My fight with Owen Good from Kotaku

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ErgoProxy77

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Edited By ErgoProxy77

 note: sorry about the varying fonts, copy and paste issues
 
A day or two ago, I commented on a story by Owen Good on Kotaku.  It was the one about the woman who held her piss to win a Wii for a radio station competition.  There were new developments in the story, and Owen Good reported on them.  He got his information from an article in the L.A. Times, and linked to it at the bottom of his article.  I read it, and I found that it was strangely similar to Owen's article.  It seemed to me that he just rephrased it and rearranged it.  I commented "Owen Good certainly knows how to rehash a story".  Owen responded "ErgoProxy77 certainly knows how to get himself banned".  He banned me from commenting on Kotaku.  I emailed him about this, and told him I had lost respect for him as a journalist.  He followed up and said: "  You so completely misunderstand what we do as a blog — which is to legitimately aggregate news from other sources in addition to our own original reporting — that I can say your presence as a commenter and a reader adds nothing and won't be missed.".  I then emailed him back saying "Hmmm, and I was taught journalists should be able to handle criticism".  He responded "  I can handle legitimate criticism. I'm not going to let uninformed cheap shots go unanswered, nor am I going to sit for an uncredentialed journalism lecture from someone who doesn't know a fucking thing about the subject."  I then told him that I am a journalism student at Carleton University.  I don't know everything about journalism, but I do know a rehashed story when I see one.  His last reply was "  I have a master of science from Columbia. I'm pretty sure I know, and have done, much more than you.  You confuse your role as a reader with the right to lecture me as my editor.".  My final email to him was this:

 "I'm not lecturing you at all, I was just voicing my opinion, something I have trouble doing now with people like you who ban people because you disagree with them." 
 
What do you think about this?  Am I being a bit of a jerk?  Was he wrong to ban me?  Please comment! 
 

Update

Here is an email Owen Good sent back to me today: 
 
 Let's get back to the original source of the trouble: Your completely uninformed criticism of the post.

What I did, young man, was to read, rewrite, add context, opinion and literary color to — and most importantly, credit another news organization so that my readership could be informed of something they would find interesting but might otherwise miss. Not every reader of a publication with a mandate as specific as Kotaku's — video games — is also a subscriber to the Los Angeles Times.

In no sense of the word did I ever represent the Los Angeles Times' story as my own. Your sneering allegation that what I wrote was a "rehash" is a cheapshot from someone out to prove he knows more than the rest of the world.

The dirty secret here is that news aggregation is practiced by all sorts of mass media. Blogs didn't invent it. I'm sure from your perch as a know-it-all undergraduate journalism student with six clips in the student paper, I'm worse than a plagiarist because everything I write isn't pure, down to the preposition, and originally reported.

But this is the world of the media that is out there. It is legitimate. It is professional. And just because I displeased you with something I wrote does not legitimize your completely unfounded and insulting attack on my credibility.

You have a tremendous amount to learn, young man, and you need to deepen your understanding of journalism beyond the echo chamber of whatever it is you're reading in the Internet commenting threads that support your utterly deformed expectations of the world.

I'm sure your professors are delighted to have you in class.

OSG     
 

Update #2

 
I emailed Brian Crescente and linked to this blog post.  He said I broke the rules and that's why I was banned.  However, I can just make a new account, so they can't really stop me from commenting! 
 
Here is the email: 
  Commenting on Kotaku is in many ways a right. We try to cut out the unrelated name-calling and finger-pointing, no matter who it is directed at, so people can carry on thoughtful discussions on the topic at hand.

In this case you were posting about Owen, not about the subject of his article. Disagreeing with the an editor in a post on the topic that they wrote about will never get you banned, just go look at our threads, almost all of them include plenty of arguments against what a writer is saying.

Save the unrelated accusations and writer critiques for an open thread or the Talk Amongst Yourselves posts.

Hopes that helps you understand.

Thanks,
Brian    
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ErgoProxy77

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#1  Edited By ErgoProxy77

 note: sorry about the varying fonts, copy and paste issues
 
A day or two ago, I commented on a story by Owen Good on Kotaku.  It was the one about the woman who held her piss to win a Wii for a radio station competition.  There were new developments in the story, and Owen Good reported on them.  He got his information from an article in the L.A. Times, and linked to it at the bottom of his article.  I read it, and I found that it was strangely similar to Owen's article.  It seemed to me that he just rephrased it and rearranged it.  I commented "Owen Good certainly knows how to rehash a story".  Owen responded "ErgoProxy77 certainly knows how to get himself banned".  He banned me from commenting on Kotaku.  I emailed him about this, and told him I had lost respect for him as a journalist.  He followed up and said: "  You so completely misunderstand what we do as a blog — which is to legitimately aggregate news from other sources in addition to our own original reporting — that I can say your presence as a commenter and a reader adds nothing and won't be missed.".  I then emailed him back saying "Hmmm, and I was taught journalists should be able to handle criticism".  He responded "  I can handle legitimate criticism. I'm not going to let uninformed cheap shots go unanswered, nor am I going to sit for an uncredentialed journalism lecture from someone who doesn't know a fucking thing about the subject."  I then told him that I am a journalism student at Carleton University.  I don't know everything about journalism, but I do know a rehashed story when I see one.  His last reply was "  I have a master of science from Columbia. I'm pretty sure I know, and have done, much more than you.  You confuse your role as a reader with the right to lecture me as my editor.".  My final email to him was this:

 "I'm not lecturing you at all, I was just voicing my opinion, something I have trouble doing now with people like you who ban people because you disagree with them." 
 
What do you think about this?  Am I being a bit of a jerk?  Was he wrong to ban me?  Please comment! 
 

Update

Here is an email Owen Good sent back to me today: 
 
 Let's get back to the original source of the trouble: Your completely uninformed criticism of the post.

What I did, young man, was to read, rewrite, add context, opinion and literary color to — and most importantly, credit another news organization so that my readership could be informed of something they would find interesting but might otherwise miss. Not every reader of a publication with a mandate as specific as Kotaku's — video games — is also a subscriber to the Los Angeles Times.

In no sense of the word did I ever represent the Los Angeles Times' story as my own. Your sneering allegation that what I wrote was a "rehash" is a cheapshot from someone out to prove he knows more than the rest of the world.

The dirty secret here is that news aggregation is practiced by all sorts of mass media. Blogs didn't invent it. I'm sure from your perch as a know-it-all undergraduate journalism student with six clips in the student paper, I'm worse than a plagiarist because everything I write isn't pure, down to the preposition, and originally reported.

But this is the world of the media that is out there. It is legitimate. It is professional. And just because I displeased you with something I wrote does not legitimize your completely unfounded and insulting attack on my credibility.

You have a tremendous amount to learn, young man, and you need to deepen your understanding of journalism beyond the echo chamber of whatever it is you're reading in the Internet commenting threads that support your utterly deformed expectations of the world.

I'm sure your professors are delighted to have you in class.

OSG     
 

Update #2

 
I emailed Brian Crescente and linked to this blog post.  He said I broke the rules and that's why I was banned.  However, I can just make a new account, so they can't really stop me from commenting! 
 
Here is the email: 
  Commenting on Kotaku is in many ways a right. We try to cut out the unrelated name-calling and finger-pointing, no matter who it is directed at, so people can carry on thoughtful discussions on the topic at hand.

In this case you were posting about Owen, not about the subject of his article. Disagreeing with the an editor in a post on the topic that they wrote about will never get you banned, just go look at our threads, almost all of them include plenty of arguments against what a writer is saying.

Save the unrelated accusations and writer critiques for an open thread or the Talk Amongst Yourselves posts.

Hopes that helps you understand.

Thanks,
Brian    
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JoelTGM

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#2  Edited By JoelTGM

Well if he wasn't doing anything wrong why did he ban you outright?

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Jeust

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#3  Edited By Jeust

Yep, he was wrong.
 
But no one is perfect... Maybe you caught him on a bad day, or that's the way he is.
 
Forget about Kotaku. 
 
There is life elsewhere.

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breadfan

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#4  Edited By breadfan

He seems to be taking this way too seriously. 
 
Very unprofessional on his part.

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Hailinel

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#5  Edited By Hailinel

Wow.  What an asshole.
 
I'll be honest.  As much as I like visiting Kotaku for the stories they link to, Kotaku's staff for the most part is composed some truly unprofessional journalists that seem to think that they can be lax just because Kotaku is "technically" a blog.  I've actually gotten into brief arguments with Luke Plunkett in the past and I'm surprised that he never banned me, given his penchant for writing articles in the most fanboy-baiting manner possible.
 
In short, he was definitely wrong to ban you.  Particularly when you weren't even given a chance to defend your position before he pulled the trigger.

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Al3xand3r

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#6  Edited By Al3xand3r

Plagiarism is what makes the internet go round. At least he linked to the original though. I used to run a Half-Life fansite myself and tons of my news stories were directly ripped by various more known related websites who knew me from how active I was in various communities, with stupid excuses like pointing out how I don't own the news as if that has anything to do with plagiarism. Only Filefront started crediting after I finally managed to contact one of the higher ups succesfully. Every other website's staff were clueless jerks, from the bottom feeder to the site director. Gotta love how they throw the "it's just blogging" card whenever it suits them implying it's not professional standard like journalists are held to, but they sure as hell are paid like anyone else and expect to get in on the same things professionals do. Oh well, fuck him and his kind.

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Claude

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#7  Edited By Claude

Good thing I only comment on Giant Bomb. I would have been banned a long time ago. I get pissed with some of the things written on this site, but I've never seen a rehash of sorts. I still don't think you would get banned here for commenting like that to a staff member.

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MeatXbeatsXman

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#8  Edited By MeatXbeatsXman

Yeah, seemed pretty unnecessary to ban you. Especially considering the circumstances of the ban, makes it look like he banned you merely for pissing him off. I'll stick with Destructoid.

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wefwefasdf

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#9  Edited By wefwefasdf

Banning you was uncalled for. It is rather disheartening.

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Everyones_A_Critic

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I think it was wrong of him to ban you, but it's his loss if he's so far in denial that he can't admit he's plaigerizing (sp?).

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Giantsquirrel

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#11  Edited By Giantsquirrel

Wow, that's surprising. I emailed him a while back about some random story and he didn't come across as an asshole. Though he did have a point in saying Kotaku does hardly any original reporting (which is fine), he shouldn't have banned you for voicing your opinion. There are far worse commenters on Kotaku that deserve the banhammer.

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ThePhantomnaut

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#12  Edited By ThePhantomnaut

Booooo! Sucks duder.

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deactivated-6406b1cb85b6d

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I think you should report this to the Colorandian Bull, Brian Crecente. He will right this wrong with his fury, see video below for shocking proof.
 

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eroticfishcake

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#14  Edited By eroticfishcake

He's a right tosspot for banning you. He's done something wrong and he handled it like a 12 year old.

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zeforgotten

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#15  Edited By zeforgotten

People actually still respect the Kotaku peoples form of "journalism" ? Amazing.. 
 
But on topic: You weren't being a jerk or anything, that should be pretty obvious to everyone.   
There's no such thing as " legitimate" criticism.. Only criticism. And he of all people I've talked to in the past should know this.  
But believe me when I say you're not the only one who he either gets banned or treats badly. It's everyone who isn't padding him on the back so you didn't do anything wrong

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Pinkshley1

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#16  Edited By Pinkshley1

Kotaku is shit

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Kojdog

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#17  Edited By Kojdog

Banning you from Kotaku was missing the point of what his gripe with you was.  It's very easy to grown iron skin when you post your opinion under your own name on the internets but it looks like he was a bit sensitive on that day or in general (don't know anything about him personally to indicate one way or the other).  It wasn't professional but you also don't know what the hell he goes through on a day to day basis.  You could have been less confrontational in the follow-up emails but either way, an outright ban was wrong and arguing with you was downright unprofessional.   
 
You should let it go and keep reading Kotaku if you like it... he should send you an apology for banning you but not for anything he said to you in the subsequent argument.  You both have your points and in this battle, you both lose.   
 
Final message: don't get in fights.
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Snipzor

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#18  Edited By Snipzor

He was being quite the asshole. But I think this has been common place in Kotaku of late, or so I've been told by everyone who is also a game journalist (Or whatever the hell they call them).

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Red

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#19  Edited By Red

Someone's a facist? 
 
 Dude sounds like a tool, anyways. Simply saying that your opinion is more valuable than someone else's based on your experience to win an argument is complete and utter trash.

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ajamafalous

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#20  Edited By ajamafalous

Although I've had just about zero experience with Kotaku aside from the infrequent links directing me to the site from elsewhere, I have to say that the dude sounds like a tool. Banning someone for making a criticizing comment is ridiculous.

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Crono

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#21  Edited By Crono

He banned you out of an insecurity that someone will call him on his "legitimate aggregation."  It is pretty pitiful that his defense is basically to call you names, he doesn't sound worthy of having a job as a "journalist," which really sounds weird to call anyone who covers strictly games.  What hard hitting editorials do these game journalists bring us anyway?

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Brunchies

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#22  Edited By Brunchies

Banning you for commenting on something seems pretty unnecessary and really not a great way to handle a problem. 

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Diamond

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#23  Edited By Diamond

Sounds like a really insecure guy.  I'm surprised you got in an email fight with each other.
 
I don't visit Kotaku anyways.  It's true that these blog-news gaming sites don't really do much work.  They hear of some news from an indirect source and copy paste that over on to their site.

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guiseppe

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#24  Edited By guiseppe

You aren't being a jerk, he is. And he was definately wrong to ban you, really unprofessional of him.

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conker

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#25  Edited By conker
@ErgoProxy77:
Hes a jerk, not you. And you go to Carleton Univeristy too? Sick what year you in?
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delta_ass

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#26  Edited By delta_ass

It's my opinion that it pretty much is just plagiarism, unless they actually take the news from the source and put some sort of unique spin on it, like an opinion piece regarding the news.

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pause422

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#27  Edited By pause422

Owen Good is a fucking idiot entirely. You did nothing wrong at all, and it was all on him. You should actually be able to do something with his responses towards you, in all honesty. He deserves it, for being an uninformed prick who cant come up with his own story.

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lightsoda

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#28  Edited By lightsoda

If someone accused me of plagiarism I'd do he same thing, especially if it's brought up in public before getting even a chance to defend myself.

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oldschool

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#29  Edited By oldschool

I don't go on Kotaku except to read an occasional story so I know nothing of the "journalists" there, but seriously, what a pompous ass - him, not you.  If that kind of rule was applied across the internet, only 6 people worldwide would still be posting on forums  ^-^ 
 
Lucky for me the staff are not sensitive and ignore me as I have made my view very clear on the extremely poor journalism here  :-)

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deactivated-5c5cdba6e0b96

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He sounds like a dick head, I never visit the site anyways.

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apathylad

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#31  Edited By apathylad
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ErgoProxy77

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#32  Edited By ErgoProxy77
@Conker: First year
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ArchScabby

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#33  Edited By ArchScabby

He is an asshole.  You should have been way more aggressive with your emails to him.  He was so completely wrong it would have been justified.

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CaptainTightPants

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Truthfully i think you were both being jerks, you didnt deserve to get banned but your first comment was largely immature on your part.

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Hailinel

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#35  Edited By Hailinel
@ArchScabby said:
" He is an asshole.  You should have been way more aggressive with your emails to him.  He was so completely wrong it would have been justified. "
Being more agressive wouldn't have done any good.  The last thing you want to do when in a situation like this is make Owen look like the smaller of two assholes.
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angelkanarias

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#36  Edited By angelkanarias
@Br3adfan said:
" He seems to be taking this way too seriously.  Very unprofessional on his part. "
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Dark_Jon

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#37  Edited By Dark_Jon

Yeah., I've heard about one of the editors (don't remember who) making fun of Playstation Home when it was in its early stages. Their editos can be real jerks sometimes.

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artofwar420

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#38  Edited By artofwar420

I don't go for Kotaku for journalism, it's just a good place to catch up with random news from OTHER places I don't have time to visit. However from time to time, there are some really interesting articles the editors write themselves. Still, Owen didn't need to be ban you.
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ArchScabby

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#39  Edited By ArchScabby
@Hailinel said:
" @ArchScabby said:
" He is an asshole.  You should have been way more aggressive with your emails to him.  He was so completely wrong it would have been justified. "
Being more agressive wouldn't have done any good.  The last thing you want to do when in a situation like this is make Owen look like the smaller of two assholes. "
no, well... I didn't mean be an asshole, but Owen Good seemed to think it was okay for a "journalist" from a blog such as himself to basically write someone else's story on his blog.  A blog should summarize, or provide an intro for what the story is about and then put a link.  When they just steal someones story and post the entire thing on their blog there is no reason for anyone to link over the the site that deserves the hits for the story.  
I just think he should have called him out on  that more is all.
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Griddler

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#40  Edited By Griddler
@ErgoProxy77: Could you link the story?
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apathylad

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#41  Edited By apathylad
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RidRack

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#42  Edited By RidRack

Dude ive posted on Kotaku how much crap this guy should get. That is totally rude, and something should be done

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iam3green

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#43  Edited By iam3green

man what a disrespectful person. i think the ban was uncalled for.

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Crono

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#44  Edited By Crono

Wow from the latest update that he sent you I just am kinda perplexed.  I mean on one hand the guy stressed professionalism.  He mentions the word, and various forms of it, numerous times.  But most of his remarks seem like that of a forum troll at best.  What a turd.  Oh well, I never visit kotaku anyway, this is the vibe I have always gotten from them and I have always been curious how they ever got so popular.  Maybe I missed out on the site when it was once worth something but I have never really seen anything truly worthwhile there, or at least nothing I couldn't find elsewhere.

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Origina1Penguin

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#45  Edited By Origina1Penguin

It doesn't look like you're going to find anyone here that objects to this being an asshole move on his part.

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Giantsquirrel

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#46  Edited By Giantsquirrel

What's funny is the guy has an apparent "Master's in Science" and yet he works as a copy-and-paster for a Denver-based blog.

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Hailinel

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#47  Edited By Hailinel

Judging by the update, Owen is not just an asshole, but a pedantic one at that.

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manhattan_project

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@RidRack: On Kotaku? 
Edit: Any response?
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ArchScabby

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#49  Edited By ArchScabby

wow.  I bet he wishes those emails weren't showing up on the internet.  They make him look like a major jerk.  If he ever found out anyway.

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Dany

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#50  Edited By Dany

Take it up with a higher up at the blog.