Listen to music on vinyl? Why/why not?

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Belegorm

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Hey all, anyone else enjoy listening to music on vinyl? I suddenly am a fan.

Several months ago after starting to work at a used bookstore, I started collecting CD's because it was dirt cheap for me and was the only easy way to listen to music I like on the way to work in my car.

We buy and sell tons of LP's, apparently nationally vinyl sales are the highest they've been since like 1992 or so and for our own store we've sold twice the amount of records that we'd sold the year before.

After being given an old turntable and a bunch of LP's from a relative, I started collecting LP's in much the same way I'd been collecting CD's. Collecting LP's is kind of an interesting task: most of them are pretty old and you really need to be careful about scratches if you want an acceptable sound (I'm not a super hardcore audiophile so I don't want incredible sound, just acceptable sound). Many of the records are coated in dust or have smudges so they should be cleaned.

But in spite of all that work, for me nothing beats pulling an LP out of its sleeve, putting it on the turntable and setting that needle. I have pretty bad hearing so I haven't really been able to notice the "softer sound" that many vinyl lovers like about it. For me it's the experience, listening to an LP is considerably more involved than just listening to music on youtube or whatever.

I tend to like mostly classic and 80's rock, classical, some folkesy stuff and am trying to get into jazz. Examples of some of the LP's I've managed to acquire for pretty damn cheap:

  • The Beatles' Red Album, White Album, and Blue album (lol I know), also Let it Be and Sgt. Pepper.
  • REO Speedwagon's Hi-Infidelity and several other ones from them
  • Van Halen II
  • Led Zeppelin IV
  • The Eagles' Hotel California, among others
  • Joe Walsh's But Seriously Folks
  • Kansas' Leftoverture
  • ZZ Top's... whatever the one with the car was
  • Journey's Frontiers
  • Joan Jett's Greatest Hits
  • Lynerd Skynerd's... something
  • Asia's... whatever starts with Heat of the Moment.
  • AC/DC's Back in Black (which I affectionately refer to as "Back in Black on Ice," since the needle starts skating whenever I try and play it. I really need to get a new copy of this one lol).
  • Star Wars soundtrack

Probably can tell from that list what I've enjoyed the most since some of the albums I don't even remember the names of lol xD Haven't gotten them yet but Thriller, some Pink Floyd album, John Lennon's Imagine and some Phil Collins are what I'll probably pick up next.

So anyone listen to music on vinyl? Any enthusiasts? Care to list any albums you have on vinyl?

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BradBrains

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#2  Edited By BradBrains

one word for why i love vinyl: Warmth

it just has a great feeling.

also analog will also sound better then digital. its science.

used to be a big rock guy: own most beatles albums and solo stuff.punk and hardcore. don't buy much vinyl now. its gotten crazy expansion over the last 5 years.

in saying that I'm not a audiophile and the headphones that come with the iPhone and 320 music files is fine with me fort the most part.

and i love jazz man. Mostly vocal based jazz. Blossom Desire, Anita O'Day, June Christy, Julie London are all personal favourites. I don't know if it counts as jazz but Frank Sinatra's In the wee small hours of the morning is one of the best albums ever made.

also the new lady gaga jazz album isnt anything amazing but is a fun listen.

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audiosnow

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The warping, dust, and impurity in the vinyl itself make records a less perfect reproduction of the sound than high-quality digital. Analog(ue) always would be better than digital if not for the external factors.

This distortion of the audio is part of why people think vinyl sounds better. I have a pair of Equator D5's and they make most songs sound a lot worse. Not bad, just a lot "less good." It's because they reproduce the sound as precisely as they can without any of the manipulation that non-monitor speakers do to the sound wave. The defects in vinyl soften the tones, blend the bands without compressing them, resulting in a more pleasing sound.

And it's also the experience. I didn't sit and just listen to music for years until I recently bought an 8-track player and some records. It's the difference between driving to work, and taking a drive.

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hatking

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@bradbrains: Isn't that kind of a myth? I'm sure there's exceptions, from older bands and bands that care about that stuff, but pressing vinyl from master tapes is apparently much more difficult than doing it from digital tracks. You're just getting what they're giving. I don't know much about where the divide on that actually is, maybe its only the mass market pop bands that're taking the cheap way out? I just know that I personally can almost never tell a difference in sound between vinyl and digital.

I do collect vinyl though. But I've always done it from the same standpoint that I collect movies. It's way easier and more convenient to have digital copies of things, but there is something special about owning a hard copy of a favorite movie or album. I've taken to buying my favorite albums from a place of love. If I'm having a party I'm playing music from my phone out of convenience. But there are those times that I want to invest myself in music, I'll open up some Scotch and throw on a favorite album, that's when I use vinyl. And, I guess it's also kind of the way to go if you have an appreciation for album art.

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Akeldama

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I support music I like by buying the albums I enjoy. If I am going to spend the money on something, I'm going to get the highest quality product possible. Large artwork, inner sleeve goodies and mp3 download codes are often included.

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Sinusoidal

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Nope. I like listening to records for nostalgic reasons, but otherwise, digital all the way. It's so much more versatile (and cheap.) A record sounds nice, but it always sounds like a record.

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ruubbiiee

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I went through a period of enjoying it, and dropped $50 on one of my favourite albums ever: Have One On Me by Joanna Newsom. She's about as close to a real live elf we will ever have as a race. Kicked the habit after that though. An album has to be REAL special for me to both buy it and sit my fat ass up to put it on when I'm in the mood.

It's great for cleaning the house and sipping wine too, though. In those regards, vinyl prevails 100%.

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thomasnash

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#8  Edited By thomasnash

I own a few bits an pieces on Vinyl, but I don't have a turntable at the moment so they're just sitting at my parents house.

Generally speaking I'm not much of a vinyl purist, and I don't think any of the arguments for it being objectively better hold much weight. That said I totally understand it as a preference, especially when it comes to DJs, and that tactile element helps to give the impression of direct control of the song, rather than an approximation.

My dad has a copy of Fairport Convention's Liege and Lief on vinyl, and we put that on every Christmas eve. Last year my dad was talking about how to him that's the only way to listen to it because he knows every scratch and noise and imperfection on his copy, and without all those little imperfections it doesn't sound like the same album to him, and I think he's totally right in a way. I own that album on CD, and I rarely listen to it at home because it is weird not hearing the needle bump up at the end of the groove after "Farewell, Farewell."

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fisk0

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#9  Edited By fisk0  Moderator

It's a matter of preference of course, I think the analog nature of it, and the fact that it doesn't sound exactly the same every time kinda helps you notice different aspects of the songs every time you listen. The fact that you've got those huge booklets and cover art does a lot for the experience too.

Oddly enough I'm similarly fond of cassette music despite them having much smaller booklets than CD's.

I think an essential vinyl everyone should own is Jeff Wayne's Musical version of The War of the Worlds from 1978. Amazing music and artwork, based on one of the best early sci-fi novels.

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dadjumper

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I just really like physical media.
I've got a fairly modest vinyl collection of around 40~, from Pink Floyd and similar "classic rock" stuff to some more modern things, like Elliott Smith and Listener, as well as the contemporary Japanese 7"s I have.

I also have around 60 cassettes. I got really into indie tape labels recently and bought up a whole bunch as well as a new tape deck. Both tapes and vinyl have a different sound and a different purpose, I think. I really like the blown out feeling of punk tapes, whereas I prefer vinyl for music with a more open mix.

Basically I'm crazy

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chebbles

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I listen to most of my music digitally, but in recent years it's been nice to collect some of my favourite albums on vinyl. My turntable is currently set up in my parents garage, and it's a nice ritual to take a vinyl out there, sit down with the sleeve and just listen to the album for an hour.

I think it may just be the ritual more than anything, it holds the same role games do, a bit of escapism for an hour when I have the time. Also, I love physical media still!

Though the practicality has reared it's head, I am currently working abroad in Spain until June for work experience, so digital music definitely has the upper hand there at the moment.

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diz

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#12  Edited By diz

(I wrote this a while ago and posted it in these forums but I thought I'd rehash it here again.)

I am a vinyl lover, user, audio nut and a realist. I have a large collection of records and a very good quality record deck, arm, cartridge and amplification. But there are distinct technical disadvantages to reproduction in vinyl. A myth is being built up about the use of records, which can be easily demystified with some clear evidence:

  • The "loudness wars" (i.e. compression used) in some music can also exist on vinyl. Typically, vinyl mastering is an added extra stage after the digital master has been created, so inherits all the compression used in the recording and mastering of the original sound. Compression used in recording and mixing can not be removed by "clever" mastering to vinyl. Vinyl often sounds more compressed (i.e. less dynamic) than a digital counterpart.
  • The dynamic range (difference between loudest and quietest bits) available for vinyl is far more limited than it is for digital media. Music with really quiet, then really loud portions tends to suffer by comparison. These dynamic range issues also affect vinyl's transient response in comparison to digital media. Digital music also offers better channel separation to vinyl.
  • Vinyl records have issues in reproducing bass frequencies. That's why all records have RIAA (cut bass and boosted treble) equalisation performed on them prior to pressing and then are further equalised to restore the RIAA frequency response (boost bass and reduce treble) in the phono stage of your pre-amplification circuitry.
  • To improve bass response and reduce the movement load on the cantilever of your stylus, records have their lower frequencies summed to both channels (i.e. mono in the lowest frequencies). This is a common additional mastering technique with vinyl that is not necessary (although still often used) with digital media.
  • There are issues in mastering vinyl in fitting the material in each side of an LP disk. If the grooves are spaced close together, than dynamic range and channel separation are further reduced with the additional penalty of sound over-spill between grooves. Once again, these additional steps in mastering for vinyl simply don't exist for digital media.
  • The output from a moving magnet record cartridge is far lower than the output of any other "line level" source, so has to be boosted with extra amplification to reach line level (in the amplifier phono input stage). Some of the more exotic moving coil type cartridges have an even lower output, so need greater amplification. This extra amplification stage can induce signal-to-noise and dynamic range issues with end equipment, even with high quality MM/MC input stages.
  • With the vast majority of record decks (I.e. all with a pivoting tonearm and excepting linear tracking turntables, which have their own set of issues), the needle in the cartridge tracks the record across an arc (the exception being in the linear tracking tonearms). This means that the tracking angle of the stylus is only optimal in 2 narrow areas in a well adjusted set-up and off-set across most of the disk. This is due to the stylus moving across the record in an arc rather than a straight line used in the cutting lathes that all have linear movement in their cutting heads. The off-set tracking angel affects distortion, and channel separation.
  • Materials and temperatures used in pressing vinyl can have a huge effect on the resulting quality of recording.

If you have a cheap record player, I would doubt that any vinyl you buy for it would sound better than for a digital equivalent (or even as good). You need some rather special equipment to get a decent quality reproduction from vinyl. I would personally advise against decks like the Technics SL1200 - which are great for DJs because they have light, direct drive platters and no suspension aside from their feet. They can therefore be used for cueing and scratching records, rather than for listening to them at the highest quality. Decent turntables tend to have weightier platters for speed stability, be belt driven (so motor noise isn't transmitted directly through the platter), have suspension and often a facility for using tonearms from different manufacturers. Such a deck would be rather crap to DJ on though, since they'd wobble about too much and take far longer to spin up.

To mitigate some of the above, the advantages of vinyl are:

  • Vinyl has a far higher frequency range than standard CDs ("white book" specification). Records can go up into the 50KHz range whereas CDs stop dead at less than 20KHz because of their brick wall filtering due to their sampling frequency. These issues are solved with things like SACD and other HQ digital formats with greater bit depths and higher sampling frequencies (i.e. 96KHz at 24 bit is a standard for recording, then the end result is dithered to white book 44.1KHz at 16 bits for CD and worse for mp3).
  • In comparison to MP3, vinyl can often sound superior - even compared to 320Kbps MP3 quality. People don't seem particularly interested in quality any more if the rise of the MP3 is anything to go by.
  • The LP sleeve notes and album design are far more pleasing, larger, often better printed and sometimes more inventive.
  • There is a nostalgia to listening to vinyl, especially in expecting certain cracks and pops in often played tracks.
  • Some stuff is only available on vinyl, else it has been digitally recorded from a vinyl source. For those recordings where the master has been lost, the vinyl option could potentially sound better than a digital reproduction, given suitable equipment.
  • 12" 45 RPM "singles" can sound fantastic. This is partially due to the considerations relating to wider groove spacing in the vinyl master (one or two tracks per side rather than the usual 4 to 7 for an LP) and partially due to the increased speed with which they pass under the stylus.
  • New vinyl pressings off a production run also sound better than the later pressings from the same master plates, which degrade with each pressing made.
  • The first tracks from a record often sound better than the ones at the end, since the grooves are moving faster under the stylus.
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LeStephan

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#13  Edited By LeStephan

@diz:

nice, thanks! didn't even know most of those facts!

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ShapeOfDespair

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i currently don't have way to play them since I recently moved (my old roommate had a nice record player), but I tend to buy vinyl when available just because I can put them on display. It's an easy choice when you also get mp3 versions along with it so I can throw it on my phone.

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SubwayD

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I'd love to listen to more vinyl. Got a few records and a crappy turntable but I just don't have space to keep it out, so I rarely get to use it these days.

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Shortbreadtom

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I listen to vinyl for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I have quite an old music taste and not all the albums I want can be found digitally. I have plenty of live recordings, unreleased sessions and different compilations that just can't be found online. I also think it sounds slightly better, but I'm not a big audiophile so it might just be placebo. I love the feeling of listening to music as "an event", and the act of taking the vinyl out of the sleeve, putting it on the turntable and dropping the needle all just feels really cool. But I think the biggest reason is all to do with forming an emotional attachment to my music collection. I couldn't care less about the actual music files in my computer, but I do care about my vinyls. It's nice to be able to look at a music collection, and people who come over can browse through my music and learn a little bit about me.

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Univarn

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One of the ways me and my wife bonded early on in our relationship was our mutual love and interest in vinyl. Part of our love is that element of search and discovery of great music. We would go to the few local record stores and flea markets and find the vinyl dealers and just spend a couple of hours digging through and discussing our favorite music. We also both find record players and record shelves aesthetically pleasing to look at.

Also, my primary favorite music types tend to be older songs, or newer songs with a throwback feel. While I know they sound cleaner and clearer in mp3 and streaming, something about vinyl's subtle scratchiness that just puts me in the right mood for those kind of songs.

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cLoudForest

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@diz said:

To mitigate some of the above, the advantages of vinyl are:

  • Vinyl has a far higher frequency range than standard CDs ("white book" specification). Records can go up into the 50KHz range whereas CDs stop dead at less than 20KHz because of their brick wall filtering due to their sampling frequency. These issues are solved with things like SACD and other HQ digital formats with greater bit depths and higher sampling frequencies (i.e. 96KHz at 24 bit is a standard for recording, then the end result is dithered to white book 44.1KHz at 16 bits for CD and worse for mp3).

Everything else @diz said I agree with completely but there's a couple of real-world issues with the statement about the frequency response of vinyl compared to CD (which is "red-book" audio not "white book" BTW).

The first is that, putting aside the frequency range for a moment, the frequency response of vinyl within that range isn't flat which compromises the fidelity with which a vinyl record can reproduce the original source. The mastering engineer can try to compensate for that but it's usually very imperfect and therefore a vinyl record won't be able to match the flatness of frequency response of a CD.

The second is that during the cutting process high-frequencies are rolled-off above a certain point due to the fact that sustained levels of those high frequencies would burn out the tiny motors used to guide the cutting head. So in reality this theoretical maximum isn't really achieved.

The third issue is that the act of playing a vinyl record gradually destroys the higher frequencies in the vinyl. The worst offender in this respect is the use of conical needles in the cartridge. Elliptical needles are better in this respect but the damage done by playing a record with a conical head is irreversible, so whether that vinyl record you picked up second-hand will have retained the higher end of the frequency range depends on what equipment it's been used with before it got to you and will continue to degrade on every playback.

The last issue is that power amplifiers often suffer from non-linear distortion when they're fed signals that contain frequencies above 20kHz, so it's not even clear that it would be beneficial to the overall reproduction of the original if the recording medium could reproduce signals containing those frequencies. It's one of the reasons why there's some debate over the merits of 24/96 as an end-user format (although it's pretty much as standard at the recording/mixing/mastering stages).

Most people are lucky if their able to hear stuff above 16-17kHz, let alone above 20kHz, and that only gets worse as people get older, so it's a moot point whether anything above the current limit for CD audio is actual required at all.

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rickyyo

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I like vinyl as a display piece for album art I like and records I really love.

I go with 24 bit Wav source files when I can at the highest sampling rate possible. If I can get anything above MP3s I go for it cause I love bass enough that getting the clean real bass frequencies versus the distorted compressed ones found in mp3s. I am just talking from the digital codec perspective. I had to study digital codecs for audio and program some c++ stuff so I am pretty familiar with what makes MP3s terrible.

Since I love bass the higher frequencies don't really matter to me.

What I do like a lot though are old Latin records that are in mono and sound awful. I will put those on and clean to those. Cause there is nothing more hilarious than skipping cause of badly damaged vinyl on one of those 1.2 second loops or what ever it is. The best part is realizing it is skipping and this is among the other problems with acetate recording / dubplate type garbage cause they couldn't afford to make 180g records. So, if anything I have grown a like to bad recordings more than vinyl itself as a 'quality' recording format.

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LionsLinden

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one word for why i love vinyl: Warmth

This one soooo much. When I bought a record player a few years ago along with proper stereo equipment the first record I listened to was Led Zep II. I was blown away and stayed that way for days. Never have I heard so much detail on a record.

Big reason for me to start collecting vinyl was the collection I kinda inherited from my parents. Everything Beatles, Stones, Led Zep, Bob Dylan among other valuable stuff. Then I went from there and started getting vintage Talking Heads, Pixies, Wire, Pere Ubu stuff. I'm a collector and just love to spend hours upon hours in my favourite record stores looking for valuable or new and interesting stuff. Never got that feeling when I went looking for CDs. Besides most of my CDs from th 90s aren't really working anymore.

One last reason for me to go ahead and reduce my listening habits to mainly vinyl was that you can't really skip a song. Sure in theory you can but it is a pain in the ass and I'd rather listen to the full album in its intended form. Something that's been lacking in most post-2000 is a coherent idea behind an album. Most stuff is just filler for the odd singles that get to the charts. Albums create context in which a song should be exhibited imo of course.

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mellotronrules

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i like vinyl because it forces you to physically engage with the art-

the track list, the liner notes, the design and cover art- this shit matters!

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diz

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#22  Edited By diz

@cloudforest said:

Everything else @diz said I agree with completely but there's a couple of real-world issues with the statement about the frequency response of vinyl compared to CD (which is "red-book" audio not "white book" BTW).

The first is that, putting aside the frequency range for a moment, the frequency response of vinyl within that range isn't flat which compromises the fidelity with which a vinyl record can reproduce the original source. The mastering engineer can try to compensate for that but it's usually very imperfect and therefore a vinyl record won't be able to match the flatness of frequency response of a CD.

The second is that during the cutting process high-frequencies are rolled-off above a certain point due to the fact that sustained levels of those high frequencies would burn out the tiny motors used to guide the cutting head. So in reality this theoretical maximum isn't really achieved.

The third issue is that the act of playing a vinyl record gradually destroys the higher frequencies in the vinyl. The worst offender in this respect is the use of conical needles in the cartridge. Elliptical needles are better in this respect but the damage done by playing a record with a conical head is irreversible, so whether that vinyl record you picked up second-hand will have retained the higher end of the frequency range depends on what equipment it's been used with before it got to you and will continue to degrade on every playback.

The last issue is that power amplifiers often suffer from non-linear distortion when they're fed signals that contain frequencies above 20kHz, so it's not even clear that it would be beneficial to the overall reproduction of the original if the recording medium could reproduce signals containing those frequencies. It's one of the reasons why there's some debate over the merits of 24/96 as an end-user format (although it's pretty much as standard at the recording/mixing/mastering stages).

Most people are lucky if their able to hear stuff above 16-17kHz, let alone above 20kHz, and that only gets worse as people get older, so it's a moot point whether anything above the current limit for CD audio is actual required at all.

Firstly, apologies - I did mean "Red book", although "White book" does have the same audio specifications.

Secondly, the vinyl itself is encoded with a waveform and it is the encoding and transcription equipment that would reproduce it accurately (or not). The accuracy of reproduction is more challenging with vinyl, since there are many more areas of issue (both mechanical and electrical) than for digital reproduction.

The frequency response of cutting lathes is far higher than the frequency response of CD audio. High frequency content in audio is typically not sustained. Although sometimes high frequencies are rolled off on vinyl (as they are naturally on the tape masters), this is often done far above the 20KHz maximum for CD audio. Look at these traces for analogue vs digital from here:

"Supertramp"- "Dreamer" Vinyl LP

"Supertramp" - "Dreamer" CD

The third issue you describe about deterioration in records is true across all frequencies and is partly down to the quality of bearings in the tonearm, the suspension and tracking weight of the cartridge, although it is inevitable with physical contact and heat generated while the needle is in the groove.

Your final issue is easily resolved with proper amplifier design. I know that my record deck cartridge will start to roll off above 50KHz and my speakers will reproduce sounds in the 30KHz range (I have super-tweeters in my transmission line speakers). My preamplifier and amplifier will be capable of also amplifying that range of sound far above most human hearing.

Perhaps an issue with modern amplification is that it uses "class D" (switched mode) power supplies and amplification, which although more efficient, add a high frequency component that compromises audio quality above certain frequencies. More expensive amplifiers can use large power supplies and esoteric amplifiers running in "class A" mode (my preferred type of amplifier) won't have the switching or high frequency distortion that lesser "AB" or "D" mode amplifiers suffer.

The issue with CDs is that the maximum sampling frequency is dictated by the Nyquist theorem, so a brick wall filter must be applied over this frequency (since the samples taken will not correspond to their sampled waveforms). But leading up to the maximum sample frequency, the samples taken will less accurately describe their sampled waveform, since there will be fewer data points per high frequency wave. It led to notion that CD sounded harsh and brittle at higher frequencies. Vinyl does not have this issue and high frequencies can sound smoother and cleaner because at those high frequencies leading up to the maximum sample rate, the analogue waveforms are more accurate.

Your final thought is an interesting one and this is where objectivity departs and subjective ideas begin. We all have different hearing abilities and these abilities change (degrade) in our lives. Although I do remember an interview with an amplifier designer years ago, who stated that although we might not all hear things at ranges above 20KHz, we may feel them (as presence or ambiance) in the same way that we can feel ultra low frequencies that we can't hear either. The fact remains that if instruments can produce harmonics beyond the standard range of hearing, why shouldn't audio equipment be able to reproduce them? The CD limit was imposed at the time due to technical constraints that closely bordered the audibility of most people, so should not be used as an absolute reference in my opinion, especially since the digital waveform degrades as it reaches the maximum sample rate.

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RonGalaxy

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#23  Edited By RonGalaxy

I listen to most of my music via streaming, but I do appreciate the ritual/sound of vinyl. If I come across a record I really love and it was recorded on analog equipment I'll get it on vinyl. It's a once in a while thing you do because you like the experience, even if it takes more effort/costs more.

And I can understand not understanding vinyl; we all have different taste/priorities when it comes to this kind of stuff.

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medacris

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No. I've never owned a record player, and to be honest, after listening to the same song on several different media, they all sound the same to me, regardless. I do still buy CD's, though. I like having a physical copy to someday perhaps get signed, or to read through the lyric booklet (especially when they thank the fans, it always warms my heart).

CD's, I feel, are easier if you're going to, I don't know, a comic book convention or large concert to get things signed. I've never held a vinyl without being terrified I was going to break it, or thought, "yeah, I could sandwich this into a backpack with a lot of other convention swag, and it'll be fine."

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nickhead

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I collected CD's over the years and recently got into buying records. I'm naturally susceptible to collecting stuff, especially in terms of music, and I love having the tangible artwork. Depending on the type of music, records can come in some really nice packages. Underground metal is my go-to genre, and those bands know that their limited presses of records will always sell. I like to think I can hear the difference, but I don't have a high end player or anything, so I'm probably fooling myself. Regardless, pulling the record out, putting it on the turntable, and actually seeing it produce sound is a joy in itself.

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I don't listen to music on vinyl. For me, nothing beats having my music stored on my computer / phone, immediately available and on shuffle when I want it.

I don't like any of the ritual, storage, wear, etc. that comes along with physical media. I don't want the cover art, I don't want the liner notes, I don't want the "warmth". None of it is appealing. Similarly, I'm not a fan of the smell, feel, look, or wear of old books - put that shit on a tablet.

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OldGuy

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#27  Edited By OldGuy

One point that no one seems to consider... the music that sounds "better" played from an analogue "source" (before wear begins - which is right on the first play regardless of the analog medium you choose) was almost all recorded and mixed digitally. Consumer DACs are pretty darn good these days so I choose to listen to that digital original converted at my end to play on the only bit of analogue equipment that matters, my speakers.

We have lost the nice large canvas for album (quick quiz: Why are they called albums? I'm old, so I know, do you?) art though...

The best nutso thing I've seen? This thing:

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Yep, that's a tiny little tube amplifier section on your motherboard... if you're going that far I would think you'd use an external tube amp, but, whatever...

Actually that's the not the nutsoest: Make sure you paint the inside of your CD player green! (Ha!)

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Tom_omb

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#28  Edited By Tom_omb

I don't own a record player and I'm not sure if I have the space for one or would take the time to use it. Although I have found myself in the possession of a handful of records and have them hanging up as art. Here's one example from my collection:

No Caption Provided

Also, a Google image search of "disco duck record cover" is highly recommended.

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Lv4Monk

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#29  Edited By Lv4Monk

@mellotronrules: I'd imagine classic game consoles over emulators are a close analogue (see what I did there?) to this idea. Nothing else can get in the way. No friends list prompting response, no Playlist tempting you, no connection to the outside world. It's just you, the game and the console.

It's all about setting the right mood.

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Belegorm

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@lv4monk said:

@mellotronrules: I'd imagine classic game consoles over emulators are a close analogue (see what I did there?) to this idea. Nothing else can get in the way. No friends list prompting response, no Playlist tempting you, no connection to the outside world. It's just you, the game and the console.

It's all about setting the right mood.

Yar I would agree wholeheartedly. Especially in weird cases like putting Sonic 2 into Sonic and Knuckles into the Genesis

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BradBrains

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@hamst3r said:

I don't listen to music on vinyl. For me, nothing beats having my music stored on my computer / phone, immediately available and on shuffle when I want it.

I don't like any of the ritual, storage, wear, etc. that comes along with physical media. I don't want the cover art, I don't want the liner notes, I don't want the "warmth". None of it is appealing. Similarly, I'm not a fan of the smell, feel, look, or wear of old books - put that shit on a tablet.

nothing is more calming then having a drink and listen to vinyl.

in saying that i have all my music on the cloud available on all devices when i want it and i would die if i couldn't do that.

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diz

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@oldguy: That would be all well and good, except that the majority of records ever produced were recorded by analogue means. At the advent of CDs, there wasn't the convenient means to record digitally and the early CDs were "AAD" (Analogue recording, Analogue mixing, Digital Transfer). CD players have been available since the early 1980s, whereas computing power and/or commercially priced hardware that enables digital multi-track recording came much later than that.

Also, don't forget about your analogue amplifiers there! As for the most nusto thing in hi-fi I've ever seen; I was around when Peter Belt (PWB products) came to notoriety. Look him up if you don't know about his contribution to audio engineering with his statically charged paint brushes, safety pins and stickers.

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cLoudForest

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#33  Edited By cLoudForest

@diz: My overall point still stands that when talking about vinyl's ability to reproduce these extremely high frequencies, it is anything but accurate because those frequencies are attenuated in all the ways I've described. When people want to make the claim of vinyl's greater fidelity because of digital sampling being necessarily band-limited they tend to ignore that vinyl isn't anything like flat over the same range that CD can reproduce nor is it anything like flat beyond that point.

The weight of the scientific evidence is against the idea that anyone can hear anything above 22kHz, and the analogy you draw between ultra-high frequencies and people being able to feel very low frequencies isn't convincing to me because in the case of low frequencies we know the mechanism by which those can be felt whereas no such mechanism has been proposed or proven for ultra-high frequencies.

On the subject of non-linear distortion in amplifiers caused by ultra-high frequencies in the source audio, note that I used the word "often". The point is that recordings are for mass consumption and there seems to me little point in trying to reproduce frequencies that we're reasonably certain no-one can actual hear and only cause problems in the majority of playback systems, especially when one of the ways of avoiding those issues in said playback systems is for frequencies above a certain point being sharply rolled-off.

@diz said:

The issue with CDs is that the maximum sampling frequency is dictated by the Nyquist theorem, so a brick wall filter must be applied over this frequency (since the samples taken will not correspond to their sampled waveforms). But leading up to the maximum sample frequency, the samples taken will less accurately describe their sampled waveform, since there will be fewer data points per high frequency wave. It led to notion that CD sounded harsh and brittle at higher frequencies. Vinyl does not have this issue and high frequencies can sound smoother and cleaner because at those high frequencies leading up to the maximum sample rate, the analogue waveforms are more accurate.

I'm sorry but this is not true and contradicts Shannon-Nyquist, the foundation of digital sampling. A digital system can represent everything up to Nyquist perfectly and there's no relationship between the number of samples and the frequency being sampled within that range that implies otherwise. The only practical issue with respect to frequencies near Nyquist is the design of the reconstruction filter in the DAC. The notion that CDs sounded harsh is purely historical and has more to do with the short-comings of early ADC and DAC designs. It's absolutely not something that's inherent to digital audio per se and modern ADC/DAC have improved such that those issues no longer exist.

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diz

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@cloudforest: I never claimed greater "fidelity" for vinyl across the frequency range - I pointed out that vinyl had a greater frequency range than CD, which is true. You seemed to introduce various reasonings about high frequencies included (or not) in vinyl recordings that can either be mitigated against or don't really exist anyway. Spectral analysis between vinyl and CD output shows the greater frequency range that records can bring to a reproduction. Vinyl frequency reproduction is also reasonably flat to 30KHz anyway and experimental pressings have been made up to 120KHz.

Your point about mass consumption is lost on me since we are talking about a niche market for audio here and the possibilities (as Peter Walker from Quad opined) for the "closest approach to the original sound". Design philosophies that can easily and faithfully reproduce all original frequencies interest me more than design philosophies that would sharply filter out frequencies above the old "red book" standard because the designs themselves would introduce their own additional harmonic distortion. "Mass consumption" means "mp3", which is objectively lower quality than CD! Your point about the "majority" of playback systems only underlines my earlier points about the exacting nature of vinyl (or any faithful sonic) reproduction.

Recent developments in audio with SACD and higher bit-rates and sampling frequencies becoming standard for audio recording and mastering indicate that the old "red book" standard is not sufficient and that better quality (with high end systems) can be attained with improved technologies. These improvements would not have become the new standard for digital if 16 bit 41KHz was considered sufficient for "perfect" audio.

DAC designs have improved, but oversampling techniques have also been used in the early CD players to maximise the sample rate so that frequencies approaching the Nyquist limit have sufficient resolution and have reduced artifacts for brick wall filtering. The additional headroom of higher sample rates makes it easier for filters to work above the audio range and reduce phase and aliasing errors. Although perfect on a mathematical level, the actual waveform produced near the nyquist limit has always needed additional processing for the human ear.

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Belegorm

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nothing is more calming then having a drink and listen to vinyl.

Something I frequently need after having a drink and watching the Persona 4 endurance run... it's got me all in stitches every time lol.

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monetarydread

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#36  Edited By monetarydread

This is an ordered list of my favourite musical medium:

  1. Live
  2. High Quality 24-bit WAV files (I guess the PONO music store will be next in line when it launches)
  3. Mastered for Itunes (These files have to go through a specific mastering process that is intended to optimize the sound of digital files, putting an Amazon mp3 against a Mastered for Itunes AAC file next to each other has a night and day difference between the two; my headphones just destroy tradional MP3's This is a good article that explains why I like the Mastered For Itunes program. Really though, I find it moer convenient than a CD.
  4. SACD, DVD Audio, HDCD (Like HQ 24-bit audio, these albums just sound better than traditional CD's. My problem is that they are less common than I would like, but then again I rarely purchase CD's anymore.)
  5. CD (I really do not buy these anymore)
  6. Steaming (I live in an area where streaming audio is not really much of an option, it's there, but it is basically a photocopy of what Americans are offered)
  7. Vinyl - Maybe it is my equipment I own, but I do not enjoy the sound that comes from any vinyl album I own. There is this ugly warmth to the sound that perverts the experience for me and I find that the hissing, pops, and general background presence that interferes with my ideals of a true neutral version of the recording. I also find that, no matter how expensive the needle I use, a vinyl recording degrades after a few listens, I am not a fan of purchasing a medium that degrades over time. Almost none of my cassetes or VHS tapes play their media properly anymore because sections of the tape are warped and stretched.)

Overall, I am wondering how much of an impact Classical or Social conditioning has on peoples preference to vinyl as a medium. Most people I talk to about vinyl always mention that they listen because of the added ritual and childhood nostalgia to the experience. Their parents had vinyl when they were a child and that is how they were first raised on how to listen to music, everything that has come afterwards is inherently lesser because it does not contribute as much to the feeling of connection with the past, a past that is often associated with good times, simplicity, and pleasure. Think about this comparison; ask someone what they think of the current SNL cast, that conversation usually turn to how shitty the show is and how much better it used to be back in the day.

The social conditioning part is big as well. The one thing that really weirded me out when I visited America for the first time was how everyone there seemed lost and trying to search for or create a unique identity that stands out from massive crowd of people in their communities. Its almost like the quest for identity is more important than actually being themselves because they are rewarded socially for being a tastemaker. In this search for an identity people are starting to define themselves by the routines and rituals they are integrating into their lifestyles and Vinyl collection just seems to be one of them. At that point it no longer becomes about the music anymore and I feel that it has been warped into some social requirement. Like for example, I know a lot of people who have purchased a vinyl because they enjoy it when someone picks the vinyl out of their home collection and says, "whats this?" or because it makes them appear to be more eclectic.

I don't know, I am not saying its bad, it's just a foreign experience to me.

Edit: I brought up personal bias a lot with music in my article, so I thought I would share my personal biases that formed my opinions.

  • I love only listening to music, its an almost meditative experience for me. That said, I still prefer to listen to music while going for a walk instead of sitting down and only listening to music for an hour and a half.
  • I am a headphone person, I have almost a dozen headphones that I use for different purposes. My precious pair that never leaves my home is a set of Sennheiser HD 650's running through an ASUS Xonar Essence ST card.
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As someone who has spent the time and money to have a supreme vinyl set up, I too enjoy sound of vinyl. Truly the warmth is something that wonderful to enjoy, but I think it particularly stands out when the LP or EP is produced with a sole focus on creating amazing natural sounds or vocals. I listen to all sorts of music, but I collect vinyls that I know have particularly well produced instruments and sounds, as the whole setup will produce amazingly rich and warm sounds from the vinyl. Can't stop won't stop.

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anden4300

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Like it has been said before the word to describe vinyl is Warmth.

There is a certain feel when you take out the record, setting down the needle and just listening to it go, especially the old ones, i love the crackling noise, as long as it doesn't hurt the music ofcourse.

I still buy CD's but i will choose the vinyl over the other any day. the problem with new vinyls is that they are double the price of a CD..

some vinyls i have been immensely trying to track down everytime i get by a used record store or something is Frank Zappa, something you should defiantly check out if you haven't. Some albums with him i can recommend is: The Grand Wazoo, Lumpy Gravy, The Best Band You Never Heard In Your Life(Live album), and Hot Rats.

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GERALTITUDE

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#39  Edited By GERALTITUDE

So much character in the sound.

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deactivated-63bbfc9f777ec

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I don't know why but I think colored vinyl is the coolest shit, my LP of Deafheavens "Sunbather" is on Pink and Yellow vinyl and everytime I play it I look at the record for like a minute and think how awesome it looks.

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Zefpunk

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In our world of piss poor attention spans, it is a wonderful way to get you to just stop and focus on something for an hour or so. You listen to an album all the way through and just kick it.

I have so many great memories of my best pal and myself just drinking beers and listening to Rolling Stones, Dead Kennedys, Morrissey, and whatever else we had.

Also, nothing beats hitting the local record shop and digging through the crates to find an old gem, or even better, something that you buy solely on the super rad cover and then end up totally digging when you get back home.

VINYL WILL NEVER DIE.

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Yakumo1975

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#42  Edited By Yakumo1975

Back in the 80's and all the way up to 1998 I bought loads of vinyl. Then I moved to Japan and left it all in the UK. This year a friend gave me a 7" single of Fright Night (theme from the movie). I love the movie so actually went out and bought a turntable just to listen to this record. What a mistake that was according to my wife. Within in 6 months I now have over 50 singles and about 20 albums. Buying vinyl in Japan is really easy and most of the time in amazing condition. I have stuff from the very early 80's that still sounds brand new! Of course some vinyl is expensive but you can buy a lot of stuff quite cheap. Only yesterday did I pick up 4 a-ha albums and 2 12" singles for 600 yen. Sure, a-ha may not be everyone's cup of tea but they do have some good to great tracks and for the price of 600 yen for what seems like mint vinyl you'd be mad to pass them up.

Now, I'm bitten by the vinyl bug again just like the old days. I love the stuff. Sure, it's bulky and it can sound crackly (I actually like that) but it's special. Just like playing a real cartridge or CD on a real console. Better than emulation any day.

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diz

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#43  Edited By diz

Japanese pressings in the 1980's had the reputation of being much brighter in tone than their equivalent Europe and US counterparts. I have several "specialty" import pressings that I paid quite a lot for at the time and they have much less bass and much more treble than I was expecting.

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Japanese pressings were sold through various hi-fi mags at the time with true claims that the plastic used was superior and pressing quality was higher than that available in the west. Various arguments have been made as to why (and even if) the mastering of Japanese records had a brighter tonal balance and answers including; a cultural preference for detail and inferior master tape copies have been made for this.

I'm not sure I'd agree with vinyl sounding "warm" in general though, as many people here claim, since a decent turntable shouldn't introduce such tonal imbalances into the music it's reproducing. I've owned turntables with silicone fluid damping in tonearm troughs (i.e. an Elite Townshend Rock) and also used tonearms with silicone fluid damped bearings (like the Well Tempered Arm and the Hadcock and Mayware Unipivots, etc) in the past. Those methods of damping tonearm-generated frequencies are extreme, but do provide for a more tonally neutral sound.

Although I've moved away from dealing with messy silicone fluid in my current deck setup (Michell Gyrodec, modified (silver wired) Rega RB300, Sumiko Blue Point Special), I don't hear much "warmth" colouration in my records at all. I think this is due to the weight and suspension of the deck, the rigidity of the tonearm and the neutrality of the cartridge.

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spraynardtatum

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Nope. I like listening to records for nostalgic reasons, but otherwise, digital all the way. It's so much more versatile (and cheap.) A record sounds nice, but it always sounds like a record.

Yeah but most records these days come with a digital copy. You spend extra cash but you get all the goods.

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Belegorm

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Just ended up buying a bunch more LP's today, lotta good stuff from the Beatles, John Lennen, Pink Floyd, Phil Collins, Black Sabbath, the Temptations and Miles Davis.

Also bought my second copy of Back in Black because the first one was a bit destroyed :P

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Yakumo1975

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#46  Edited By Yakumo1975

Yes, there is some truth in this but I wouldn't say all Japanese pressings have this quality of extra treble. I have quite a few bass heavy records too. Still, the overall quality of the pressing, materials and even packing is far superior to that of western or at least UK pressed records. Saying that I do own one Japanese pressed full colour picture disc and that sounds awful. So bad I would say it sounded as if it was grating. Looks to be mint condition though so I'm guessing the materials used are not good or is this a common isue with picture discs?

@diz said:

Japanese pressings in the 1980's had the reputation of being much brighter in tone than their equivalent Europe and US counterparts. I have several "specialty" import pressings that I paid quite a lot for at the time and they have much less bass and much more treble than I was expecting.

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diz

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#47  Edited By diz

Certainly not all Japanese pressings have it, but the brightness trend is there. Disk mastering differs between various companies, equipment and people - and that holds true in Japan.

Picture disks can and often do sound worse than black vinyl, since the properties of the plastics used to make them can be different to the black stuff. Having said that; I have some picture disks that sound really excellent.

In the 1980's I always looked for "Masterdisk", "Sterling", "Townhouse" and such being scratched or stamped into the run-out grooves of my LPs, since those ones would often be sonically superior to albums mastered and pressed at other plants. Also, in the LP sleeve notes credits section, I looked for "Bob Ludwig" who was a prolific mastering engineer and is credited on much good sounding 1980's made records.

There were some labels that always focused on great quality record pressings; like Blue Note and Mobile Fidelity - who cut their master disks at half speed!

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groverat

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#48  Edited By groverat

I'm a vinyl man, myself, but not nearly as into it as many of you. God bless the black circles!

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Belegorm

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Gah!!!

My newest vinyl purchase, Kiss' Double Platinum album (probably the most bang for your buck if you want to listen to some Kiss I think), has a MAJOR problem.

The records are warped! Also I think the second one is scratched on side 3, but at least I was getting something out of it.

Any idea if you can make a warped LP flatter? Or am I doomed to people telling me "don't get bent out of shape -- I mean don't get your records bent out of shape" puns forever?

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Belegorm

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On a music related note, I just got Pink Floyd's new album, "The Endless River," and I really like it, really atmospheric and ambiant. Supposed to be a tribute to Wright; uses a lot of unreleased music from the past.