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#151 Posted by Humanity (8808 posts) -

@MAGZine: I agree with most of that and it's definitely not a fuck the people situation. Like I mentioned my only case was that talking off the cuff as politicians often do in those sort of situations, his comment can be easily misconstrued as dismissive towards the small business owners, which as you said is not the aim of that comment. As such you mentioning of all the people that come before you I thought was a bit of a stretch as of course we owe a lot to our teachers, parents and mentors that helped shape us, but marking them as directly responsible for someones current well being as you appeared to have done in your argument seemed silly to me at best. Taxes are important for a country to function properly and it's important that we all help shape the nation we live in as real life isn't some idealistic Ayn Rand fantasy where the strong, selfish industrialist will persevere over the unmotivated common flock that work for anothers benefit - but thats a whole 'nother topic.

#152 Posted by FilipHolm (667 posts) -

Definitely agree with him. Sometimes I see sides of Obama hinting that he could've been a great president.

#153 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

@MAGZine said:

@SeriouslyNow: I'm from Canada, and I'm exceptionally proud of our healthcare system and it's founder, Tommy Douglas. I believe in helping those who need it, and providing essential services affordably. I do not believe that corporations are capable of handing our most integral functions, since profit is always a factor. Socialist is perhaps a bit far, but I certainly have no issue paying taxes for the good of the country.

Dude, I was totally joking. I'm Aussie and also believe in single payer systems in general. Corporate interests are almost always perpendicular to individual needs; they intersect at one small point but otherwise run in two completely different directions. Proper taxation and proper division of services based on those taxes is the only way that individual needs will get fairly met for almost everyone in a world where capitalism is fundamental to society.

#154 Posted by golguin (3842 posts) -

@MAGZine said:

@Humanity said:

@MAGZine said:

@the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG said:

@Karkarov said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

I think you've missed the point entirely.

No, not really. Obama is an idiot and a politician is the last person who needs to give a speech about people taking credit for others work.

Yep, you missed the point entirely.

Not only did he miss the point entirely, but he wrote off everyone except himself as responsible for a promotion. Not his math teachers, or those who taught him to read and write. Not anyone even remotely responsible for his current good health or wellbeing. Not the farmers who grew his food, the people at the plants who processed it, the roads it was transported by. Not the people paving those roads. Not the electricity for powering every step of the way, including preparing the food. All him. Also all him for all of the clientele that his company services, or his fellow colleagues. Nobody to thank but him. He doesn't owe anyone anything. And Obama is at fault for all problems.

(I like food as example because of how heavily subsidized it is, without people even knowing it. People would be abhorred at the cost of food if it wasn't as heavily subsidized as it is today. And that's just the food itself, nevermind any intermediary functions.)

You can't seriously trickle it down like that with a straight face. When you get that promotion at work you're not going to seek out the 30 construction workers that paved the road in front of your house which allowed you to get to work on time and thank each and every one of them for helping you out. I don't want to speak for but I think it's understood what Obama meant. Yes, all those things you mentioned such as farmers and whatnot make up the ecosystem in America. While I don't necessarily agree that Obama is an idiot and doesn't know what he is talking about, I do agree this is political jargon thats just used to incite voters and was not used very well. The phrasing of his message was erronous to the point of being somewhat insulting to the self made business' that thrived on their own. There is a difference between seeking help with your business by getting a government grant or loan from a bank, and Joe Shmoe selling you a cup of coffee every morning.

If you're going to disagree with someone don't be obnoxious about it by saying "huh you missed the point entirely" and thats it. Elaborate on how your view, which you think is correct, differs from the other person. Theres nothing worse than just saying someone is wrong in a demeaning fashion and then walking away from the discussion.

I'm not saying you should thank the people who build your roads and whatever else. Well, I mean, you should, but... yeah. The point I was trying to make is that it's impossible to say "yep, I did it all and fuck the government and their taxes, we'd be better off without them" without scrutiny. Granted, that isn't what he said, but the point stands. Karkarov may have been the driving force in getting his Promotion, but all things considered, the opportunity was afforded to him thanks to the taxes paid by others, and the services that those taxes provided, like construction workers, food subsidies and teachers.

I don't think that Obama's most pointed words were for small business owners, but for large (or at least larger) business owners who felt taxation was unfair. Obama wasn't reading off a script, and without proofreaders and copyeditors going over his text, sometimes the wrong thing can end up coming out. I could pick apart his argument, but it's too late and I'm too tired. It's got some fairly obvious flaws, though, and, as stated, misses the point. Nobody is denying that someone who build a business is a "self made business man," as Karkarov suggests. Obama is just suggesting that it's important to remember that your success as a business person is likely due to the prior successes of the economic ecosystem as a whole, and the public funding that made it happen.

@SeriouslyNow: I'm from Canada, and I'm exceptionally proud of our healthcare system and it's founder, Tommy Douglas. I believe in helping those who need it, and providing essential services affordably. I do not believe that corporations are capable of handing our most integral functions, since profit is always a factor. Socialist is perhaps a bit far, but I certainly have no issue paying taxes for the good of the country.

My first time jumping in this thread and I can say that one dude missed the point entirely.

I think a pretty simple explanation of this idea is a person playing a team sport like basketball versus a solo sport like singles tennis.

Obama is putting forth the idea that we as a society are playing a team sport. We have different players taking on different roles to propel the team to victory. Some players contribute more than others to win, but everyone is needed in the end.

Republicans play tennis and feel that their victory is achieved through their own personal skill. They may have had a coach to teach them proper techniques and other players to practice with them, but they'll say they got their skill through their own work. If you tell them they didn't get there on their own they'll counter with not needing to thank their racket manufacturer or the child in China that made their shoe.

Children here grow up in a society that provides them with the infrastructure to live and mature. A kid growing up in a poor area is automatically put at a disadvantage because the infrastructure (schools, roads, parks, police, etc.) in their community doesn't provide the same opportunity as someone living in a better neighborhood. The whole point of taxes is to help those people, not through handing them $5, but by providing a safe place to fulfill their potential.

The whole Republican ideology seems to be, "I got mine, fuck everyone else."

#155 Posted by WickedCobra03 (2102 posts) -

@Franstone said:

He's absolutely right, but people are too full of themselves to admit it.

At some point I'd say 99.99% of the people he's talking about got some sort of help along the way.

Either being born into something, help from family, friends, social circles/networking, the people that work with/for you or even a loan for school or to start said business.

I say it's hilarious that one could think they are so great that they got where they were with help from absolutely no one.

Basically this. I am not swinging one way or another with politics because I am not a fan. But he totally has a point, business owners always think that they are the best, brightest and most motivated, and thats what got them there... NOTHING ELSE.

#156 Posted by golguin (3842 posts) -

@WickedCobra03 said:

@Franstone said:

He's absolutely right, but people are too full of themselves to admit it.

At some point I'd say 99.99% of the people he's talking about got some sort of help along the way.

Either being born into something, help from family, friends, social circles/networking, the people that work with/for you or even a loan for school or to start said business.

I say it's hilarious that one could think they are so great that they got where they were with help from absolutely no one.

Basically this. I am not swinging one way or another with politics because I am not a fan. But he totally has a point, business owners always think that they are the best, brightest and most motivated, and thats what got them there... NOTHING ELSE.

Exactly. I'm very curious why those people are so unwilling to admit to themselves and everyone else that they didn't do it on their own. They have some deep psychological shit to be so unwilling to see that fact. It's like simply saying it will make someone take their money away.

#157 Posted by Benny (1947 posts) -

Funny how a metaphor about roads and bridges becomes fuel for Fox news for weeks.

#158 Posted by Kidavenger (3509 posts) -

@golguin said:

@WickedCobra03 said:

@Franstone said:

He's absolutely right, but people are too full of themselves to admit it.

At some point I'd say 99.99% of the people he's talking about got some sort of help along the way.

Either being born into something, help from family, friends, social circles/networking, the people that work with/for you or even a loan for school or to start said business.

I say it's hilarious that one could think they are so great that they got where they were with help from absolutely no one.

Basically this. I am not swinging one way or another with politics because I am not a fan. But he totally has a point, business owners always think that they are the best, brightest and most motivated, and thats what got them there... NOTHING ELSE.

Exactly. I'm very curious why those people are so unwilling to admit to themselves and everyone else that they didn't do it on their own. They have some deep psychological shit to be so unwilling to see that fact. It's like simply saying it will make someone take their money away.

Who is saying that?

#159 Posted by Drebin_893 (2902 posts) -

Since I started becoming educated in US politics and having an active interest in it, I've always thought of Obama as really embarrassing and almost impotent.

#160 Posted by Jams (2959 posts) -

@golguin said:

@WickedCobra03 said:

@Franstone said:

He's absolutely right, but people are too full of themselves to admit it.

At some point I'd say 99.99% of the people he's talking about got some sort of help along the way.

Either being born into something, help from family, friends, social circles/networking, the people that work with/for you or even a loan for school or to start said business.

I say it's hilarious that one could think they are so great that they got where they were with help from absolutely no one.

Basically this. I am not swinging one way or another with politics because I am not a fan. But he totally has a point, business owners always think that they are the best, brightest and most motivated, and thats what got them there... NOTHING ELSE.

Exactly. I'm very curious why those people are so unwilling to admit to themselves and everyone else that they didn't do it on their own. They have some deep psychological shit to be so unwilling to see that fact. It's like simply saying it will make someone take their money away.

Where do you think the money for those projects come from? The magical majikal money tree at area 51? You didn't build that? Maybe not but we sure as fuck funded it.

From Susan Nathan, former About.com Guide

Once you hire staff, you must start paying payroll taxes for each individual hired on. Payroll taxes include federal income, Social Security and Medicare. Depending on where your business is, this may also include state and city taxes.

Before paying taxes, all businesses must acquire a Federal Employer Identification Number (EIN) from the US government. Once a business has an EIN, they can file payroll taxes with the government. Employers are required to withhold the full amount of federal income tax. Employers are also required to withhold half of the Social Security tax and half of the Medicare tax from each employee’s pay check, and pay the remaining half of Social Security and Medicare taxes themselves.

  • Unemployment Tax

    In addition to the payroll taxes listed above, employers must pay an unemployment tax for each individual that works at the company. This is called State and Federal Unemployment Taxes (SUTA and FUTA). The tax rate for FUTA is 6.2%, and based on the first $7,000 paid in wages to each employee during the year. Employers who pay their SUTA on a timely basis receive an offset credit of up to 5.4%. SUTA taxes vary by state.
  • Federal Income Tax

    To figure out federal taxes, employers should have employees fill out a mandatory IRS W-4 form. This form is used to figure out federal taxes, and state and city taxes where applicable. To calculate total federal tax, use the employee's W-4, Employer's Tax Guide and Supplemental Employer's Tax Guide.
  • Social Security Tax

    Social Security tax makes up one half of FICA (Federal Insurance Contributions Act). The tax rate for Social Security during 2008 is 6.2% of each employee’s salary, with the employer paying a matching amount. Both the employer and employee are only responsible for a limited amount of Social Security tax. This amount is paid for anything earned up to a wage base of $102,000 for the year 2008.
  • Medicare Tax

    The other half of FICA is Medicare. Employers must withhold 1.45% of each employee's salary for the Medicare tax. In addition, employers must pay a matching amount.
  • State Income Tax

    Depending on the state where a business is located, employers and employees may be required to pay state income tax. Taxes vary by state.
  • City and County Income Tax

    Though there aren’t many cities or counties with an income tax, a few, like New York City, do have this tax. Check with the local government to see if there is an applicable local tax.
#161 Posted by SpartyOn (500 posts) -

@SathingtonWaltz said:

I think he worded what he was trying to say really, really badly. I agree somewhat, but I also feel that he is devaluing the hard work of individuals. Yes it's impossible to go from being born in the wilds to being a successful business tycoon with no help from anyone anywhere, but to outright state that "You didn't build that" is taking the point too far.

Why is that taking it too far? For a person to say he/she built a business by himself is discounting the enormous amount of people who were vital in that success. What Obama said is simply the truth. The whole concept of being "hurt" or being sensitive to that fact is the mindset that Obama was attacking in this speech. By wording it this way he brought the point home to those who think about success and such in terms of personal wealth...in other words, he worded it perfectly.

#162 Posted by Tackchevy (261 posts) -

I usually stay out of the political talk, but I have to wade in on this one.... I agree that the wording was terrible, and it opened him up to all of the contextual slamming that is happening right now. We owe "the collective good" a lot for building the infrastructure that allows people to be sucessful. However, people that make money already "paid for that" - the top 20% of income earners pay almost all of the federal tax revenue. And continue to pay for it annually. Or pay for it through payroll and corporate income taxes on their business. The idea that someone who has labored and built a business doesn't pay their share is wrong and insulting to anyone that owns a business.

So, by now I've probably been judged one way or the other, but I'll go on... The main issue is that they're attacking the wrong side of the budget issue. Even if the government were to miraculously seize the assets of the top 2% of people in the country, that would total less than a trillion dollars, not enough to cover the deficit for a single year. And that's seizing all assets. Haggling over whether to tax income at 35 or 39%, or whether dividend and capital gains should be raised, that isn't going to fix anything. Unless congress starts passing budgets that freeze or lower costs, we're never going to get anywhere; trying to squeeze more revenue is a futile effort, and will lead to more of the top payers "pulling a Saverin" and getting out of the system.

#163 Edited by Computron (2 posts) -

I think it's funny people attacking Fox News, as if the liberal CNN, NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC, etc. haven't done the EXACT same thing for years. Take your blinders off. This is the political landscape in America today. Sad, but true.

And I agree with everything in that last paragraph of Tackchevy's post.

#164 Posted by EXTomar (4495 posts) -

I just because some other source does a terrible job of presenting a level view doesn't give Fox a reason to take it is tilted stance.

Online
#165 Posted by AndyAce83 (118 posts) -

@Animasta: Yes. We live on oil, fish and smugness.

#166 Edited by Draxyle (1790 posts) -

@EXTomar said:

I just because some other source does a terrible job of presenting a level view doesn't give Fox a reason to take it is tilted stance.

Indeed; I hate seeing that argument being made so constantly. Watching any television news is a bad idea, but Fox News goes above and beyond bias into outright lies and manipulation to the level you would normally find in Orwellian books. It's a complete false equivalency to put Fox in the same category as those other networks.

But either way, no sane person should watch TV news.

#167 Posted by EXTomar (4495 posts) -

And more on that point: When people complain about Fox it isn't because they hate what they say but they think Fox does a terrible job and is overt in their agenda. Or in other words, people complain about Fox because Fox is doing a terrible job at covering news. How else do people get them to be a better news source other than directly criticize them?

Online
#168 Posted by theANCIENTgray (78 posts) -

It always shocks me that this sort of thing is so strictly opposed. If I was rich, I couldn't even begin to understand what to do with all of my money. I'd get the usual things: a nice house, a good car, maybe a miniature waterpark in my back yard, but I couldn't live in lavish excess the way some millionaires do. Luxury is one thing, but buying five Bentleys sounds ridiculous. I understand that pride comes with success, but don't let pride be a placeholder for greed.

#169 Posted by No0b0rAmA (1490 posts) -

If we lived in a fascist utopia, class warfare wouldn't be a problem!

#170 Posted by 2HeadedNinja (1541 posts) -

@Karkarov said:

@PrivateIronTFU said:

I think you've missed the point entirely.

No, not really. Obama is an idiot and a politician is the last person who needs to give a speech about people taking credit for others work.

no, he was right ... you missed the point by about 23 miles.

#171 Posted by Spoonman671 (4555 posts) -
@theANCIENTgray said:

It always shocks me that this sort of thing is so strictly opposed. If I was rich, I couldn't even begin to understand what to do with all of my money. I'd get the usual things: a nice house, a good car, maybe a miniature waterpark in my back yard, but I couldn't live in lavish excess the way some millionaires do. Luxury is one thing, but buying five Bentleys sounds ridiculous. I understand that pride comes with success, but don't let pride be a placeholder for greed.

Unless you're the guy building the Bentleys.
#172 Posted by Subjugation (4718 posts) -

@No0b0rAmA said:

If we lived in a fascist utopia, class warfare wouldn't be a problem!

For the Motherland!

#173 Posted by theANCIENTgray (78 posts) -

@Spoonman671 said:

@theANCIENTgray said:

It always shocks me that this sort of thing is so strictly opposed. If I was rich, I couldn't even begin to understand what to do with all of my money. I'd get the usual things: a nice house, a good car, maybe a miniature waterpark in my back yard, but I couldn't live in lavish excess the way some millionaires do. Luxury is one thing, but buying five Bentleys sounds ridiculous. I understand that pride comes with success, but don't let pride be a placeholder for greed.

Unless you're the guy building the Bentleys.

Indeed...indeed.

"Honey, these need to go."

"THIS IS MY WORK!!!!!"

#174 Posted by salad10203 (654 posts) -

@MariachiMacabre said:

@salad10203

I am glad he said it, he basically got Romney elected with one sentence.

That's the funniest shit I've ever read.

Thanks, : ), I am happy Obama is getting the boot as well.

#175 Posted by tunaburn (1883 posts) -

2 reasons fox news is a joke

1. Bill O'Reilly

2. Glenn Beck

#176 Posted by golguin (3842 posts) -

@Jams said:

@golguin said:

@WickedCobra03 said:

@Franstone said:

He's absolutely right, but people are too full of themselves to admit it.

At some point I'd say 99.99% of the people he's talking about got some sort of help along the way.

Either being born into something, help from family, friends, social circles/networking, the people that work with/for you or even a loan for school or to start said business.

I say it's hilarious that one could think they are so great that they got where they were with help from absolutely no one.

Basically this. I am not swinging one way or another with politics because I am not a fan. But he totally has a point, business owners always think that they are the best, brightest and most motivated, and thats what got them there... NOTHING ELSE.

Exactly. I'm very curious why those people are so unwilling to admit to themselves and everyone else that they didn't do it on their own. They have some deep psychological shit to be so unwilling to see that fact. It's like simply saying it will make someone take their money away.

Where do you think the money for those projects come from? The magical majikal money tree at area 51? You didn't build that? Maybe not but we sure as fuck funded it.

From Susan Nathan, former About.com Guide

Once you hire staff, you must start paying payroll taxes for each individual hired on. Payroll taxes include federal income, Social Security and Medicare. Depending on where your business is, this may also include state and city taxes.

Before paying taxes, all businesses must acquire a Federal Employer Identification Number (EIN) from the US government. Once a business has an EIN, they can file payroll taxes with the government. Employers are required to withhold the full amount of federal income tax. Employers are also required to withhold half of the Social Security tax and half of the Medicare tax from each employee’s pay check, and pay the remaining half of Social Security and Medicare taxes themselves.

  • Unemployment Tax

    In addition to the payroll taxes listed above, employers must pay an unemployment tax for each individual that works at the company. This is called State and Federal Unemployment Taxes (SUTA and FUTA). The tax rate for FUTA is 6.2%, and based on the first $7,000 paid in wages to each employee during the year. Employers who pay their SUTA on a timely basis receive an offset credit of up to 5.4%. SUTA taxes vary by state.
  • Federal Income Tax

    To figure out federal taxes, employers should have employees fill out a mandatory IRS W-4 form. This form is used to figure out federal taxes, and state and city taxes where applicable. To calculate total federal tax, use the employee's W-4, Employer's Tax Guide and Supplemental Employer's Tax Guide.
  • Social Security Tax

    Social Security tax makes up one half of FICA (Federal Insurance Contributions Act). The tax rate for Social Security during 2008 is 6.2% of each employee’s salary, with the employer paying a matching amount. Both the employer and employee are only responsible for a limited amount of Social Security tax. This amount is paid for anything earned up to a wage base of $102,000 for the year 2008.
  • Medicare Tax

    The other half of FICA is Medicare. Employers must withhold 1.45% of each employee's salary for the Medicare tax. In addition, employers must pay a matching amount.
  • State Income Tax

    Depending on the state where a business is located, employers and employees may be required to pay state income tax. Taxes vary by state.
  • City and County Income Tax

    Though there aren’t many cities or counties with an income tax, a few, like New York City, do have this tax. Check with the local government to see if there is an applicable local tax.

Is this an attempt to prove the point we are making because that is essentially what that post is doing. Everyone pays taxes in one form or another. No single person is responsible for funding repairs on infrastructure or providing this or that social service. Its the reason why taxes aren't voluntary. You don't get to pay into those things only you care about.

YOU personally didn't contribute a dime to what already existed before you were born so its silly to align yourself with this magical "we" that supposedly funded all past and future projects. I'm assuming this "we" is some particular group of people in a tax bracket that you feel deserves credit for paying their taxes instead of the "everyone" group.

Actually, if you feel so passionate about the people who provide the funds what do you think of the people doing the ACTUAL WORK to build these things? When I say actual work I don't mean work that provided money for those people to do the work, I mean the people digging the ditches.

#177 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7049 posts) -
@salad10203

@MariachiMacabre said:

@salad10203

I am glad he said it, he basically got Romney elected with one sentence.

That's the funniest shit I've ever read.

Thanks, : ), I am happy Obama is getting the boot as well.

Yeah I'm sure that single sentence ( he was right, by the way) will completely erase any feelings people had that Mitt Romney is from another planet who has no idea how the average American thinks or feels.
#178 Posted by Renahzor (991 posts) -

The amount of people in this thread that have never and likely will never create anything for themselves is staggering. Let me break down exactly why what he said is completely reprehensible. It may simply be a mis-wording of what he meant but honestly it rings pretty true with his policies. The reason why it works and so many people will agree is as I said before, the majority of people will never be business owners, they will be employees. His point is simple, the government and people under you built everything for you, your trials, errors, sacrifices and risks mean nothing.

To the point, the line "If you've got a business, you didn't build that" is about the farthest thing from the truth that you can possibly get. The majority of business owners own small businesses, not multi- billion dollar a year conglomerates, they are not by in large the 1%. These people risk their homes, sacrifice countless hours to their craft, and in the end, get rewarded last for any success they manage to eek out. To suggest these people didn't build what they have in such broad strokes is asinine and insulting. But it is exactly the attitude you get from a lifetime of handouts and never working for a paycheck, everyone else must come by their success the same way. It is the idea of marginalizing success that is so, frankly, idiotic.

We don't say "you didn't earn those grades, someone else did that work", or someone's success in a sport is due to the society we've built not personal drive coupled with natural ability and incredible sacrifice. But there has been a push lately to envy and despise successful business people, and now its coming down to the point he can paint with broad strokes and half the people don't even see a problem with the sentiment behind berating success. If you don't see why this would be insulting to someone who's risked(and more often than not had very close run-ins with) losing their house along with everything else they own to be in business for themselves, then you're missing the point entirely.

Finally I'll say again, small business owners largely succeed not because of government regulations, taxes, permits, licenses, etc. They do not succeed because of employees and the unemployment, work comp, lack of production, lack of standards, and general incompetence that trying to find a good employee bring with it. They succeed despite these hurdles through hard work of their own, innovation, and sacrifice.

#179 Posted by Jams (2959 posts) -

@golguin:

We as in "We the people". Saying "you didn't build that" to me means the same as "business owners of past and present didn't contribute to any government projects". When in fact, businesses have to match their employees taxes and pay extra. I think he also solidifies my understanding of what he's saying when he also mentions how "you're not special", "you're not not smart" etc. He's singling out business owners. Whether he meant to or not (probably meant to single out corporations, but he used a blanketed statement that covers all businesses from 1 person to 1 million). I really doubt most business owners took what he said out of context, because the rest of his speech backs up this first part.

I'm assuming this "we" is some particular group of people in a tax bracket that you feel deserves credit for paying their taxes instead of the "everyone" group.

There you go assuming. That's a part of this countries problem. Everyone is trying to separate themselves into wealth classes. When someone doesn't agree with your points of view you automatically assume, "Well, he must be some big wig rich guy then, what does he know?". That's not good. Go and really try to start a business and see how it really is. It's one of those things that you can't really comprehend unless you're in deep with it.

Actually, if you feel so passionate about the people who provide the funds what do you think of the people doing the ACTUAL WORK to build these things? When I say actual work I don't mean work that provided money for those people to do the work, I mean the people digging the ditches.

Those "people" are my friends and family. Some of them came from jobs digging the ditches and brought themselves up. Some still do it and are just as well off as me and my parents. It provides a job for the people who aren't good at school and the political bullshit that you have to go through with uppity desk jobs.

I don't know what ridiculous impression you made up about who I am, but I can tell you that it's wrong. I'm now going to assume you are a college kid arm chair hippy who thinks he knows what's best in the world because of what looks best on paper. But in reality has little to no experience in the real workforce and how it actually feels to struggle with running a business.

#180 Posted by BRNK (306 posts) -

The U.S. has a serious issue with Self-Serving Bias. I don't know if it came from our parents telling all of us that we're special, from believing the (fictional) American Dream, or someplace else.... but it's an issue. An issue that is especially prevalent in politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias

#181 Edited by MAGZine (435 posts) -

@Renahzor said:

The amount of people in this thread that have never and likely will never create anything for themselves is staggering. Let me break down exactly why what he said is completely reprehensible. It may simply be a mis-wording of what he meant but honestly it rings pretty true with his policies. The reason why it works and so many people will agree is as I said before, the majority of people will never be business owners, they will be employees. His point is simple, the government and people under you built everything for you, your trials, errors, sacrifices and risks mean nothing.

You just went and said "here is his point," and then said something completely different. Your own interpretation that misrepresents his point. Very fox news-ish of you.

#182 Posted by Spoonman671 (4555 posts) -
@BRNK said:

The U.S. has a serious issue with Self-Serving Bias. I don't know if it came from our parents telling all of us that we're special, from believing the (fictional) American Dream, or someplace else.... but it's an issue. An issue that is especially prevalent in politics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias

Hey guys, BRNK included a wikipedia link!
#183 Posted by ShenaniganZ (65 posts) -

I feel like were having a debate on common sense. This country is so ignorant. Everything that the media portrays as the "big story" is all a smoke screen to distract from what really is going on. Thank god we pay good and smart people from other nations come here to live the american dream. Cause we sure as hell aren't living it.

#184 Posted by golguin (3842 posts) -

@Jams said:

@golguin:

We as in "We the people". Saying "you didn't build that" to me means the same as "business owners of past and present didn't contribute to any government projects". When in fact, businesses have to match their employees taxes and pay extra. I think he also solidifies my understanding of what he's saying when he also mentions how "you're not special", "you're not not smart" etc. He's singling out business owners. Whether he meant to or not (probably meant to single out corporations, but he used a blanketed statement that covers all businesses from 1 person to 1 million). I really doubt most business owners took what he said out of context, because the rest of his speech backs up this first part.

I'm assuming this "we" is some particular group of people in a tax bracket that you feel deserves credit for paying their taxes instead of the "everyone" group.

There you go assuming. That's a part of this countries problem. Everyone is trying to separate themselves into wealth classes. When someone doesn't agree with your points of view you automatically assume, "Well, he must be some big wig rich guy then, what does he know?". That's not good. Go and really try to start a business and see how it really is. It's one of those things that you can't really comprehend unless you're in deep with it.

Actually, if you feel so passionate about the people who provide the funds what do you think of the people doing the ACTUAL WORK to build these things? When I say actual work I don't mean work that provided money for those people to do the work, I mean the people digging the ditches.

Those "people" are my friends and family. Some of them came from jobs digging the ditches and brought themselves up. Some still do it and are just as well off as me and my parents. It provides a job for the people who aren't good at school and the political bullshit that you have to go through with uppity desk jobs.

I don't know what ridiculous impression you made up about who I am, but I can tell you that it's wrong. I'm now going to assume you are a college kid arm chair hippy who thinks he knows what's best in the world because of what looks best on paper. But in reality has little to no experience in the real workforce and how it actually feels to struggle with running a business.

"We the people" built it and then you continue to talk about business owners of the past and present having to match their employees taxes. You yourself are separating people into employees and employers. I don't see how you can think that "you didn't build that" means "business owners of past and present didn't contribute to any government projects".

We are talking about an individual person feeling they owe nothing to the society they grew up in when EVERYONE in the past contributed. It doesn't matter if you were a small business owner, a ditch digger, a cop, some oil industry tycoon, or whatever you want to come up with. EVERYONE in the past contributed to what makes up the US today. You can be successful here and do whatever it is you do because this country can provide opportunities that are not found in other countries. It's possible to be successful in other parts of the world, but its a hell of a lot harder because they don't have what generations here have built up.

I don't believe I ever made any comment regarding my impression of you or anyone else in this thread. Everything I've said has been directed at the IDEA that people feel they don't owe society anything and everything they have in life was solely achieved through their skill and hard work and nothing else.

However, you can go ahead and directly paint me as a "college kid arm chair hippy" since it seems that my thoughts and feelings on this issue warrant that kind of description. Only people fitting that description you just provided can have my ideas regarding this issue right?

#185 Posted by Slag (3995 posts) -

@golguin said:

We are talking about an individual person feeling they owe nothing to the society they grew up in when EVERYONE in the past contributed. It doesn't matter if you were a small business owner, a ditch digger, a cop, some oil industry tycoon, or whatever you want to come up with. EVERYONE in the past contributed to what makes up the US today. You can be successful here and do whatever it is you do because this country can provide opportunities that are not found in other countries. It's possible to be successful in other parts of the world, but its a hell of a lot harder because they don't have what generations here have built up.

I think you have to admit it's pretty condescending that the President seemed to assume that all Business owners are these individual people who are complete unobservant narcissists. If he didn't mean to paint them all with the same brush, he should made it clear who he was talking about. He's the one that has framed this whole foolish non-debate into two sides by clearly labeling an "us" (workers) and a "them" (Business owners).

You ask most successful business owners and they will acknowledge they didn't get their on their own. Name me a successful business me that has no customers, no mentors, no partners and no employees. And of course anyone with common sense knows they benefit from roads and bridges as well as a multitude of other services such as Fire protection.

But those same successful business owners will also likely tell you they have worked insane hours, often many years under high stress with little or no pay, risking everything they and their family has. And that's why the way the President said what he said came across as very demeaning of the sacrifices they made (which were admittedly made by their own volition).

They didn't deserve to get lectured by the President on something 99% of them already know or the hard work most put in implicitly demeaned, whatever his intentions were.

Disappointing as I thought he was smarter than that.

but what you can do. he's a politician , just like the rest.

#186 Posted by FiestaUnicorn (1577 posts) -

How is this thread still going. What he said was completely non controversial. Romney said the same thing about the olympic athletes when he was running the olympics. Then again republicans are generally fine with the things they say themselves until Obama agrees with them... over and over again.

#187 Posted by Mageman (351 posts) -

Progressive tax may sound very good in theory but it is way easier to find loopholes and exploit it in practice.

#188 Posted by Kyodra (138 posts) -

I'm definitely happy I don't live in the US, politically there seems to just be two extremes with not much middle ground. Some accuse Obama about being a socialist without understanding what they're talking about, and taking things out of context (which happens from both sides). I live in a country with one of the highest tax rates in the world, people generally feel safe and happy. There is very little corruption. We have a coalition government consisting of six different parties (out of nine in total in the parliament), forces them to work together and make compromises rather than become extreme in their views. Seems to be working very well. No place is perfect of course, but I just wish people especially in the US would try and work together more and find the middle ground.

#189 Posted by depecheload (495 posts) -

@Kyodra said:

I'm definitely happy I don't live in the US, politically there seems to just be two extremes with not much middle ground. Some accuse Obama about being a socialist without understanding what they're talking about, and taking things out of context (which happens from both sides). I live in a country with one of the highest tax rates in the world, people generally feel safe and happy. There is very little corruption. We have a coalition government consisting of six different parties (out of nine in total in the parliament), forces them to work together and make compromises rather than become extreme in their views. Seems to be working very well. No place is perfect of course, but I just wish people especially in the US would try and work together more and find the middle ground.

It's all fucking broken. This country is becoming more and more shit every year.

#190 Posted by s10129107 (1179 posts) -

because he definitely wasnt talking about THE ROADS AND BRIDGES. I'm not a lib, I don't know whether or not i'm going to vote for Obama, but i'm not going to listen to something taken out of context and pretend it means something else.

#191 Posted by Matterless (326 posts) -

The title of this thread is so misleading. The "that" the President was referring to related back to infrastructure, not individual businesses.