my first post is Gross Domestic Product in Gold Production, which is to demonstrate the Austrian School's point that inflation is not tied to real economic growth, but tied to the loss of purchasing power.
 
As for your second point, you are perpetrating the fallacy of false dichotmy. Neither slavery nor violent conflict are good, and we don't have to choose one or the other. We can choose a society with an institution that does not initiate force and effectively deters the initiation of force by punishing those who do, and by guaranteeing obligations expressed in contracts. In other words, we can choose a government that governs (and only governs). You know, using previously-existing institutions, democracy, and discourse; not armed conflict.
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Suicrat

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#26  Edited By Suicrat
@wordsgohere: But he's right to point out that the entirety of his argument is based on the flawed premise of labour theory.
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CactusWolf

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#27  Edited By CactusWolf
@Suicrat: Not particularly, no. 
 
It's misinterpretation. The Labor Theory is simply a part of the whole that is Marxism-Leninism. As I said just a moment ago. A better understanding of the whole of Marxism-Leninism (or at the very least reading Capital) would grant a better understanding of Labor theory. 
 
I apologize if I'm not being as clear as I need to be for the moment. But, again, I'll explain what I mean tomorrow. For now I'm going to bed.
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slinky6

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#28  Edited By slinky6

I promise I'll read this at some point.   Seen your stuff in other threads defending capitalism.   Good stuff.

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Urmean

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#29  Edited By Urmean

I'm sure this brick wall was written very well, and I'd like to read it.

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rateoforange

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#30  Edited By rateoforange

I thought this post was going to be about 'Lethal Tender', a budget doom clone from the early 90s.
 

No Caption Provided
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VisariLoyalist

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#31  Edited By VisariLoyalist

Well sorry buddy we don't have enough gold coin for ya :)

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#32  Edited By RsistncE
@Suicrat said:
" @RsistncE: I appreciate your bumping of my thread, but this is in the Giant Bomb Off-topic forums, and guess what: finance is off the topic of video games, which means it can be discussed in a forum called "Off-topic" on a website about video games!  Surely you are capable of processing the meanings of the words "off" and "topic", right? "
I was just kidding duder, cool yer jets. It was a great post, and lots of thought and effort went into it. Happy?
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#33  Edited By RsistncE
@kirisame: Yeah I guess I was just deceptively pointing out how it was really just a overly long, ideologically driven rant on said subject. Either way, doesn't bother me. Carry on gentlemen.
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singular

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#34  Edited By singular

Very good explanation of the current situation. But you solution would fail because of the same reason all the other systems more or less fail. Because of the human factor. Greed, fear of loss and uncertainity will always bring every system of social interaction involving many people to a collapse. I once heard someone say "Money isn't the root of all evil. Assholes with money are the root of all evil."
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Alex_Murphy

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#35  Edited By Alex_Murphy

I hear you man. Any time your property is taken from you, without your consent and under threats of violence, it's theft. And if there has to be taxes (and I'm not saying there does) at least give me a list of check boxes so I can decide how you spend the money you're stealing from me. I personally wouldn't spend my money studying the contents of owl vomet, but the goverment sees nothing wrong with taking my money and using it to do just that.

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Suicrat

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#36  Edited By Suicrat
@RsistncE said:

" @Suicrat said:

" @RsistncE: I appreciate your bumping of my thread, but this is in the Giant Bomb Off-topic forums, and guess what: finance is off the topic of video games, which means it can be discussed in a forum called "Off-topic" on a website about video games!  Surely you are capable of processing the meanings of the words "off" and "topic", right? "
I was just kidding duder, cool yer jets. It was a great post, and lots of thought and effort went into it. Happy? "
I don't want your approval, I'd rather have your insight. I just felt the need to respond to each post early on, because it was kind of slow-going at first. Sorry for misinterpreting your sarcasm.
 
 
@SinGulaR said:

" Very good explanation of the current situation. But you solution would fail because of the same reason all the other systems more or less fail. Because of the human factor. Greed, fear of loss and uncertainity will always bring every system of social interaction involving many people to a collapse. I once heard someone say "Money isn't the root of all evil. Assholes with money are the root of all evil." "

If human fallibility is the thing that prevents humans from attempting any sort of positive reform of society (or any other thing, great or small), then we'll be stuck with all the avoidable aspects of human fallibility as well as the unavoidable aspects.
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lilburtonboy7489

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#37  Edited By lilburtonboy7489
@wordsgohere said:
" @Suicrat: Not particularly, no.   It's misinterpretation. The Labor Theory is simply a part of the whole that is Marxism-Leninism. As I said just a moment ago. A better understanding of the whole of Marxism-Leninism (or at the very least reading Capital) would grant a better understanding of Labor theory.   I apologize if I'm not being as clear as I need to be for the moment. But, again, I'll explain what I mean tomorrow. For now I'm going to bed. "
What do you mean no? I did not misinterpret a single thing. Marx did not contribute anything to economics. I'll admit that he is possibly the most influential man to live in the last 150 years, but he was an awful economist.  If you want to critique capitalism, then do it by using a neo-keynesian argument. Those fail as well, but at least you won't get made fun of.  
 
And I don't need a better understanding of the labor theory of value. I know what it is, and it's a joke. Any economist will tell you that it's a joke, even socialists. And Marx largely based his theory on this fallacy. There is no refuting that. 
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oldschool

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#38  Edited By oldschool
@kirisame said:
" @RsistncE: I think he did this as a request.. a couple of times Suicrat replied in some other Off-Topic and General Discussion threads, and mentioned some of his political/economic views. A couple of the posters he was debating with wanted him to explain what he meant in detail but he said he didn't want to put a wall of text in the middle of a thread. Someone suggested that he should put it in a blog post instead. "
That was request was by me.   
 
Thanks Suicrat.  I make this initial post as an acknowledgement of your well thought out post.  When it is late in the evening and the kids have gone to bed, I will have a good read and look forward to an intertesting discourse for a while to come.  Unlike some others, I find a debate on potical and social matters fascinating.  Sure this is a game site, but it has an Off Topic board for a reason.  Anyone who doesn't care can just ignore it. 
 
Well done on so much thought.  I look forward to putting thought into the debate.
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lilburtonboy7489

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#39  Edited By lilburtonboy7489
@Suicrat said:
" @lilburtonboy7489: GDP and "Real GDP" are not one in the same. The second graph in my first post is Gross Domestic Product in Gold Production, which is to demonstrate the Austrian School's point that inflation is not tied to real economic growth, but tied to the loss of purchasing power.  As for your second point, you are perpetrating the fallacy of false dichotmy. Neither slavery nor violent conflict are good, and we don't have to choose one or the other. We can choose a society with an institution that does not initiate force and effectively deters the initiation of force by punishing those who do, and by guaranteeing obligations expressed in contracts. In other words, we can choose a government that governs (and only governs). You know, using previously-existing institutions, democracy, and discourse; not armed conflict. "
I know, real GDP isn't adjusted for inflation, you have to use the GDP deflator to figure out real GDP. But my point still stands, real GDP does increase with inflation because there is a hige expansion of capital goods for production. This is very real. The boom is not fake per se, but the boom can't be sustained because the savings which the interest rates indicated never existed. That's when the bust hits. So while the boom is started by fake interest rates, the following investments are very real, followed by very real bust from misallocation.  
 
It's true that purchasing power does decrease through all of this, but that doesn't mean the capital goods which resulted from the expansion don't exist. The very problem however, is that they exist when they shouldn't.  
 
And as for the second thing, I disagree. I believe there are two choices: Systematic coercion, or random coercion. 
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#40  Edited By CactusWolf
@lilburtonboy7489 said:
" @wordsgohere said:
What do you mean no? I did not misinterpret a single thing. Marx did not contribute anything to economics. I'll admit that he is possibly the most influential man to live in the last 150 years, but he was an awful economist.  If you want to critique capitalism, then do it by using a neo-keynesian argument. Those fail as well, but at least you won't get made fun of.   And I don't need a better understanding of the labor theory of value. I know what it is, and it's a joke. Any economist will tell you that it's a joke, even socialists. And Marx largely based his theory on this fallacy. There is no refuting that.  "
This is why I generally don't bother debating on internet forums. It's like arguing with a child. No sense of maturity to be found. I prefer in-person discussion. 
 
You do need a better understanding of it under Marx. It's been made perfectly clear there. Your lax understanding of Marxism-Leninism as a whole is the problem. I have at least bothered to partake in reading to better my understanding of more than a single argument.
 
I don't know. This has kind of reminded me how stupid these discussions are. Perhaps I'll pass on the extended response. Debate, especially on the internet, I find to be a waste... At least in the realm of this particular subject. My time is better served going back to my studies, I think. 
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Suicrat

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#41  Edited By Suicrat

  @oldschool said:

" @kirisame said:

" @RsistncE: I think he did this as a request.. a couple of times Suicrat replied in some other Off-Topic and General Discussion threads, and mentioned some of his political/economic views. A couple of the posters he was debating with wanted him to explain what he meant in detail but he said he didn't want to put a wall of text in the middle of a thread. Someone suggested that he should put it in a blog post instead. "

That was request was by me.    Thanks Suicrat.  I make this initial post as an acknowledgement of your well thought out post.  When it is late in the evening and the kids have gone to bed, I will have a good read and look forward to an intertesting discourse for a while to come.  Unlike some others, I find a debate on potical and social matters fascinating.  Sure this is a game site, but it has an Off Topic board for a reason.  Anyone who doesn't care can just ignore it.  Well done on so much thought.  I look forward to putting thought into the debate. "
Indeed, this is our own way of having a bit of fun. In addition to watching whacky videos, comparing achievement scores, and talking about boss fights. RsistncE and I have said our apologies on this matter though.
 
P.S.: Thank you for being Australian! I couldn't find the words "legal tender" on any of the images of the Euro or the Pound that I found, but of course that doesn't mean they're not coercion-backed promissory notes.
 
 

@lilburtonboy7489

said:

" @Suicrat said:

" @lilburtonboy7489: GDP and "Real GDP" are not one in the same. The second graph in my first post is Gross Domestic Product in Gold Production, which is to demonstrate the Austrian School's point that inflation is not tied to real economic growth, but tied to the loss of purchasing power.  As for your second point, you are perpetrating the fallacy of false dichotmy. Neither slavery nor violent conflict are good, and we don't have to choose one or the other. We can choose a society with an institution that does not initiate force and effectively deters the initiation of force by punishing those who do, and by guaranteeing obligations expressed in contracts. In other words, we can choose a government that governs (and only governs). You know, using previously-existing institutions, democracy, and discourse; not armed conflict. "

I know, real GDP isn't adjusted for inflation, you have to use the GDP deflator to figure out real GDP. But my point still stands, real GDP does increase with inflation because there is a hige expansion of capital goods for production. This is very real. The boom is not fake per se, but the boom can't be sustained because the savings which the interest rates indicated never existed. That's when the bust hits. So while the boom is started by fake interest rates, the following investments are very real, followed by very real bust from misallocation.   It's true that purchasing power does decrease through all of this, but that doesn't mean the capital goods which resulted from the expansion don't exist. The very problem however, is that they exist when they shouldn't.   And as for the second thing, I disagree. I believe there are two choices: Systematic coercion, or random coercion.  "
Okay, on point one we're kind of coming at the same thing from slightly different angles. I was showing that real economic growth does occur, but that inflating the supply of money isn't what causes it, it's the innovations and discoveries that do.
 
On the second point, those are essentially oversimplifications. You can have systematic retaliatory coercion without systematic initiated coercion. You can work towards an equitable system of laws with criminal justice that deters private initiations of force, and judicial bodies and freedom of expression (e.g., a free market in journalism) to prevent and deter state initiations of force.
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Suicrat

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#42  Edited By Suicrat
@wordsgohere: I don't wish to pull you from your studies, but I want to give you an opportunity to defend Marxist-Leninism, and any of the other theoretical systems that fall under the (admittedly) broad socialist/communist umbrella.
 
What aspects of these theories vindicate Labour Theory, and how do they justify violent class struggle as a means of cementing labour theory into economic structures?
 
Maybe my Sisyphus analogy can help explain the Free Market Capitalist criticism of Labour Theory, and from there we can proceed to understand Labour Theory as the Marxists and his descendants see it?
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Dr_Feelgood38

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#43  Edited By Dr_Feelgood38
@wordsgohere: Hey, woah. Don't do that if only for the observers like myself. This is way out of my comfort zone but I find the debates fascinating and refreshing. I say take your time, don't let it get in the way of your studies but do write a response when you find the time. :)
 
Awesome blog Suicrat. Very informative and extremely well written.
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lilburtonboy7489

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#44  Edited By lilburtonboy7489
@wordsgohere said:
" @lilburtonboy7489 said:
" @wordsgohere said:
What do you mean no? I did not misinterpret a single thing. Marx did not contribute anything to economics. I'll admit that he is possibly the most influential man to live in the last 150 years, but he was an awful economist.  If you want to critique capitalism, then do it by using a neo-keynesian argument. Those fail as well, but at least you won't get made fun of.   And I don't need a better understanding of the labor theory of value. I know what it is, and it's a joke. Any economist will tell you that it's a joke, even socialists. And Marx largely based his theory on this fallacy. There is no refuting that.  "
This is why I generally don't bother debating on internet forums. It's like arguing with a child. No sense of maturity to be found. I prefer in-person discussion. 
 
You do need a better understanding of it under Marx. It's been made perfectly clear there. Your lax understanding of Marxism-Leninism as a whole is the problem. I have at least bothered to partake in reading to better my understanding of more than a single argument.  I don't know. This has kind of reminded me how stupid these discussions are. Perhaps I'll pass on the extended response. Debate, especially on the internet, I find to be a waste... At least in the realm of this particular subject. My time is better served going back to my studies, I think.  "
1) What did I say that was so immature and childish?  
 
2) What do I need a better understanding of with regard to Marx's economics? Come on now, specifics. 
 
3) I don't believe you have read much of Marx at all, or else you would be giving all kinds of specific arguments (poor ones).  
 
4) Where have you showed that you have tried to better your understanding of multiple arguments? All you have done is talked about one argument, that of Marx.  
 
5) Why are you saying "at least", when I am a strict Austrian believer who got my degree in economics from the University of Wisconsin, one of the most statist econ departments in the country. I went there specifically to get a better understanding of neo-keynesianism.  
 
6) Go ahead, please do defend Marx's complex Labor Theory of Value. Since you seem to have such an amazing understanding, I would like to here someone in support of it (4 years of college, 5 econ professors, and never one person that took Marx seriously...this should be good).  
 
But I do agree, you better get back to your studies. 
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BiffMcBlumpkin

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#45  Edited By BiffMcBlumpkin

 @Suicrat said:

 
 
            
 
No Caption Provided
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CactusWolf

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#46  Edited By CactusWolf
@Dr_Feelgood38:@Suicrat: 
 Yeah, I apologize. Had a migraine, made me hostile.  I generally stick with 3-5 hours a day in terms of studying (not exclusively Marxism-Leninism of course) and decided to get that out of the way as well. 
 
I'll probably end up posting something more responding to your arguments at some point, Suicrat. I'm tired now, so I think I'll head to bed. It's my third day awake, if I recall correctly.
 
EDIT: I am of the belief that Biff has already made the best argument in the thread, however.
EDIT 2: Something else I feel worth referencing is that I'm not generally in the habit of debating online much anyways. After all, in most cases, both sides are pretty firmly set in their opinions. And I'm going to assume that's especially true in this case.
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#47  Edited By Hats
@wordsgohere said:
EDIT: I am of the belief that Biff has already made the best argument in the thread, however. 
EDIT 2: Something else I feel worth referencing is that I'm not generally in the habit of debating online much anyways. After all, in most cases, both sides are pretty firmly set in their opinions. And I'm going to assume that's especially true in this case. "
This
 
very nice pic biff
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Branthog

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#48  Edited By Branthog

Who comes to discuss general politics at a video game site? What's next, going to FreeRepublic and Huffingtonpost to debate which rendition of Megaman was superior?

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CactusWolf

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#49  Edited By CactusWolf
@Branthog said:
" Who comes to discuss general politics at a video game site? What's next, going to FreeRepublic and Huffingtonpost to debate which rendition of Megaman was superior? "
Might as well.
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OwnlyUzinWonHan

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#50  Edited By OwnlyUzinWonHan
@rateoforange said:
" I thought this post was going to be about 'Lethal Tender', a budget doom clone from the early 90s.
 
No Caption Provided
"
If only, that looks awesomely bad.