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#51 Posted by NlGHTCRAWLER (1210 posts) -

UGH

#52 Posted by Veektarius (5031 posts) -

When he says "you didn't build that", I thought he was talking about the roads and bridges?

#53 Posted by PenguinDust (12642 posts) -

It's an election year. Everyone is in "Gotcha" mode.

#54 Edited by Seppli (10250 posts) -

@GreggD said:

I'd believe that if I didn't know one person who built their business from the ground up, virtually on their own to be a great success.

Think of any one thing within that business. A pencil on this dude's desk. Think about what all went into that pencil. What all had to be done, and who did it. The wood. The paint. The pencil lead. The machines to put the pencil together. And so forth. You can literally keep on going forever, until practically every productive person in the world has been made complicit to that one pencil.

Just a little mindgame for your consideration.

#55 Posted by Xshinobi (404 posts) -

The Young Turks had a pretty good view of this whole thing:

#56 Posted by TooWalrus (13258 posts) -

He's not wrong. If this is a new thing, people are going to freak the fuck out.

#57 Edited by Seppli (10250 posts) -

@Xshinobi:

That attack add - ain't that lying? Quoting out of context like that? Isn't slander against the law?

People are gonna hear, what they wanna hear, and that's what this is playing on. In bad taste really.

#58 Posted by troll93 (388 posts) -

@erichr said:

@Animasta said:

Isn't the norwegian economy doing well because it's got hella oil?

Same with the Canadian economy. Yay for having hella oil!

Here is Australia we don't have oil... but we have shit tones of coal and other rocks! High five for digging/pumping shit out of the ground.

#59 Posted by crithon (3456 posts) -

I would like to live in a world where we have effective power supply, better roads, water, utilities, just a better system so I could work without worrying about those things. The sad news, is he just said a quote that's PERFECT for the right wing talking heads to go nuts on. It sounds vain and out of touch, it's effective ammunition.

#60 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1822 posts) -

It's amazing that politicians even talk anymore at this point.

#61 Posted by erichr (58 posts) -

@troll93 said:

@erichr said:

@Animasta said:

Isn't the norwegian economy doing well because it's got hella oil?

Same with the Canadian economy. Yay for having hella oil!

Here is Australia we don't have oil... but we have shit tones of coal and other rocks! High five for digging/pumping shit out of the ground.

+1 for resource based economies!

#62 Posted by Kidavenger (3629 posts) -

Seeing how most people here are agreeing with Obama's point; would anyone care to explain how these small businesses aren't already paying their fair share for these things? Are businesses not taxed in the US on income, property taxes, sales taxes etc? are the business owners not taxed personally on their salaries?

Online
#63 Posted by Draxyle (1899 posts) -

@Kidavenger said:

Seeing how most people here are agreeing with Obama's point; would anyone care to explain how these small businesses aren't already paying their fair share for these things? Are businesses not taxed in the US on income, property taxes, sales taxes etc? are the business owners not taxed personally on their salaries?

I don't think Obama is calling for anything further here, tax wise. He's just defending what's already in place against the stream of people who keep claiming that the government did nothing for them.

I could be wrong though.

#64 Posted by Tarsier (1078 posts) -

i just dont even know what to say after reading some of these comments. its quite amazing what conditioning can do to sheep.

#65 Edited by troll93 (388 posts) -

@erichr said:

@troll93 said:

@erichr said:

@Animasta said:

Isn't the norwegian economy doing well because it's got hella oil?

Same with the Canadian economy. Yay for having hella oil!

Here is Australia we don't have oil... but we have shit tones of coal and other rocks! High five for digging/pumping shit out of the ground.

+1 for resource based economies!

We also have the second largest number of sheep in the world, only China beats us.

#66 Posted by GreggD (4515 posts) -

@Seppli said:

@GreggD said:

I'd believe that if I didn't know one person who built their business from the ground up, virtually on their own to be a great success.

Think of any one thing within that business. A pencil on this dude's desk. Think about what all went into that pencil. What all had to be done, and who did it. The wood. The paint. The pencil lead. The machines to put the pencil together. And so forth. You can literally keep on going forever, until practically every productive person in the world has been made complicit to that one pencil.

Just a little mindgame for your consideration.

I understand that, and I considered it, but I'm talking purely from an employee perspective. He ran the place by himself and with his girlfriend (now fiancee), for almost a whole year to get the place off the ground. I don't consider her an employee, because they are joint owners.

#67 Posted by DonutFever (3540 posts) -
@Kidavenger said:

Seeing how most people here are agreeing with Obama's point; would anyone care to explain how these small businesses aren't already paying their fair share for these things? Are businesses not taxed in the US on income, property taxes, sales taxes etc? are the business owners not taxed personally on their salaries?

He's not asking for anymore from small business owners. He's simply stating the importance of taxes and working together.
#68 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

@GreggD said:

@Seppli said:

@GreggD said:

I'd believe that if I didn't know one person who built their business from the ground up, virtually on their own to be a great success.

Think of any one thing within that business. A pencil on this dude's desk. Think about what all went into that pencil. What all had to be done, and who did it. The wood. The paint. The pencil lead. The machines to put the pencil together. And so forth. You can literally keep on going forever, until practically every productive person in the world has been made complicit to that one pencil.

Just a little mindgame for your consideration.

I understand that, and I considered it, but I'm talking purely from an employee perspective. He ran the place by himself and with his girlfriend (now fiancee), for almost a whole year to get the place off the ground. I don't consider her an employee, because they are joint owners.

He didn't get a business loan to start up his company?

#69 Edited by nycnewyork (38 posts) -

@Franstone: the problem with the statement is the context he meant it in. he was implying goverment helped them, but most of your example are family, friends, banks. they are all private individuals / companies not government. that is why people are mad.

#70 Edited by LD50 (412 posts) -

I try not to mistake the main stream medias propaganda with the actual sentiments of the citizens.

Here's my problem with what he said:

The world's top 5 military spenders in 2010.

Figures sourced from the SIPRI Yearbook 2011.

I like building roads, but he's being somewhat dishonest. Those roads are being built in other countries, after we turn it into a parking lot. Usually for resources like oil.

I disagree with that.

EDIT: I have no affiliation with either party. I consider them the crips and the bloods of politics.

#71 Posted by TruthTellah (9484 posts) -

The point that government is necessary and no one has found success alone is correct, but then, it was said in a poor way here. His words got a bit away from him.

Though, hey, politicians are having to talk near 24/7; so, it's no wonder they put their foot in their mouths half the time regardless of what their real meaning is. One side uses this gaffe and the other side uses another. That's just how our incessant media coverage culture is at the moment.

#72 Posted by nycnewyork (38 posts) -

of course both sides will use the mistakes against their openant. they couldn't win an election if they didn't

#73 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

@DonutFever said:

@Kidavenger said:

Seeing how most people here are agreeing with Obama's point; would anyone care to explain how these small businesses aren't already paying their fair share for these things? Are businesses not taxed in the US on income, property taxes, sales taxes etc? are the business owners not taxed personally on their salaries?

He's not asking for anymore from small business owners. He's simply stating the importance of taxes and working together.

They're always asking more from small business owners and we can barely keep up.

I just found this video to help back up how I feel the situation is and I think it fits pretty damn good. Basically a big Corporation, Government circle jerk.

#74 Posted by jakob187 (21763 posts) -

Hrmmm...

As someone who is the Assistant Manager of a small business that WAS literally built by two people with no help from federal aide or government whatsoever, I would say that Obama just doesn't realize how full of shit he is. If anything, he's hurting small business more and more with the fact that the money that employees pay for federal taxes have to be matched by the employer as well. That means that not only do I have money coming out of my pocket for a bunch of shit that the federal government still rarely justifies, but they are also taking my possible RAISE in pay as well.

#75 Edited by troll93 (388 posts) -

@GreggD: @jakob187: The way that I would interperate it, is that one company can't do it all themselves. Let's use car manufacturing as an example. Yes, the have the ability to make the components and assemble them, but the US imports large amounts of the raw materials need for it to work. So, the government built that initial port that allowed for the ships to come into the country, a huge investment that would be hard for a lot of companies to make. The materials are then transported on either roads or train, again both generally done by the government. The point is that if the smartest, most hardworking man in the world was to move into the middle of the desert, with no roads, infrastructure ect, they would be unable to create a successful company.:

#76 Posted by Renahzor (1001 posts) -

He said it because there are more employees than there are employers, so he'll have way more people on his side. His point is success is built on the back of the people (employees) and the government. As someone who's family revolves around a self built small business, we succeeded in spite of the government regulations and our employees(finding a good one of these is difficult, and regulations make it overbearingly costly to do so), not because of them. But then, most people won't care because all they know is Them Bosses be making more money. Just look at this thread for examples.

#77 Posted by jakob187 (21763 posts) -

@troll93 said:

@GreggD: @jakob187: They way that I would interoperate it, is that one company can't do it all themselves. Let's use car manufacturing as an example. Yes, the have the ability to make the components and assemble them, but the US imports large amounts of the raw materials need for it to work. So, the government built that initial port that allowed for the ships to come into the country, a huge investment that would be hard for a lot of companies to make. The materials are then transported on either roads or train, again both generally done by the government. The point is that if the smartest, most hardworking man in the world was to move into the middle of the desert, with no roads, infrastructure ect, they would be unable to create a successful company.:

1. The federal government does not handle any of the local roads and streets. That is the city and state. The federal governement's ONLY job when it comes to "road and infrastructure" is the interstate highways and helping to offer regulations on how roads should be constructed. Otherwise, they aren't doing shit in terms of roads and infrastructure. Obama is taking credit for shit that isn't his to take credit for and talking out of his ass yet again...like always.

2. Before there were even roads, people were able to have successful businesses. The same exists today. If anything, the federal government is taking more from businesses while allowing larger businesses to continue stomping out local business by offering tax breaks to them for location as well as expansion. The same would not be afforded to our business.

3. No one is building a business in the desert except Las Vegas...and they seem to be doing pretty fucking well. Nonetheless, most people aren't going to say "hey, there's a road out to this desert - let's go to that business" unless it's where they live or it's a through trip. EVEN THEN, it doesn't mean there would HAVE to be roads. People used to use horses and many other modes of transportation without roads, and in turn, those people adapt to their conditions in order to get where they need.

4. The federal government is barely even a government anymore. If you look at every one of the decisions that has been passed through Congress or the President's desk in the last 12 - 20 years, they've become a corporation. Hell, they have their own security overseas making sure that the Strait of Hormuz doesn't get shut down because Iran having efficient fuel sources like nuclear facilities (which it still amazes me that we and Japan and many others are allowed to have them but Iran can't because of some bullshit belief that they want to build a missile to kill us all when U.S. reports AND the Ayatollah have both said that they are not interested in building nuclear weaponry!) would mean no oil and no big money.

In the end, as someone who sees what these taxes do to small businesses and can see what Obama would be doing to small businesses because of the things he'd want to do, maybe it puts me in a different position than many of you to say "no, it'll fuck small businesses over pretty hard". Small business owners aren't these big-time moneymakers that everyone thinks they are.

#78 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

@Renahzor said:

He said it because there are more employees than there are employers, so he'll have way more people on his side. His point is success is built on the back of the people (employees) and the government. As someone who's family revolves around a self built small business, we succeeded in spite of the government regulations and our employees(finding a good one of these is difficult, and regulations make it overbearingly costly to do so), not because of them. But then, most people won't care because all they know is Them Bosses be making more money. Just look at this thread for examples.

@jakob187 said:

Hrmmm...

As someone who is the Assistant Manager of a small business that WAS literally built by two people with no help from federal aide or government whatsoever, I would say that Obama just doesn't realize how full of shit he is. If anything, he's hurting small business more and more with the fact that the money that employees pay for federal taxes have to be matched by the employer as well. That means that not only do I have money coming out of my pocket for a bunch of shit that the federal government still rarely justifies, but they are also taking my possible RAISE in pay as well.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who understands what exactly it means to run a business. My family and I went from 10 employees to 5 when the recession hit and years later we are still barely making payroll. Sometimes we didn't even make payroll, even after we didn't pay ourselves so that the employees could have their pay. I know what the idiots are already saying. "Don't suck at business". We don't, that's why we are still surviving and are finally picking up.

I just want to make one thing very clear.

"we succeeded in spite of the government regulations and our employees"

That is the biggest truth about it. There is a constant battle between the government adding new asinine regulations and just plain bad employees. The government doesn't ever help us, but they are always working to make our life a living hell. You know what I dream some times? Not owning a business and just working some shit retail job. Just go to work and come home. Don't have to worry about the DE-9's, 941's, payroll, workers comp, sales taxes, paying the electricity, making payments on the land, worrying about employees coming up with their schemes to sue. The list goes on.

#79 Posted by Levio (1786 posts) -

does it really matter what Obama says? a politician will say anything and everything to get votes.

#80 Posted by AiurFlux (902 posts) -

I agree with him. If people are making tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars per year they should have to pay more tax. Simple as that. I don't agree with him that they didn't build it up and they didn't earn it. Face facts, some of those people worked 20 hour days and worked fucking hard for years to get where they are and them living a lavish lifestyle and hitting the links is their way of relaxing now.

Problem is though that if you hit them to hard some of them won't shy away from moving outside of the US to tax havens. There is a fine balance that needs to be hit where they pay their part for all of the liberties and advantages that they take in business but they also don't feel fucked.

#81 Posted by nycnewyork (38 posts) -

@Levio: yes because most business owners don't understand politics, so they may think its real and not hire.

#82 Posted by DonutFever (3540 posts) -
@AiurFlux said:

I agree with him. If people are making tens of millions, hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars per year they should have to pay more tax. Simple as that. I don't agree with him that they didn't build it up and they didn't earn it. Face facts, some of those people worked 20 hour days and worked fucking hard for years to get where they are and them living a lavish lifestyle and hitting the links is their way of relaxing now.

Problem is though that if you hit them to hard some of them won't shy away from moving outside of the US to tax havens. There is a fine balance that needs to be hit where they pay their part for all of the liberties and advantages that they take in business but they also don't feel fucked.

He isn't saying they didn't build up the businesses. He's saying that they didn't build roads and bridges. Some of those people worked 20 hour days, but some didn't, and they're the ones who make thousands work that long now.
#83 Posted by TheKramer89 (423 posts) -

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

#84 Posted by DonutFever (3540 posts) -
@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Huh? If it's a chicken and egg situation, then you need both the chicken and the egg to function (government and businesses). So... you agree with him?
#85 Posted by SathingtonWaltz (2053 posts) -

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Only to be replace by someone just as terrible.

#86 Posted by Jams (2966 posts) -

@DonutFever said:

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Huh? If it's a chicken and egg situation, then you need both the chicken and the egg to function (government and businesses). So... you agree with him?

There will always be people trying to make a living with or without government whether that be selling yourself to manual labor, selling your own wares or services. A government can help, but they can also ruin it. So no, it isn't a chicken or the egg situation.@SathingtonWaltz said:

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Only to be replace by someone just as terrible.

I agree. A politician is a politician. They're out for themselves only and nobody else. They'll remember the ones who helped get them there, and make everyone else pay for it. There doesn't seem to be any hope to find some one willing and able to fix this country and set it in the right direction and there probably never will be.

#87 Posted by SathingtonWaltz (2053 posts) -

@Jams said:

@DonutFever said:

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Huh? If it's a chicken and egg situation, then you need both the chicken and the egg to function (government and businesses). So... you agree with him?

There will always be people trying to make a living with or without government whether that be selling yourself to manual labor, selling your own wares or services. A government can help, but they can also ruin it. So no, it isn't a chicken or the egg situation.@SathingtonWaltz said:

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Only to be replace by someone just as terrible.

I agree. A politician is a politician. They're out for themselves only and nobody else. They'll remember the ones who helped get them there, and make everyone else pay for it. There doesn't seem to be any hope to find some one willing and able to fix this country and set it in the right direction and there probably never will be.

Ron Paul is one of the few politicians I feel is legitimately sincere, it's just a shame that we disagree on a few points.

#88 Posted by DonutFever (3540 posts) -
@Jams said:

@DonutFever said:

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Huh? If it's a chicken and egg situation, then you need both the chicken and the egg to function (government and businesses). So... you agree with him?

There will always be people trying to make a living with or without government whether that be selling yourself to manual labor, selling your own wares or services. A government can help, but they can also ruin it. So no, it isn't a chicken or the egg situation.

To be clear, I wasn't saying businesses need government to function, I meant modern countries need both to function.
#89 Posted by TooWalrus (13258 posts) -

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

So 2016?

#90 Edited by nycnewyork (38 posts) -

unless the economy gets significantly worse he will win, but we also will have a stagnant economy for 4 more years.

#91 Edited by Jams (2966 posts) -

@DonutFever said:

@Jams said:

@DonutFever said:

@TheKramer89 said:

Sooooo, who pays the taxes that fund all of those government programs? It's a chicken and egg situation. Fuck that guy. He's a real prick and I can't wait to see him out of the white house.

Huh? If it's a chicken and egg situation, then you need both the chicken and the egg to function (government and businesses). So... you agree with him?

There will always be people trying to make a living with or without government whether that be selling yourself to manual labor, selling your own wares or services. A government can help, but they can also ruin it. So no, it isn't a chicken or the egg situation.

To be clear, I wasn't saying businesses need government to function, I meant modern countries need both to function.

Yeah you're right. In modern times, we need both to keep living like we do. If the government dissolved, we'd probably be sent back to the old west. If businesses were dissolved, well I assume the government would have to have work camps or something so that stuff could be made or else we'd be using what's currently already been made and keep recycling it until we run out of stuff to use.

#92 Posted by troll93 (388 posts) -

@jakob187: I wasn't meaning to refer to the federal government, just the abstract 'government', encapsulating all levels. I support, at least here is Australia, smaller federal government, don;t have much opinion of the US because I don'y know much about the separation. I was not intending to come in sounding like I'm supporting Obama, just offering my interpretation of the comment. Both yours, and my government have serious problems that need to be addressed.

Las Vagas is able to be a successful city full of successful companies because the infrastructure was built to allow it to be i.e. roads, water systems. Through all of history, for people/nation to become 'wealthy', the government had to build roads, ports, water transportation i.e. infrastructure. See Rome, Egypt, Incas, British Empire (counting the British East India company as essentially part of the government, as they were in my opinion) so on so forth. I can't think of the top of my head of large, successfully 'peoples' that didn't engage in government sponsored infrastructure projects. A claim may be made that middle ages Europe is an exception, but I would say that they continued to use the infrastructure that the Romans built. What I'm trying to say is that I believe, and what I think that he was trying to say, is that for the opportunity for companies to become successful, there needs to be the infrastructure, and the government has historical been the ones that provide it.

None of this is to take away from people that build there own company, as the son of a self employed electrician and the brother of a self employed glassier, I fully respect the work that it takes. However, my father and brother couldn't have opened and become relatively successfully without the infrastructure available by the government. They receive a lot of the credit, but not all. Also, here in Australia the government was, and to a certain extent is still being pretty good about supporting them when the times were getting hard i.e. able to claim back losses in tax, no 100% sure about it, but it seemed to be better than what a lot of the US got.

As for small bushiness, I think that should receive a lot more support, I am fully aware that a lot of small business owners just break even and they are doing good right now with that. These thoughts are about business larger than yours large-mid to large business.

#93 Posted by Gruff182 (877 posts) -

Not that I'm saying I'd vote either way, but I love how the opposition videos choose to attack his poor wording, rather than the point everyone knows he's making.

It's lose/lose, you can (fairly) disagree with him, but that puts you on the side with sniveling cowards.

Politics :)

#94 Edited by KyleEA (16 posts) -
#95 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7100 posts) -
#96 Posted by mlarrabee (3064 posts) -

@Mushir: I think what he said was blown way out of proportion by most of the conservative media.

I don't, however, see any logical reason for a disparate tax rate. In America, each citizen should receive the same services from the federal government, and so should pay equally for those services. If the opposite were true, then higher earners should pay more for everything, because they can better afford to stimulate the consumer economy. Either equality exists in both the private and public sectors, or it exists in neither.

Two people, with identical taxes for identical public services, should have identical opportunity for advancement through innovation and industriousness. This is why lobbyists have no place in a properly functioning and truly just government.

#97 Posted by nixatron (126 posts) -

@ShadowConqueror said:

Make more, pay more. Period.

The people who do make more, already pay more. Period.

#98 Posted by Jace (1096 posts) -

@Dan_CiTi said:

Title should be "If You Have Wealth, You Didn't Earn It At All".

Yeah, and fuck anyone who agrees with that.

#99 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -

With every thread on here or news item I read, I become more and more thankful I am not American.

#100 Posted by JeanLuc (3608 posts) -

What Obama said makes sense to me. I just think he could have worded it better.