Let's discuss some religion!

Hey duders. I thought I'd encourage the community to have a discussion about religion. The reason? I generally like this community, and appriciate many of your opinions on stuff that is not related to gaming. Also, religion is a very interesting topic.

I'll kick this off with my two cents on religion. Personally, I've been studying up on Islam as of late. I'm not a man of faith, but I find a lot of the teachings in their holy book to be very interesting. For instance, I'm a proud social democrat, and not to long ago, I actually sat down and read the Quran. Imagine the surprise when I found the blueprint for social democracy in the holy book of this villified religion.

Zakat, which is basically a charity, is one of the five pillars of Islam. It's the giving of a fixed portion of one's wealth as a tax, generally to the administration or government. Keep in mind, this is a required tax, and exists for one reason, and one reason only, to help the poor. Here's a list of the eight groups that qualify for Zakat. This is taken directly from Wikipedia:

1. Those living in absolute poverty (Al-Fuqarā')
2. Those who were restrained because they cannot meet their basic needs (Al-Masākīn)
3. The zakat collectors themselves (Al-Āmilīna 'Alaihā)
4. Non-Muslims who are sympathetic to Islam or wish to convert to Islam.(Al-Mu'allafatu Qulūbuhum)
5. People whom one is attempting to free from slavery or bondage. Also includes paying ransom or blood money (Diyya). (Fir-Riqāb)
6. Those who have incurred overwhelming debts while attempting to satisfy their basic needs (Al-Ghārimīn)
7. Those working in God's way (Fī Sabīlillāh)
8. Children of the street / Travellers (Ibnus-Sabīl)

Interesting stuff, don't you agree?

Now, compare this to the most powerful country in the west, the USA. For a very long time capitalism has been the norm. With Obama there seems to be a rise of social democrats in the country, but it's still very conservative compared to some other western countries, especially in Scandinavia. All the same, the mentality in capitalism is that I'll provide for myself, and you'll provide for yourself. Everyone has equal terms, right? No, of course not. If there ever was such a thing as equal terms, it was long gone after just one generation of capitalism. After that, some would be born rich and with oppurtunities, and others would be born poor. It's the sins of the fathers, basically.

Before I get to side tracked, let me just wrap this up. In the USA, a country where christianity is etched in it's very soul, people have to provide for themselves. In Islamic countries however, people have to provide for each other. It's a law of God. I find that super interesting. So, basically:

Christianity/Captialism: Provide for yourself. Take care of yourself.

Islam/Socialism: Share with those who need it. Be humane.

Of course, there are extremists everywhere. And that's the problem. The media are giving you a false impression of both religions, and this needs to stop. I find it baffeling that Islam is villified, especially after reading up on the religion. Now, please sound off below, and let's hear your thoughts. And let's keep this civil!

I have had too many bad experiences discussing religion, and honestly knowing the internet I can't see this thread ending well. But I just want to say that I very much appreciate what you did and what you're attempting to do with your post.

Not that I'm religous but Christianity shares a lot of the same ideals as Islam. Its not as cut and dry as saying ...

@Legion_ said:

Christianity/Captialism: Provide for yourself. Take care of yourself.

Not to mention that there are very similar stories in both the Bible and the Quran which would mean they share common ground on morals and how one should act.

@Legion_ said:

I'm not a man of faith, but I find a lot of the teachings in their holy book to be very interesting.

While I appreciate the morals that ancient holy books teach, I don't think it's healthy for a society to decide that issues like murder, stealing, lying etc are wrong because God said so. That brings around arguments "if you don't believe in God, what's stopping you from raping and killing everyone you want to?" which makes coexisting really difficult, knowing that the only thing keeping my zealot coworker from murdering me is his faith. What's going to happen when he discovers there's no god?

For the record, I've killed and raped everyone I want to- which is nobody. Bonus points if you know what podcast that phrase came from.

Where's that popcorn gif when you need it.

@Rebel_Scum said:

Not that I'm religous but Christianity shares a lot of the same ideals as Islam. Its not as cut and dry as saying ...

@Legion_ said:

Christianity/Captialism: Provide for yourself. Take care of yourself.

Not to mention that there are very similar stories in both the Bible and the Quran which would mean they share common ground on morals and how one should act.

I completly agree. I was just putting it on the edge. And my point was that the combination of capitalism and christianity is a strange one. There's no doubt that religion has some very good morals that are building blocks in our society. Thing is, there's some really appaling morals as well. And I find it super strange that people just swipe half of the bible under the rug, as if they are now smarter and more evolved than their god. Again, I do not believe in any religion, I just find that mentality very strange.

@Legion_: First off, I moved from a country of social democracy (sweden) after living there for 35 years. While a lot is good with social democracy a lot is also bad. For example, one of the reasons I moved was that the people are easily brainwashed and has a hugely similar mindset. In sweden this could be seen in debates that were so one-sided that you had to ask if it was all a show for the masses, it creates a nanny state that discourages people to question the state and it's agenda and essentially results in a brainwashed country that has no idea that they are brainwashed.

The bottom line of any religious discussion always comes down to that religious people do not listen to reason or any form of evidence that would make them question their religion. This is a serious problem when it comes down to building a society where science is integrated. Looking at the a bible or quran for building a political system is alot worse than looking at present ideas on how to build them, a 1000+ year old book is not anchored in the present and has not seen the same progression that our society has.

Well shit son

OBLIGATORY KORN/HAZE POST

I follow the Hawk, like Borat.

Christopher Hitchens would argue that it is not extremism, but theism itself that is the problem. Of course extremists are by far the worst case, but there is evil to be found in practically every facet of religion. In the east and west.

Almost at the end of God is Not Great and it is fantastic.

pls lock naw pls

angry internet atheists anonymous

@Legion_ said:

Hey duders. I thought I'd encourage the community to have a discussion about religion.

I generally like this community

You fucking liar.

@floodiastus: I don't agree with that at all. Let's say that the basis for socialism is to look out for each other. That doesn't mean that people can't have different opinions. Hell, look at my home country, Norway. For instance, it has always been a long term goal for Norway to donate 1% of our GNP to other countries. The right side however want to decrease this amount, and only give it to african nations. In other words, a life in south america is worth less than a life in africa. I find it disgusting, and I'd imagine everyone with half a mind would to. But no, a lot of people actually support this. A lot of people in Norway are so fucking greedy that I'm ashamed to live here.

And that shows in the election as well. The election is to the fall, and the campaign that the right wingers are running is this: Less tax. And people swallow it whole. Nevermind that the right wing parties haven't found a single way to cover the loss that would come from their tac cuts. Oh, and the tax cuts would be 15 billion. And they have no fucking idea where to get alternative income.

The reason I'm saying this is that there's plenty of room to disagree in a socialist state. Obviously, I can only speak for Norway.

I've been around these parts since '09, and I haven't seen a single religion thread go well. I know that I'm not contributing or being helpful in any way. I don't know what I'm doing, I guess.

Best of luck to you and your thread, duder.

@Legion_ knows more about Zakat than I do...and I'm a Muslim.

Religion for me is like gaming. And Haze is the Korn.

Did I do it right guys?

Religion and Politics in one thread? I see this thread achieving the highest highs in future discourse.

Hail satan.

Religion is something man should of evolved from in the last 500 years.

@PeasantAbuse said:

This is a much better route for this thread to go than what I expect it actually will.

I might be willing to join your cult, errr, religion, for the right price.

Non-Muslims who are sympathetic to Islam or wish to convert to Islam.(Al-Mu'allafatu Qulūbuhum)

$_$

@Rebel_Scum said:

Not that I'm religous but Christianity shares a lot of the same ideals as Islam. Its not as cut and dry as saying ...

@Legion_ said:

Christianity/Captialism: Provide for yourself. Take care of yourself.

Not to mention that there are very similar stories in both the Bible and the Quran which would mean they share common ground on morals and how one should act.

Well, considering both Christianity and Islam (and Judeaism) both follow the same Old Commandants...

On the topic of Capitalism, that ideology was not formed by an economist. It was formed by a theologian that wanted to monetize Christianity so as to broaden its appeal. The fact that Christianity and Capitalism has shared some close cultural ties is not a coincidence.

Anyways, expect plenty of ideological intolerance in this thread. (And little to none of it will come from the religious folks.)

My personal stance:

I'm an Agnostic. It means I hold no belief nor disbelief in a deity or deities. Frankly, there is a lot that is unexplained in the universe, and until it can be explained with science, there remains no explanation except the one we can provide. However, I rely more on knowledge than blind faith. If it has hard evidence, numbers, facts... That is what's important to me: the things we know of.

In essence, lack of proof does not equal lack of existence all the time. My parents became Christians over the last couple of years. It's been an odd experience, as they were not religious people when I was growing up. They actually very firmly believed in choosing your own path when it came to faith. Now they have no issues with forcing Veggie Tales down my 2-year-old nephew's throat. Personally, it makes me uncomfortable to think of that solely because I do believe in the First Amendment rights to the freedom of religious practice. At the same time, not my kid, so not my choice.

Overall, though, I'm not going to sit here and deny their "miracles".

A lot of my foundation ideas (I don't care for "beliefs" in most cases, they are far too permanent) come from the schools of Cynicism, Stoicism, Determinism, Deism, and multiple different places. I also follow the works of many people, and there are two particular pieces of literature helped to influence me in ways that I never imagined: Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion by David Hume and Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. They are fantastic works that really offer some unique perspectives on a range of topics within their particular philosophical standings.

In the end, though...I just don't have the time to be bothered with things like religion. While I'm all for the idea of some dood dying on a cross of his own accord to show mankind how terrible they can be to their own, I'm not for the idea of homosexuals being bad and tattoos being this massive problem. There's just too much persecution and prejudice within every religion for me to find it non-offensive in some way or another.

So yeah, I'm an Agnostic. If God exists, I figure I'll either see him before I die or when I die as I'm at the Pearly Gates being told that I'm not allowed in for refusing to accept him in my heart. If he doesn't exist, I'm not too worried about it. Right now, I've just got a life to live, and I'm going to go ahead and live it.

@Turambar said:

@Rebel_Scum said:

Not that I'm religous but Christianity shares a lot of the same ideals as Islam. Its not as cut and dry as saying ...

@Legion_ said:

Christianity/Captialism: Provide for yourself. Take care of yourself.

Not to mention that there are very similar stories in both the Bible and the Quran which would mean they share common ground on morals and how one should act.

Well, considering both Christianity and Islam (and Judeaism) both follow the same Old Commandants...

On the topic of Capitalism, that ideology was not formed by an economist. It was formed by a theologian that wanted to monetize Christianity so as to broaden its appeal. The fact that Christianity and Capitalism has shared some close cultural ties is not a coincidence.

Anyways, expect plenty of ideological intolerance in this thread. (And little to none of it will come from the religious folks.)

Was capitalism invented by a christian? That's pretty interesting, and new information to me. I'll hit the books on the subject, because I imagine there's a lot of good reading on that subject. Thanks dooder.

Talkin' bout religion on the internet. Nothing can possibly go wrong.

@Legion_: And this is the reason I moved, you call that room for disagreement.... This is the kind of nanny state brainwashing I am talking about, the socialist states creates a population that share quite similar viewpoints. So similar that anything outside of that sphere is looked down upon and the population that does not stand in line will be considered outsiders. This is why norway, sweden and finland has such huge problems with immigration and immigrants acting up, they never really feel at home in a country with people so close minded.

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

Religion is something man should of evolved from in the last 500 years.

too soon

I personally like the ancient Greek religion ( the Olympian gods one ), where basically 20% all the legend are "Zeus find mortal girl that's smokin'hot, Zeus wants to bone her, Zeus wants a way to bone her".

Contemporary religions... meh, they are shit ass boring, you can see the philosophy behind most of them but that just gets diluted by the fact that they try to get the whole god/symbolism in there, in the end what you get is kinda of a "way to live your life" that has it's merits but it's hidden under the pretext that if you do so you get rivers of milk, angels and 40 virgins or what not when you die thus people might be making the right choice for the wrong reason when they dedicate to a religion but might also be making the wrong choice for the wrong reasons, or if you assume "paradise" exists but another religion is "correct" some will be making the wrong choice for the right reasons.

Alas it became more of a "social" thing than a philosophy about life in the last few hundred years, a conglomerate of easy to bend rules about how to behave in all kind of social situations, and nowadays it's simply a way for people to ignore death... which is fine, even tho you can say you are "conscious" of your mortality and able to handle it, in the end it's still not a "good" thing, at most it's a "neutral" thing in terms of events that will happen in your life. So if religion is a way to get your mind of that than id say it's doing the job.

Of course people complain about churches being corrupt and exempt of most taxes and blah blah blah, but truth is that most "companies" that entered the modern era rich remained rich ,even tho the patrons of the previous mentioned have not earned said fortune but rather their grand^3 parents have by means that are long lost and now they only inherit it.

I believe in the Norse gods myself

@floodiastus said:

@Legion_: And this is the reason I moved, you call that room for disagreement.... This is the kind of nanny state brainwashing I am talking about, the socialist states creates a population that share quite similar viewpoints. So similar that anything outside of that sphere is looked down upon and the population that does not stand in line will be considered outsiders. This is why norway, sweden and finland has such huge problems with immigration and immigrants acting up, they never really feel at home in a country with people so close minded.

Again, I would have to disagree. I'm talking about major differences that have a direct outcome on life and death. Just take a look at what I said about charity. If we're not willing to share what we have, we're just monsters. Obviously a lot of people in my country disagree with me. Is there any matter that is bigger than life and death? I think not.

I don't disagree that people are close minded here. There's no doubt about it. It's a disgrace that so many people are afraid of immigrants. But I think that just shows how wrong you are. I'm just one of many who find these people ignorant and that their way of thinking is old fashion. Just like your way of thinking is old fashion, and doesn't ring true at all.

@floodiastus said:

@Legion_: And this is the reason I moved, you call that room for disagreement.... This is the kind of nanny state brainwashing I am talking about, the socialist states creates a population that share quite similar viewpoints. So similar that anything outside of that sphere is looked down upon and the population that does not stand in line will be considered outsiders. This is why norway, sweden and finland has such huge problems with immigration and immigrants acting up, they never really feel at home in a country with people so close minded.

Are you suggesting that western "capitalist" countries have less homogeneous mainstream political discourse? I'll try to remember that when the next presidential debates roll around and I'm watching two old christian dudes argue about who loves free enterprise and Israel more.

@Legion_ said:

@Turambar said:

@Rebel_Scum said:

Not that I'm religous but Christianity shares a lot of the same ideals as Islam. Its not as cut and dry as saying ...

@Legion_ said:

Christianity/Captialism: Provide for yourself. Take care of yourself.

Not to mention that there are very similar stories in both the Bible and the Quran which would mean they share common ground on morals and how one should act.

Well, considering both Christianity and Islam (and Judeaism) both follow the same Old Commandants...

On the topic of Capitalism, that ideology was not formed by an economist. It was formed by a theologian that wanted to monetize Christianity so as to broaden its appeal. The fact that Christianity and Capitalism has shared some close cultural ties is not a coincidence.

Anyways, expect plenty of ideological intolerance in this thread. (And little to none of it will come from the religious folks.)

Was capitalism invented by a christian? That's pretty interesting, and new information to me. I'll hit the books on the subject, because I imagine there's a lot of good reading on that subject. Thanks dooder.

Actually, let me rephrase that because I worded it poorly. It wasn't invented by a Christian, rather it was birthed largely in part by Christianity, as history does hasn't crowned one person as the originator of modern capitalism. As for research, I'll save your the search and point you to the writings of Max Weber.

I belong to a suicide cult (they really aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be) who worships the reptilian all-being, the closest facsimile to his true name that we can replicate with our pitiful mortal tongues is the Gentle One.

@Hunter5024 said:

I belong to a suicide cult (they really aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be) who worships the reptilian all-being, the closest facsimile to his true name that we can replicate with our pitiful mortal tongues is the Gentle One.

I've been watching buffy the vampire slayer (way too much, like I'm midway through season 3 after 4 days) and that just sounds like an episode of that show

@Legion_

I'd recommend not delving into a discussion like this until you do more personal research, and once you're more firm in your understanding, this topic is best taken up with those you are close with personally who will be open to listening and sharing ideas with you in a safe and honest environment.

While you may mean well, a general, online discussion like this tends to simply move toward uninformed or misinformed individuals arguing at length over things they don't really understand.

@Animasta said:

@Hunter5024 said:

I belong to a suicide cult (they really aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be) who worships the reptilian all-being, the closest facsimile to his true name that we can replicate with our pitiful mortal tongues is the Gentle One.

I've been watching buffy the vampire slayer (way too much, like I'm midway through season 3 after 4 days) and that just sounds like an episode of that show

There's like weird cults and stuff? I thought it was just about vampires and things, maybe I need to watch this.

@Hunter5024 said:

@Animasta said:

@Hunter5024 said:

I belong to a suicide cult (they really aren't as bad as the media makes them out to be) who worships the reptilian all-being, the closest facsimile to his true name that we can replicate with our pitiful mortal tongues is the Gentle One.

I've been watching buffy the vampire slayer (way too much, like I'm midway through season 3 after 4 days) and that just sounds like an episode of that show

There's like weird cults and stuff? I thought it was just about vampires and things, maybe I need to watch this.

there are plenty of vampires but there are also plenty of weird cult shit and stuff too (I'd say... 45% vamps and 55% other stuff?)

I think you may be falsely portraying some of the things you're talking about, and being too reductionist about rather complex issues. Capitalism isn't really driven by the idea of "Everyone provide for themselves and we're all equal", capitalism is about privately owned companies providing things to people in exchange for money, and those companies profiting from it. Similarly, Christianity doesn't teach just to provide for the self either; there seems to be a bit of dissonance between the old and new testament of the Bible, but Jesus was all about providing for others and being selfless. You could maybe argue that the attitude that many U.S. citizens have taken that no one should get "hand outs" has come from philosophies surrounding capitalism, but I don't think you can make the argument that it has much to do with Christianity; the New Testament makes great reference to sharing with those who need it and being humane.

Now, sure enough, the Quran does teach charity, and you can say people have to provide for each other under the law of that book, but just because the Holy Book of a religion says something, doesn't mean that people in a country that have adopted that religion do everything that Holy Book says. By that logic all the U.S. Christians should be following every letter of the Bible. Religions, groups within those religions, and individuals within those religions, may ignore some parts of their holy text, develop new tales and laws external to those texts, or interpret the texts differently, meaning that behaviour can deviate greatly from what's written down, and I think you can see clear examples of this in both Christian and Islamic countries. I also think it would be a mistake to represent everything the Quran says as humane and giving, and I think there are parts of that book that have led people down a very immoral path. In fact, if all religious people did follow their Holy Books to the letter, then that would be a big problem. As a final note Socialism, while it has some worthwhile ideas, can't really just be reduced down to the ideas of "Be humane" and "Share with those who need it", that's not really what it is.

There may be unreasonable panic over the huge number of very harmless Muslims out there, but this really isn't as simple as capitalism and Christianity being selfish and isolating, and Islam and socialism being charitable and altruistic, and the countries associated with each religion just falling in line with these ideas.

Man, are you crazy? Making a thread about Islam on a site with a name like this. You'll bring us to the attention of the highest echelons of US intelligence!

@Gamer_152: Yeah, I think many people might be surprised to find that these are more likely to be rooted in local cultural differences than religious differences. Local culture tends to dictate the particular interpretation or emphasis of various parts of a religion, in the same way that culture impacts how people handle any other major facet of their lives.

So, if the discussion really wants to center on different regions and how they handle charity or economics, the more likely target is their local culture and history than their specific religious beliefs.

I think the concept of Hell is one of the fucking craziest things ever.

I don't think/care about religion too often, but there was a period in my life where I would think about Hell and read what other people had to say about it a lot. And ultimately, that's the conclusion I came up with.

The way I see it is that organized religion has simply done more harm than good, and keeps people from progressing past their belief systems and learning about new things and ideas. But then there's the stark opposite of purely material, strict atheism. It rejects the concept of a transcendental existence in the universe beyond our terrestrial lives, seeing us as nothing more than physical matter, permanently tied to consciousness until both are utterly dead and gone. This is a potentially too extreme, misguided view as well. The fact is, they're both just belief systems, unproven and lacking evidence, although one camp does at least have more evidence and science on its side. And if science is viewed as a study and understanding of the natural world, thus natural at its core, it's a more appealing way of seeing the reality of existence to me.

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

Man, are you crazy? Making a thread about Islam on a site with a name like this. You'll bring us to the attention of the highest echelons of US intelligence!

better delete this then D:

@TruthTellah said:

@Gamer_152: Yeah, I think many people might be surprised to find that these are more likely to be rooted in local cultural differences than religious differences. Local culture tends to dictate the particular interpretation or emphasis of various parts of a religion, in the same way that culture impacts how people handle any other major facet of their lives.

So, if the discussion really wants to center on different regions and how they handle charity or economics, the more likely target is their local culture and history than their specific religious beliefs.

I largely agree with what you're saying, but I don't think it's just that culture as a whole affects religion, but that both feed into each other. The culture surrounding religions affect the laws, practises, icoography, and stories of those religions, while the religions themselves are a part of the culture and affect just about all other cultural elements.

@Legion_: @Legion_ said:

@floodiastus said:

@Legion_: And this is the reason I moved, you call that room for disagreement.... This is the kind of nanny state brainwashing I am talking about, the socialist states creates a population that share quite similar viewpoints. So similar that anything outside of that sphere is looked down upon and the population that does not stand in line will be considered outsiders. This is why norway, sweden and finland has such huge problems with immigration and immigrants acting up, they never really feel at home in a country with people so close minded.

Again, I would have to disagree. I'm talking about major differences that have a direct outcome on life and death. Just take a look at what I said about charity. If we're not willing to share what we have, we're just monsters. Obviously a lot of people in my country disagree with me. Is there any matter that is bigger than life and death? I think not.

I don't disagree that people are close minded here. There's no doubt about it. It's a disgrace that so many people are afraid of immigrants. But I think that just shows how wrong you are. I'm just one of many who find these people ignorant and that their way of thinking is old fashion. Just like your way of thinking is old fashion, and doesn't ring true at all.

I think you miss the point I am trying to make completely. Voting for or against 1% of BNP going to africa just shows how similar people are in social democratic countries like sweden and norway, if this is the issue that separates people you truly live in a country where people are VERY similar not the other way around. Sweden, norway and finland are some of the LEAST diverse countries in europe and that you do not grasp that fact despite living there just reinforces my point on how numb and defensive the population are when it comes to it's politics. Once again, there is hard to find many countries where the population so blindly follow the government as in the north. I lived to countless propagandistic campaigns growing up in sweden, I know exactly how the political system works and how the government creates "workers" that are not critical thinkers but sheep.

I am curious, what is "my" way of thinking and how is it old fashioned?

@Animasta said:

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

Man, are you crazy? Making a thread about Islam on a site with a name like this. You'll bring us to the attention of the highest echelons of US intelligence!

better delete this then D:

Well, only if you have the Swords of Islam expansion...but then, why would you have it?